Given that Varys regarded him as a foe he enjoyed rather than feared, I'd put the Spider ahead. Especially given how few times Varys was caught off-guard by something compared to the times Petyr was 🤔
I think that's definitely the case for them as players of the game of thrones Jeremy my good man. I think as spymasters though its impressive how Littlefinger has managed to beat Varys to the punch a few times due to his willingness to be a little more proactive at the cost of security. Thanks for watching as always matey, we'll get you over to discord one day 😂 Liam
The thing is in the Books Varys has been trying to figure out what Littlefinger wants and has come out short while Littlefinger doesn't care enough about Varys' plans to try. Considering that Varys wanted Ned alive and Littlefinger wanted him dead. I think Littlefinger has the edge.
@@George-Hawthorne While Littlefinger surely wanted Ned dead, I don't think he wanted it to go that way and definitely not then and there. But Ned forced his hand by insisting Stannis be the next king. In which case Littlefinger would get absolutely nothing for his help. On top of that, Stannis wouldn't have stood for his business practices or brothels all together. Stannis becoming king hurts Lingerfinger in many ways. While he got a castle from the Lannisters. Makes it an easy choice. I just don't think he betrayed Ned just bc he "wanted him dead". He stood to gain from betraying him
@@chrisjolly4880 No I'm certain that it was him that convinced Joffrey to execute him. After all Ned's dead ensured that the war was a devastating as it was. And with everybody that could be a threat to him too busy fighting each other he is able to climb the ladder and now he is in a rather secure position.
Lol, I know I'm bringing up the forbidden season, but I recall a small moment between Varys and Tyrion. "What does that scroll say?" "It's a sealed, confidential letter to [Jon Snow]." "So... what does it say?" "....nothing good."
Thats how you know Varys is a badass when it comes to spy craft. Genuinely a good character for prequel coverage in all honesty. Thanks for watching matey! Liam
Varys also has the huge disadvantage of being the official spymaster. He is called the spider, and people know to be cautious around him. I don't think anyone really knows how expansive little fingers ring is. They know he is a cunning business man and knows things. But I imagine not being a known spy helps more than it limits him. You giving up something when getting help from the master of coin seems a lot less risky than getting something from the master of spies.
Its definitely a boon to Littlefingers game, same with his spies, way less suspicious than mute children scurrying through tunnels 😂 thanks for watching Jake! Liam
Petyr is more of an extremely skilled manipulator and liar who have people close to him who can help him achieve his goals, where Varys is more of an actual spy with an entire spy network across Westeros and Essos. I’d say in this situation Varys is a better spy
I definitely think there is the argument to be made for Varys, he's definitely more professional and has a larger network along with being a better spy personally. But I wouldn't write off Littlefingers network, he's got eyes and ears in all levels of society reporting to him. Thanks for watching my salty friend! Liam
I feel saying Varys only has is little birds isn't fair. We know he had Jorah spying on Danny for him. I feel that is enough to say he most likely has other spys who aren't little boys out there than just Jorah
Remember your "Kingdom under Littlefinger" vid? What if he and Varys found a compromise and joined forces? How formidable would their combined spy network be?
I think they would take over the world not just westeros if they put their heads together my friend, they are lethal on their own! Thanks for watching matey! Liam
We were being sarcastic Connor good buddy! Varys took it by such a laughable margin that we thought people would just get we were taking the micky 😂 our bad my friend! Thanks for watching! Liam
Varys honestly feels omniscient sometimes in the books. I was so confused how he knew the letter Tyrion gave to Pycelle when he was trying to find out who was Cersi's informant.
Also confused why upon learning that Varys knows about his talk with Grand Maester, Tyrion still felt confident about his test being capable of screening Varys.
Littlefinger is impressive to even rival Varys, given that he's ostensibly minister of coin, having arrived on the King's Landing scene decades after Varys did and thus has had far less time to cultivate his powerbase. All that being said...there's a reason Varys is the standard to which all spymasters must ultimately be measured against.
I think we have to give it to varys just off the fact that he's working with a plan and has to keep dealing with random occurrences that speed up slow down or even stop his plans. meanwhile little finger doesn't have a plan he just does whatever he wants with the goal of using the chaos to his benefit. for example because littlefinger doesn't;t care about anything he can just leave anywhere in chaos without caring, meanwhile varys is shackled to kingslanding even when he's being hunted as a traitor because he needs to be there for his plans to succeed. in short littlefinger is plating with all the agency and freedom meanwhile varys has to deal with everything with in a time constraint and he's still surfing on Littlefinger.
Why didn't Tywin Lannister try to raise Joffrey himself if he was so important to tywins plan? And frankly, Rob Starks entire rebellion could have been avoided if Tywin just said sorry and sent the stark girls home. I know it's Tywin and he'd never do that. But man, for someone who is so smart, Tywin Sucks at diplomacy.
Well, I think, Tywin would not have the power nor reason to get Joffrey as his protegé. Back then Robert was still in charge, and he was backed by 4 of the 7 kingdoms, not counting the Westerlands. And he would have wanted his heir at his side, well, in the same city at least. I don't think sending his eldest son to the other side of the continent was ever an option for him. Tywin would have needed a very, very good reason to become his guardian. I can think of none.
I think the real difference between the two and why I'd also agree Littlefinger is the better spy is explained in the "chaos is a ladder" scene. While Varys is ruthless and will do some pretty despicable things to achieve his goals, he still has SOME moral scruples that he adheres to. His goals are, largely, good-natured, and he plays a patient game to make sure he's dotting his Is and crossing his Ts and not doing anything to truly make things worse. Littlefinger, on the other hand, is a complete sociopath that will literally delve the world into a Yugoslav style civil war if it meant getting a promotion. Theres no limit to what he's willing to do, and his MO of creating chaos to advance his personal position makes him much more unpredictable.
Haha thanks matey! Yeah it's actually more of a plot hole than anything. There aren't a bunch of mute adults knocking around the realm, which there should be if Varys has as many ears as its suspected he does, leaving fans to fill in the gap with the most logical explanation when considering how messed up Westeros is 😂 thanks for watching as always matey!
Nice suggestion GameBawesome 👌 ill definitely add it to the list, hoping we get to see Larys as a greenseer confirmed that could make things very interesting! Thanks for watching as always matey! Liam
I think that's why Littlefinger shouldn't be underestimated, sure he's less of a pro than Varys but its only more helpful in making him unassuming. Same with his Spies they all do other jobs making them far less suspicious. Thanks for watching my vinger soaked grace! Liam
In the show Littlefinger exposes Ros as a double agent working for Varys (and lets Joffrey use her as target practice). This might show Varys’s limitations when dealing with non child spies and/or show that Littlefinger has decent security in his spy ring if he detected a double agent.
I think there's a very useful point to make about their counterspying skills. In other words, how well do they handle others (and in this case, the other) spying on them? Admittedly Littlefinger's foremost example of it is show-only, but when Varys recruited Ros to spy on him, he was able to pretty quickly figure her out and get rid of her before she could do any more damage. I don't think we've ever seen Varys engage in any counterintelligence in either form of the story, so his level of skill at it is completely unknown, but it's a very important aspect
Littlefinger is definitely agile and nimble in the books. He tosses the famed dagger end over end catching it, and deftly avoids a bowl of porridge thrown by sweetrobin.
Do you think the last category could go to Varys when his goal is realized? If the invasion is successful Varys will be the only one of them to put a king on the throne. Also Varys has survived and thrived in four separate political factions (Mad King, Bobby B, Lannisters, and the Targaryen Reboot)
I think it will depend on how the Faegon invasion pans out in all honesty and how Faegon decides to reward Varys. What lost Varys the round was his lack of political resources outside of his position as master of whispers. If Faegon gives him some fancy new position and some holdings and titles, he'd probably have more of a case. Thanks for watching Benjamin! Liam
Littlefinger was a schemer that acted out of ambition and personal emotions. Varys had magic (at least in the form of allies/connections), a transcontinental spy network, and no D. Completely different level. Bloodraven however, that's another level yet again.
You appear to believe Varis has no other spys than his little birds , Varis assign all data to his birds to keep to others secret but jonas is not a boy or mute so there are known examples.
No we don't Alan my friend, we even said in the video, its possible he employs other people to spy for him, but we know his most predominant source of spies is the little birds. Thanks for watching! Liam
14:29 wait, who's to say Varys kills off his little birds when they reach maturity? there's no reason they cant still surve a purpose - say, raise new little birds. Besides, their loyalty is already as guaranteed as could be
Its just fan speculation my friend. The evidence to back it up comes from the lack of abundance of adult mute boys in the realms. There should be loads of them knocking around and there just isn't. In all reality its just one of those rare plot holes that has yet to be filled in. But westeros being westeros fans turn to the darkest logical potenial explanation over the nice kind one 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
I’d say Varys he has them all over the world of game of thrones and a lot of them are very influential. Little finger has his eyes set on the 7 kingdoms and everything going on there which is more of a hindrance in this match up. Also can you do a match up of if there was a free for all of all the houses who would come out of the destruction.
And I have another question on Tywin. He only cares about benefiting the Lannister name right? So.... Why not instead of marrying Cersei to Robert Baratheon. Marry her to the Tyrells and fuse the families together, or marry to the starks? I know Tywin tried in show but I mean.... Do it when Cersei is young and hasn't committed twincest yet. If the Tyrells and Lannisters were one house that would be a very great prize for house Lannister.
Keep in mind that Varys has been playing the game of thrones longer than little finger so he has more experience. Though spy wise Varys is an internet hacker who has no problem spending a whole year stealing your identity. While little finger could easily fit as a spy in a James Bond movie.
Honestly to be fair Varys had a lot more time to play then little finger. If little finger had the same amount of time as Varys I'm pretty sure Varys would have everything he wants by now
I like the fact that Varys kept Little finger around so he knew what was going on, but he actually respected Tyrion, he doesn’t talk to Baelish as an equal, but he does with Tyrion, at least in the books
Little finger caused many wars and deaths, Varys wrote a few letters and got burned at the stake, little finger was killed by Arya, but he made so many effective moves first
13:00 OH MY GOOOOD!!! LMAO "Before ring ring became scroll scroll..." Jesus Christ. 14:50 You're a glutton for punishment. You KNOW I wasn't gonna let that one slide.
These young kids these days with their weird clothes and their music 👨🦳 Haha I'm perpetually prepared now for you mate 🤣 Thanks for watching as always! Liam
I think it's hard to compare their spy networks since they serve a completely different purpose. Varys' birds have a lot bigger reach and will provide him with information all over the place. It is serving Varys but Varys ultimately uses them as information for someone else, to make that other person with power never be surprised and never be on the back foot, ready to exploit weakness. He himself doesn't wield political power but Aegon does. And I think in large parts due to Varys and his little birds he will take King's Landing from Cersei in TWoW. Varys is also very much playing the long game, waiting for Aegon to come of age. Littlefingers spies on the other hand only serve Littlefinger and themselves. They are by nature also selfish and ambitious just like Littlefinger himself and might burn him at any moment. They are however more powerful and proactive. But they also only work where Littlefinger wants them to. If a threat emerges from a point Littlefinger doesn't expect he's very much on the back foot. For example, Aegon's conquest of King's Landing might fuck over his plans outside of the vale significantly cause that's a hard one to see coming. Littlefinger is an opportunist through and through to the point where he will also create his own opportunities for himself but I think his constantly play with fire will eventually get him burned. Varys is playing the far safer game
If you are a king, Varys is a better choice for spymaster, specifically because he'd be easier to extract if necessary. And, if they were to have a head to head matchup, Varys would have one advantage (or lack of hindrance) that would cost Littlefinger has a dick. And Littlefinger does let it affect his decisions. Varys could easily set a trap with Sansa as bait, and Littlefinger ends up dead.
Personally Little finger has rapidly become my favorite character. He’s not a good man but he’s by far the most entertaining for me to read/watch and I’m always interested in seeing what he’s scheming. Varys is certainly a spider, the master of whisperers; everyone knows what he is before they even see him, they know who they are dealing with without even knowing him. Petyr on the other hand is the devil, people trust him, they give him everything on the promises spoken by a forked tongue. I’m my opinion I’m far more terrified of Petyr, he’ll have you calling him friend before you even feel the dagger in your back.
See i think a good VS episode would be who is the better commander Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon (And no i'm not just suggesting this to torture Liam when he realises and had to admit the Norths true king beats his beloved manis). Both men have solid combat records Robb won every battle and Stannis fought in some of the worst battles in recent Westero history, they both have had to make do with army's at less then ideal sizes, Robb's army was way under strength at the start of his campagin and he was able to keep going when he lost the Karstarks and Stannis has had to make do with a tiny army most recently in the books, they are also both willing to lead from the front. Also they are able to inspire loyalty in their own men like Stannis at Storms End and loyalty people like Davos have for Stannis. Robb is also able to inspire loyalty in his own men like how he was able to get the Great Jon to back down and i think this one says a lot about Robbs ability to inspire, Perwyn Frey and Olyvar Frey serves as Robbs personal guard and squire and at no point does Walder try and get them to attack him or are they involved in the Red Wedding which means the rest of the Freys must have seen them as friends to Robb at the least and saw them as unreliable to them and reliable to Robb which given that house is frankly a feat for the gods. But they both have flaws Stannis has no love from the nobles meaning his army is always on the back foot and while he is able to inspire loyalty in his foot sloggers the Northmen in his army marching to Winterfel right now are more marching to save Arrya (Jane) and kill the Bolton for what they did to the Starks then any love for Stannis. Robb is too stuck in his honourable ways and while he was able to recover from some of these mistakes he does make so blunders that could have bitten him badly, like his failure to inform Edmure about the plan for the Mountian and Robb was putting way to much trust into the Freys and Boltons way to much.
To be honest, I would reverse the results of this video and the "Best Player" video. Littlefinger is the lesser Spymaster, whilst being the better player of the game. I will also note I have a massive bias against Littlefinger as one of the most detestable people in the books/show (Yes Ramsey and the Mountain are worse but I detest Littlefinger). Any character who will deliberately ruin the nation for their own enrichment is a monster and he is probably responsible for as many deaths as anyone else in the whole AOIAF setting. I do hate him. (For the record the only character I despise more irrationally is Renly "never did anything right in his life" Baratheon). Still I hope I make sense. Amongst other things, one of the main differences between the 2 is that they are NOT playing the same game. Littlefinger is playing the game of "advancing my interests at all costs and the devil take the hindmost" approach. He sets up his resources in order to do this and so focuses on getting in with the nobles and utterly f******** up the finances of the realm to enrich himself. He is trying to accrue personal power and that is what he gains. I also think you overrate the access his brothels give him as they are for the most part a pretty passive sort of information gathering too. If the right people don't show up then he cannot get access to them that way. His merchants are a more active source of data but unless they are actively seeking things for him then they are also just another passive means of passing information on. Varys is scheming to a) keep the situation at a nice even boil whilst he gets Aegon into position, and b) gather information from a wide variety of sources in order to act when the moment is right. He is not trying to get power for himself and so he doesn't and this means he will not make enemies in the same way that Littlefinger does once he starts to gain power. He is trying to quietly get his enemies to screw themselves over whilst setting himself up to avoid suspicion. And his main spy network is perfectly set up to do that. I would also add that his little birds need not be a passive a network as you imply they would be. He sends them on missions to do key tasks for him, the assassination of Kevan Lannister being a prime example. And that one is pulled off even after he is out of the city. He is more than capable of sending them off to look into key players when he wants. He does not, it must be said, have quite the same immediate access to the highborn as Littlefinger but he has enough to be going on there and to make things happen when he needs to. Both are indeed good at both, and on their best days each can outwit the other, but I give the win to Varys and look forward to the day he personally leads Sansa to throwing Littlefinger through the moon door....... a man can dream right?
I haven't read the books...but have learned a lot of lore here on YT. I don't see how Varys isnt the obvious answer. I believe you guys "out-thought" yourselves and came to the controversial decision...rather than the one right in front of you 😅
My interpretation of Varys, is that he sees himself as a means to an end, and while he may have misgivings sometimes (like killing Kevyn), he never lets them take priority over the bigger picture. Great vid btw 👍
Thats what makes him the best player of the game in my opinion. Same with his interactions with Ned. There's no way he wasn't racked with guilt and wanted to free the good and honourable man he knew Ned was, but was able to push past his own wants for what he perceived to be the good of the realm. Thats what makes him so dangerous, his being a good man. Bad people do bad things because they are bad people. But when a good person does bad things, you know they are willing to do anything up to giving their life for the cause and will not stop. Thanks for watching Seldom matey! Liam
I think anyone can be good but I think it takes something special to be a master at it. I imagine Tyrion could have been an amazing spymatser had he been given a fair shake at it! Thanks for watching as always unreal! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Agreed I mean Jaime literally goes throughout the tunnels at the start of Feast and Varys hasn’t left yet as he’s in KL at the end of Dance. 🍻 look forward to next vid
Thanks Hayden! Unfortunately Thom refused to give me an Alibi :/ "Its murder and its illegal and its wrong" apparently. Don't see what the fuss is in all honesty. Thanks for watching as always mate! Liam
LF, the entire counsel wants him back including Jaime. No one liked Varys. Edit: Not surprising a YT nerd content creator wouldn’t think highly of social approval of their higher ups in someone’s ability to get their plans done.
It's most important to look at how they both met their ends. Varys sloppily tried to turn Dany's inner circle against her and towards Jon. Only to be betrayed by his friend, Tyrion. While Petyr was outmaneuvered by Sansa, who he spent 8 seasons grooming as his protege/bride. It's definitely Petyr. Based on the show, at least. Varys taking out Kevan Lannister in the books is probably the most boss moment in ADWD.
I think while little finger is the better player of the game, with the manipulation and ambition and cunning. Varys has to be the better spymaster, his network seems larger and more dependable. Littlefinger’s spies work for him for the money and out of fear, which often means they are more likely to fold and turn on him if they get a better offer (like with Ros when Varys recruits her)
See im the other way round. I think Varys is the better player and Littlefinger is a better spymaster by the skin of his teeth (but i don't think it will last much longer) When putting them against each other for this i found the argument boiled down to whats more important? Security or results? I'm quite biased towards Varys as a character in all honesty but I just couldn't seem to argue with littlefingers results 😂 Thanks for watching Buzz! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips in my view, Varys has the better access to information but Little finger is able to do more with his information, which is why I say he is a better player (tho I have only seen the show so my knowledge is one sided). But it’s two completely different strategies so it’s hard to compare them. Varys is a lie and wait for the right moment to strike (like freeing Tyrion and leaving King’s Landing) whereas Littlefinger is more of a catalyst, causing events to help achieve his goals (like war with the starks and lannisters) But, at least in the show, Varys seems to know more than Littlefinger, especially since Littlefinger’s network ends at Westeros.
Littlefingers spies as you said they are GROWN and have the inclination of “providing false truths” if it is in their best interest, so I’d still give Varys the edge
Thats the argument between them both overall I think Heady. Varys is way more careful about his information and security whereas littlefinger is high risk and high reward. Like we said in the video, What would you prefer? Security or Results? Thanks for watching! Liam
At 16:47 you wasted a GOLDEN opportunity to show a clip of Tyrion at his trial in Season 4 over that delivery of "I wish". "I wish I was the monster you think I am!" But that's just me nitpicking. As always, great video, and I fully agree with your case and argument, you nailed it and convinced me. You guys rock.
I just wunna say i love this channel! Im a major GOT nerd and have watched MANY a GOT videos(seriously its probably in the 100's by now..) and your channel is definitely one of my favourites!
We're quite slow on releases compared to other channels which hurts sub growth quite a bit. Slowly but surely though We're picking up our release speed 😂 thanks for watching Felix! Liam
Now that is a quality suggestion! It's going on the list! Though in the books it's mot quite clear whose i charge at high garden like it is in the show. Mace is a little bit more competent 😂 thanks for watching Adam! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Well if were dedicated to using the books, we could modify the idea to just Lannister v. Tyrell which house is better at climbing up the ladder?
As one of the people looking forward to this video I'm happy with the results and breakdown of what makes a good spy master, I hate how they ended both characters in the TV show and hope to get the books to correct that, totally agree with the choice of best player of the game of thrones too since doing anything results in death most of the time a wait for everyone else to die strategy does start to look appealing, now you just need to make videos explaining who else is on your small council.
#justice4Varys&LF I do too Kyle mate, I think they sort of had the right idea for Littlefingers death being that his own plots and schemes impoded on him but just rushed and terrible execution Varys, there is no sense whatsoever, just seems they wanted to have one more shocking death before the end 😂 Thanks for watching as always mate, your presence in the comments is always a welcome sight! Liam
Same, Little finger dying without even trying to dispute the charges that are loose at best, a boy claiming he can see all and sansa going back on what she already claims was the truth hurts especially when no repercussions comes from killing such an influencing person in thrones also feels wrong, unfortunately par for the course in the late seasons and we hope for the books, but if his plans collapsing and enough time given who do you think would be most satisfying to drive the final knife in his back?
I'm glad we could cheer you up Connor! I wish the best of luck with your results and hope you've got the grades you wanted! Thanks for watching as always matey! Liam.
