I’m Dutch and while I truly appreciate all of my international classmates in university, I do agree that the capacity of the country is full. While I don’t think this is the best solution, something needs to change. I was studying in Groningen but could barely afford rent anymore. I was doing two programs at the same time and working 16 hours next to my studies (the maximum that I could handle with my student workload). I’m from the south so travelling by train would take around 4 hours one way, so living in the city was a must. However, because of the rapidly increasing prices I asked my university for potential other opportunities. So I will be completing the second half of my masters in China going on an “extracurricular exchange” in order to still be enrolled but to live cheaper in another country. With the way that prices keep on rapidly increasing, I think I will stay abroad for a while where I have more opportunities to work and save money to eventually return and find a place to live. Sadly, a few of my friends also opted to continue their studies abroad. And not because of fun reasons, but simply due to finances. When citizens cannot afford to study in their own country anymore, something is drastically going wrong.
Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective. Let's hope the changes will benefit students and education in general. Until then, enjoy your time abroad-I've personally found studying abroad one of the most transformative experiences of my life!
I am an International Student in the Netherlands with an english studie, but i still made the effort to learn dutch (i am now fluent) . I always felt it was disrespectful when i met people who had studied there for years and still did not know any dutch at all. I mean if you choose a country to study in you should do your best to integrate into the culture and language.
Thanks for sharing. And also great to hear. What advice and tips do you have about learning the language? Because many find it very difficult to learn (eg. due to inability to practice).
As a Dutchie I wanted to let you know that it is really appreciated that you took the effort to learn our language. And I can imagine it was a lot of effort since our language isn’t an easy one to learn. My respects towards you. Dutch people are really good in English in general but I think a lot of people are taking that for granted and became lazy
Good job! At first I didn't really care, but changed my mind after a while. If you're here even for just two years, you can easily learn atleast a few words of my language.
As a south african studying in the Netherlands, I understand the locals concerns but their economy benefits a ton from international students. A good example is my tuition fee being a international student vs the tuition fee of a dutch student. My tuition fee is €8,160 a year while a dutch student only pays €2,160 a year. I don't complain about the cost of living because I'm happy to be here. If you've lived in the south africa i've lived in for 21 years, you would feel the same way I do. I'm immensely thankful and grateful for being here. I love this country and I will do everything I can to make things easier for the locals knowing how they're struggling because of us. Edit: Being south african my home language is Afrikaans which made learning dutch a lot easier for me
Thanks for the insightful video. I completed a PhD in the Netherlands (Radboud Universiteit, Nijmegen) in 2017. I am English speaking, and could write my thesis in English. I am from South Africa and can speak Afrikaans, and so could manage Dutch quite well. I have just been hired as a professor at the Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam. I will start on 1 November 2023. I guess that part of the reason why I was hired was because I studied in the Netherlands and can speak Dutch. What you describe is a complex problem. From my limited knowledge, and your analysis, the housing crisis does seem to be one of the primary drivers of this issue. But, let’s be honest, there are amazing Universities and programs in the Netherlands, and they are competitively priced for foreign students!
Thanks for sharing and the kind words! There are a lot of issues to this...housing is one of them =) Housing a big one...have you already moved and found a place? And congrats on the new gig! You may notice some familiar classrooms in the video from Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam :)
@@hidavidwen Since introduction of BaMa in 2007, in Groningen the Rijksuniversiteit (R.U.G.) grew from 20k to 36k and the Hanze Hogeschool from 19k to 29k. At the R.U.G.the number of foreign students is 'just' 25% , so they are only a part of that problem ... Some years ago there was 6000 more new ienlistments than the year before ! A city of 200k like Groningen can't adjust to that ! Fact is that the dutch housing crisis is for a deal csused by the NL government policy of Mark Rutte. In 2012 austerity cuts made the 2008 credit crisis endure longer in NL than say Belgium.. ( NL gdp decreased , compared to Belgiums and it took till 2018 , before NL level caught up again !). In all that time construction sector was almost flatlined , while the population kept growing ...
@@Haroekoe thank you so much! I am so grateful for the opportunity! It offers such promise for my family and I! Of course it is a big move. But, we are confident that it will be worth it!
You go for it! Ever since I visited SA for the first time (2011) and again in 2018, I got smitten by the country and the people. I stayed at friends in Benoni, who took me with them to their relatives in Capetown. On the other hand, I have contacts with SA through my job. We serve the African cycle team (of Douglas Ryder). Many of the people I got acquainted with, moved to the Netherlands as well. Hope you settle well. And don't hesitate to ask for help (from me, if necessary) from Dutchmen, since they will (should) assist. I myself live in Rotterdam. Since the financial crisis, many foreigners from South Europe came here (Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece), since the Russian war many Eastern European people came to live in my quarter. Sometimes I come across them, seeking for advice, and then I help them in certain typical Dutch procedures . Good luck 👊🏽✌🏼
The two main reasons why the use of English-only courses in Dutch universities should be limited (not ended) in my opinion, have little to do with the housing situation or retaining international students. One is to improve the language skills of Dutch graduates. The increasing use of English has lead to a huge decline of 'academic dutch'. That's not a big problem if you go on to work for an international company, but the vast majority of Dutch graduates, will go on to work in a Dutch speaking environment. There they have to write reports or papers in Dutch. Some really struggle to even write at highschool-level. The other has to do do with some Dutch minorities (mostly young refugees). It's a bit of a forgotten group in these discussions, but there is a group with a surprising percentage that learned enough Dutch (as a second language) for an academic course, but lacks the neccesary English skills (a third language) for university.
Shouldn't students learn proper academic Dutch by the end of high-school? Universities aren't there to improve a person's native language skills. One is at university to deploy them.
@@vmoses1979 They do learn Dutch in highschool: obviously. But they stop using it in college/university. That's the problem. You do see a decline in skill.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I get it. What's interesting is...many Dutch universities are quotes is saying the academic language is "English" (just quoting them)...I don't know what is going on but I'm curious...what is the balance between providing high-quality education and preserving/maintaining the language? Another question I have is...is that the feedback that many Dutch companies have...that the younger generations' Dutch language skills are currently lacking? If yes, that should definitely be investigated! But I mean language skills and not communication skills...because communication skills are something we all need to work on as humans haha Thanks for sharing!
@@hidavidwen You touch upon a very important part of this discussion. Dutch universities consider English the worldwide academic language (which is true). Within Dutch universities there is great support for the current system: they like it, see the preference for Dutch as backwords and not inclusive and would increase the use of English if they are allowed to. That has lead to the obvious decline of Dutch as an academic language (as in a language that is used in universities) Within society outside there are big concerns regarding this. Some practical (graduates that have to work in Dutch speaking enviroments and can't write about their subject in acceptable Dutch, access to university for minorities for whom English is a distant third language, access for Dutch students for whom English is a difficult Subject), some emotional (yhe 'why can't I order food in Dutch in a Dutch restaurant' crowd), some existential (fear for the end of Dutch in the long term. For a good example of this you might want to check an opinion piece in the NRC this week, where the use of English is compared to imperialism/colonialism. In current Dutch law universities are supposed to teach in Dutch, with some exceptions. Over the past few decades that exception became the norm. Sometimes with ridiculous effects (a student of Dutch language was not allowed to write or defend his paper in Dutch: even though there was little outside interest. ) My personal view is a bit mixed and I admit biased (I make a living by writing in Dutch). I think all students in the Netherlands should have the option to study all subjects primarely in their native language. For popular studies universities could create an English alternative, as long as the quality of the Dutch course doesn't suffer. Those that follow a full university course in English should at least learn the Dutch language. On the other hand; students that study for a master, should be able to write a paper in English. It is after all, the most important academic international language. With apologies for the long response.
The fact that many Dutch people can speak fluent English is also a double-edged sword. In many situations where "my English is better than your basic Dutch", natives tend to switch to English for faster communication. After all, not everyone has the patience to be a "language teacher" and would rather get things done faster. This creates a barrier for beginners to advance their proficiency. In contrast, in many places in France, Spain, or even Germany, speaking the local language, no matter how badly, is the only way to communicate.
Thanks for sharing. It is a double-edged sword indeed. Especially in Amsterdam...once people hear you don't speak fluent Dutch...they will switch to English-which is amazing but makes it difficult to practice the language.
@@hidavidwen Amsterdammer here this city is so international with so many cultures and languages that some of us talk/write more in English then Dutch. Hence over time i notice that even my internal voice talks english from time to time. All television if in English aren't voiced over unless it's a small kids program. It's all subtitled in Dutch. Look at me for example can you believe i never had English in any school? Never followed any class or program? My language skills are just picked up from playing online and work. I bet you see some mistakes. English in schools started somewhere in the 80's i think. I would have gotten English lesson at higher education but i dropped out as soon as it was allowed. As i hated school being bullied a lot as i am cripple. Later on i did some specific health care education cources and got a bunch of certificates, then i started volunteering till the point the organisation hired me. Not that i needed the income anyway. Inheritence enough to don't have to worry...
As you have shown the growth in international students is exponential. The education system is there to benefit the country, and tuition doesn't cover the costs, not even for outside EU students. This is what makes studying in the Netherlands very attractive, but also puts a large bill at the Dutch tax paying population. Most vacancies in the job market are not on university level but within higher and middle education. The balance has to be restored. Government plans are not to stop international university students but to reduce their numbers slightly and to stimulate international students on HBO and MBO levels. Especially in all those sectors where there is shortage. What's the use of having a thousand three star Michelin Chefs if you cant get anyone to bring the plates to the table or to do the dishes?
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Hm..now I have this visual of all these beautiful Michelin restaurants...and I just ordered a 3-course meal...but it's been an hour of waiting... But I hope whatever the plans are, they will benefit the students/educators in the long run. And that they can "course correct" and adapt if necessary
@@hidavidwen Of course! If you know the Netherlands any decision is a compromise and adjusted time after time, depending on how the wind blows. Harsh words at the start of any plan and by the time it passes parliament there is nothing left of them.
I think it isn't a bad idea to deter foreign students or at least forbid universities from having targeted ad campaigns. Not because we don't like internationals, on the contrary. It has enriched student life and our worldview. However, the housing market just cannot sustain it and universities with their lack of accommodation refuse to take any responsibility for this. In some cities students domestic and international slept in tents all throughout September because they couldn't find housing. Fix this issue first. Start building affordable dorms.
@@smorevids Thanks for sharing. Yeah, the housing thing...another big challenge (I know there's a lot of politics involved too)...I was lucky to find my student dorm 1 week before my flight to the Netherlands...
I really agree with the plan that international students need to study the Dutch language. Living in a foreign country and not speaking the local language is very disrespectful. In for example Amsterdam, it is very hard to find a Dutch speaking person in things like restaurants or stores. That’s the reason why I don’t go to Amsterdam anymore.
Thanks for sharing your perspective Thijs. Yeah, Amsterdam is definitely not representative of the Netherlands. I do try to tell people (who visit) to get outside and try to see the rest of the Netherlands
It's actually not that terribly complicated a problem. Firstly, the housing market: the shortage of housing also has a lot to do with the requirements that the inhabitants of the Netherlands place on a home. It was once normal that in the Randstad a family of 2 parents and 4 to 6 children lived in a floor house with 4 rooms. This same house is now often occupied by 1 to 2 people. This can also be seen elsewhere in the Netherlands: much larger single-family homes with up to 6 rooms are occupied by a maximum of 2 (!) people. The result of the ageing of the population and the simultaneous closure of old people's homes. Then higher education: the universities and colleges have seriously neglected their task of further educating and educating Dutch people. Instead, they have chosen the globalization path. The result of this is clear: an unhelpful threshold for young people in the Netherlands. Even though many believe that they have a good command of a language other than their mother tongue (Dutch), in reality this is bitterly disappointing. I myself belong to the generation that had to read books in German, French, English and Dutch for various subjects such as source literature at university. Also, scientific journals in these languages were "consumed". However, the lectures were almost always given in our mother tongue (i.e. Dutch). Dissertations were also written in Dutch (with an English and/or German summary). Now we have the curious situation that one university could offer a study programme Dutch for Dutch students with lectures NOT in Dutch, but in English. I have now reached the age where I am considered to be irrelevant by the younger generations, but it seems to me that safeguarding cultural individuality and a realistic view of the "carrying capacity" of a culture and the population belonging to that culture is also a core task of a government. Guests are always welcome, but they should not crowd out the hosts.
Well, I hope you don't think you are not "relevant"-we all have perspectives and wisdom to share. So thanks for sharing your wisdom. Wow, I can't imagine the era in which you had to study in 4 languages. I guess that was considered the "norm" in those days? Well...change is the one constant in life and in the history of humankind. With globalization comes positives and also consequences. I think the government is now trying to take care of the "consequences," but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What I'm trying to find out and curious about...I wonder if there's a study out there...what do all the Dutch students today think? (Since they are the ones in school)
@@hidavidwen If you do VWO for the first three years you still have to do Dutch, English, German and French (and ancient Latin and greek if you do Gymnasium. After that you have to study Dutch, English and one or more of the other languages, some schools offer Chinese and spanish as well) But about that Globalization, almost all History I learned during History lessons in high school had nothing to do with Dutch history, I had to learn that at Dutch lessons. So instead of learning more complex sayings and grammer there, I learned about the Dutch rennesaince and its impact on Dutch writing....
The housing is mostly an issue of lack of building and opening it up for international 'investment' though. The two people thing kinda forgets that the other four are new people (their children), not people that were also looking for a home. There just aren't enough homes to go around because we pushed for privatization of the market and pushed against construction by heavily regulated companies. This really is the fault of parties like the VVD but I don't trust they'll never take actual responsibility for their policies and reverse them. Another part is immigration. We really should close the borders for a while for any immigrants (not war refugees but people just looking for a better life). We gotta figure out how we can deal with this; take a critical look at how we make sure we have enough resources to go around and prevent segregation and promote integration.
@@hidavidwen I took English, French, Spanish and German classes during my VMBO-T (middle school, 12 to 16 y/o). Which is not exactly a high level, FYI. This was during the early 2000's, not sure how things are today. This country is small and trade oriented, so it makes sense to learn languages that are spoken in the neighboring countries. At this point one might almost say English classes are unnecessary, as exposure to the language is ubiquitous and unavoidable. You _will_ pick up the language, even if you don't try.
It's not just the housing problem but also Dutch students are currently having less chance to get into Dutch Universities because of the huge influx of international students. So some of them are "forced" to study abroad. I am an international student myself but I understand the struggle Netherlands is facing. Though I think the language policy would really affect the international outlook of Dutch Universities. One of the possible solutions I can think of is implementing this policy in HBOs while leaving the WOs alone. In addition, setting quotas for non-EU students would be a good option too.
Thanks for sharing. I do understand the solution should be the best option for the students here. Let’s hope everyone works towards a solution that best fits the students and educators’ needs
well I dont think that many going to Nederland I would love to study in Nederland but I dont have finances I would say more going to germany or Czech Republic because its free i you know the language but you got all EU to choose from
That kind of depends on how people get into universities... If it's a first come, first enroll basis, then it has no impact on the quality of the students => future workers. If you're admitted based on a certain 'quality' score and only the best are admitted, that would improve the students => future workers. I have no experience with university admittance, but did have to test when I went to HTS/LBO 25+ years ago, the test for aerospace engineering (HTS) was pretty though and not everyone was admitted. Even for something like multimedia design (LBO) I had to show them my art portfolio, I don't remember if I had to do an admittance test for informatica (HBO). The quality of students => future workers is also a double edged sword. Having been active in the job market for 20+ years, when the economy does well and there is a high demand, supply moves around with a huge delay. Meanwhile job requirements go down drastically, hell even at the helpdesk level we've had to hire people (low quality) I wouldn't have even considered if we had any choice in the matter. But when the economy goes down (the drain), suddenly there are less jobs available, with too many people looking for a job, and job requirements go through the roof. They want a 20-year old with 10 years of IT experience (I wish I was kidding!)... The huge elephant in the room is housing, we're 10+ years behind! We're 390.000 houses short in 2023! It's going to take YEARS before we're making any significant dent in that number. 'Inviting' more foreign students into the Netherlands is a HUGE issue, especially when it more then tripled in the last 15 years. Of those 120k+ students, around 30k graduate and if they can they'll continue to live and work in the Netherlands. In 2022 we had a population growth of of 220.000 people, that was because we had a positive migration balance of 224.000. The local population is shrinking, that's great for a housing deficit! We had 179.000 emigrate (out) and 403.000 immigrate (in). I have absolutely no issues with immigrants from whatever background (I grew up with kids from all kinds of countries), but I would like to solve our housing issues before 'inviting' more people in. This housing issue shouldn't have been an issue at all, blame the rest of the Dutch that voted 10+ years ago and the politicians that thought that abolishing government housing planning and completely depending on capitalism to steer our housing market... Student housing can be a separate issue from regular housing, but at this point it is entwined. If people have extra rooms they can rent out, if they didn't have that option, chances are that they would sell that house for something smaller (or even sell their second house)... If companies don't have a huge pool of applicants they'll be forced (in most cases) to accept less qualified personnel. Sources: www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/bevolkingsgroei/immigratie www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/bevolkingsgroei/groei
learn Dutch. If you're gettig academically educated it means you're smart enough to learn another language. If you're not then you're not fit to participate. When I went to Spain I first learnt Spanish, that's how it should be.
I graduated from my bachelor's course at The Hague's University of Applied Sciences in 2005 when about a fifth of all students were internationals (I'm Dutch myself). Back then, I thought it was great. Their presence brought a whole new dynamic to the place and I got a head start learning how to deal with cultural differences early in life. But now we're in a situation where Dutch students see their applications turned down in favor of international students who have completely flooded Dutch universities. This simply isn't sustainable. The EU's freedom of movement means we can't address this issue by setting quotas (which would be illegal under EU law) so policy makers have to resort to the next best tool: language. The alternative solution is raising the tuition fees, which would be a much worse solution that would end up favoring students with rich parents. Anyone can learn Dutch (it's really not that hard) but not everyone has a boatload of cash to pay exorbitant tuition fees. So yeah; it's a shitty plan. But it's the best available option to remedy a swiftly deteriorating situation. As for the housing market: that's the reason I'm planning to leave. I lived abroad for many years but came back to the Netherlands during the pandemic (a decision I now greatly regret). The housing market is a mess and it's only going to get worse. The government doesn't have a plan. Right now we don't even have a government. I'm not waiting around for this to be resolved; it's time to go.
Thanks for sharing Erik! I can understand your point of view. And also why the government is doing this. One thing I'd like to point out (based on Dutch Education Inspectorate's research) is that international students have "no impact on accessibility, but self-selection occurs among Dutch students" Source: www.nuffic.nl/sites/default/files/2023-03/factsheet-international-students.pdf And the housing thing...seems like this is a bigger problem that no one has a solution for =/ Where will you move to next?
It's really hard to learn Dutch in Amsterdam and major cities. Everyone automatically switches to English. That said, if you persevere, the language is relatively easy to learn. A lot more English words are used now (compared to 20 years ago).
Thanks for sharing! Yeah...everyone does automatically switch to English in Amsterdam, which is nice but makes it hard to learn the language. I mean...I guess...I would too...especially if it's at a restaurant or something...I wouldn't have the patience But perseverance is key to learning the language!
I think it’s insane that 40% of all 1st year students are international. They flood the system, making it hard to maintain quality. It’s not the housing crisis, that just adds to it. My son was denied a place in a prestigious study because of this (unrealistic competition with people 10 years older). It’s the fact that the whole system can’t cope. I’m for openness but not at all cost. And we are all paying taxes for this.. Also, I think it’s too easy to ignore the Dutch language. It’s getting worrisome that you can’t speak dutch anymore in whole swaths of Amsterdam. Is that what I paid taxes for my whole life? To have to speak English everywhere? You may not like the language but it’s getting to a point where it’s disrespectful to the locals. I don’t believe the metric that international students add 1.5 billion to the Dutch economy. It ignores the costs of giving them education.
Proficiency doesn't equal language either in an academic sense. Wrapping your head around something very complicated can be done in your own language but not in an acquired language. That's not much of a problem for the 'number' studies, but when the subject is expressed in words, it is. The level of education maxes out at the level of English of the students, and that is often lower.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Sorry to hear about your son-was this one of those "numerus fixus" programs? I think I read somewhere that the policymakers got what they wanted out of internationalization but didn't have a plan for what we are seeing today...but this seems to be a first step. Though I hope whatever happens that it is benefits students/educators in the long-run (because there seems to be a lot of disagreement between universities and the government which isn't a good thing for the sake of education) The 1.5 billion to Dutch economy, you can read the research here from Nuffic if you want = www.nuffic.nl/sites/default/files/2023-03/factsheet-international-students.pdf Thanks for sharing
No offense intended, but if he was rejected for a competitive study, could he not have tried in Flanders? I know not everyone has the funds to study in a far away city, but their fees are smaller for both housing and the study. Especially if it is medicine or dental, you can just prove your worth in a test that is the same for everyone. If he succeeds, then he might have been snubbed in the Netherlands, but he'll be able to do the study in Belgium. If he fails, perhaps he should work on himself for a while and try again later. Not sure if he can still do the second time test this year, but I would look into it if it is his dream.
@@hidavidwenThanks for your thoughtful reply. I appreciate the compassion. Ive always enjoyed your thoughtful videos, but had to react as I found this perspective too one sided. Anyways… read the article. And it’s annoying how it doesn’t reflect the costs at all. A very simple example: the 1,5bio “contribution” is calculated on lifetime tax revenue that the remains 24% of international students would generate. Now, they conveniently forget to offset the costs of all education for a student. On average a student costs the taxpayers between 15k and 32k per year. If they study here for three years: that’s between 45k and 96k. Compare that to the lifetime income that for the vast majority is 5k, then 16k, 64k and 96k (the minority but that has actually more years of study). Then take into account that we have additional cost per international student, that we now also pay basis beurs to international students, student loans etc. The costs of having to scale up capacity and you may realize that it’s not all good. On a side note: I don’t believe that scaling up capacity increases quality at all, certainly not with education.
A lot of Dutch people are going abroad to study in Flanders due of cheaper study costs, also they have a bigger chance to be accepted. It’s sad that foreigners take away spots for dutch students, that’s why they go abroad. But as a Flemish person, I love my Dutchies in Flanders ❤️
Thanks for sharing. I did not know that many Dutch students are leaving because they couldn't find a study spot in the Netherlands. Do you know if this is for certain programs that are more competitive? And how much cheaper is Belgium?
@@jeannebouwman1970Thanks for the tip-I knew quite a few people in my program who did the same (lived in nearby Belgium and commuted to Maastricht-easier to find housing and cheaper)
I’m Dutch, and have already met some of this change in tone. Last year the study I have started now had only 10% local first years due to locals being outcompeted by internationals. This year(my first year) they claimed to have a “Dutch track” where you are prepared for the “Dutch market” they claimed choosing this track wouldn’t affect your chances of getting in, but it actually did. I’d probably not be studying my dream study if it weren’t for this measure which made sure that at least 50% of 1st years were Dutch. I am glad they did this. Btw it is computer science & engineering at TU Delft
I was an introduction guide for international students for multiple years starting in 2018. Even then the uni had setup a massive tent came on the sports terain because of lack of housing. Its gotten worse every year. I met people from all over the world who im still friends with. This is why it makes me sad to admit that allowing more internationals to come is bordering on immoral at this point. Most of them have no idea how bad the housing market is. They are being dragged into an extremely stressfull situation away from friends and family. This really needs to be fixed first.
Thanks for sharing, especially as you were an introduction guide for international students. I did my Masters in 2018 and can relate to the pain of finding student housing. I studied in Maastricht and knew several people who lived in Belgium/Germany because it was cheaper/easier to find there. At the time, they were building a bunch of student housing...but I don't know if it's enough and fast enough. I get you and THANKS for being a guide for students-I really appreciated the help I got from people like you! (It really made moving/integrating so much easier)
What makes studying in The Netherlands so popular? What are your thoughts on the government’s proposal to limit international students? ⏰ CHAPTERS: 01:18 📚 Higher education in The Netherlands 02:23 🎓 Why study in The Netherlands? 07:59 📜 Government proposal (limit international students) 08:31 💰 Consequences 10:33 🇩🇰 Denmark case study 11:45 ⏭ Next steps If you would like to add your feedback to the bill/proposal, you can do so here: www.internetconsultatie.nl/internationaliseringho/b1
I think the education fee, due to the studiebeurs money, in the Netherlands is much lower compared to the uk or usa. I think it would be fair to make it mandatory for these students to stay in the Netherland to serve this country for some time before leaving back to their home country. Further there is a migrant issue in the Netherlands together with housing problems which has to do with wrong governmental decisions.
Government funding, and high level studies in English. They are focusing purely on international students. (Follow the money: they get more money for more students and more money for international students compared to dutch students.) I am a Dutch student and therefore second class. I chose a study in Dutch, but still my books and tests are in English while there are Dutch options available. There is just no class using them. Also there are no Masters in Dutch. Students are frequently told that it is not oke to think Dutch and below their level to work and write in Dutch. I hate it. I might write it a little to direct due to my anger, but it is unfair that I can not study in Dutch and keep getting told that all foreign is better.😮
I want them to make studies in Dutch again so I can understand them better and be able to express myself better. It gives me the ability to learn faster and easier. I have mental problems and want something more familiar. I have no interest in an international environment where I feel as if I am in a foreign country. I want to study.
The main issue isn't the housing market, foreign students do play an increasing role there but it's more extensive and can't be fixed by just reducing foreign student admissions. The bigger problem is the fact that foreign students rarely stay, which makes them a net loss to the economy. The best way to fix that is to switch most bachelors over to Dutch, so people who don't intend on staying don't come, and the ones that do come have a better chance at the labor market and integrate better. Additionally, if we stop using Dutch in higher education, then Dutch stops being a formal language. The Dutch are great English speakers, that is for OUR benefit, not foreigners.
Make learning Dutch mandatory to encourage future integration into our society. After all that is the main advantage of having international students to retain them for the Dutch economy. Teaching tech and science in English is logic since this is the common language in this industry. Find a solution for the housing crisis by improving infrastructure and/or relocate the universities to less populated areas.
Thanks for sharing. Great idea. It is part of the proposal I believe. Though I think it needs to be practical (meaning they support students in learning the language if it’s part of the curriculum) and I hope they have a plan for this
Het is wel raar dat we van asielzoekers (volkomen terecht) eisen dat ze integreren, maar dat niet eisen van mensen die hier komen voor andere redenen zoals werk en zich in dit geval bij onze elite voegen.
Dutch is already mandatory, this government simply breaks the law because internationalization is great. Don't ask how or why or to which degree, it just is.
Great video, you put so much time & info in it. I am from USA & signed lease in Netherlands with a friend I met earlier this year. Without this friend I would have paid 3 times more at airbnb. Huge housing issue here. This is interesting. You were so smart to do Masters here.
@@hidavidwenI was preaching all over the world for over 10 years as christian evangelist but always felt home in Holland. Hopefully my daft is approved and i stay awhile. Start business.
Those numbers about the stay rate don't paint an accurate picture. You are referencing a study by Nuffic, which states that of all international graduates in 2015, 23.6% is still living and working in The Netherlands five years later. But graduates of 2015 started college in 2011. Back in 2011 most courses were still in Dutch, meaning more of those international students had to invest in learning the language and culture. There isn't a recent study on the current stayrate, but I can only imagine what the lack of necessity to speak the language does with the attachment to the country and, by extension, the stayrate.
Thanks for sharing. Yeah I don’t know of any other study though I did try to find. Things could change but I don’t think it’s a drastic change. What the studies do show is that internationals do add a lot to the local economy (even if only 24% stay…this number is higher for non-EU). And what Denmark learned a few years after “limiting international students” is that…a better strategy is how to better integrate and retain foreign students instead (because they also have a shortage in the labor market)
Well true or not once they go apply for a job they are skilled foreign workers mostly because of their studies and that entails a 30% income tax cut for the first year slowly degrading over time. Rumors are flying that most of them move out once they no longer benefit from the higher payouts. That's why some argue against this program as it created unfair competition for the locals. (they can offer more rent due to the tax cut as their Dutch college's doing the exact same work.)
@@hidavidwen Hard question, Do you or do you not pay less income taxes then your Dutch colleges doing the same work? If true sure you can spent more or offer more rent then a local with the same skillset.
@@randar1969 I don't think this applies to foreign students. The 30% reduction in income tax only applies to highly skilled migrant workers. The definition of 'highly skilled migrant workers' used by the tax services (the Dutch IRS) contains having lived at least 150 kilometres outside of the Dutch borders for at least 16 months before starting at the job. By the time foreign students finish their bachelor or master, they'll have lived for more than 16 months in The Netherlands. This also applies to David Wen, who has studied in Maastricht, in the province of Limburg. And while an argument can be made that the province of Limburg is just Belgium with nicer roads, Maastricht is still nearer than 150 km from the civilised parts of The Netherlands 😂
@@randar1969 I pay the same amount of taxes. Are you referring to the 30% ruling? I didn't get that when I first applied (I studied here as a student). I hope you know not everyone gets it. And if you assume everyone gets it and then blame "expats," it creates a lot of hate towards "expats" who are just people like you with dreams and challenges. Even if some expats get 30%...there's a reason for it. And plus...there are bigger 'problems' to worry about, don't you think? Anyways, I just want to say something because often it's the system/policy that people are not happy about. But often people (eg. expats/students) are blamed. And that creates a lot of hate. Anyways, you have your own opinion too which is valid...but I just want to offer mine too. I hope you take care.
I always loved the diversity I experienced during my student years in Leiden. I met wonderful people from across the world, and I learned so much from every one of them. And I am thankful to all of them for sharing their stories and their experiences with me. I would have missed out on so many wonderful stories, situations and events that I would have never known about otherwise...
Thanks for sharing your experience! I also really enjoyed my program at Maastricht University largely due to the international group discussions and environment (probably the thing I liked the most besides being in a new country at the time!)
Thank you for researching the subject. I left a comment on your "Living in Amsterdam" video about the subject and this a very clear presentation of the situation.
I appreciate a video like this because I've met many who were students in NL and are now in the workforce locally but with international companies. I know it's much harder now-a-days due to housing which, I guess I feel like would make it so the number of internationals would automatically go down, just because theres nowhere to stay. But as someone who worked in a university admissions office in the USA, I can tell you that there's a lot at play in admissions at that level. I also appreciate diversity, especially at this level where you need to learn to work with thise with different backgrounds before going into the workforce. But all the elements you mentioned feed off of each other. If there aren't enough Dutch speakers to teach special courses, then what? And I've heard from Dutch people that they are glad they took their degrees in English because they studied science and it doesn't make sense to learn it in Dutch because the industry is so varied. I don't think there is an easy fix. But I hope something good comes out of this for Dutch students and internationals, because they all deserve a good education (and to not sleep in tents).
Thanks for sharing Jessica. Didn't know you worked in university admissions (I also worked part-time at my university's admissions office too!). Yeah I also talked to many of my Dutch classmates who said they chose to study in English (to practice their English at a higher level and of course, they will still use Dutch with friends outside of the classroom)
I am not entirely buying into the housing crisis as the main reason for stemming the flow of foreign students. The houses that foreign students (do not) occupy are just a drop in the overall housing crisis bucket. I'd like to offer a rundown of some of the bigger problems that I think are having an impact. Every foreign student is losing the Netherlands money, a cost that is not covered by the tuition fees. As a former employee of the ministry of education I ran though the numbers a few times and have found time and time again that most of those 'added value' assumptions of higher education are based om wishful thinking rather than any hard calculus [not that anyone took note of my findings back then]. The supposed cost-benefit of investing one Euro now in education and getting three Euros back in the long run simply does not make any sense. The Netherlands has the wrong mix of graduates. There may a job crisis at the white collar academic level, the job crisis at the blue collar level is significantly worse. For example - a local chip manufacturer was recently in serious danger of having to shut down production because they could not find enough blue collar employees (like welders and metal workers) for the work floor. Simply put; without the work floor producing the nuts and bolts everything comes to a dead stop. Limiting access to higher education could restore some of the required balance. This is not a new idea by any means, it is how it used to be in the West. Then there are the demographics. Falling birthrates make for falling numbers of students. Scaling down the size of higher education now is cheaper than filling the growing gaps with foreign students. Rumors are that in years to come some of the Dutch Universities will be downgraded to college status while some colleges could disappear completely. I guess some of the Dutch decision makers took note of what has happened to higher education in South Korea and Japan and were scared witless looking at the horrific cost of just keeping things going while you population (and tax base) is shrinking. Politically and socially sensitive issues. Nobody wants to admit that Dutch higher education has partly failed - it costs way too much and delivers too little. Nobody in academia wants to make sacrifices as the pool of viable students inevitably shrinks - Much easier to blame everything on student housing and force a downsizing that way. Simply put; in the end harsh economics will decide the fate of higher education - not housing.
The problems you mention are widespread throughout Europe. You're right, the shortage of blue collar workers is a big problem, and not only in the Netherlands. I read that both in the UK and the Netherlands, they can build enough because there aren't enough construction workers. This influences housing and housing crisis.
Thanks for sharing this detailed perspective! Interested to hear a bit more about your analysis in regards to the foreign students (I guess this is also broken down into EU vs. Non-EU foreign students too) being more costly. What would happen if the retention rate jumped from 24% to say 27%? 30%? Would that be a better strategy to aim for since foreign students do add to the economy if they stay. There are also other factors that you can't put a number on too (eg. diversity of thought, politics, etc) So many factors! I'm glad I don't have that job =) As someone who worked for the Ministry of Education, what do you think is the right solution(s)? (I know that's a big question....)
@@barbthegreat586yes but thats also because of the society we live in. People that get a practical education are often put down and are seen as less then those that have higher education. This is why many of the VMBO kids decide to go further to HBO. But then you have a lot of higher education but lack of practical people that built houses, built the streets, paint the homes etc.
Interesting analysis, but you conclusions and some of the numbers are wrong. I think you missed a lot of the news of the last three years. Housing is a big problem, especially for students and young people who want to buy (or rent)) their first home. People and Dutch students are not buying the fact that the ever growing amount of foreign students compete on the small market for housing, leaving lots of Dutch students and young people living at there parents and having to travel longer distances to university. At some universities there are even places reserved for foreign students, while there is a shortage of places and some students can't do the study they want because of that. There is a shortage of blue collar workers, but that the foreign students coming to the Netherlands are at the academic level and eventually only a very small number will work as a blue collar worker. The Dutch population is not shrinking, but still growing. Growth is mainly because immigration and that will go on for at least seven to 10 years. Main problem on the population side is the fact that the population is rapidly becoming of age and there are not enough young people to take care of elderly people or replace them. You can't say the Dutch higher education failed. Education is expensive (that's just a fact), but it does deliver a whole lot of good educated people who are beneficial to the country. The education is only failing in the sense that it does not always deliver the people educated for the jobs we need the most. Foreign students do not pay their whole cost of education and are costing the Dutch society money. The foreign students profit more from their Dutch education as the Netherlands from them. At the moment the number of foreign students (over 95% academic) is to big. This is making the housing problem very big and the Dutch students suffer from that. Decreasing the number of foreign students will be a good solution for the short time. Setting a maximum will be a better solution for the long time.
@@barbthegreat586 That's simply not true. It's those white collar retards making up all kinds of weird rules that makes it practically impossible for construction companies to build - like the whole "stikstof"-crisis nonsense that forces companies to spend insane amounts of money just to be able to get certificates. All of this is due to horrible mismanagement by the government who seem more preoccupied with far-fetched theories about the world ending due to climate change and forcing LGBTQ nonsense down everyone's throats than actually worrying about our failing economy, the increasing polarization and other REAL issues. If anything, the entire problem has been created out of thin air by white collar types who live in ivory towers and refuse to see life from the perspective of the ordinary citizen. I've been in both hard physical labor as well as university and it's not the working boys who are the problem. Is everyone really so blind to not see all those big corporate building being built everywhere? Is everyone so blind as to not see large empty spaces in cities where housing for tens of thousands could be built? It's ridiculous and it hurts to see that the entire academic circus cannot make their collective 2 braincells collide for long enough to see the thick layer if bullshit that the entire subject is drenched in.
I was born in Maastricht and live in the place you studied at, in the last 10 years it has almost become a city like Amsterdam where 30% of people talk English instead of dutch, i don't mind it but can also understand all these jobless (most times) students seem very invasive and I don't feel like they are contributing to the country or city almost at all. So I think making the barrier of entry higher in universities for foreign students is a good idea. Like mandating Dutch.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I can understand your concern. Also because I lived in Maastricht. Well if you put yourself in the shoes of an 18-year old who goes abroad to study (which is a nice benefit of the EU)...haha I think university is the time for many young people to "grow up" which can sometimes mean very "invasive." Of course, that is what will happen in most countries too. The language is one thing. Another one is...keeping some of those foreign students and helping them integrate into society/find jobs so they can contribute to society
Yeah, most simple jobs require them to speak Dutch witch can make it hard to find work however these days they lack so many people for jobs they hire students in café's and restaurants anyway. I would love to see a way for medical students to help out in a hospital and get some real experience under the belt, but this is not how university works sadly. @@hidavidwen
@@brandonmunson9781 I should have used your excuse for me having to learn French in Belgium. yes French and Dutch are mandatory classes there in any study. Why would this be illegal?
In 2010 I helped a Romanian student that was studying in The Netherlands because it was cheap or free. The student was trying to solve a control problem. His instructor didn't know squat about the control problem the student was supposed to solve. The student got an A but I would have failed him because he couldn't write the differential equations that defined the problem. In the end the student did well and is living in Romania successfully. I still see notice from him on LinkedIn.
For a dutch guy my problem is.. changing of our language. Importing un-useful English words like "meeting" "awkward" etc. Dutch people need to be more proud of our language. International people studying and working here don't really help. There are a lot of Ukrainian refugees, trying to speak Dutch and they are very welcome. Yes I speak English, but please.. try to speak a little bit Dutch.
I get that. I'm an international student in the Netherlands and am making the effort to learn Dutch. A lot of my peers were quite dismissive of that and don't bother. I think it's both a necessary courtesy to the dutch people I live with and just really helpful for my daily life. I just wish my uni would support learning Dutch with more than a falling apart, out of date online course...
@@dennisherzberger4813 Yes! Nice to hear you are taking the effort to learn Dutch. But yeah...more support with Dutch learning could really help. I remember at Maastricht University, there was a 1 free in-person class for students
The Netherlands is full and students have for years been finding it difficult to find somewhere to live. Also the locals are starting to protest about how much English is used here. In the trams the stops are spoken in Dutch and English and even that is annoying some people!
I can only speak as a Belgian studying in my country. Nevertheless, we have a lot of foreign students who are coming here nowadays for English-taught programmes. The downside is that many of these foreign students struggle to find employment or to integrate with other Belgians because of their lack of language skills, that is if they wish to remain in Belgium. Now, there are lots of other countries for students to acquire a good education instead of just in NL within the EU. However if people are going to stay in a country where English is NOT the official language (and regardless of the level of local English proficiency levels), learning the local language(s) will be a necessary tool for the future. I don’t believe that this new proposed policy is the ultimate solution to the housing crisis for my neighbours to the north, but perhaps this legislation can be a start to stabilise the lodging situation moving forward. Don’t forget that a foreign student who studies in one language can learn to transfer the acquired knowledge to another language With your example, a student who studies their coursework in Dutch can easily translate what they have learned to English or any other language. Many of us non-English speakers do that all of the time frankly. It’s always nice to see other arguments or solutions if you have any, so feel free to share what you think. :)
Thanks for sharing your perspective, appreciate it! Hopefully this proposal sparks constructive conversation between everyone to come to a better solution...it will probably take time and multiple changes too. Learning the language definitely helps. I do like the idea of students learning the language in university. Though "how" it is implemented...I'm curious...I think it'll definitely help students integrate into society...but I don't know how practical it will to expect people to come learn Dutch for a few years...and then find a job in the Dutch language... The housing crisis...yeah another big topic...don't think anyone has a solution to that =/ Thank you!
@@hidavidwen The housing crisis affects many more people than just (foreign) students. Apart from that: globalization has resulted in a considerable subculture/bubble of international students and expat workers, most of whom do not speak the language of the country they reside in, or barely. In the long run, they will not integrate into 'normal society', should they wish to. Fluency in any language can only be acquired by immersing yourself in a native speaking community or workplace, which appears to be rather rare. International companies don't care, why should they? Do you? So there you have it. 'Internationals' are bound to remain strangers to the country they live in, The Netherlands in this case. It doesn't matter, it is not a real concern to most. There is another minor thing: the Dutch are gradually losing their culture, too. It is well underway of being 'internationalized'. Ah, well. Most internationals wouldn't know, as they hardly ever leave their bubble. So tell me: who are the winners of said 'globalization'? Well, fuck me. I didn't address any of the problems mentioned in this video, nor did I provide solutions. Sorry about that!
Hi David, this country simply can' t provide everything for anyone. Space, environment and finances are running out. So we have to be more selective (in my opinion) in who we admit. You contribute to this society, feel very welcome but this doesn't apply to all. It is kind of funny that in Amsterdam you hear a lot of English. My husband, who teaches at University has to teach in English, when only one student is foreign, of which he is capable, but it sound really funny😅.sounds
Thanks for sharing your perspective! Yeah, I understand. I was surprised how easy it is for EU students to just be admitted anywhere (well compared to the US where it is way more selective)...but I guess that's part of being in the EU. I do think that's what people appreciate about Dutch people...how they can just adapt and switch to accommodate and include the one foreigner!
You've touched on a lot of valid points, David. Very interesting research and talk. On another note, some locals I know are trying to run their businesses while being harassed by squatters who are occupying a half block of property in the centre of Amsterdam. I'm not privvy to everything going on, but I do know that these business owners have contacted the police numerous times because of the antisocial disturbances, filed complaints and even taken the particular owner of these flats to court because of inaction while the squatters are continuing to chase away clients. So, I don't understand why this owner, or any others for that matter, can't strike deals with universities like UvA because students are so desperately needing housing. Something's out of balance here.
Thanks for sharing and for the kind words. Oh yeah...squatting is another topic...I don't know too much about but I knew of people who stayed in squat houses when I was studying here...but yeah I know it was banned in 2010 but under certain circumstances, squatting is still allowed Something is out of balance with the housing for sure
I think you explained it quite well. In essence, international students cost the country a lot, they usually don't stay to work here, and they make it more difficult for other people here to find a home. On the other hand, especially in (specialized) STEM fields, we'd get a terrib;e shortage of teachers if they'd need fluent Dutch for it. I'd suggest increasing the amount of Dutch courses, but allowing some fields to maintain English teachers.
Thank you for this informative video!! I learned something new and love the way you present your facts. Keep up the great work!! Can't wait to learn more from you and your experience living abroad!
I used to be one of these international students in Groningen, I graduated and am now back to my home country where I have been working for the past few years. From my experience, I actually fully agree with the need to limit international students at universities. The universities attract (also proactively) more students than the carrying capacities of the cities. The student housing crisis has already been an issue when I started studying and I see it continues to be one years after I have finished. This not only creates an issue for locals as renting prices and cost of living go up beyond reasonable margins, but it is also bad for international students in particular, as they are usually some of the most disadvantaged and vulnerable groups (not speaking the language, not being allowed in certain rental options, not having money, and also not having local family & friends network). This translates into the quality of education itself worsening for these students as well, as you cannot achieve best results with improper conditions when you are still homeless, overstressed, spending half of your time and energy trying to look for a rental (or trying to accomodate for options as a workaround). Nobody wins in such a situation.
Interesting video David. It seems the government is addressing one policy problem (lack of housing in general and in particular for students) by apportioning blame to those that haven't caused the problem - rising international student numbers. If the government is saying we have a capacity problem within universities ie there is a limit to the number of students we can teach - that is fine. Any system has limits but this should have been made apparent from the outset. But it is interesting that when international student numbers started increasing a lot some 10 plus years ago - the government and the universities didn't sit down together to map out what the system would look like and what numbers were acceptable and what outcomes were desired after internationals finished their schooling. This is another policy failure. Ultimately - the Netherlands has an interest in sustaining teaching in English for a whole host of subjects most especially for STEM. They have an interest in encouraging internationals to stay to fill job vacancies. And they have an interest in fostering openness and diverse learning in order to keep the Dutch economy at the forefront. Each of these goals needs clear policy directives from the government so that a positive outcome is acheived from educating international students. This new proposed bill reminds me of Amsterdam's new policy telling visitors we don't want you here especially the rowdy ones who stay for a short time. The Dutch seem to be closing up shop.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. From researching this, I don't think there was a plan in place in regards to the consequences of internationalization. I mean...there are many factors at play...and everyone has their own opinion to the "real problem" =) I just hope everyone gets together to do what's best for Education!
Even though I don’t live in The Netherlands anymore, I have to say it was incredibly frustrating not to be able to speak your own language in the city you were born in. (Amsterdam) I really think the government should prioritize Dutch citizens over Int’l students when securing spots and should make Dutch mandatory to at least a conversational level for expats after a certain amount of time there. Dutch after all will and stay our primary language. I think it’d be beneficial to limit the number of int’l students in certain programs to make room for our own citizens as well. We have this disease in our culture called 6jes-cultuur. Where we just do the bare minimum to complete course work. It was really great in hs, but looking back on it, it’s so much lost potential. I was horrified when I read that there was a housing shortage for int’l students. It shouldn’t be happening in a country like The Netherlands. I think it’d also be benificial to have a trans-Dutch educational agreement between Dutch speaking (🇧🇪🇸🇷🇨🇼🇦🇼🇧🇶) regions to promote bilateral ties and strenghten other economies at the same time.
Thanks Tahir for sharing. I can understand that frustration in Amsterdam (especially there) given how international the city has become given it's the go-to place for tourists who come to the Netherlands and also many international workers/students. Has "Amsterdam" changed a lot since you grew up here? I imagine it's always been "international" but has definitely changed too 6jes-cultuur is something that really fascinates me (coming from the US)...it's something I plan to explore more of...now looking back, what are your thoughts on it??? Lots of questions haha but thanks for sharing and take care
@@hidavidwen Hi :)) Yes, Amsterdam has always been an Int’l city and has always been the exception when it comes to Int’l traffic in The Netherlands. I moved to North America around 2010 when I was 18 and came back for a year in 2018-2019. During that time, I could visibly see the change. I’ve heard of Amsterdam’s overtourism issue, but didn’t think much of it since there’s always been tourists as long as I can remember (I was born in the early 90’s for reference) So when I came back, downtown (Centrum) became unbearable. I know that downtown gets the most foot traffic so it was expected, but experiencing that many people where sidewalks get clogged up was really something else. Because of this, Amsterdammers dislike coming to the downtown core. With regards to English, it always has been the language of communication of course and because of this, our English level, especially in Amsterdam, is higher than average. I don’t mind speaking English, but coming back from the US, and forced to speak English again was something I didn’t like because of shopkeepers’ inability to communicate. This happened multiple times. 6jes-cultuur is really the opposite of what the US education system promotes. Which one was hand has its own pros and cons. I was amused when I found out that my 5 yo nieces and nephews were given hw. I wasn’t given hw until I got to hs. Through my Dutch eyes, Americans are excessively obsessed with academics. You guys have summer school, AP classes, ec activities, Kumon, etc etc. Dutch kids do the bare minimum and hope they pass. We don’t even talk school outside of school. Which now, I realize, Americans do so right! 6jes-cultuur in my personal experience really demotivated me because even teachers have certain stereotypes depending what level of hs you do. The Dutch hs system is divided in different tiers. Depending what tier you fall in, also determines the typs of jobs and salary you can expect. We take the CITO test at 12 yo and moving up levels can take very long (I had VMBO-B). Had we not gone to the US, I would’ve never gotten my BA because moving up also has its own set of challenges. Teachers also have a hand in determining the level you go to. My sister had a high CITO score (HAVO-VWO level) , but according to her teacher needed to go lower (VMBO-k). My dad had to jump through a bunch of academic hoops to prove she was capable which luckily in the end she did. It’s really fascinating how it all works :) Lmk if you have more questions!
I am fairly sure that the government cannot directly make laws relating or stating that Dutch is a requirement if you wish to study in NL, since that would be against EU law. But in my opinion, they could restrict the flow of international students by denying applications (or making tuition more expensive, but it's quite controversial). Also some universities are private and you cannot necessarily impose such regulation upon them. Even so, the Netherlands would get a lot of backlash if they were to integrate some kind of law with the aforementioned prerequisites. I wouldn't be surprised if they would get sued over infringing EU law or Human Rights. After all, I'm not sure that any State has done anything remotely similar to this. But I do agree that countries should prioritise their citizens over internationals. But again, there can be a lot of debate over this, since it would also discriminate. I'm not sure they can do anything about it except deny applications. The current situation favors int'l people for studying, but does not do so when these individuals search for jobs. The current NL market prioritizes Dutch-speaking people / Dutch citizens over internationals who do not have knowledge of the language. Students, like all people registered with the municipalities in the NL, also pay taxes and have the same obligations as everyone else.
I wanted to add my little anecdote. I am a Dutch citizen and studied for a bachelor in ICT. Due to the housing crisis and the utter destruction of the subsidy system (I started in 2017 the end of the "stutenten beurs") I chose not to get a student room. I had to travel 1.5 hours (one way) to school, but At least public transport is free (if you get your diploma within a certain time). This also had the bonus to use the train as a leisure activity (watching movies, reddit, RU-vid, etc.). But back to the bachelor. I chose the Dutch course (because you know I am Dutch). But in the second semester I was supprised to see that we were combined with the english version for the specialization section of the course. This was one of the most fun experiences for me as I got to work on the specialization I was most interested in and with the fact that I got to hear from different ethnicities/cultures that otherwise would have never had. But after the specializations it was back to Dutch. However is some weird turn of events there weren't enough tutors/coaches to help me during my graduation section. So I was assigned a Greek teacher that couldn't really speak much Dutch. So I had to do my graduation project in English. I actually liked this more than Dutch as I can write better formal/academic English that Dutch. (Mostly because English is much simpler and easier to integrate with IT subjects). This teacher was a great help in guiding me to create a great Thesis. TL;DR. As a Dutch student I find the integration with the international community a great and amazing tool to better the Dutch education system.
Thanks for sharing your experience as a Dutch student. I think it's very valuable...and I'm trying to find more perspectives from Dutch students... Because there is a lot of debate amongst the government, the universities, and of course people...but I wonder what the younger generation of students today think? Because ultimately, the students "right now" and in the future are the ones who are going to be affected the most...
Thansk for making this video David. Currently deciding between DK, NL, and DE and if a Masters even makes sense or not. Germany is definitely the cheapest, but it seems like the hardest place to live in if you don't already speak DE... IDK, disappointing to see NL limiting international students instead of building more housing, but I guess it's one solution.
I'm an international student in Germany who just finished my masters. I couldn't speak any German before moving here. It is possible to get around without German espeacially in big cities but yes compared to DK and NL there is definitely more of a need to learn to language. That being said many unis offer free German language courses, my uni did and well now I am gunna start a job in German. There's definitely a good number English language jobs in big cities but they tend to be way more competive than German language ones. Germany has the largest number of international students of any non-English speaking country and the 4th most in the world behind the USA, UK and Australia. I would definitely recommend looking into studying here since you will save the most money.
If you want something from someone, it is polite to learn their language. It is unfair and rude not to learn the language of the country you are living in. An besides, is studying abroad not meant for learning a different culture?
@@rutherfordbhaze7354I have to evaluate it. I’m very concerned with how walkable the place I live in will be so Berlin is at the top of my list. If I can relocate to Berlin directly then I’ll move there now. I work for a Danish company. So if I can relocate there internally then I’ll go with that option. I’ll definitely consider Germany.
@@TreinbouwerI’m gonna do it, but the problem is there’s going to be a period where I am not a fully capable adult unless I know the language. For that period, I will lose out on an existing friendship network, knowledge of how society works, and everything else. If that’s gonna be a trade off, I rather for it to a place where I have a back up option of English if I HAVE to deal with all of those problems already. If I move to the NL, I’ll learn Dutch. It’s my most preferred country, but when it’s not even guaranteed that I’ll get any kind of an offer let alone one that makes economic sense, nor even housing even if I get one, I’ll need to weight all of my options. It won’t make sense for me to learn Dutch now. Or I’ll just develop my career in the US.
Heyy, Just want to clarify something about the housing crisis. We want to build more houses. You don't know how desperate we are for more houses... but we are not allowed by EU law. We are in a nitrogen crisis. It means that we are producing too much nitrogen which are affecting the climate in protected nature areas. Nitrogen is mostly produced by farming animals, flying and building houses. We stopped our airport from growing and trying to make it shrink (which has a big impact on the economy). We also tried to buy out our farmers. As a result they made their own party and took over the 1st chamber with the elections😅 Now we cant approve more building plans and since the international students are growing, the refugees are growing and the amount of people in the country are growing we are only able to watch and cry while it happens....
I do wanna say that one year master's are everywhere in the states, the thing is to get one you will have to do a 4+1 in the same major. If your major in grad focus is different, if even ever so slightly, than what you took in undergrad, then it more often than not will be 2 years due to pre-reqs and other core you'd have to take to make up for it.
Thanks for sharing that. I do know of shorter Masters too but most of the ones I found were 1.5 to 2 years (most of my friends who did masters did 2-year programs too)
I studied in Germany for my masters and found that to be easily affordable as tuition fee was like 150 euros a semester.. my masters was in English but since it’s engineering I think that’s why it was offered in English
@@hidavidwen Hi David .. I live in the Netherlands now though as I got a work opportunity directly after graduation from Germany.. i came to NL thinking to stay temporarily on a 1 year job contract and stayed as I like it here and company offered permanent employment. Regarding masters education, I choose Germany mainly for 2 reasons , first was the tuition fee was very low and affordable for me and since I was in engineering domain and Germany was known worldwide for being an engineering hub with many world renowned companies..
i'm all for setting a limit on Foreign students if we don't have enough capacity. We just need to look at where and what we need. I can see some earia's actualy expanding and some making it very difficult to get into.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I do get the limit. I always know there are politics and business involved…I just hope it is best for the students and educators when it comes to something as important as education
@@hidavidwen Smart answer, yup there are so many variables. My basic approach foreign students are good for your country. Get as many in as you can afford. But at the risk of sounding nationalistic. In this case its your own people first (sorry but we need to educate our own first thats our primairy objective). But if you put them first you need at least some foreign students because they are good for your own people. So i fully agree with you on principle lets hope we can get that principle in reality.
Thanks, things are changing but if you’re already a student, I hope you remain strong and don’t let that affect your decision to stay. There are many people still do welcome you. Here for you David
Not every university agrees with this government measure. The housing shortage affects the whole of the Netherlands, but the University of Twente says that things are not too bad in the Twente region. The University of Twente would like an exception to the new measures, because it says it is very dependent on international students. Twente has sufficient housing for students. Unlike Twente, this region is less densely populated than the Randstad.
Yes, I did =) I had a great time, I hope your neighbor did too. Now you got me thinking...the education experience in the US is quite different...I think that may be a nice video idea :)
I do think the housing crisis is the biggest problem for students right now. I heard on the news a few weeks ago that more than half of students still live with their parents. Also, I don't think having your study in Dutch will put you behind on the international market. As you said, the language of science is English, so nearly all literature we read is still in English. That way, we still learn all the terminology in English
Thanks for sharing your perspective! Yeah...I've read comments of students who travel a few hours each day from home just to go to school...and that there are delays (again) with the construction of housing =/
With due respect, it doesn’t seem right to move to a country and specifically avoid having to learn the local language. It doesn’t matter if all Dutch speak English. Intent to learn is important, because it shows humility and willingness to adapt to local customs. I grew up speaking English and Chinese, but now now living in France and speak French fluently.
Thanks for sharing. I can understand. In principle, everyone should learn. The reality is that most don't but that doesn't mean they don't want to...as compared to France, the Dutch are the most fluent English speakers in the world (where English is a 2nd language). Again, there's a difference between "principle" and "reality," which makes for a very interesting case study! Check out this reddit thread to hear some responses: www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/15pdrz7/why_dont_foreigners_international_student_learn/
Am a Netherlands citizen moved to England years ago, trust me I wish I never left Netherlands I regrets it soooo bad , I used to study mbo Niveau 3 at roc airport in hoofddrop , I was raised in the Netherlands, went to basics school and went to nova college, after Nova straight to mbo , and yeah was soo hard then move to England . Trust me I regret it , Netherlands education system is just the best compare to England , I wish I could reverse the time I would have made a better decision.. 😢
We don't need more higher educated people. We need carpenters, plumbers, people who can fix things. In these jobs you can earn more money than in the jobs for people who graduated.
@@hidavidwen Well thats not really the case. It became lucrative in the netherlands because we unfortunately as a society ended up that the higher the education you do the better you are. Jobs like carpenters, plumbers etc dont need high education here which now led to shortages of people in those fields so there is a demand supply issue
I think it's a sing of respect to learn the language of the country you live in. (Or at least try) It also helps to integrate. A lot of dutch adust bij speaking english now (maybe) it's your turn to adjust. (I don't mean this in a bad way, i enjoy your channel)
Where it comes down is that the Dutch government needs a plan how to serve the Dutch people with it's higher education and science. Besides the lack of any plan, it should stop serving international shareholders, real estate speculators and everyone who would like to live here, which are millions and millions. If you claim an open economy and education system is serving the Dutch people, fine, make that case, why, how, and to which degree. But the holy GDP is not serving the Dutch, even GDP per capita is questionable.
I also came here because it's a friendly country to English speakers that might be unable or willing to learn the local language. Sweden was my second choice also because of that. As an EU citizen I was/am unable to move to US or Canada (otherwise I would have stayed in Vancouver instead). It's nice you can also study in English here. I didn't know it was that accessible as I didn't research it as studying wasn't my goal. Wow! I am impressed with the all information you are sharing here, thanks! I thought it would be hell to try to get another degree here.
Actually you could have come to Vancouver but you’d pay high tuition as a foreign student. There are thousands of (mainly Indian ) middle class students coming here every here to study it’s also a way to get eventual permanent residency. And yes the same shortage of housing is here too.
@@hirsch4155 Yes. And yes, studying there would now be a possibility if they still give you visas for "Canadian Experience" if you get a Master's even without a qualified job offer or a small fortune to invest on a new business. I remember housing being insanely expensive in Canada (Metro Van, at least). As an EU Citizen living for almost 6 years in NL it's very difficult to find a deal that makes it worth moving, even though I admit it's much more fun to live in Metro Van than here. Back then, when I really wanted to do what you say (study there) I couldn't afford it. Now that I can afford it (barely) it's not worth the risk. I currently like living here, but thankfully I don't need welfare or a job. I don't know what would happen if I needed either. But it wouldn't be better in Canada, I remember knowing people who just could not find ANY job even though they were applying to dozens a day, every day, being native, with a Canadian degree and experience on sales. I don't think it's that bad here in The Netherlands (if you speak Dutch, I hope to learn it before I really need it, if I ever need it), at least they advertise that some grocery stores will hire "anybody" for a trial and keep you if you work "well enough" (do the bare minimum etc). If a crisis comes where there's too many job applicants for each job position they'll also relax welfare requirements to match, so I don't think that would be a concern either, while in Canada I believe I'd have to fend for myself.
@@TheSimArchitect There are lots of jobs here unfortunately they are low level, for other positions it is really necessary to have a network and there is a lot of competition. Also the Netherlands has more positions anyway since the population is a lot bigger, even just the Holland provinces alone. Also, even in suburbs the housing is very expensive now, over 2000 CAD for a one bedroom , and then you’re looking at public transportation which isn’t as good for long distances , or long commutes by car.
Thanks for sharing! I think that's why most come here to study (at least those I talked to)-the NL is a welcoming country to English speakers. I think the challenge is helping people better integrate into society (and also retaining foreign students too) amongst the other challenges. Yeah it was a lot of information! So thanks for the kind words, makes it worth it for me!
Randomly suggested by youtube, I loved your video. You provided very witty arguments and topics. As a prospective student in the Netherlands, the housing crisis gives me nightmares. I just need to escape since Im getting my bachelor in Italy and the exams methodologies are taking a toll on my mental health; plus my boyfriend is half Dutch and we don't want to do long distance in the future. Unfortunately this is harder to do without a family that can provide for you, so Im gonna need to work part time, very likely in English: thats why I chose the Netherlands, even though I may not be able to afford rent. Part of me is calmer because Im in STEM and these fields always have some sort of shortage or job opportunity. I just hope everything works out but this is stupid to say when so many people are in the same situation.
Thanks for the kind words Martina, I appreciate it =) Are you hoping to do a Masters in the Netherlands or try to find work? If you're in STEM...there's always a job. And you can definitely get by with English here. The housing crisis is bad-in big cities. But it depends on where you live. Outside the cities, you can definitely find more housing. And I hope you take care of your mental health. I can understand how tough it is. Everything will work out in one way or another. That's my mentality. Wishing you well and wishing you best of luck too!
@@hidavidwen Id like to do my master's and then get into the job market. Thank you so much, however it goes I will have a story to tell. You are so kind to answer so many comments, major respect for you and your channel ❤️
@@martina_trees Good luck! I did a Master's here and found a job afterward. And thanks again =) It's a big reason why I continue making videos...to connect, learn from others, and hopefully help someone else out there...
Unpopular opinion maybe: but as a Dutch graduate I believe we built a system that's way too attractive for expats and foreign students, because their own systems aren't to favorable and well designed. But instead of protesting and redesigning their own country's educational/social system, they benefit and profit from our system. Inevitably this brings more competition on the housing and labor market. I have difficulty finding affordable housing while portugese, spanish or italian expats get 30% tax discount for 5 years, which gives them a financial advantage over me in the housing market. I think it's good to attract outsiders, but where does this 1,5 bn in revenue go? To me it feels like basic trickle down economics. Nice concept in theory but in reality not the whole country is benefiting, but mostly big corporate. To me it feels like the Netherlands is run like a big company only thinking about profit for the elite margins of society. It seems to be well designed, but it's done this way to accomodate capital accumulation. Build an attractive educational system to attract cheapish labor in a country that is a de facto tax paradise for big companies. I hope international students and expats remain, but in much lower quantities than before.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I can understand your thinking. And how countries are run like businesses. And well, when I think about businesses...there are a lot of "politics" involved. So I think they are both very much connected-politics (countries) and business. Which is the case when you have people with different views and power dynamics. As for the 30% tax discount and the 1.5 billion € from international students...yeah, I trust a lot of work has been put into that analysis from the government and people way smarter than me. How it works in practice...well, I don't know (maybe a government official can let us know haha). A question I'm wondering right now...on the opposite extreme is, what if there were 0 highly skilled internationals in this country? But I agree, there needs to be a balance
Beste David, Dank voor deze video. Ik heb al wat reacties van de Nederlanders hier gelezen en ik denk dat velen het wel met me eens zullen zijn: het is gewoon superirritant om in je eigen land de hele tijd Engels te moeten spreken. Geen een normaal land dat dit doet. Ik heb behalve in Nederland ook in Ecuador en in Canada gestudeerd. Eerst een cursus Spaans gevolgd hier en daarna in Quito. Zelfs Quichua gestudeerd. Ik ging immers onderzoek doen bij inheemse Quichua-sprekers. Spaans vond iedereen normaal. Quichua vonden zelfs de native-speakers raar maar dat krijg je als je een onderdrukte minderheid bent (ego-racisme is een groot probleem bij inheemse volken, ook in de VS en Canada). Zijn Nederlanders een onderdrukte minderheid in eigen land? Nee. Is Nederlands een moeilijke taal als je Engels spreekt? Nee. Kortom, er is geen enkele reden waarom expats en buitenlandse studenten geen Nederlands zouden leren. Wat mij betreft zijn jullie allemaal van harte welkom, daar gaat het niet om. Het gaat erom dat je te gast bent in een ander land waar ze een andere taal spreken dan de jouwe. Dat was ik ook in Ecuador en in Canada en dus investeerde ik tijd, moeite en geld om de lokale talen te leren. Niks vreemds aan. Zoals ik al zei is het superirritant om hier constant Engels te moeten spreken. Niet enkel op de universiteit, maar ook in winkelstraten, restaurants, cafés, etc... Niet omdat het een gezellige China Town is of omdat je op een plaats bent met vluchtelingen en immigranten die hier ook niet voor hun lol zijn... Nee, het gaat om vrij rijke, jonge en succesvolle, vaak hoog opgeleide mensen die simpelweg weigeren de lokale taal te leren. Uit gemakzucht en luiheid (iedereen spreekt toch Engels) en natuurlijk ook door de absurde politiek van universiteiten en bepaalde politici hier die vinden dat Nederlandse universiteiten koste wat kost op internationale lijstjes moeten staan. Echt, ik heb niks tegen het Engels, niks tegen buitenlandse studenten, niks tegen Engelstalige universiteitsboeken. Het Engels is nou eenmaal dankzij de macht van de VS en het internet de lingua franca, ook in de wetenschap. En daarom zal ik dit bericht ook in het Engels laten vertalen door DeepL (geen zin om het zelf te doen nu ;)). Echt, jullie zijn allemaal meer dan welkom. Maar net als mijn vorige commentaar bij het eten (snacks versus écht eten)... toon wat interesse in het land waar je bent, zeker als je slim, succesvol en rijk genoeg bent om in een ver buitenland te studeren.
Beste Lennert - bedankt voor het delen. Ik waardeer de tijd die je hebt genomen om dit te schrijven. Ten eerste ben ik onder de indruk dat je Quechua hebt geleerd! Ik herinner me dat ik een tijdje geleden Peru bezocht en wat leerde over het Quechua-volk/de cultuur. Ik zou op een dag graag meer tijd in dat deel van de wereld doorbrengen... Ik ben het ermee eens dat mensen de tijd “moeten” nemen om te proberen de taal te leren als ze besluiten langer in het buitenland te blijven. Het is alleen respectvol. De uitdaging waar de meeste internationals voor staan, is dat de meesten niet de kans krijgen om de taal te gebruiken of te oefenen, tenzij je baan dit vereist of je een Nederlandse partner hebt. Velen willen de taal wel leren, maar vinden geen kansen. Wat je bijvoorbeeld in een grote stad aantreft, is dat de helft van de mensen die overschakelen naar het Engels als ze horen dat je niet de moedertaal bent. In mijn geval (heel specifiek) zullen mensen de helft van de tijd in het Engels tegen me praten omdat ik er niet Nederlands uitzie (mijn vriend die Chinees-Nederlands is, snapt dit ook). Dit is natuurlijk een uitdaging en mag geen excuus zijn om de taal te leren. En dan heb je nog een groep die gewoon niet wil leren. Doet me ook denken aan een verwant onderwerp van "Hoe motiveer je mensen om gedrag te veranderen of over te nemen?" Een actie of gedrag dat natuurlijk voordelen zal hebben. Ik denk dat wat mij en de meeste mensen uiteindelijk helpt, is te zien hoe het leren van een taal mensen echt kan helpen om op een dieper niveau contact te maken met anderen en de cultuur. Om te integreren en een andere, meer bijzondere ervaring te hebben. Natuurlijk kunnen we mensen dwingen om te leren... dat is een manier... waarschijnlijk niet de beste manier. Maar hoe denk je dat we mensen kunnen “motiveren” om Nederlands te leren? 🙏= David
@@hidavidwen Beste David, Jij ook hartelijk bedankt voor je lange antwoord. Over Nederlanders die meteen switchen (Nederlands woord😉) naar het Engels vanwege iemands uiterlijk kan ik kort zijn: die mensen zijn t meestal niet waard om bevriend mee te zijn. Een vriendin van me is als 2-jarige geadopteerd uit Korea en woont dus al ongeveer 50 jaar in Nederland. Nog steeds zijn er idioten die dingen zeggen als "Goh, jij spreekt goed Nederlands zeg! Waar heb je dat geleerd!" en, als ze zegt dat ze uit Utrecht komt, "nee, dat bedoel ik niet... Waar kom je ECHT vandaan??" Dat soort mensen... Niet interessant. Echt. Ook mensen die switchen omdat ze menen te horen dat je niet 100% Nederlands spreekt... Ook die mensen zijn t niet waard, echt. Ze zouden waarschijnlijk zelf best eens wat lessen mogen nemen. Hoe vaak komt het niet voor dat zelfs Vlamingen in Amsterdam antwoord krijgen in het Engels omdat men blijkbaar te dom is om te horen dat er Nederlands gesproken wordt! Kortom, negeer hen en blijf gewoon Nederlands praten. Echt, er zijn veel meer mensen die dat geweldig vinden en mooi en fijn, dan andersom. Net als andere mensen op deze wereld waarderen de meesten het enorm als er moeite wordt gedaan om de lokale taal te spreken. Nog een voorbeeld : er wonen zoals je weet best wat mensen in de randstad met een Turkse of Marokkaanse achtergrond. Ook zijn er bepaalde politici (en echt niet enkel bij extreem rechts), die vinden dat deze mensen Nederlands horen te spreken. Ik zie niet in waarom we dat wel zouden eisen van Turkse en Marokkaanse Nederlanders en niet van expats die hier al 5, 10 of 15 jaar wonen. Persoonlijk (en dat heeft weinig met politiek te maken voor mij), ga ik veel liever naar de Turkse bakker die mij in het Nederlands helpt dan naar de koffiebar where even the Dutch word for coffee, apparently, is too difficult! Mijn moeder is Frans. Zij is zelf ook ooit expat geweest (in een tijd dat dat woord nog niet eens bestond) en heeft zo snel mogelijk Nederlands geleerd. Ze spreekt het zo goed dat de meeste mensen niet horen dat ze niet uit Nederland komt. Ook voor haar is het heel raar dat ze opeens Engels moet gaan spreken in bepaalde delen van Amsterdam. Zoals veel Fransen is ze daar sowieso niet erg goed in ;) maar dat is niet de hoofdreden. Ze snapt niet dat mensen blijkbaar niet meer kunnen of willen wat zij wel heeft gedaan. Het feit dat veel Nederlanders te automatisch switchen naar het Engels mag, vind ik, geen excuus zijn om dan maar geen Nederlands te leren of te spreken. Als ze dat doen, blijf gewoon koppig Nederlands tegen ze spreken, zeg dat je dat wilt. Dat je 't niet voor niks geleerd hebt of aan 't leren bent. Je zal zien dat dat uiteindelijk wel begrepen wordt. En mocht je een goeie truc nodig hebben (werkt heel goed en is van een Braziliaanse expat-vriendin van me). Zeg niet: "ik spreek geen/een beetje Nederlands" maar zeg (met je beste fake Franse, Braziliaanse, Turkse, Chinese, etc-accent) : "oh... Eeh... No... No ai not spiek ienglish gooduh.. Iesse diefiekult for mie, ze ienglish !... ... Maar ik spreek wel Nederlands!" Echt, gegarandeerd succes! 😂😂😂
What has been reported within Dutch media is that Universities are financially incentivized to increase their number of students, as it correlates into the amount of subsidies from the central government. English courses was a great way to increase their pool of students, because of the attraction of foreign students, therefor the total amount. But one complaint from students was that the lecturers didn't have the language skills to adequately give that course. Im assuming that the overall amount of native dutch speaking teachers is significantly bigger than the amount of foreign teachers, therefore less english courses might have a net positive effect in education quality overall within the country. Another drawback reported from both students and teachers is that there were too many students for the amount of teachers and facilities. Teachers work too many hours and student dont get the amount of attention they need. Resulting in overall decrease of (perceived) education quality. I see you find educator and student needs important, so try to take this point into consideration.
Thanks for sharing your point of view. I do know Dutch universities get money from the government based on how many students they have...of course there's business involved =) As a former student...I can understand what it feels like to be in a "packed classroom." Well, it seems like we will see what happens. I'm sure-like everything-there will be continuous changes as they launch, get data/feedback, etc and hope it benefits everyone in the end
What i think more of this is that a lot foreigners do not want to integrate into Dutch society. Despite our level of English, that doesn't mean i want to speak English to you for your convenience in this country. And that sentiment is also shared by the majority of Dutch people. All and all, it seems that the Dutch language is barely spoken these days just because foreigners having a free pass to come here without giving back to society without being properly integrated. Students may think nothing of this, but this problem will definitely disrupt Dutch society into a foreigners led economy that only a few benefit from. I don't blame the foreigners for this, i blame the policy makers allowing this to happen without the potential long term consequences, this is all orchestrated without any long term plan to tackle these problems.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Yeah from doing the research, I don't think the policy makers had a plan to handle this "internationalization" And students should not be blamed...I mean, if I was an 18-years old university student...I am only thinking about education/university/a new life...not all this "internationalization" stuff
The international students, at least those that are not from the EU, pay SO MUCH for their education in the Netherlands, compared to their EU peers. All international students bring so much diversity to the university experience, both academically and socially. It is quite bitter to see international students being blamed so much for the housing problem in this economy, while we all know that there are so many other factors than that. It's not like international students have an easier time finding accommodations either, not to mention the requirements for an international student to be admitted into WOs are significantly stricter.
When did International students got the blame for the housing problem? It is due to the housing problem which is why internationals (also Dutch students in general) have difficulties in finding a space.
@truthseeker881 But they do. It is not news that international students and international professionals got a lot of hate for taking up Dutch resources.
@@voan8315 Hate? You mean they get identified as the problem for housing, resources, infrastructure, education level they are? What is the idea behind this spending of tax money? By changing respected 4 centuries old institutions like that?
Thanks for sharing. I do agree that internationals bring a lot to the university experience (I am so happy I got to study with so many nationalities especially in the Netherlands’ problem based learning study environment where you learn from each other). The housing thing…yeah it’s even harder for internationals. I don’t think it should be blamed on students (students don’t know any better…they apply for education)…but they are an easy scapegoat which is unfortunate. That’s a whole bigger topic…housing..housing isn’t being built fast enough (due to many reasons)
@@hidavidwen They are not a scapegoat, they are a material part of the problem, and they should know better. Studying in a foreign country is not for children. Sorry, but students who come unprepared, didn't even bother with an internet search, and then claim a Dutch municipality should house them, that's simply far too entitled for me. Housing not being build fast enough for what? For whom? I don't want fast build houses, in a country with so little space houses should be build for centuries to come. If it has to be broken down in a few decades, you'll have a hole in the city and a place where no one can live for years in the future again. I don't want my country to become a city state, it was democratically decided upon that the Netherlands wasn't nor would become an immigration country. Immigrants often have this idea that have to be pro more and more immigration because it's only fair that others can have what they had too. That's not a bad sentiment, on the contrary, but it's also a bit like bringing all your friends to a party only you were invited for. Considering yourself as one of the lucky few, of the last generation of mass immigration, might also be an option.
Thanks for an insightful video as usual. I however find the comments are a bit lack of perspective when it comes to non-EU students. As an international non-EU student when being at uni I expressed my interest in learning Dutch however my uni doesn’t offer or costs around hundred to a thousand to participate. With many students who come here to study with a small budget, this money is definitely a lot for us to pay if it is not included or introduced in our program. This leads to internationals cannot or are not willing to learn the language and results in us leaving the country when we finished our studies because Dutch employers prefer you to have sufficient Dutch. I’m appreciate that the Netherlands offer English courses for us students who cannot afford American or other English speaking countries’ education. Unfortunately, without universities to step up and stop admitting too many international students to maintain the quality and housing in that cities. Problems like these will keep happening and you can’t blame everything on internationals.
Thanks for the kind words and thanks for sharing your perspective as a non-EU student! That's a very important perspective...it's not cheap to learn the language...and if you're already paying international fees..I hope they make it easier for people to learn the language (and affordable)
9:11 de hoeveelheid internationale studenten is in de afgelopen 20 jaar gestegen en het personeel tekort ook. Ik denk niet dat internationale studenten het probleem helpen oplossen, in het begin misschien wel. ik denk dat het grootste gedeelte van het personeel tekort nu in de lager opgeleide banen zit. meestal heb je hier geen Engelse opleiding voor omdat je Nederlands moet spreken om het werk uit te kunnen voeren.
I am a professional and certified secondary school Teacher in my country, I am also in contact with Dienst Uitvoering Onderwijs for a teaching qualification. I'm looking forward to teaching in the Netherlands. You made mention of shortage of Teachers in the Netherlands, so in other words, I should try as much as possible to land a teaching job ?
There is a huge shortage of teachers in primary and secondary education. I would think you would need to learn the Dutch language to be a teacher...but if you do, I would imagine there will be jobs for you!
Like you said, it comes down to housing, and that's stagnating because of the environment. At least, that's one way of looking at it and trying to find the root cause. Timing is difficult as everything seems to need our attention right now.
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, housing is one big cause. There are other factors. Politics too =/ But I hope they come to a solution that works for both students and educators
The bigger issue at hand is the privatization of housing. As something absolutely necessary for survival, it is disgusting that it is then used to generate profit (and subsequently controlling who lives where). This is something that affects all those who must rent. Decommodification is the first step to this issue being solved. That as well as the halting of evictions in general and of squats, especially because many students rely on them for mere survival in the present conditions.
You mentioned in the video that international students fill in gaps in the market. But nowadays those gaps are in the low/mid levels of education and healthcare, positions where its most often required to have a good understanding of the dutch language. In short, the gaps that need to be filled can’t be filled by internationals.
Thanks for sharing. You have a point. I'm looking at the data now... - Software developers - Data specialists - Nurses - Engineers - Logistics people -Technicians - Finance/economists etc Yep many of them are only for 'locals' but I would assume quite a few of them-the IT/technical ones could be filled by anyone with that talent eures.ec.europa.eu/living-and-working/labour-market-information/labour-market-information-netherlands_en
DAVID, hi,. why tbe incessant background music? excellent subject and script but bgmusic is for many people highly DISTRACTING , no matter what level its mixed in at. WHY do you do it? ---
Hi Andrew - thanks for the feedback. Background music can add a certain feeling to the "story" just like there is music in movies...so I thought to include it. But I get it...it can be distracting too and I didn't realize...so thanks for the feedback.
@@hidavidwenYes it works in films because they spend millions on custom scores of great music that matches or enhances the story. What you and others do is just - i assume - find some cheap/free music that has none of those qualities. like you in your university classes, I come to RU-vid to learn from people like you. Did they play incessant distracting music in your Maastricht classes all the time?If not why do you think they didn't ? thanks for engaging, I hope to hear more from you. do you think you would get complaints from listeners if you saved yourself some work and put out a few videos free of background music? I spend a lot of time listening (hardly ever watching) material on RU-vid and the issue of background music has a huge negative effect in my life, so I'd really like to understand Why creators assume their audiences want incessant cheap crap music? Andrew.
@@hidavidwen from news I've seen, the universities are concerned about the number of programmes offered in English and how that is impacting the Finnish language, so they want to curtail the number and extent of the programmes in English or install a Finnish language requirement. At a different level, I know that immigrants/refugees struggle to get the Finnish language requirement (must be done within three years) and also to access educational programmes - especially higher education - which interest them because many of the basic educational programmes and planning is geared to "we need bus drivers and nursing staff" or trades such as caterers, travel guides, carpenters, plumbers and electricians - which from my perspective as a grandmother of four, the latter trades seem to be for young "Finnish" people who didn't do quite so well in middle school.
Lot’s of us just want quality education domestically. Not only that most courses are hard to get in for people considering due to the tuition fees paid by Non-EU students is higher so more favorable. Additionally international students don’t even bother really to mingle with Dutch students and don’t bother learning Dutch either. I absolutely do not mind international students studying here but I feel like just in Japan or other countries there needs to be a fixed amount of admissions a year and more quality Dutch courses because at the end of the day the Dutch students are practically entitled go quality education in their own country
Thanks for sharing your perspective and opinion. I can understand your concern. I am not sure that Non-EU students take the spots of regular Dutch students-at least nothing I've read about in the research studies. If you have something you can share, please share because I'd love to learn more. Here's an interesting reddit thread about why international students don't learn Dutch if you want to to read (quite interesting and insightful to give you an idea): www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/15pdrz7/why_dont_foreigners_international_student_learn/ But yeah, we can both agree on quality education for students. I also hope for the best outcome for the students
Eigenlijk is het idee dat je veel nationaliteiten moet hebben om universiteiten zo divers mogelijk te maken vrij simplistisch.🤔 Naast dat het de vraag is in welke mate universiteiten er voor het land zijn als ze volledig Engels- en dus anderstalig zijn, wordt bij diversiteit alleen naar kleur en sexuele voorkeur gekeken. Universiteiten zijn cultureel vrij uniform en weinig diepgaand: rijke mensen die Engels spreken en zichzelf geweldig vinden+studenten uit de middeklasse die zich daartussen wurmen door zich ook zo te gedragen. Daardoor krijg je rare situaties als een rijkeluisdochter uit India die een Nederlandse jongen uit de middenklasse, die gewoon bij zijn ouders in een rijtjeshuis woont, een lezing gaat geven over armoede. De regionale en klassegerelateerde culturele verschillen binnen het land, die er bestuurlijk en in het dagelijks leven wel degelijk toe doen en veel mensen buiten de universitaire wereld belangrijk zijn, worden volledig genegeerd of als minderwaardig afgedaan. Ik kan, door verhuizing en het studeren op verschillende plekken, straks met zowel Belgen als zwaar gereformeerden samenwerken, omdat mijn familie van oorsprong uit katholiek gebied, met name Brabant komt en ik ben opgegroeid in een door protestanten gedomineerde omgeving vlak bij de bijbelbelt. Dat kunnen weinig mensen zeggen. Daarnaast zijn de plaatsten waar ik opgegroeid ben klein en kom je dus gewoon met alle sociale klassen samen in de wijk, op school, in de stad en op de sportclub. Waarom is dat minder divers dan een internationale student uit een hoog milieu uit een (gesegregeerde) stad die tijdens de studie in een ander land ook in de hoge kringen van een (gesegregeerde) stad verblijft?😅 De kans is groot aanwezig dat die internationale minder talen spreekt, gezien Engels, Frans en Duits verplicht zijn op de middelbare. Ware taal het argument voor, dan zou ik uitleg in het Nederlands en bij de oefeningen ook een paar oefeningen in het Engels, Duits en Frans doen, zodat je de stof begrijpt én al je vreemde talen blijft gebruiken.🤔
The way I understand the government's proposal, is to increase the number of international students staying in the Netherlands after completing their studies. 20 years ago, the goal of attracting more students in the universities was to increase the number of university educated people in the Netherlands, but in reality most international students return to their country of origin after their study. By requiring students to learn dutch the government intends to increase the number of students that stay in the Netherlands.
I think that is a goal of the government...how to better integrate/retain foreign students. Idea has good intentions...but the implementation won't come without costs (which universities have voiced)... I just hope whatever happens it will be the best for students/educators
Internationals stay if they find a job. If not - they go home. And you have to remember quality of life too. If Dutch people are leaving the country because of expensive housing and high cost of living- why expect an international to stay in the country in the first place?
lots of Germans study in the Netherlands too because they don't have good enough grades to study their preferred subject in Germany and it's easier to get into university in the Netherlands!
I am literally at the cusp of deciding where to apply to masters as I’m currently a senior also part of the UC system (go slugs!) and applying to Delft and TU/e in the Netherlands is my top choice. I decided on the Netherlands because of all the reasons you listed plus all the other amenities that I wouldn’t have access to working here in the US. It’s really disheartening to hear that they are limiting the number of international students, hopefully they can learn from the Danes and see that such a strategy doesn’t work, and to rather focus on the real problem.
Thanks for sharing. It’s still not final yet…but it shouldn’t affect you as a Masters student (it only affects Bachelors at the moment…I should add that) Best of luck, the education here is high quality
The problem is, that the real problem, housing, does not have a solution. Mainly due to too much nitrogen in the environment, due to agriculture and being a very densely populated country.
Hi great video! Do you plan on staying in the Netherlands? Im curious about how many international students in the Netherlands eventually stay to live out their lives here.
My country the Netherlands should be very selective in who comes over here if you want to come over here for study and work and be a true asset to the Netherlands you are more than welcome over here if not than sorry it sounds harsh but we need to be realistick we can not save the whole world unfortunately so if you are an asset to this country than once again you are more than welcome. Other than that a great video David keep up the great work👍 En nog een prettige dag toegewenst😊
Thanks for sharing. And for the kind words. I get it...the country/universities could do a better job selecting the right people to come study/work here. Another idea that many people have added is to also help foreign students "stay", integrate, and contribute to the country after graduation too...to retain the (good) students because many of them leave...I don't know what that looks like, but I hope the people working in education do Dankje...een fijne zomer gewenst! (I hope the sun comes back soon)
I’d say housing is a big issue. I myself am Dutch and have the idea that international students are prioritised when it comes to finding an apartment/ place to stay. I get it, they can’t really go anywhere. But it comes at the cost of Dutch students, I had to travel daily 400km (~5.5/6hrs) to go to school for six months as I was unable to get housing. I don’t mind it that the courses are in English, and I see that the housing crisis is a real problem. But for me it feels like internationals play quite a significant role in it as well.
Thanks for sharing and I can understand the whole housing thing myself-I don't think it's the language thing (the Dutchies I've talked to all preferred to study in English and it had no impact on their Dutch skills...I mean they still spoke it outside the classroom of course)-I also think it's the housing thing. It's also really hard for internationals to find housing (my own perspective) coming from abroad-I literally found a dorm room 1 week before my flight. But I also feel the frustration...6 hours to go to school for 6 months...that's hard =( I'm sorry you went through that.
I am a bit conflicted on this one. On the one hand I am very much in favor of keeping education highly accessible and affordable to both Dutch and international students. The alternative is to discriminate against the poor and it is detrimental in the long run. Attracting smart people from many different backgrounds is a good thing. The idea that we should just teach classes in Dutch and that that will solve things is also kind of maddening. At least at the MSc level, English classes are a boon for Dutch students as well. Proper English speaking skills are vital in the academic community and increasingly in the general job market, and this could therefore also impact Dutch students negatively. OTOH I know people who have lived here for more than a decade and don't speak enough Dutch to hold a simple conversation. That's also not ideal as it creates a barrier between the international community and Dutch society. But the housing situation has been completely insane. Something has to be done to limit the number of admissions. I don't think this is a good way to do it, but we can't very well let people live on the street. Now that Leiden, Den Haag and Amsterdam are filled to the brim the small towns in the surrounding countryside are being increasingly overrun by students as well. PT is overcrowded and housing costs are skyrocketing. This is creating significant societal issues. I don't see how we can fix that in the short term other than by discouraging people from coming here. Until more affordable housing has been built, there have to be some limits somehow.
Thanks for sharing your perspective 🙏 What do you think is the "solution" to achieving better integration between the international and Dutch communities? (I mean this is also true for any big international city in the world too-I'm genuinely curious...are there any countries/cities that have handled this "integration" well?) And the housing thing...I think this is one that many agree on (it being a big problem that needs a solution)...but seems like it's "nothing new" (the housing crisis according to many commenters)...and there are many delays to the government's plans to build more housing (and of course there are politics involved too)
@@hidavidwen The housing crisis has been an issue for a while, but certainly in Leiden the issue has gotten far worse over the last 5 years or so. It doesn't help that rentierism and exploitation of housing as investments has been on the rise. They're going to implement more rent control measures in 2024 to discourage exploitative behavior by investors, but... as long as the neoliberals are in charge, seeing is believing, frankly. Either way, just making classes Dutch again as if that's a solution to the housing issue seems very regressive and a bit myopic. With regards to integration, honestly I have no great insight as to what the best solution might be. The problem is present on both sides of the isle. Clearly it is difficult for internationals (and for the Dutch, actually) to get into a Dutch social circle. When it comes to language, the Dutch have a tendency to switch to English anyway when conversational skills are not optimal. While it is well intentioned, it discourages and complicates language learning and makes integration more difficult. There are taalmaatjes of course, and there are some language meetups here that can help, but they are organized mostly by expats. From the international side it seems there is also a bit of a tendency for people from various nationalities to seek out their own nationalities (an Italian girl once told me "all Italians cluster together", referring to this tendency, and I have heard mythical tales of the Greek community in Leiden from a Greek friend, but have yet to spot it; same for various other nationalities - a natural tendency I guess). It would be nice if we could find ways to encourage more mixing of Dutch and expat communities but you can't really force people to hang out. I go to meetups and such and there are a few Dutch people there now (almost none pre-pandemic), so who knows, maybe there will be a bit more mixing going on. For students, I think one big issue is that many Dutch students socialize mainly in their fraternities and sororities so they're already kind of removed from the international students. Maybe there's room there to encourage more integration with the international community? As an expat and former international student, are there any particular roadblocks that you are aware of or other areas where our government or community could help with integration?
Nice video. International student here. I think that merely *out of respect*, if you plan to do a fulltime studies in a country you should learn the language that is spoken in said country. For exchange students I'd say it's different since they only come to the country to live a shorter period of time, however. I don't care that the program is in English or that the people /can/ communicate in English, it is detrimental to the country's culture and identity to have a big number of people living and fulltime studying and or working in the country that can't communicate, understand the local news, speak with elderly people and so on. Having a basic level of B1.1 of the country's official language should be mandatory by the time of graduating or even applying.
Thanks Rafael for sharing. And awesome that you've been able to get to B1 level. It's great to hear your story so others can learn from it. However, as you may know, there is a difference between "principle" and "reality." In principle, everyone should learn. Why don't people learn it? Here's a recent reddit thread with some responses = www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/15pdrz7/why_dont_foreigners_international_student_learn/
Thanks for the reddit threat and elaborated response, it was so considerate. I'll read some testimonies when i go to bed. I'm sure you'll grow far in youtube with such attitude. Best wishes. @@hidavidwen
If you ask me, one should never save on education. The big problem is housing. And to me it's not the students that come here that are the problem, but in general too many foreigners that come here (or even are here already). 18 million+ people in The Netherlands, of which probably less than 12 Million are dutch. I could go on on this subject, but in general housing is the problem. Saving on education will be a problem in the future, while housing will on be a bigger problem for the future. So patching a problem for now is never a good solution. 150000 international students is nothing compared to other reasons why foreigners come here. Our government needs to focus on the real problem and solve that.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Yeah, there are bigger problems in the country like housing. (There are 15 million Dutch people in the NL according to the country's bureau of statistics)
you should analyze better. the job market in Germany is of course much better, simply, because its much bigger. much bigger means that you also have much more ppl competing with jobs but nevertheless for an individuum its is more likely to get something out of a big pool than a small one - especially if one is better than the average (could even be just putting more effort into such tasks). and you have much more diversity/options for specific jobs from a big pool than a smaller one. i talk here of course about two quite comparable countries (regarding culture, development, wealth etc). Nigeria for instance is also big but the jobmarket is worse since less developed ...
another mistake you (like most) made is not reflecting the world's view. if you are in China or India and say you have studied in the Netherlands then most ppl would not know if that is good or bad. They might guess thats good if you associate it with Europe but nothing more specific. Thats similar to the experience people from Austria make if traveling the world. Only if they say something like 'kind of German' then you get some recognition. This means: from a strategic point of view its always better if you studied in Germany, UK, USA or Japan. Even if your university was shit like hell and you were an average student. And if you did not study in Oxford, Cambridge, Havard or MIT then even for more educated people in China or India it doesnt matter where you have studied, because they also could not associate much with your university. This means: most associate your country, not the university. For tactical reasons at least the association with a known city might help which means, studying in Amsterdam gives more reputation than studying in Maastrich. Just like saying 'I studied at the University of Kairo' sounds better than 'I studied at the 'University of Witwatersrand' (which is in Johannisburg)- even if the latter ranks better. All of that is not fair and not true for more specific contexts (people who are more into specific fields like Medicine should know about the University of Heidelberg as hotspot) but in general it is.
1. Most Dutchies speak English VERY well 2. If you put in the effort and are a gifted learner (those top tier employees...), you will be able to succeed in Dutch 3. If everybody came to study in the Netherlands because it was inexpensive, it would be too full 4. The Netherlands is awesome. Dutch is also awesome. Be grateful that Dutchies are so openminded that there are even English classes... because really if you have such a nice society and geweldige taal you do really not really need to open up to other languages and cultures! Yet... being so awesome, kind, wholesome and everything that is good there are so much opportunities that are extended to people who are not Dutch!!! I mean. We are renting right now and the moment we buy a house, I plan to make a room available at an affordable price... not to make my mortage lower, but to give back. I have been so extremely fortunate for all the opportunities given to me and everything this country is making possible for me that I want to give back. I truly think we should be grateful. I am from South Africa, a Dutch/Javanese/German/Afrikaans boer mixture... so I am not even a Dutchie, still I can see and appreciate the tremendous generousity they have. I do not know if I would have such open arms if my country was as highly populated and just getting fuller. If you want to complain or do not want to learn Dutch, fit in, make a difference in society or you think it should be cheap and/or free then..??? Not really appreciating the opportunity that is made possible to you.
I honestly really don't like how the government has handled the universities, one year after I started my university (Wageningen) converted most of their bachelors to English to appeal to the international market, this came with some hiccups but eventually I think it worked out for the better for most programs, now the government want it all to go back to Dutch. This flat out makes no sense at all, every Dutch university student speaks perfect English and learning Dutch is horrible for most international students so I am really against the bill they're pushing trough right now
Thanks for sharing your perspective as a (former?) student. Yeah changing back and forth has a big psychological impact on people…students and educators…I hope they take that into consideration…
@hidavidwen I really hope so too but if I'm honest I've lost confidence in a lot of aspects of the government so I hope this is not another one of those
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 01:28 🎓 The number of international students in the Netherlands has significantly increased, with 122,000 international students in 2022, making up 15% of the total student population. 02:36 🌍 The Netherlands offers a wide range of English-taught programs and has a highly international environment, making it an attractive destination for students from around the world. 04:16 💰 Tuition fees in the Netherlands are relatively low compared to countries like the US or the UK, making it an affordable option for international students. 08:06 🇪🇺 The Dutch government plans to limit the number of international students by reducing the number of English courses and potentially requiring students to learn Dutch. 11:35 🇩🇰 Denmark's experience with limiting international students resulted in a decline in applications for specific programs and a labor shortage, prompting them to reconsider their approach. Made with HARPA AI
I want to ask a question as an Egyptian student from Africa who is studying IGCSE I took its objects and I think I got 7 or 6 of them really good marks so is it easy for me to apply for universities in Netherland or I should take more subjects to make it easier for me so what is your opinion
I don't know because I am not familiar with the Egyptian system...but best of luck to you, I'd encourage you to just apply and see what happens (that's what I did)
Hi David, thanks much for these insights. I was wondering whether Netherland is a right destination for me or not. Howver, I have France and Ireland on my list. Can you please share your thoughts in short. Thanks in advance
Hi - thanks for writing. Oh this depends on so many things haha-are you looking to study? Work? What's your goal? I can only share that I would generally recommend the Netherlands as a great place to study/work/live if that's your goal. Yes-there are challenges but there are many more benefits than challenges. It's a beautiful country. I cannot compare it to France or Ireland as I don't have experience in those countries
I think they should tackle the housing crisis rather than limit foreign students... I'd rather foreigners come here, study, and then get "hooked" and spent the rest of their lives contributing towards our common good here in the netherlands, than to make a dirty bandaid solution which let's be fair, isn't going to fix anything really.
Well, I kind of agree with your analysis. The student problem is triggered as a spin off of the housing crisis, that is made worse by the fact that the Netherlands is a very popular immigration country. So, if I have to set priorities, I would say housing is a basic human right. Studying is not. I hate to set that priority, but the housing crisis does not seem to have a solution for the foreseeable future. So, we must set priorities. Also, education is still national tax funded. Even out of EU/EEA area students are heavily sponsored, they only pay a fraction of the cost. So, by that measure, it is own people first. I would be in favor of global funding (by the UN) of all education in the world. But that is utopian.
I'm sorry but where did you get the information that non EU/EEA students are sponsored and that they only pay a fraction of the fees? I'm a non EU student and I pay full fees to be able to study in the Netherlands. As is the case with almost all non EU/EEA students. An exception is where a student studies with a scholarship which is rare in the Netherlands. But they are certainly not heavily sponsored. The scholarships do not cover a lot and it does not cover for the entire length of the programme.
@@keziacherian541 Long ago, when I was a student, we were told by the faculty professor at the University of Amsterdam that we had to drink as much as possible from the tree of wisdom (the university) because the tax payer paid 250.000 guilders for medicine students, 200.000 guilders a year for beta students (physics and chemistry) and 100.000 guilders a year for social studies. Accept that gift and enjoy it, was his message. Now, a guilder had at conversion to Euro a value of 0.4 Euro. So if I correct for inflation you can say that approximately guilder = euro.
@@ronaldderooij1774 A human right is a legal and moral concept that is universal by nature of there being humans. People calling rights or claims 'human rights' to express how strongly they feel about it is very much in fashion, but also diluting the value of human rights.
there is no use to having foreign students if they just pick up and leave to their own country we invest in them with subsidized cheap studies with public money without them investing in The Netherlands. The most detramental thing is most university teachers speaking bad english with heavy dutch accesnts. Make it optional not mandatory to follow dutch courses in english or dutch
I've already seen this happening at TU Delft in Computer Science. Next year they've planned on having a 50-50 split of Dutch to internationals, which I think ultimately is stupid. Universities like TU Delft only end up being best in Europe when they harvest the best students from all countries, which sadly, very often is not Dutch students. This is pretty obvious in drop-out rates and the grades received in the selection procedures. I study Aerospace Engineering at TU Delft, and a large sum of Dutch students get into the course solely off of their "Motivation" grade for the entrance exam (effectively whether they visited all of the open days and events, tailored to give Dutch students an advantage) whilst scoring low and even below average in the academic sectors. It's quite frankly insane that the Dutch government is trying to limit the thing that makes these universities the best in Europe. Instead of evading the problem by trying to get rid of students, they should think about building more housing.... Thankfully I was admitted before all of these shenanigans started heating up, but the way they're approaching this is fundamentally wrong (my opinion).
If I understand you situation correctly, the current government has fallen over several issues like this therefore, the policy, at least, for the moment will not be implemented and may not be implemented, depending on how her future election goes!!.
1year master seems nice but especially in restricted professions theyre not recognized in another/other country/ies where they require 2year masters (for example psychology in germany). i was a german student in the netherlands 2013-2017 in a dutch program. netherlands are actually expensive for germans because for EU-people its like 2000€/year, when in germany i would have payed less than half of it (and free public transport included). but i went to art school and the netherlands are just better in art than germans haha. i came back to germany to complete a masters in a slightly different field (art history), because its not so specific than art itself, wouldnt pay that much for that degree lol. if the dutch need more teachers, i can come over, i even speak dutch.. 😂 still im a part of the statistics, i find it weird that nearly half of the students are international, didnt know that, maybe because i was in a dutch program and academy only offering dutch programs. but im also an advocat of not accepting borders as gatekeepers for diversity, so please international people, keep coming and preferably stay. and yes, in germany you have to speak german to get by and be actually employable...
Thanks for sharing! Especially since you were an international student (from Germany). Curious...did you learn Dutch before starting your studies? How was it integrating with the Dutch students/society? I think that's a big point of discussion (the Dutch language requirement)... Also...did you think about staying in the Netherlands to work? It'd be very valuable to get your input!
@@hidavidwen i took a 4week course before starting and got A2, which was the requirement at that time. dutch is incredibly similar to german so rather easy. now with the finished bachelor i can also apply to other dutch speaking countries and courses (eg belgium) because its now considered B2. the school was great, i was in a very privileged situation because its a small school, small groups, very artsy people, so it was nice. by speaking dutch even better. theres very good teacher student relationship, so you have to talk a lot in the arts, not only writing and listening. there were no multiple choice or written tests, just art stuff with vocal presentation and essays. since i decided to do a masters before applying to any jobs, i dont know about the job market. i just know that art and art history are not very good for finding a well paying career haha. some of the other students, mostly the dutch, went on to do an additional teaching course/study. two germans stayed permanently in the netherlands as fulltime visual artists, so i guess its possible~ im actually considering going back there since i finished my masters last year. i will have a look at the job market 🤷🏼♂️
@@neredan1182 Thanks for sharing. What I've learned so far in my career is...unless you want to be a doctor or something very specialized, it doesn't really matter what you study. I know "art" majors who are working in tech now. Most people I know are working in a profession that is different from what they studied (after 10 years). =)
I don't think it is a good idea to revert courses back to Dutch, it will hinder the quality of the course and the research on most topics is exclusively presented in English. But I do support the requirement that international students should be learning Dutch. The main labour shortages that we are facing in the Netherlands are in sectors like: healthcare and childcare, the police, public transport. There is less need for highly educated people, especially since the Dutch themselves are often highly educated. The Netherlands is extremely densely populated (4 times more then Denmark). Climate issues like nitrogen are contributing to the restrictions on housing and the refugee crisis is also ongoing. The housing crisis is fuelled by a lot of different factors, everyone in the country is affected by it, especially Dutch students and people at the start of their career. If a foreign student decides to study here, we should ensure that this person has the same likelihood that they will continue to contribute to the economy as another person that could have access to the same housing. Learning Dutch is essential to integrate into the society. Therefore I agree with the government that the area of international students as well as highly educated expats from the developed world is an area in which requirements should be strict.
