I read a tweet with a guy talking about tekken7 mentioning how people wouldn't punish him correctly with moves that pushback on block and he in turn would punish them, his tweet was a beginner take but it make me think
SpiraPlayz nope he literally does it sometimes, check it out some of the old tournaments that his in. He brings a tape measure. I never seen him smile or laugh as to make it seem like a joke he just has that serious face when he does it
And this is why I subbed. You remind me of my Trig/Calc professors in college. Not just explaining, but breaking down complicated shit piece by piece. Also the Bubblaine music from Super Mario Odyssey was sublime.
True for many fighting games. Moves that look very minus judging by the frame data can have such a huge pushback that you can't punish them anyway. Or only certain characters can punish it. You have to test it in training mode.
Been trying to drill that into my friend's heads for... Fuck, years now? My big meaty slow stupid move was only good cause I hit you with the very last pixel it had to hit with, start baiting that shit and P U N I S H me god dammit.
As a Ryu main, I am acutely aware of spacing. Namely, that there always seems to be an enormous gulf of it between my opponent and any normals I can throw out on block. ;p
As an og arcade player, I don't know the frame data on characters I've played for 20 years, but we as a community knows which buttons are strong based on a combination of how fast it comes out, how long it stays out, and the hit box/hurt box it has. We never discussed frame data, but we have a pretty good grasp of strengths of each buttons and specials.
I think it's useful but not everything. You might not be able to immediately tell which abilities are faster than others in different fighters. Such as 3d ones
I dont think you always need to remember exactly how - or + a move is, rather remember which move will leave you open, and what kind of move will the opponent go for next based on the move they just used.
@@scatman1236 which you can use based off of frame data. If you know X leaves you wide open depending on Y situation from the frame data is helpful. Obviously there are other ways to learn alongside it but you can't say it's not useful
Yah it's interesting to see tech named and taught on YT now that we've been doing for years. Just took us a lot more time and trial and error to figure out, by trying moves during games
The old days where when you play enough you learn it by feel. Plus we didn't have labbing options like people do now. It's like, we were illiterate but now everyone knows how to read lol. I'll tell you though. It's fun bopping a frame data monster with fundamentals and experience.
I love watching these videos on sfv. I'm new to fighting games, and there's so much technical stuff I hear about everyday and I love it. I'm literally only bronze in sfv, but I want to learn everything in order to get farther.
Honestly, this works in every fighting game with a push back mechanic. I could actually start using this mentality in a lot of things. This video taught me somthing so simple and obvious, but yet so brilliant. My eyes have been opened, I must tell the village.
Being Balrog one of my mains (the other one is Lucia), this is really helpful! I noticed these things during my matches but couldn't really pay much attention when fighting an other player. Thanks!
There are so many good explanation videos out there. It's just a complicated topic when you are first starting out. Now that I get it, it seems so simple but I remember not long ago I didn't even know what "frame data" meant and when I tried to learn it was still confusing. Then I got it and it seems so simple. Just one of those things.
In the Tekken community, when we talk about moves being "safe", this is what we're talking about. Some character have moves that are crazy negative on block, but because they push the opponent back to a distance where they can't REACH with a punish move, the move will still be considered safe. In recent years, there are no longer any true safe moves anymore, since there will always be some character in some situation that can punish them, but even so.
Nice video, in a different fighting game, I often use a move that is minus 1 on block but set it up such that I am far enough out that I can still beat them mashing because my character has a long reaching attack that is faster than most other attacks that would reach at that distance. Even in the mirror match, I can still walk back and whiff punish if they do the same attack at me. (Opponents don’t get this option because I only use this in the corner.)
This is by far the most informative video I have seen from you Brian, seeing as I have only been aware of you for a little while now. Great job contextualising it for simpletons like me lmao. I wish fighting games were a thing where I live, but the best you can do around here is curbstomp some undergrads at smash brothers. Wish my only option wasnt to be an online warrior
I'm working on implementing this sort of thing right now and it feels like I'm gaining a super power. I'm winning exchanges I used to lose and it feels magical :D
Very resourceful video, thanks! I've recently noticed that this concept can be applied to defense too, not just offense. e.g. escaping -2 situations by pressing a slow normal that auto whiff punishes the opponent at the right range.
This concept is what makes Chun's advantage scary even tho a lot of her normals are minus you really can't check them and they'll just wash you with normals
What's weird is that I figured the further away youd be, the more advantage youd have cuz you're causing their block stun to trigger later and make your move safer. I never thought that being closer would mean your follow hits sooner and thus youd be able to frame trap with a move that normally would trade. Mind blown
I think a lot of what say here highlights why knowing the frame data numbers is good but doesn’t tell the whole story. This is where forgetting the numbers for a moment and just trying to apply stuff teaches you what you can do with a character. Fast moves that show safe are great but if they’re stubby and you have to take risks getting in to use them are they actually better than a slightly slower move that advances you forward and knocks someone back enough when blocked to make their fastest counter out of range or a few frames slower to come out? Can you sweep after for a low mix up and knock down. On hit can you dash in fast enough to get off those faster combinations. I love testing this stuff out through in game application. And looking at the data to see what other routes might be there as well
Honestly, I think spacing and learning which moves I can reach and punish on block is my biggest problem. I guess I have to lean one character at a time, but that feels so daunting.
Great video! But how do I find this out as a Silver rank? I play Ryu, I know forward hard punch is plus and that I'm close to my opponent if it hits. But how do I find out the best setups/combos afterwards? Should I press every possible button sequence to find out if anything combos or leads to an advantage? I tried, but I only found out 1 combo next to Ryus target combo. I know the information you gave in the video is of importance, but I've broken my brain trying to figure out how I can use this to improve my own gameplay in an actual match against higher ranked players. Thanks in advance for any answers or tips. Ps: my inputs aren't 100% solid, so please don't send me any crouching heavy punch, dp into super type combos. I need more advantage + damage that doesn't rely on full meter or corners to be effective. Kind regards, A Silver Ryu player that's genuinely trying to improve but doesn't know how.
That's so true, frame advantage is nice but spacing is actually more important. Like, in SF4, Gen is like -18 on block with his hands, that looks like shit, but it hits 4 times at least and pushes everyone so far out that only like Feilong and Ibuki can punish it but they can punish it on hit, no one else really can. Blanka's stupid fucking roll is technically -1 billion but he lands so far away that most can't hit him. Even Sagat's 10-12ish frame ultra 2 can't punish Blanka's normal rolls, only EX, UNLESS the spacing is bad. If Sagat is like mid screen, and Blanka has his back to the corner and rolls, it gets blocked, that's free ultra regardless. Which is why T.Hawk vs Blanka in SF4 is the most hilarious match to watch. T.Hawk literally can't do anything to stop Blanka from getting free chip. He would have to predict and jab him out of the roll or do his DP, things that all have a risk of trading.
Good one for Akuma: cr.hp +3 on block After HK Tatsu bnb. What does akuma get if cr.hp is blocked on back rise? Nothing. Cannot reach and other buttons dont reach either. Neutral resets. What does he get on Quick Rise? Hes too slow to dash up with cr.hp. Needs to go st.mk or cr.mp (5/6F) or walk cr.hp. Sure if they press a button they will get crushed by the cr.hp but this isnt a real meaty.
White is block/hitstun where the opponent cannot act, green is the startup frames of the button, red is active frames where said move can actually connect with a target (assuming it has come in contact with the opponent)
I appreciate that the newer generation has been so open to approaching fighting games from a technical and theoretical standpoint, it’s just interesting to me that you have to almost explain in reverse something that just seems like intuitive common sense. Nothing wrong if your the type of person that needs help conceptualizing things through data, but I honestly feel like you shouldn’t be worried about frame data until you’re an advanced player who labs out very specific punishes for specific match ups. Footsies and efficient use of your buttons should be more of an intuitive skill you gain through experience imo
What I’m saying is that you don’t have to, as in knowing frame data doesn’t assist you in your game, UNTIL you have a complete grasp of the fundamentals of the game. Advanced players know how to apply the data they studied practically in their game. What does frame data do for you if you don’t even understand the basic concept of spacing?
Back in the day all we had was qualitative data. We might not of had the numbers at our disposal, but through repeated trial and error, we knew what was safe on block/what was not, what was punishable, from what distance is something safe or not etc. it’s the same result. When you have beginner/intermediate players approaching everything from a theoretical lense first, it slows your growth and will leave holes in your understanding of the mechanics of the game ie: people who can spout frame data numbers at you but didn’t grasp the concept that the distance your at while throwing an attack might affect how safe or unsafe a move is
This is exactly what LTG needs to watch he's always crying about frame data and wondering why he gets hit because that's all he thinks is going on in the game.
You said frame data doesn't explain everything, but went on to prove frame data explains everything. Frame data isn't just about advantage or disadvantage on hit or block. There's things live recovery frame data and active frame data, start up frame data, hitbox and hurtbox frame data. When you take a look at the full picture of frame it perfectly illustrates and tells you exactly what's going on and why. Using frame data properly it's easy to figure out why ex rush punch +1 xx 3 frame jab trades with Akumas 3 framer, gotta consider active frames+hitbox frames. The hitbox of moves changes depending on the active frame. So in fact one characters 3 framer can be slower than another characters 3 framer. So example akumas 3 framer, takes 3 frames to start up and is active for 8 frames, and during the first 7 active frames it can reach 4 feet ahead of him, and the 8th only 3 feet. Meanwhile Rog is 3 frame start up, 8 active frames but during the first 5 active frames it can only reach 2 feet ahead of him and during the last 3 active frames it can reach 4 feet. So you always have to use all the frame data to get the full picture. Gotta consider not only the start up of a move but also the start up of the moves hitbox and hurtbox. Spacing is not a way of manipulating frame data, spacing uses frame data exactly as written. The only way to manipulate frame data is with meaties, when you hit on the latter active frames in order to speed up the recovery of your move, in order to make it more plus on block than originally intended. Put this is why paper(written) frame data isn't effective, a frame data viewer like SF5s training mode is way more helpful in telling you everything but still needs work.
So im getting into balrog and i want to know which v trigger i should use. I love the command grab with vt2 but also love the combos off of dash punch with vt1
idk if this is entirely relevant to this video. so in tekken 7 the universal fastest possible attack is your 10 frame jab that is +1 on block. jabs also usually move you forward a bit. the forward movement that comes on many moves with frame advantage really helps to lock people down. in sfv people get pushed away for blocking no matter what frame advantage and i just do not understand how to pressure people in this game. if people just block my frametraps i'll eventually be far enough away that i need to move forward to keep attacking, but if i walk closer they'll hit me and if i jump i'll get anti aired. i think this video alleviates some of my issue, but if i'm not a character with tons of forward movement like balrog what should i be doing to play better offense? i play chun, kolin, and cody. on chun i feel like i have this issue the least because her long range feels like it makes up for this problem. kolin is who i have this problem with most severely. and idk whats going on with cody but opening people up with his st.mk is just super easy. thinking about learning cammy because i feel like i could learn like 2 things and let my offense be carried.
You perfectly described SFV. What you described is all about what the offense/defense is about! If you do airtight strings, you will stop your opponent from mashing, but you will also push yourself out of range If you do strings with small gaps where you walk up, you can get more buttons/longer strings in for pressure, but if opponent mashes, you will get hit You can do strings with big gaps where you walk up and throw, forcing the opponent to tech/pre-emptively mash to stop you from moving forward Now you see the cycle? Leave gaps to get more pressure to convince your opponent to do something (mash, backdash) to get you off of them. Walk up throw to convince them they can't block forever. Then go back to being air-tight with your strings and watch how many more counter-hits you get. Cycle between these options and tweak your timings based on your opponents habits
@@Brian_F i think im just being too predictable but as a new player thats to be expected i guess. i mained Lei in tekken so I think im just used to my mixup game being dependant on simply playing the character with the largest moveset.
