I mean, the two "sensible" causes are based on the code straight up not doing what it's written to. This is just an unforseen interaction between two different bits of code, that makes a lot more sense than something that would be immediately tested to see if it works properly.
y'must have a real hard time finding stuff if you find a needle out in the open and where anyone would expect to find one, and you still go "wow, this is like finding a needle in a haystack!" it's also kinda hard to imagine the "sensible" cause being that the sapper takes damage normally, since ... it doesn't. you don't damage it by whacking it, but whacking the building it's attached to, and on the player's end it doesn't so much as have "hp" as all other objects in the game, but rather "hits to destroy." absolutely nothing about this suggests that removing sappers goes through the standard damage procedures honestly, the only weird thing that this video reveals is that a sapper takes 65 damage from a normal wrench, rather than 50
@@hi-i-am-atan a wrench damaging a sapper for 65 isn't that weird IMO, because if you've ever played a spy that saps Engineer buildings, and you pay attention to your building HUD, you'll see that a sappers HP doesn't go down by 50% when hit by a non-jag wrench, based on the (imprecise) bar-based HP display for it. It goes down by more than half of the bars (IIRC it's half of the bars plus one). Though treat this whole comment with an asterisk that says If I recall correctly - its been awhile since I myself have paid attention to my Spy building HUD.
@@UnlimitedRun less "weird" in the sense of "this doesn't follow suit with how it behaves" and more "weird" in the sense of "there is no real reason for it"
It makes sense if you ask me, the Jag was design to make sentry building faster at the price of being more disposable, for that the fact that it should be harder to repair is only appropriate.
I’m sure the end result was intentional but surely they could have just tweaked the stats so it dealt 35 dmg a sapper swing. I doubt engies will be running around busting sentries.
The 3 hits to destroy a sapper is already painful enough, 4 and I'll just switch to using the southern hospitality and eureka effect No level of build speed will convince me to go back when I have to swing 4 times to destroy a sapper
Never noticed that Spy's face looks angry when his sapper is destroyed. Pretty interesting. Also, all I've learned from this channel is that the code for TF2 has been spaghetti from the start, not just over time.
I wonder if the spy makes that face because of spaghetti code, too. Like maybe it's because spy's sapper is technically a "building", and the engie makes a similar face if his buildings are destroyed, but the difference is spy doesn't have a voice line associated with his sapper being destroyed?
@@laylaruan I never knew that! I knew that they generally change expression right after swinging their melee, but I guess I've never noticed anything specific to firing other weapons.
@@graysongdl Yeah, they're nice little touches. Now I think about it I don't think they're that common though - most of the facial expressions will be dependent on voice line, or if taking damage or whatever. One other one I can think of though is that Heavy often smiles while firing his gun, even if he's not speaking or yelling
So from what I learned from all the sapper videos on this channel: - The wrench has its own damage for sappers which is 65. - Hitting a sapped building is still hitting the building. What happens is that secondary damage is also indirectly applied to sappers. - The secondary damage is affected by modifiers to building damage and not by general damage modifiers.
@@guscox9651 hmm, i have no clue why that would happen. other people seem to be able to see it fine, but i made a pastebin mirror pastebin.com/aDZdmyeS
The code probably only does it this way for wrenches, which would explain the constant 65 (stock wrench). Normal melee weapons (without the wrench extension) are processed differently. Pure speculation, no confirmation.
It works exactly the same as the jag. Its base damage (49) is not relevant when calculating damage done to buildings (including sappers). If it was, it would only deal 98 damage to buildings so it would take two hits to destroy sappers and minis (so it would be a slightly worse Neon Annihilator). Edit: didn't mention this, but the Homewrecker deals 130 damage to buildings.
Homewrecker works like this, base damage of melee + 100% damage against buildings. it does 130 dmg to sappers and buildings alike hence one hit sapper removal
Honestly this video shows an interesting fact, but the code itself isn't problematic IMO. I actually think it's quite clever to separate the damage bonus and the damage to sappers
Yeah it's interesting, but this time the code indeed makes sense for what it is meant to be. A simple fix would be to take in account the normal damage penalty too and increase the Jag's damage, but even then, this right now is just as intended.
Or just ignore the problem and just replace the damage penalty with a damage VS PLAYERS penalty. It would not change anything, and would reflect the current behavior a lot better but would make the jag slightly better at destroying enemy buildings (which why would you do that with a jag anyway?) i dunno, just an idea
This is what I was going to mention. When it was reworked I thought to myself "Oh, so you need 3 hits to kill a sapper. Well, it swings much faster so the time difference isn't *that* significant." Boy would it be a way worse wrench if it worked as intended...
@@guy_th18 from the video, at least for me, it's hard to tell if they intended all the spaghetti code for when the jag first was added, and knowing how bad they are at balancing the 4 hits to take off a sapper seems something possible
Got here by a random recommended video, and it turns out it's not the first time! I loved your tf2 source code comments montage and explanation. Your editing skills are amazing, I hope your channel grows, because you deserve it.
How it feels to deal with spies with average cringy fat and sweaty ahh loadout (letrager, kunai and deadringer): He is in the walls... *HE IS IN THE GOD DAMNED WALLS!!!!*
guy: **breaks sapper** shounic: BUT WHY? AND HOW AND WHEN AND WHY AND WHERE WHO AND WHERE? edit: Yo thanks for lots of likes props to the tf2 philosopher
Honestly while it’s kind of odd now, I think this setup makes sense considering the weapon’s history. When first added, The Jag just had a 30% faster construction rate and 25% damage penalty, which would have led to it having taken 3 hits to destroy sappers if damage penalties affected them. Since that’d make it pretty awful (IIRC the early versions of the Jag are generally regarded as pretty weak even with 2 hit unsapping) it’d make sense for the generic damage modifiers not to affect sappers, as then it’d be easier to have a wrench with modified damage without risking completely ruining it. Eventually after various changes the Jag became too good, so it was nerfed by making it take 3 hits to unsap. I presume the damage to buildings modifier was first made to affect sappers when the Homewrecker gained the ability to destroy sappers (a few months before the Jag was added I think), at which point they had decided that the Homewrecker should take off sappers in one hit and, rather than adding a whole extra attribute just for that, just added that functionality to the existing building damage stat that was already on it. So when the Jag was nerfed, they simply reused the same property of the building damage attribute, while leaving the rest of the stats as is. This is probably kind of rambly and it’s mostly conjecture anyway, but that’s just my thoughts on the topic.
Shounic, love your vids. You are amazing at editing, everything looks so clean and amazingly done, Great job man. I Love seeing new videos getting posted. Thanks for such quality in your videos.
so i think the reason it uses a baked in 65 dmg in calculations is from maybe a time when dmg spread effected buildings and was larger, so that sappers would always get broken in two hits. it also makes sense that the jag has a hidden building dmg nerf so that it effects sappers the way you would expect it to with its dmg nerf
"The basic fundamental functions of a melee weapon; such as unlimited swings, and a limited range". Demoknights? Limited range!? Are we playing the same game here; I've been hit from across the room by more swords than I can count
What you see on a server is NEVER what actually happened as everything already happened due to travel time, you live 1 second in the past but move as if your in the future. When you're dead you always live on your end for a short time longer then then everyone else sees. During this time nothing you do matters. You've never been hit across the room by swords. You just didn't realize you're dead till they made it across the room.
they say playing engineer is emotional just look at the spys face when you destroy his sapper it's like he is filled with rage because you kill his little child and the only thing in he wants in his life is revenge #sapper_lifes_matter
I never knew that these penalties were supposed to be in addition to one another. Truth be told, I never tried to hit an enemy building with a Jag. Yeah I know. Crazy.
I looked at the 33% damage penalty against buildings and thought, "Sappers are "buildings" with 100 health. That penalty means the Jag would need one extra hit." And it did. Never considered the idea that it should stack with the damage penalty against players, or that other buildings wouldn't work the same way, since I would always use my primary to destroy other Engies' stuff. Crazy. 🍝
i think this is overall because the sapper isn't exactly defined as a building, and can only be applied to sort of anchor onto buildings, which maybe changes the building's script code. doing 3 hits with the jag to anything that isn't a building does 147 damage, so i do believe that the sapper is most likely considered to be a script changer in the code, while also being performed as a weapon. sort of similar to the destruction panel, but different. the sapper is a weapon that has a damage that has a base of 0 and is multiplied by 0 if i am correct, and i believe that the sapper, on buildings, simply changes the script of the dispenser to lose health overtime until the building is hit 3 times. with the destruction panel, it's not listed as a weapon, but it is still actively used. it has a base damage of 0, and is multiplied by 0, if again, i am correct. it probably changes the script for a building to be destroyed in a fashion which doesn't appear in the kill feed.
Pretty sure it being 3 hits instead of 4 is somewhat intentional, given that I recall the patch notes when they nerfed the dang thing saying "it now takes three hits to remove a sapper".
It really enjoy your editing style and all your graphics and animations. I would not mind if you diverted from tf2 and started talking about other subjects, like the video you did about copyright. Keep up the good work!
It's a roundabout way to get to the 3 hit sapper intention and unfortunately means the jag is awful at deconstructing enemy buildings, but I guess thats source for ya...
ik this is old and has been said before, but it really bugs me that the apparent "jank" is that its not adding both damage debuffs to the sapper damage calculation. that claim doesnt make any sense to me, theyre both different damage types. the only problem is that the jag's building damage debuff can easily be mistaken for doing less damage to enemy buildings but since it doesnt, the text for it should be changed to "-33% damage to sappers" instead. or code handling the damage debuff should only include players, and the building damage debuff should also include enemy buildings and not just sappers. but yeah, this is pretty much the only shounic video i have a problem with.
I’m not too sure but when it says -damage against buildings, I think it might mean against enemy buildings. Like how the loch & load does + damage against buildings. But that’s just a theory, a Game Theory.
Shounic Can you check if the Eyelander or its variants can steal heads/kills from an Airstrike solders or Bazaare bargain sniper It would make my day If you actually reply
This is similar to the BASE weapons and the Liberty Launcher. They all have both a damage penalty against players, and an equal self damage reduction. Ace TheOcarinaMaker has a video on this and is where I learned it from.
So basically, this can be explained by saying "65 damage is hard-coded into the sapper's damage taken, so only building damage affects it". Oh well, it keeps the Jag balanced, I ain't complaining
