Why did Muslim civilisation fall behind the West? Mustafa Akyol & Dr. Abdullah Ali discuss 

Eid-ul-adha Mubarak to all my brothers and sisters who are celebrating 💚

The modern Muslim author, S.E. Al-Djazairi, has written quite a lot of books on this topic :D "The Golden Age and Decline of Islamic civilisation" in three volumes, and "The Hidden Debt to Islamic civilisation" in five volumes. He uses a wide array of sources, focusing on old contemporary accounts, and using non-Muslim as well as Muslim sources. If anyone wants to understand Islamic history better, Al-Djazairi's books are the some of the very best out there.

Thank you Mr. Paul. You always address the most interesting topics. Aid Mubarak to you, to your family and to all Muslims 😊❤

Discussion is definitely better than debate. Thank you.

There were a number of ahistorical misstatements made in this discussion. Al-Ma'mun who was the first Abbasid sultan who championed Mu'talizah wasn't a champion of freedom of religion and thought; he ordered the killing of members of the Prophet's progeny and imprisoned and tortured Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal for disagreeing with the belief of the creation of the Qur'an. His Mu'tazilah successor al-Mu'tasim was just as much of an oppressor to freedom of thought. I'm really suprised by Mr. Aykol's argument.

The west's advancement was majorly driven by colonialism, imperialism & industrialization. 1700s was the time when west began to ascend and the Muslim nations went into stagnation.

I remember watching a debate between Mustafa akyol and Abdullah al andalusi that took place 10 years ago It's baffling to me that Mr. Akyol has not changed his ideas and arguments specially when his arguments have been dealt with for God knows how long.

Need more dialogues between modernists and traditionalists like this instead of the garbage hand-waving both sides do which implies they can't engage in this dialectic.

So many good videos lately Paul, I'm trying to catch up because I rewatch each video a couple of times. Keep it up!

Dear Paul, With Allah’s blessings I have made duas for you yesterday on the day of Arafa in Makkah. Today i’m in Mina and remembering you in my duas here as well. You, indeed are an asset for the Muslim Ummah. All praise be to Allah to have guided you to Islam and now he has Alhamdulillah made you a waseela for the guidance of so many people. Just like the Islam of Umar Bin Khattab empowered muslims. Alhamdulillah with Allah’s will and blessings he has empowered the Muslims with your acceptance of Islam.

If I'm not mistaken Mr. Akyol claims that the mu'tazila somehow championed freedom of religion through their theology but this is simply false, one has to read about 30 years of mu'tazili rule in Baqhdad and how they cracked down on anyone who disagreed with them to understand who the mu'tazila really were.

I don't think this conversation got anywhere in terms of answering the question in the title besides Mustafa Akyol quoting one person who didn't think geometry was very useful, I was expecting to hear about some ottoman state policies or some major fatwas or a negative public reaction to technology but we got nothing.

Still listening. Interesting conversation guys. Really appreciate your nuanced dialogues

Thank you for facilitating this discussion Paul. This is a much needed format for the exchange of ideas and bridge building.

This is the way to discuss our differences in theology, philosophy, apologetics, jurisprudence and sectarian bias between Academics and Intellectuals without calling each other disbelievers, name calling etc where everyone gets lost in the heat of the moment, array and create more confusion!... what we need is Analysis, intellectual challenges and cross-examination to build intellectual bridges despite differences through dialogue between camps and thoughts. 👍🏼🤝🤗 well done Paul. We need more of this type of discussion as well.

I am a tenured university professor in engineering in USA, having 60+ peer reviewed papers and 2 US patents. (not showing off, but trying to prove a point) I have long beard, pants above the ankle and follow the salafi methodology. I am student of Islamic Online University by Dr. Bilal Philips. I have many friends who are like me. We don't need to reform Islam, Muslims need to come back to Quran and authentic Sunnah to get the glory back. There is no other way.

Eid MUBARAK to all. Very much appreciated. Paul is bringing very reasonable arguments but not blame game. We need to discuss and find out the reason why our new Gen goes wrong way.

Eid Mubarak to you and your everyone watching this channel.

What a beautiful and respectful exchange of ideas. While Dr.Ali seems visibly frustrated at times and is not convinced by the explanations offered, he nevertheless carries himself with immense grace and Br. Akyol’s patience and humility is definitely praiseworthy…very rare in these times where many “scholars” are busy mudslinging each other, with no effort to actually engage in a healthy dialogue, their dismissive attitudes only helping islamophobes. Have to say, Akyol’s arguments appeal to human intellect. Dr. Ali’s point about freedom having limits in the real world is accurate since absolute freedom of one is probably NOT possible without infringing upon someone else’s freedom/rights. He also reminds us that ultimate wisdom behind all Quranic laws rests with Allah (swt) and whether we comprehend the inherent good or evil in actions, we are obliged to stay within divine boundaries. However, what Akyol tries to get across does not actually contradict that at all. He only stresses that while we can hold “orthodox” beliefs, we have no right to have them imposed on everyone around us. I think Dr. Yasir Qadhi makes that very clear when he says that Islamic punishments that would be applicable under a khilafa, can’t be meted out by governments of nation states. He also highlights that when “Reformation” is brought up, what is meant is reformation of the mind as in our interpretations/understanding of the Deen, and not of the Deen itself. Also, is it fair to conflate sin and crime? Or should they be understood as two different concepts. Sin is a moral matter, crime a legal… of course some actions fall under both. While we must call out immorality and sinful behaviour, do “Muslim authorities in Islamic countries” have the right to abuse Hudood laws? What does criminalizing something entail? As for understanding the contentious issues of slavery and concubines in Islam, Dr. Khaled Abu AlFadl of Usuli Institute offers a very thorough, thought provoking and erudite exegesis of the Qur’an. He highlights the moral principles underlying the various Qur’anic injunctions. You can disagree with some of his points but do not let that prevent you from benefiting from his knowledge. Would be good to have him on here some day. Thank you, Paul, for helping share all kinds of perspectives and discourses.

Western civilization may be going through a decline of many generations that can be studied by contemporary scholars. It would be interesting to see if there are similar causes to the Muslim decline. It is always a hope that through such examinations we can learn to avoid past tragedies repeating endlessly through time.

thanks mr paul for this lo ely conversation your doing so much to the muslim community may allah bless you 🙏

Thank you, Paul, for hosting this conversation. Excellent discussion on a very important topic. You're a one man army. Blessed Eid to you. :)

tqvm for 2 hours video with 2 distinguished guests bro paul..its been amazing to listen to them again..wishing all a happy aidiladha ❤😁

One word : thrilling. جزاكم الله خيرا

Quality discussion MashAllah. May Allah reward you brother Paul for providing this and for letting the discussion go on with out intervening despite your knowledge MashAllah.

Excellent conversation brother Paul, we need more line this. Jazak Allahu Khairan, Eid Mubarak to you all these in the UK

Thank you Paul for beautiful and graceful presentation, as always. Adha Mubarak.

Your channel is the reason I haven't watched a movie on netflix for over two months.. so interesting and informative discussions Keep it up Paul

Quite an insightful and respectful discussion among two contemporary Muslim scholars who hold views that aren't entirely aligned with one another. Eid Mubarak to all!

I just started watching and I love this format already.

Brother Paul... You are an absolute legend to do this... This is Awesome! May Allah bless you and this channel even more! Also, Eid Mubarak :)

Eid Mubarak Paul. JazakaAllahu khayr.

Fascinating discussion more like this pplease, thanks Paul for your wonderful work.

Wow this podcast was a roller coaster ride through islamic theology i really appreciate the effort Mr. Paul for bringing these two scholars together.

Love your channel and your passion for intellectual debate in the Islamic realm!

mashallah very impressed with this discussion. both "opponents" for what of a better word, were still respectfully and extremely honest in how they conducted themselves and towards the counterpart

Awesome discussion. I started listening to this and then I stopped. I went out and got the book read it and rewatched the discussion. The book is extremely well documented and Doctor Ali is only going to make Mustafa Aykol stronger in his delivery of his scholarship. Both of them will benefit from this discussion and I believe Dr Ali has already done so. This is not going away. Young Muslims in the west as well as converts have already agreed with a lot of Mustafa's arguments whether they say so openly or not. We need more of this!

I loved this video because it’s sparking an important discussion that has been missing from the islamic discourse. It would be nice to widen these discussions to include all groups like sufis-atharis- salafis- wahhabis. Issues like : Takfir- Ta’weel- calling on dead people- divine attributes and shape of islamic governance are at the core of contention. The Ummah is fragmented as a result of theological and political reasons and unless these issues are addressed then the Ummah will have no hope.

Beautiful discussion. Loved it brother Paul

Great conversation!

Excellent conversation

It was a brilliant idea to structure this podcast with this peer review dynamic.....

Thank you Paul for this channel and this video. I'm a little bit upset you didn't have much input in this discussion.

Thank you Paul & thank you scholars for sharing views. We are all ‘seekers of truth’ first and foremost no matter what that ‘truth’ might be & how uncomfortable. Perhaps the ‘straight path’ includes aspects & approaches of both these scholars (and others) the reality is we all need to be a little more open minded and self-critical. Eid Mubarak to all.

Jazakumullahukhairan Br. Paul for this amazing video.

A different format but I loved it .. more of it please jzk

Amazing discussion. Only you could make this happen Paul. Mashallah.

Eid Mubarak Paul!

Materialistically speaking, never in terms of morality.

Thanks Paul

Thank you sheikh Paul Williams for making them define the concepts

This is such a nice discussion. 😃👍

Great discussion. Muslim scholars should be able have civil discussion between different school of thoughts like this rather than issuing thakfir behind the desk.

I think what Mustafa Akuyol has tried to do in his book is not something new and the criticism from Dr. Ali is nothing new too. Fazlur Rehmanit's book "Islam and Modernity" Was a pioneering study in this tradition and the reaction to this book from the traditional muslim scholars set a kind of trend in this respect. What we must take from this is that endeavours like this are a healthy sign for the entire muslim world and we must value it.

Eid Mubarak brother Paul

My take away messagea from discussion, both are 'right'. Yes alGhazali's 'occasionalism' did influence Muslim mass world-view/thinking (scholars too), hence Islamic 'philosophy' scholars were out of favor and died out after that. Of course this cannot (difficult) to be prove empirically, but as someone brought up and travel around in Islamic world, i know how the average Muslim person view the world (which in turns reflect how our ustaz teach us). But this was not at all alGhazali's fault, for how the Muslim understand alGhazali's 'occasionalism' is different and wrongly from what alGhazali proposed. The true intention of occasionalism is around theology issues, as God is the Sustainer of the universe, not a contention of natural law of the world. And I think, occasionalism is the 'correct' view, of how traditional muslim should view our world. Sadly, most Muslim misunderstood alGhazali's works.

Lovely brother Paul, JaskaAllah khair.

Looking forward to this insha'Allah

Many turning points but perhaps the most important was in 1492 with the fall of Granada and the Beginnings of colonialism. 1500's King Henry 8th, church of England reformation. Printing press takes hold of society. King James Bible, 1611. Newton and scientific age of reason. Bank of England formed, 1694. 1800's Industrialisation takes hold. Steam engines. Factories. Fossil fuels. WW1, spanish flu, passport system formed. WW2. Bretton Woods. 1971, US comes off gold standard. Petrodollar FIAT money credit expansion. 2020, beginnings of reset to digital currency passport social credit system via internet of things. Orwellian Brave new world. Complete detachment from spirituality and the land. Arrival of the digital god/singularity/anti christ. All seeded in RIBA and the weaponisation of nature aka greed, the antithesis of god consciousness as old as ancient Egypt and Babylon.

This discussion made me feel good Very nice

My view is that the growth of the Muslim Ummah of Nabi Muhammad Sa’s came to a halt at least 5-6 centuries back when it reached the stage of adolescence because of the ghafla that engulfed ulumah. They looked outside of the Quran for solutions to worldly challenges and were dependent on other’s ilm that had sprung up during the fast growing initial stages.

Asaalamualaikum wa rahmath ULLAHI wa barakatahu, Taqabbal Allah minna wa minkum brother paul

Wow. Now you have 2 guests at one time. 👍👍👍.

Eid Mubarak to all of you.

The problem with Muslims is the contrast between their beliefs and their work. The first commandment of the Quran was read and that means read everything in the world in the name of Allah Read the laws created by Allah, learn the laws that nature has set, if Muslims did this, they would make scientific and technological development. Muslims only recited the Qur'an with their tongue, but they did not carry the Qur'an into their lives, considering wearing a turban and a robe and growing a beard is Muslim.

Eid Mubarak everyone

I don't know Abdullah bin Hamid, but I can tell you Mustafa Akyol's work is mainly flawed and seems to ponder to the western audience.

Great discussion, please consider going a level higher. In the narrative of this descension, the weakness was attributed to flaws. Please also consider the loss of good factors which were once embraced. By studying good examples such as the very golden age of Andalusia, we can find what strengths they had and by losing these strengths, weakness spread. You may start by studying the effect of the following factors: 1. Fairness, 2. Diversity, and 3. Creating opportunities. Early Andalusians enjoyed fair and novel legislations and much effort was directed in creating new opportunities such as creating market for dried produce and advancing irrigation.

all depends on how one defines “fell behind”

wow the centuries old ashari and mutazalite debate still ongoing... thanks to both these individuals I'm enlightened...

Very refreshing to see someone suggest to look with an open mind. This is what we need; civil discussion. Not branding everyone who don't think the way you do kafir. Insallah in time the narrow minded extremists will lose power and the world will understand true Islam. The Islam that accepts not discriminates while not comprimising core beliefs

Subhaanallaah!

Since when do we reform Islaam to make Islaam palatable for those who struggle with the usool and the waajibaat. This is what the Christians and Jews have done and continue upon; they made religion submissive to them. At that point you can't call Islaam submission to the will of Allah ypon Tawheed and Sunnah, it would submission to the people who want to reform Islaam.

Mustafa Akyol is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute’s Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity, where he focuses on the intersection of public policy, Islam, and modernity. Since 2013, he has also been a frequent opinion writer for The New York Times, “The Thinking Muslim,” a popular podcast, defined Akyol as “probably the most notable Muslim modernist and reformer.”

Selamat HariRaya Aiduladha to all Muslim.Am from Kedah Malaysia

Eid Al-Adha to Paul and Muslims around the world. Alhamdulillah.

Salaams Paul thanks for the discussion, does anyone have timestamps up yet?

I watched the debate between Abdullah al Andalusi and Mustafa Akyol, very interesting.

Thank you for hosting this discussion, Paul. I read Mr. Akyol’s book a few months ago and couldn’t understand his beef with Ashaarism, or why he has such a deterministic view of it. He raises important questions that warrant discussion, like free will and religious freedom, but I think he misses on his proposed answers to those questions. Thank you for this Eid gift!!!

If majority audience is non Muslims then is it wise to hand on a platter issues that first need to be discussed and reach a consensus by the Muslim community first. Otherwise it becomes a weapon for non Muslims to add to their propaganda.

Why don't liberal Muslims understand Islam is complete and does not need to be liberalised?

Muslims fell when they stopped practicing Islam properly. It's time to return to the roots, to reunite the Muslim countries - from their fractured state - into one strong nation!

It would be wonderful to bring Dr. Khaled Abu Fadl on the channel.

I listened to Reopening Muslim minds as an audio book. The book brings up some very interesting points esp related to history of Muslim orthodoxy. Highly recommended

Dr .Abdullah Ali Philly homegrown.

Whenever a civilization becomes complicit and arrogant as a result of its own accomplishments it becomes susceptible to being defeated from where they least expect. You could say that of the world powers now but I would also apply the same rule to Islamic dynasties in the past. When they where great they where truly great, but when their leaders became arrogant and developed and inherent sense of superiority, they lost touch with reality and became very susceptible to defeat by outer forces. However, such as in the case of the Mongols, many of the foreign invaders (who were initially cruel in their own right) found the true meaning of Islam and I would argue in some cases became better Muslims than the native one’s before them. For me it just goes to show that no one is “above” the need for humility and that the Quran doesn’t say “Allah is on the side of the Muslims”. It says Allah is on the side of the just. If Muslim countries want to be great again they need to stay actually doing things according to what God values-not their own personal impulses. There is a reason why God tells us in Surah “Inshirah”: “when you are free still labor hard.” God never tells us to whine like children and act like victims while criticizing everyone except for oneself. Group narcissism permits that-not God. This is a point that I feel Muslims who are what you might call more “modern” such as brother Aykol, are very frank about. While I personally totally commend the neo-traditional approach, I for one am very tired of people who call themselves “traditionalists” but do nothing other than blame Salafi’s for the all the worlds problems and merely give the tradition lip service. Also if you want my opinion-the age of Caliphate is over and it’s never coming back. The best we can do now is just focus on moral refinement and bringing love and beauty to whatever society we happen to live in.

Can you get let’s talk religion on this podcast? He has an interesting perspective on Islamic history and I would love to see a conversation between you two

Imam Shafi loved Geometry. He said it causes exactness in judgement. Qazi Abu Bakr ibn Arabi learned all books of Euclid at an early age This is just for information

salaam - Eid Mubarak nice chat.. I feel Muslim civilization lack of advancement goes much deeper, of course, then the debates between the Ash'arites and Mu'tazilites, It's not even about merely being "behind" the West. Behind in what? Western civilization is also continuing to unravel, losing it's connection with the Most High..this is a great series providing reasons for Islamic civilization unsettling state from the beginning- [11/11] In Search of Orthodox Islam - Br. Khalil Jaffer - 12th Muharram 1439

Timestamps 0:00 Intro

The Muslim civilisation became too decadent and relaxed too much. They failed to continue training men and women in how to defend themselves. The main reason is that they abandoned the Quran. They failed to grasp a universal concept that Allah swt gives us in the Quran, i.e We have made you into nations that you may each, keep each other in check. Knowing this to be the case, it is paramount that a nation should not get themselves into a quagmire and forget that they could easily be made to be subordinate to another nation. The muslim civilisation also abandoned Deen Islam for Mazhab-Islam. They allowed their Priests and Mullahs to gain power and influence and slowly the Deen of Allah changed.

Good convo. I felt Dr Abdullah Ai was sometimes interrupting Akyol too much, but great stuff nevertheless.

I don't think we should use wealth and possession worldly things as an example of progression of a civilization

Is there a Facebook page for blogging theology ?

"Mongols.....Crusaders.....Colonization"

Eid Adha Mubarak. If it really fell behind...then you are at the core at its revival....

Peace be upon you all. The real debate is not between modernist against traditionnalist or against mutazili against sunni. If go back to the roots of all the debates in the oumma, it's between Quran centric (or alone) vs Quran + hadiths. It's only at this level that we could do our intellectual and spiritual reform. Thanks for your job. We follow you from France. Peace.

Wow! a real modern day self-assumed mutazila! No too many of those! May Allah reward him for the good he did and may He guide to the real path and truth of Sunni traditional islam and away from mutazilism and may Allah bless and reward Brother Ali, he is a true gem! Thanks for making this happen, Paul!

Let’s not make the same mistake as the early people of the book, and reform our religion for the gentilles. It was already made for them , the mission of Jesus (AS) was distorted by apostle Paul, in so that the message could reach an “urban” or “modern” Greek audience. This is evidenced by the obvious references to platonic philosophy and complicated koine Greek used in New Testament manuscripts. We don’t need to appeal , their is already many things in the tradition to aid us in living in the west

There was a speech given in the British Parliament in the 1920's to make sureTurkeys learning institutions are kept at a lower level or to make sure there's less than average, something along those lines, I don't know if Turkey's learning institutions were to be targeted alone or others in other countries as well, my point is in my opinion Islam is not encouraged to thrive but the opposite by certain people.