Why Gavin Ortlund is Wrong on Icons: Ignatius and Clement of Alexandria

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9 окт 2023

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Комментарии : 57

@Seraphim-Hamilton 9 месяцев назад

I am posting daily scriptural reflections six days a week, half of which will be exclusive. All patrons and paid Substack subscribers get all of my exclusive DAILY written content. Become a patron: www.patreon.com/kabane Or subscribe to my Substack: seraphimhamilton.substack.com/ Michael's Substack: substack.com/@michaelgarten Answering Protestantism from the Bible in 17 Hour Lecture Set: buy.stripe.com/5kA2bz6Y467K4JaaEJ Sample lecture: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-spQOreW8EDk.html Bundle with "Answering Calvinism from the Bible" for a discount (23 hours total): buy.stripe.com/9AQ8zX4PWeEg1wYeUY To just get "Answering Calvinism from the Bible" buy.stripe.com/aEUeYl4PW0Nq5Ne7su Get "Answering Judaism's Rejection of Jesus": seraphimhamilton.com/ Sample lecture: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-yyKV4NXArjM.html&t

@traditionallenses 9 месяцев назад

Total Nicea 2 Victory

@xxxfairyyxxx 9 месяцев назад

Great job here thankyou Michael & Seraphim

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

You’re welcome. Spread the word, it’s going to take a bit of pushing to counteract the influence of those GO videos ….

@bradspitt3896 9 месяцев назад

That seems to be the gist of the issue: The title of Gavin's video is "why veneration is wrong." (Genus) It is now why bowing is wrong (species). I don't see how he can justify an equivocation veneration with bowing, nor can I see him argue for why bowing would be an intrinsic act of worship.

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

I think he originally didn't differentiate carefully because a lot of peripheral secondary sources are so confident that there is no veneration of any kind in the pre-Nicene period. When I say peripheral, I mean secondary sources which aren't actually written by specialists doing research on the physical or written evidence of the pre-325 period. Ortlund quotes scholars such as Richard Price and Brubaker and Haldane, but their books are on II Nicea, and just give an overview of the early period. Seraphim and I argued for a variety of kinds of veneration, as well as Gavin himself acknowledging this, here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jweXuRuaXZ8.htmlsi=tp3v6-Mg_KEzLYMU

@MaximusOrthodox 9 месяцев назад

Nice

@vrocs3225 9 месяцев назад

Every goal other than God dishonors us.

@tinttiakka2028 9 месяцев назад

Goal of icons and relics is God.

@coloradodutch7480 4 дня назад

This seems like extrapolation and anachronism. Take for example the Roman’s bowing to their standard and it representing a cross. Clearly that is an observation or even a polemic argument that in no way justifies arguing Christians now also bow to the cross.

@AccordingToScripture 9 месяцев назад

Where is the information that Michael presented in the last video?

@MichaelGarten 9 месяцев назад

Hello, can you clarify which information you’re requesting? Glad to help, just not sure what the question is

@soteriology400 Месяц назад

I just can’t see the house of Israel in the first century venerating icons.

@zeektm1762 Месяц назад

Why? There’s quite a lot of art in early Christian Churches. Oh and the Temple was quite adorned with images too.

@soteriology400 Месяц назад

@@zeektm1762 They met at homes, not church buildings like we do today. Where are you finding the temple had images, let alone venerated them? Where are you getting this from? They had the ark, but the gold on it was not venerated.

@greghood1552 18 дней назад

@@soteriology400the house churches of the first century were from rich families that basically gave their estates to be used as basilicas. They were not just a low church Bible study in some guy's living room. First century Christians also met at synagogues at one point. All of the oldest synagogues that archeologists have discovered contain images on the walls.

@soteriology400 18 дней назад

@@greghood1552 The Christians were persecuted by the Jews at the synagogues like they did with Paul, so they did not meet there. Not sure where you got that from? They did meet at homes and tents though.

@greghood1552 18 дней назад

@@soteriology400the book of Acts

@ismaelsilveira2316 9 месяцев назад

Stop! Stop! He's already dead!

@Jeremy-qv7bw 9 месяцев назад

"It's the Krusty Burglar!"

@ColossiansTwoEight 9 месяцев назад

*Isaiah 42:8* _"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise _*_to graven images."_* It cannot get any clearer.

@roarkkaufman9339 9 месяцев назад

I wonder how much of this video you listened to before making a comment like this. Imagine thinking that an argument that has occured for the last 500 years and an argument that had to be settled by ecumenical council can be settled like this. God commands many images to be made, please look to Seraphim Hamilton's other work. Do you really think his Bible lacks Isaiah?

@ColossiansTwoEight 9 месяцев назад

@@roarkkaufman9339 Truth is "icon veneration" (or whatever you want to call it) directly contradicts what God commands. _"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: _*_Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,_*_ nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"_

@Seraphim-Hamilton 9 месяцев назад

Friend, we are aware of these passages and I have spent multiple hours on this channel discussing them. One could argue, with equal clarity, that we should all keep the seventh-day sabbath. Or what about when Deuteronomy proscribes sacred trees and high places, even though the patriarchs planted sacred trees and Samuel sacrificed at a high place? The answer is that the Bible is a genuinely complex document, and simply quoting a single passage like you have done without any attempt at all to interact with the material we've produced on the Biblical theology of imagery doesn't do anything to advance your position. The patriarchs could worship in ways that were later forbidden, just as Israel could only worship in the full sense at the central sanctuary (Deuteronomy 12) but in the new covenant we can worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth in all places (John 4). So yes, the prohibition on images is clear: the question is whether it is a particular feature of the old covenant or standing law for all mankind in all ages. That's what this series of videos has been largely about.

@ColossiansTwoEight 9 месяцев назад

@@Seraphim-Hamilton The New Testament deals with the sabbath day, which was done away in Jesus Christ. But at no point in the Bible you will find people making images to bow down before to, except when it refers to idolatry. Which is what the Bible condemns again and again strictly forbidden by the 2nd Commandment. So "the Bible is a genuinely complex document" is not a very compelling argument my friend. Yes, it has a lot of information but is our duty to study it and to follow what it says. If the Lord says "my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images" then you should find an equally strong biblical statement to refute it + explain what Isaiah 42 is refering to. But you have to prove it with Bible doctrine that supports your position. One just Don’t put a question mark where God puts a period.

@roarkkaufman9339 9 месяцев назад

@ColossiansTwoEight the problem is your 1st point is wrong, Joshua 7:6. Your interpretation would make God a hypocrite, commanding images to be made but also commanding them to be destroyed. I don't think God is schizophrenic personally. I would recommend looking at Seraphim Hamiltons full series on this. Joe Heshmeyer and others also do decent work showing that Nicæ 2 is correct and in like with scripture.