@@QuestionableObject Ah wait, never mind my information was outdated. They previously stated they didn't believe in selling DLC or shipping an incomplete game with BG3, but have since changed their minds on that, wanting to do more. So there is hope.
I like that bit about "you've butchered so many in the name of your father, but this one you stole from him. It's only for you." This act is basically the absolute exercise of will.
I love how Withers/Jergal genuinely didn't expect to see Tav/Durge's soul in the Fugue Plane, given the Illithid thing. To see something new and interesting after all these millenia? Ohoho, now THIS is fun.
It makes sense and with all things changing, why Jergal would return- Jergal left and gave up his dominion because he was tired and felt there was nothing new, but now? Something changed BEYOND death. Even death is now not immutable- Why would the Lord of Death not seek to return?
Ignoring the honor (because that's certain like you said), but what is the significance? He's not one of the mortals-turned-gods; he's older than old and mightier than might. What does it mean when what is essentially a force of nature singles out a mortal and calls them "friend"?
This is interesting because normally Illithid souls are most likely the tadpoles and not the hosts. But it seems like Jergal is implying that Tav's soul stayed intact during the transformation somehow as he recognizes Tav for who he is. Edit: I know this is Durge but the ending changes little whether it's Tav or Durge. They both get this. That's my one gripe with the whole Tav/Durge thing is the only difference between them is Durge has a backstory and fits more into the game while Tav is a random.
@@AikoSeayea it could be something unique with Tav’s transformation in some conditions like -Orpheus able to preserve their soul -If you side with the emperor the Astral tadpole has some special property -Plain ol’ protagonist plot armor
Imagine being Bhaal, making your new favorite child your chosen, and then they directly ruin your plans and then kill themselves so you can't puppet them in the mortal plain. This is why we disrespect the Dead Three, everyone
And then withers shows up, shames them and calls out how stupid their plan was and basically dismisses all 3 of them as no longer a threat or worth paying attention to. As far as I'm concerned they are now truly the dead 3 because I'd give up on life after that century plus beat down from my own kids and the OG Death god
I love Withers. Jergal seems to be someone who is tired of the old same shit never changing. And when he finds something that breaks the mold of previous laws of nature, he is... delighted. I think he out of most old gods desire change the most. And I do believe he does things to spite Ao, more than any other god dares to. Who knows, maybe BG3 interpretation of the world might be a cure for the stagnancy that has taken over forgotten realms and sword coast. It will be canon in one way or another after all.
Jergal was once the God of death, tiranny and murder, and he was probably the strongest God. He literally gift his portfolio to Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul after a game of scissors, paper and rock because he was bored of being this powerful
@@pierluigiruotolo6548 He also was and is the God of Doing All The Paperwork so I think maybe that had a lot to do with it. The Dead 3 ran off with the powers and then didn't do any of the admin work while Jergal took a vacation and now he has to spend the rest of forever cleaning up their messes. Like, who heard of a True Evil entity not doing paperwork?? Bullocks
@@Kat-xy7fm Jergal is like the old dude that needs a break, left the key with three people (off the street) whom he thought would be more responsible, only to be very disappointed and more than a little miff when he realised that these three are not the heroes but the stooges.
Thanks for telling me that I killed myself for nothing Withers. This is exacly why I choose to die and here your saying that I was still myself despite becoming illithid
Yes, although maybe because you killed yourself before your soul finished "ebbing away." And maybe that's why he said you were "flickering." You could have caught it just in time?
1:45-2:19 You can hear a whole chorus of positive emotions behind his reserved yet eloquent words… Surprise, joy, curiosity, relief… All because that such a miracle has happened at all, and doubly so that it has for a close friend of his.
You gotta love Withers. He's basically like an old RPG player who retcons deaths he doesn't like. XD But it would be pretty cool if this was the canon ending. The ultimate sacrifice twice over, defying death and gods and demons alike, defying the nature of a flayer, and becoming more in the grand fabric of fate along side a man so bemused by your rebellious (if suicidal) nature.
He's the OG god of Death, basically the Grim Reaper. The other Three took over because he stopped caring about his job I think lol, still extremely powerful because I think he has all the power he had as a God
@@rockythesnailracechampion7144 Also, Withers is delightfully petty. If you show up in the epilogue and attack your former companions, he gets upset at you for ruining his party and he therefore banishes you to the shadow realms. It makes sense he does things such as meddling in mortal affairs out of spite as much as he is able to.
My guess is that the preservation of the soul has something to do with using the astral tadpole to transform, as well as the soul being particularly powerful.
A mortal soul is no greater or stronger than the other, no matter whose it is. They all carry the same value on the cosmological scale in this setting.
@@Freekymoho dude is bullshitting. souls indeed change between size or power. and it depends on their level. not just class level either, but their racial levels and everything. my source; most of the dnd books that explain creation of outsiders like fiend folio. stronger outsiders, say like glabrezu... or balor... or planetar angels, made by multiple souls fusing together... OR very rarely one single very powerful mortal turning into it by own. its explained, the fusing souls level must be equal or greater then the outsider they are fusing into. so... a level 20 adventurer can become a balor by itself. but otherwise, 20 seperate level 1 commoner (classic citizen types) souls must merge to become one.
But the Dark Urge isn't mortal in the strictest sense of the word. Like Gorion's Ward they are a fragment of Bhaal's divine essence. So it might be that the Bhaalspawn's soul is simply too enduring for the transformation to nullify.
@@Mister-Thirteentechnically all bhaals children would be in that weird category of quasi divine. Not a demigod but in that ill defined just under with saints and other divine weirdness. 😅
If True Resurrection were cast on the squiddified Tav, or perhaps a piece of Tav that never got squiddified, would Tav come back un-squiddified? After all, the tadpole is not a natural part of Tav - but it does alter Tav at a genetic level (I think?).
I believe so. True Resurrection only needs a piece of the original person and they’ll be returned fully. If you also wear the Ring of Mind Shielding that gets given to you by Omeluum, your soul will be stored into that upon transformation. But it won’t do much sitting in there. Clone and Reincarnation would also work.
@@ThisIsAHandleOrSomething True Resurrection only needs the person's name to be said... and a diamond worth 25,000 gold. Resurrection requires a body part, though.
Yes. Despite what the game says, ceremorphosis doesn't destroy the original soul. It still goes on to the outer planes to the afterlives. If one uses True Resurrection, Wish, or Miracle and focuses on the person before ceremorphosis, and the soul is willing to return, the deceased can return.
This is the origin story of one of my player characters. An Ullitharid looking to overthrow its Elder Brain leader contacted a Hag to look into the Elder Brain's past self, then performed a cursed Ritual to resurrect the Elder Brain's former self in the hopes that the Elder Brain would cease to exist, it did not work, and now the Elder Brain and who they were in life exist at the same time.
There use to be a distinction between the "spirit" and the "soul" in older d&d lore and idk if the writers at larian were aware. Ironically the whole mind flayers losing their soul would imply the spirit remains since that tends to house your memory and lifeforce, wheras the soul is a combination of your personality, identity and destiny from an astral/divine sense. I really wish wotc or the greater realms cannon would reincorporate that lore (beyond some implications with some things in ravenloft because of curse of strahd) because it'd be so on point for explaining this.
Tried this ending and for some reason my romanced Karlach just stood silently in the background, not saying a word when I pulled the knife out. All I got was a "what are you doing?!" from Shadowheart. The scene where Karlach's ending malfunctions then proceeded to play and she just evaporated without even mentioning my character, and without Wyll suggesting she return to Avernus. It was a strange series of events.
Same thing happened to me, but my sweetheart Shadowheart stood silently by while Gale shouted out for me to stop. I felt a lot closer to Gale after that.
I think the companion shouting "stop!" is chosen randomly. Similarly to how multiple characters can comment on Astarion fleeing from the Sun, but only one is shown at a time.
I know Withers can more than likely snap his fingers and fix us with this ending because he's heavily implied to be Jergal but anyone else still mad at Elminster for not even offering to help? Dude literally hangs around the camp come act 3 but I can't ask the Wizard Supreme of the Forgotten Realms for a wish spell
@@kingofgrim4761 he even melts into a puddle of water when you kill him, which is in line with the 5e simulacrum spell creating a copy of someone out of ice. the elminster you see in game is a simulacrum spell cast by a really powerful wizard (so, elminster himself probably) due to the simulacrum being unrecognizable from him and being really powerful. the simulacrum would also be significantly weaker than himself. which also means that elminster controlled his icy simulacrum to eat your cheese when you invite him to camp. maybe he did it just so that gale would think he is actually there personally on behalf of mystra since yknow it would be nice to tell someone to kill themselves in person at least, and gale would get suspicious if he didn't lunge at your cheese. also, in 5e, casting wish to do anything except duplicate lower level spells has a 33% chance of leaving you unable to ever cast wish again, which is funny if you think about vlaakith getting so mad when you disrespect her that she'd risk never being able to wish again just to do a show of power in front of someone that they're killing anyway. it's also kinda sad that elminster would rather sacrifice gale than risk himself losing the ability to wish. or maybe mystra just doesn't want him to because she's mad at gale. it's also entirely possible that mystra herself cast the simulacrum of elminster in order to deliver the message to gale from a friendly face thinking he might be less likely to agree if she came to him in person, and made him eat your cheese since that's what she thinks elminster would do. there's nothing in the game that would indicate elminster's simulacrum to be created by elminster himself, and perhaps he'd be honest and say that it is a simulacrum if it was himself speaking through it.
The issue with casting Wish on the Orb is that it directly *absorbs* magic. That's why Gale stops needing to eat enchanted artifacts - because Mystra starts feeding it herself. I'd imagine that if the Orb is capable of eating raw magic, it's likely capable of eating a Wish spell's effects too.
Withers really is a true friend to the players always greeting us in the hero endings as a friend even if durge decides to let himself fall to madness he just shows up at the prison cell and says “rest well my friend” and he’s just genuinely happy when we go down the good path and always comforts us at the end of our journeys
Either that or true res is gonna occur, which I’d prefer but would kinda neg the importance of the choice to become illithid to keep Orpheus alive as a rebel. Oh well, idc so long as I keep shadowbae and our house full of animals
I'm glad to see there's a means by which Orpheus and Lae'zel can stand together against Vlaakith. Probably going to take this ending should I do a Durge ending. Shame you won't be there for the epilogue...
@@destherThat's the big takeaway imo, only reason you get to go to the Fugue Plane is that you died before your last remnants of self were dissolved. If you kept going you would no longer be you
Karlach is implied to be gone. I forget the term but theirs a quirk of some Mind Flayers that when the turn they retain some part of their host, memories, habits, small quirks. They’re treated like freaks by other Ilithid because they failed to fully consume them. When you encounter “karlach” her emotions are almost gone, she has only the barest memories of what she liked before she turned. She’s unlike your or the Emperor who managed to overpower the Tadpole entirely even after transforming. It’s not like a vampire where it’s functionally the same person, for Mind Flayers it’s the Tadpole piloting the body and your mind was consumed. So for The Emperor to not just remember his life but to remain in complete control just like you a miracle only Withers can truly appreciate.
Thank you for sharing this. I haven’t explored this path in the game and probably never will. But it’s enlightening to see that despite all that’s been said and “known,” the choices the main character makes strongly influence what the reality is in the end. I often think of the Emperor in this light. Withers also recognized who he really was and, at least partially, is. The path that shows him snapping and dropping any pretense when pressed in the main character’s dream visits I think is just one possible path for his reality. I think people exploring this path believe this is what is “really” going on. However, the game shows us that the choices we make can significantly impact who other characters turn out to be. Astarian is probably the best example of this. A non-ascended version is grateful for your intervention, after the fact. And if the relationship is nurtured (romantic or not), the being he turns out to be by the time of the reunion is the polar opposite of the ascended version. In the same way, I think “playing along” with the Emperor results in him really being an illithid wholly bent on obtaining his freedom. That’s not to say he doesn’t generally operate as a morality free zone. Astarian’s example, amongst others, has convinced me, that not even the Emperor’s character is written in stone.
“Death itself has many byways, and thou might yet have a new and different role to play.” Translation: “That was cute but we have DLC forthcoming. Take your get-out-jail-free card. Do not return to Start.”
Larian cancelled the DLC, they said they'll move back to some other RPG so most likely Divinity 3. Well,whatever they cook, if they crowdfund it I'll drop a penny.
@@mareczek00713 "Cancelled", they already said pre release that they don't really do DLC, and their previous games didn't have any besides definitive editions...
@@pinnacleevolution1634 "Don't really do" is not "they do not", there were discussions hinted at during interviews. Again, it's their decision and game is awesome as it is now, but a bit of shame those characters likely won't return.
@@mareczek00713 What dramabait youtuber gave you this opinion? Larian was never ambiguous about its DLC policy here. They specifically and explicitly noted, very early on, that they were *considering* making DLC but that it was highly unlikely for two principle reasons: 1. Difficulty in balancing past the 12th level in DnD 5E. I can assure you that in tabletop, campaigns are notorious for ripping apart at the seams when a campaign runs past 12th level. A video game that has a philosophy of faithfully recreating fifth-edition DND would have a lot of trouble not just *balancing* but also even simply *incorporating* the implications of many seventh+ level spells. Including a little spell called Wish. 2. It is literally something they don't ever do. Larian has always preferred to make a finished game, maintain it for a few years, then move on to the next. They're just old school like that. The popularity of BG3 did prompt reason to *discuss* shifting direction in policy, but that doesn't indicate an actual shift in policy.
I love how Withers/Jergal is genuinely excited that something he didn't expect or believe was possible has just happened. The guy is older then life itself (being the "End Of All Things" not just living things) and yet he still enjoys seeing things that surprise him and that he never expected. Wholesome Death God moment. Well, former Death God. On his retirement trip across the multiverse now.
I am convinced some of the group call him Granpappy. Karlach learns about her parents living a restful live in what waits beyond, shadowheart learns that her family is under Selune's protection and safe
Interesting, maybe the "soul ebbing away" was flavour, maybe it's simpler than that and retaining your soul is just a question of willpower / being free from mind control. (Omeluun being an individual due to his arcane affinity, Balduran due to his willpower and Karlach due to being a good person who merely wished to live and only slay demons and devils along with those who serve them.) Nothing is absolute in DnD anyway, bypassing a tadpole's effect is rather easy in a campaign (Killing your companion for days until the body decays with the tadpole then casting true rez, true polymorphing yourself into a tree then have a companion do it the opposite way. Even having your brain destroyed and using one of the healing spell able to reform it) If you get to a point where you can use wish just use it to ask "I want my soul to override the tadpole" thus becoming the tadpole yourself and consuming your own brain to transform, etc. It seems BG3 simply goes the "willpower" route which is nice knowing that only Tav is mentionned to feel their soul "ebbing away". But Tav is your character meaning having willpower or not is your choice to make, not the reality of the game's world. And it is reflected by the choices given to you in the ending (Living and letting yourself be consumed by your mindflayer's nature. Retaining your true self and continue to live, locking yourself away or destroying yourself)
Lol we had to perform brain surgery to get it done, so mostly the “destroy brain and reform it” approach you mentioned but with plenty of skill challenges. Idk if we had 9th level spells yet.
"Awesome!... So does that mean i can meet uncle Kelemvor?" "... He's busy right now..." "... Is there a mod-..." "-yes I'm sure the fugue plane mod is being worked on."
@@leonardorossi998no, his personality was not intact. Before he was the heroic and courageous baldurian, then he became the deceitful and insidious emperor. As soon as he turned he murdered and lobotomized his closest friends without a second thought
@@burgertime6372 What I mean was that his behavior was somewhat emotional for a mind flayer. Even compared to special ones, like Omeluum for example, or even your companions turning into Mind Flayers. Now, it might be a suspicion, but could it be that Balduran wasn't that great of a person in life as well? After all, most of his existence seems to be shrouded in legend. And we don't know who built Grimrock exactly and how much it was in line with Balduran's actual personality.
@@leonardorossi998 extremely unlikely. Balduran was a very close friend to a bronze dragon. A type of dragon that is naturally lawful good and “possess a strong sense of justice and do not tolerate any form of cruelty”.
@@burgertime6372 Well, you can be a prick without being cruel. Just so we are clear: I don't think The Emperor is necessarily evil. He doesn't seem to be ready to do everything for his own gain though. Still, he can be not evil and still be manipulative and self serving. Aka a prick. :P I mean, other Illithid will be cold and calculating, sure. But they won't try to seduce you, or declare themselves your knight in shining armor.
This is how my first playthrough went, but after experimenting with mods for a bit my save got deleted. thanks for posting, i wouldn't be able to see the epilogue otherwise.
so Illithids *sometimes* have souls... I wonder how rare of an occurrence that is if even withers is surprised to see it happen... I know ceremorphs have souls because they are still themselves and still think and act the way they normally would... and "the emperor" claims to have his original memories suggesting his soul wasn't completely destroyed by the process... imagine there are actually thousands of Illithids with souls it's just that Withers somehow missed them or he was bullshitting to make it so we don't feel bad about killing them
Nah, he is too lazy. Jaheira/Halsin are only one level away from being able to cast "Reincarnate", though, and since your soul is still yours, it'll totally work. Might get a body of a different race/sex than originally, but hey, at least won't be limited to brain diet! Though I love how Shadowheart tells us that we gained weight and you can reply that giiiirl, brains are very lean, all keto, so stop your BS.
Each prelude seem to show there is more coming to the Baldur's Gate serie. I start to think that Larian seem to have get their hand with a new contract for the serie.
It's kinda weird that they say Illithid don't have souls when they have a god and a plane for said god where they go after they die. That kinda requires a soul.
Illithid are described as having ...not a soul but like something akin to one still. More alien in nature. But tav/durge still retains their more planar aligned soul of sorts
This is by far the most epic journey storyline for the main PC. Born of evil blood, denies it > gets killed by bhaal > ressurected by withers to be a hero > sacrifices himself again for the best of the world by becoming Illithid > kills himself for being illithid > gets ressurected into some kind of God angel being for the god of death. Epic.
I can assure you this happened too if you're not playing Dark Urge. Honestly it's pretty delightful to see at least 1 person appreciate your choice to off yourself.
Surely the tadpole wouldnt be able to turn the dark urge into an ilithid considering the dark urge is derived from the literal piece of flesh of Bhaal who is a god.
Astarion: What are you doing?! Stop it! Durge: I have become a monster that needs to feed on others to survive. I feel the urge to feed on others. Thus for the greater good, I have decided to slay myself. Astarion: ... Astarion: You know I am a vampire right? Durge: You are a vampire?! *Astarion facepalms*
Illithid typically have no soul after becoming one. They have... something else. Tied to the primordial energies of chaos. Something that should not have meaning to a divinity of this realm. But Withers finds it fascinating that Tav as they are DOES have something he can grasp, albeit, something unfamiliar to them. Meaning his apocryphal soul has perhaps been changed but has not been extinguished due to the unique process with which they became Illithid?
@@proudlarry8225 Almost all deities live in planes different from their flock. Ilsensine's realm, the Caverns of Thought, is in the Outlands (along with the Marketplace Eternal, Waukeen's domain), and Maanzecorian's domain, Rictus, is in Gehenna (the same plane as Auril, Bhaal and Velsharoon). They're not the only ones, for the record. The Blood Queen of the aboleths lives in Minauros, Baator, and the Great Mother and Gzemnid of the beholders dell in the Abyss and the Outlands respectively.
@@LordMortaniusOf course, but most of them in this setting were originally from the material plane and ascended. Fiends notwithstanding... like I myself highly doubt Asmodeus was ever not a devil so I can't claim all of them are ascendant. It's just that the plane of Chaos is something the current pantheon all kinda hate, even the gods who are chaotic in nature don't like that place! It's not the same as being chaotic, being FROM chaos.
@@proudlarry8225 It's heavily unlikely that Ilsensine was a mortal (for that matter, illithids are natives to the Material Plane; they originated from the future and went back in time). The Great Mother and Gzemnid were definitely not mortals. The Blood Queen, however, is from the Far Realm.
Why's everyone saying withers is jergal? Isn't he just working for him? When awaked, withers says something like "ah, you're here, just like he said you would be. Right as always". Is that person he's referring to not jergal??
@@noblesseoblige319 in the official concept art, he's referenced as Jergal, in data mined stuff there was info about him being compelled by Helm to aid the party as penance (the person he refers to at the start when you meet him is probably Helm, going off with this) and his model is called JergalAvatar.
theyre still too far away from the origin point, the floating point round up is way too noticeable also the "friends" just standing and watching, youd think theyd be running around in panic
Idk if it would not have been more powerful to have the PC actually become a "proper" mindflayer instead of just having them get yet another special protagonist treatment
This is what i did after i went through the trouble of saving orpheus just to watch the prince ending, just for him to be yeeted in the brain fight. Honor mode, so no reload so i said f u game.
Dont i feel special. This is the ending i got in my first run. I did everything I could to fight my urge and protect everyone that I loved but in the end I still became a monster. I even knew i didn't have a soul anymore but i didn't trust my squid self to not hurt anyone so I ended myself. My only regret is that i wasnt there for karlack's final moment
Ok I just don't understand what an ilithid is. Do they have souls or not? Are souls not really the essence of someone in the BG universe? Is Withers full of shit about Ilithids? Is this really Tav's soul making decisions? Just a copy of Tav's personality like an ai program running on autopilot?
The lore in-game and outside never fully 100% explains it, but there are theories that your soul is still yours, it's just that slowly with time it shapes into something else. Like, it's still you, but your soul (even Withers says so in Act 2) is non-apostolic aka useless to the divine pantheon. So it's not that they are souless, just that they are souless if you're a god because they have no use for you anymore. However, as everything involving illithids, it's quite ambiguous because then the DM can explain it however they want if they wish to do so
@@BattyPrincess except that Durge's soul is still apostolic even as a illithid, because Bhaal can still claim it in "bad" ending. Squid Gale's soul is apostolic as Mystra still recognizes him as her Chosen. So Tav's and Karlach's souls are probably apostolic too.
@@sunnyhill7919 I don't take that as an "except", just that the gods are so fickle they wouldn't touch a mind flayer's soul unless it serves them or they have a personal investment in them. Still, it's pretty nice of Mystra to still recognize Gale as Gale after everything the poor guy goes through in the game