Why Growth Sucks - The Isle / Beasts of Bermuda 

I personally think that the Isle's main problem with it's nesting and growth system, is that it's a leftover from another time, and is thus completely inadapted for the game as it is. You're basically spending HOURS in what could be called an "Interactive loading screen", and waiting for your character to load it's stats so you can finally start playing. For a trike or a giga(if you're brave enough to try and grow one of these victims) you have to wait 6 litteral hours to START PLAYING your dinosaur. That's no fun, but why is it like this? Simple : Nesting and growth, in The Isle, was implemented for the "Progression" game mode around 3 years ago. Since most of the playerbase doesn't remember this time (due to the old playerbase withdrawing from the game), I'll resume it quickly : Progression mode was a game mode which, as it's name suggest, made you "progress" through the playable's tier list. When you start on a server, you spawn as one of the bottom-tier animals (Velociraptor for carnivores, Orodromeus and Psittacosaurus for herbivores), and you start playing as an ADULT. Over time, or by eating speciel types of plants you accumulate "progression points" which allows you, when you have enough, to upgrade your dino into an adult version of the Tier above. Thus, you progress through the bottom tiers to the upper ones, Tier by Tier and If you die, you start all over at the bottom again. So, if you wanted to play a giga for example, you had to start as a velo, then upgrade into a herra, then into an allo and finally into a giga, which means that you had reliable ways to enjoy the game during your entire playthrough, as you spawn as an adult each time you jump a Tier. So, what did growth had to do with this back then? Simple, you could only start up as a juvenile version of said dino IF someone playing said dino invited you in his nest. This mecanic allowed one to jump several steps of the progression and spawn immediately as a higher Tier dino, at the expense of starting in a weak and vulnerable state, and thus really dependent of your parents. But, growing like this was shorter than reaching said dino through the progression tree, so many people usually tried it. It was an "option", not an obligation, to go this route, which was kinda "high-risk ; high-payoff" approach, but if it didn't work, you could still go the progression way and climb at the Tier you wanted normally. Then they removed Progression, implemented Survival yet they didn't change the growth mecanic. Growth times were adjusted over time of course, but what we have now is a feature built for a gameplay which doesn't even exist anymore, and thus has no more value. And THAT is the main problem with forcing people to start of as juveniles and growing for HOURS to just start playing their dino, not only is that incredibly boring and frustrating, but it's also lost all the purpose it had when it was implemented. Basically, this mecanic is now completely useless as it is

The use of Captain Gutt's sea shanty alone has made me agree with the entire video

I think a lot of people are interpreting this video as "remove growth" when in reality the point is why growth is boring. A lot of comments are trying to imply that people just want to be lazy and automatically be adults and... no. Growth being more complex and requiring actual gameplay would make being an adult much more rewarding, and prevent apex overpopulation on the server as difficult survival means longer grow times are more risky and take actual work. I really don't know why "suffer for your apex" means sit bored for hours and hours in the community when it should mean that you actually put forth a respectable amount of effort to getting to that stage. Growth in Bermuda is more fun for me at least because there's environmental hazards with the storms/floods and also things you can do to increase your bias, but overall it still encourages sitting in a cave with the comfort system, just like TI encourages sitting still in a bush. TL;DR- Growth is a good IDEA and should be an actual challenge and actual gameplay, not afk simulator.

THE ISLE DEVS don’t “Pesky” this guy.... please..

I think, despite all the issues with Evirma, the one thing it DID get right is making the juvies actually have some level of viability (even if right now it's difficult to see because there's only two dinos to choose from). Juveniles can actually hide because the maps have actual cover now unlike the stupid conifer forests we had before, they're both fast enough to be evasive even if they're still slower than adults, and they have ways of covering their scent (certain terrain types do not leave footprints and mud will conceal your footprints for a short time; could be longer). This allows the juvies to actually *do* something even if they don't really have anything to do at the moment. Once other dinosaurs get added, particularly smaller ones, juvie Utahs will be able to hunt down prey and actually be competent at it, and juvie tenonts will have things to defend against rather than just hide from.

I fully agree with all of your points here, having to wait several hours just to have a somewhat even playing field with other players is what prevents me from going back and playing either of these games (amongst other reasons). Great vid.

The immeasurable weakness of the juvis is what really irks me, yeah they shouldn't be strong per say, but many herbivores can keep pace with their herd even in a gallop moments after their born. Some baby animals are very poisonous or have extreme camouflage skills, and others still have unique abilities, like how some baby birds will eject their vomit or feces onto a predator, hell some babies are even better at certain things than the adults, like how hoatzin birds are relatively cumbersome, while the chick's are amazing swimmers and climbers. Any amount of these things would not only make the babies viable, but also actually enjoyable to be as while you wait to be an adult.

This is a really interesting video with a fresh perspective on growth, thank you for making it! I feel like I should mention, that as beasts of Bermuda moves forwards, growth will become less important, as more of a passive effect rather than an active goal. This is a problem we have been aware of for a while, along with the players intense fear of death in what is supposed to be a pvp game. We intend to address both of these issues in the future.

Time to sit back and watch the chaos unfold down here

At first I liked BoB's endless growth, until I realized it meant no matter how much time I spent growing my dinosaur there'd always be some 'no lifer' with a much bigger dinosaur that slaughters me and I have no chance of escape or fighting back. At least with The Isle every adult rex is the same size with the same stats so I know what I'm getting into with it. But even then I still think the arbitrary wait times for growth are insane. No game should take 8 hours of waiting in real life to get to the good part, only to die and start over. It's not fun. I don't want growth gone completely (cause just having full grown dinosaurs with no risk creates like a death match server with no purpose) but I would like it where it feels my time and effort got me somewhere, rather than just losing it all and gaining nothing, even if the death wasn't my fault.

I have seen first hand how some people in BoB would be big adult predators and will go after anything they see, I clearly remember spawning as a mega and 2 big rexs where very close and they chased me relentlessy,at some point I was trying to escape them by runing between some rocks near water but a mossa got me, on another server there used to be 2 very large rexs tho they mostly left me alone since I was pretty much camping on the snow mountain as a scavenger mega,but I do remember a few times I came down from the snow they would be hunting other large rexs,acros and I think they killed an apato once,can't remember how one of them died but it did at some point.But yea giving the babys in these games something the adults can't do that lest them defend themselves or go to a spot that is safe from adults.

I hate Growth. It feels like I’m waiting around for the best part, but it’s still fun to mess around as a baba. They need to make it take less long.

5:04, I agree, in the wild most baby Dino’s can start running as fast as their parents(at a certain stage and depending on what species). Sauropod hatchlings can move faster than their adult counter parts because they are smaller and lighter(same deal with rex and other species, and prey animals need to learn how to run fast so they aren’t easily predated but are still considered easier prey. Speeding up progress for hatchlings and juveniles would definitely help your issue, but then once you hit adulthood growth slows.

anyone remember when the isle had a point system for getting high-level dinos?

While Saurian is a little bit different than some dino games in concept and it's development is pretty slow, I really like how they handle growth. Every section of development has it's own place in the environment, creating slightly different gameplay as you grow bigger and change your abilities. I feel like the reason we all even play The Isle at some point is just because it's the only decent multiplayer dino game there is right now. It's certainly the only reason I play it.

Totally agree. Isle Babies should have tiny hit boxes and offer very little reward to larger creatures. They should have exceptionally higher ai spawn rates, the ability to burrow, or have no footprints visible to adults. Sub adults they got right, making them faster than thier fullgrown counterparts. I'd also like to see a spawn system that automatically pairs you with an adult for protection with friendly fire disabled. You could then leave the group, but only after 3 minutes. This guarantees some saftey on spawn.

Someone had to say it

Saurian actually gets the growth stage idea quite well since the Dakotaraptor juvenile can climb and glide extremely well!

When I fully grew my Rex I stopped playing because you can't die if you don't play lmao

I agree with the points you have made. Growing in the Isle is a chore, it’s boring, stressful, and at times feels unfair. I always thought that it was weird how juveniles were just much weaker versions of the adults that had nothing going for them. The fact that you also have to worry about anything slightly larger than you also sucks. Instead of exploring the map or doing anything, you end up staying in one spot for about 2-3 hours before leaving because you are at a size were you can either fight back or run. However, if you die, it’s back to square one. I like playing the Isle but gosh growing is just a pain. Especially if you are in a group with older individuals. You end up wasting stam just trying to keep up and that issue still exists in Evirma. What makes it worse though is that the Isle is just a Dinosaur death match game where it’s mostly people just looking for a fight. I enjoy the Isle a lot and I truly hope it continues to grow, but they have to add something to juveniles to make them better at surviving.

I enjoy growth on a game, but I completely agree with you AND I also think growth in the isle (IDK about BOB) is also poorly implemented because of how long it takes to grow to full adult. Sure may e implementing the things you mention that wouldn’t be as much of a problem, but for me, someone that wants to do other things and play other games throughout the day, it’s very unappealing to me that growth takes over 8 hours straight to go to full adult rex. Only to be killed in the 7th hour and start the process ALL OVER AGAIN! It’s just very frustrating and exhausting and is one of my main deterrents to play the isle more.

The trackways that show that juvenile sauropods could supposedly run on their hind legs were preserved in very bad sediment which could be the reason why the forefeet didn't preserve.

Nothing like spending 5 hours trying to grow a carno just to have a rex ambush me in an instant and ruin all of my progress.

Ah yes I love hiding in bushes being useless for like 4 hours, only to get randomly spotted by 4 dudes who decided to pick something with sharp teeth and having it all be for nothing. Growth amirite? Yeah fuck growth.

8:00 So the mechanic turns the player into an overpowered invasive species?

Just bought The Isle during the Steam sale. Waiting for growth is definitely my least favorite thing in the game so far. Waiting for your dino to grow makes sense, and it does give you that sense of earning your big giga, but it's just REALLY boring getting there. The biggest thing that I'm looking forward to is the eventual implementation of humans and flying creatures. As a flying creature, if I'm bored, I can fly around, explore the huge map, and watch other dinos from a safe distance. As a human, hunting for dinos with guns and maybe basebuilding would be cool. But those things may be years from now though.

Growth sucks because it typically offers nothing when you get larger, other than the fact you get larger, and essentially punishes you when you die by starting you out as a baby again, forcing you to spend hours growing again. A way to fix this might be that instead of forcing you to start over every time you die, perhaps instead, the game could simply reduce your growth meter/points every time you perish. Maybe make it so that if you are nested in, you grow 2x as fast. Anything to reduce the grind folks

I know this vid is 4 months old, but kudos to you for speaking my mind through a video and even pointing out that when these logical arguments are brought up, people "poopoo" them because "lul, you're not a dev therefor you can't know what you're talking about like the devs can" Because why would a gamer be any good at understanding how a game works vs a bunch of artists who make the game?

Growth would work seamlessly if the devs actually made Dinosaurs have different niches at different stages of it. Dondi expecting a Juvenile Tyrannosaurus to hunt a Triceratops, instead of giving it the proper speed and agility to chase down, let's say... I dunno, a Gallimimus is Idiotic. We have more than plenty of evidence of Osteogenic (I think I spelt that right) growth in Dinosaurs, and how especially Tyrannosaurus went from a skinny, gangly pursuit predator, to the nine ton bone Crusher. With the way growth works right now, with an ecosystem that favours carnivores that make groups of 7-8, generalistic, braindead Allos that come in swarms and afk grow, Growth cannot function properly.

I agree. I really hope that atleast parents can be given through spawning/nesting mechanics, or atleast AI. Also, it confuses me why the juveniles aren't faster than the adults in the isle. That's just common in nature today, my family raises birds and the babies are always so much more speedy and agile than the adults.

As someone who played the Isle for alot I do agree and disagree with some points. Yes I completely agree with the fact that smaller dinosaurs need to be faster to avoid predators, since they are always going to be weaker then them. But when you get down to the bare bones, if you die as a baby it's quite your fault. And that's why I like it. It's a challenge to grow in a world that can kill you quickly, and it's rewarding to grow a big dinosaur and become higher in the pecking order since you started so small. So in that aspect I like growth, but then again it's very annoying how slow babies are compared to their competition

Scanova: *GROWTH SUCKS* 0:29: TheGamingBeaver Footage Me: *oh yeah.. Its all coming together*

"It's an option" is a perfectly valid point though lmao.

I'll just say I agree And I actually like more BoB than The Isle, I have already lost my hope on The Isle xd

I saw this video in my recommended a few times and I was... skeptic. But you tackled this pretty well, and I agree, for the most part. I can't really speak on BoB, as I haven't played it. Who knows how PoT will handle growth (I'm hopefully though because so far they're handling the entire game brilliantly). But TI is something I know well. It never made sense to me to have dinos such as dryo, maia and galli, who's survival strategy is speed (for the most part, dryos do have burrows too) to be so limited as juvenilles. I love playing maia and galli but I've always despised growing them due to how slow you are. Dryo only gets a break because it takes like 15 minutes to get to adult. It just doesn't make sense! I can't think of any irl animal who's survival strategy is "run" that is incredibly slow as a baby. And I think things like dibbles and mid-tier carnivores could do with boosting too. If they're not strong, they at least need to be fast, or agile in some way. I've always had an issue with how TI balances these aspects (poor para). The only exception to me is apexes. IMO it should be a challenge to grow them. It shouldn't be un-fun, but it should be more difficult than any other dinosaur. Because if you do make it to adulthood, you have one of the strongest dinos in the game. But the issue is apexes tend to attract newbies who are like "wow rex strong im gonna play rex and eat everyone!!" and of course then whinge then they get eaten 20 minutes in. Apexes should require much more smarts to grow than other dinos. All in all I liked this video though. I'm getting pretty invested in PoT so I'm interested to see how they'll tackle growth. Hopefully they do it better than our two current leaders in dinosaur survival.

4:51 Good reason to give utahraptor feathers

Remember 3 hour growth times for apexes? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

I had a lot of these ideas in the back of my head for a while, thanks for bringing this up xD

Big problem with growth is people act like people, not animals.

I rly hope they rework all the juveniles and subs, sub rex and juvie rex should be super light it very fast and then begin to slow down and have massive growth spurts to adulthood, juvie Utah should be able to climb trees but be slower, giga juvies should be super powerful but slow, allos should be average as juveniles and the smaller juvies should have silent footsteps or something.

I do see your point. Balance does go out the window and yes there is some luck involved in growth but it also depends on how you play. Isle wise, Ik lots of juvis die because they call too much or don't stick to the trees. If you stay quiet and pay attention to your surroundings you usually grow just fine. On packed servers it's tricky but can be done. Plus if you want to play the isle but avoid people, going onto an empty server to just enjoy the scenery and grow can be nice. Once I reach adult I usually log off anyway since there's nothing else to do on an empty server. This way at least unpopular servers can get some players. Developer side wise, including growth means the players HAVE to be on a certain amount of time to get what they want. It's a clever way to keep people on longer.

I feel if they made baby dinosaurs faster than adults they would have a chance to get away from danger since they don't have high damage.

Not to mention big carnivores eventually have to mixpack with birds, herbis etc (on BoB) to stay relevant on a smallish server with a small map

5:00 a lot of people don't know this, but when you're a juvenile carnivore in the Isle you can 2 call a AI and they will run up to you, making it a lot easier to kill them. This does not work when you're an adult.

Remember when he played the isle...

Even if I like sandbox over survival, I can understand the importance of growth in order to balance the game. The issues that bugger me the most are how limited your actions are (this applies to all games in which you grow a creature from zero to hero; all you do is eat, drink and very rarely run away from or kill someone. Although most of the time is spent waiting) and how in The Isle each and every single creature spawns identically: from the fast and nimble Gallimimus that is extremely adaptive to the slow and sluggish Suchomimus who depends on water.

While I do agree that growth can be time consuming. Juvies are sometimes impossible to find, because with good camouflage they can sit in bushes and literally be walked by. I mean what else do you want them to do? Shoot lasers and fly? Most dinosaurs don’t even take that long to grow, rexes, gigas do take 6 hours, but Utah’s take 1 hour so if you don’t want to wait that long and still have fun, just play as a smaller hunter, like suchomimus

how growth should work; as you grow up, you have dynamic stats. lemme explain. t rex in the isle kinda does this; juvi rex is fast, sub rex is a pursuit predator, then adult is slow and tanky. taking up different niches would be an interesting concept. it' like progrression- OH WAIT! Progression HAD you start as small, nimble creature, then you become a powerful giant that doesn't have to eat constantly or practically waterboard itself to live.

8:50 With the talent tree. If someone's goal is to grow as large as possible and they need the food so they keep killing, they'll probably take as much damage they can get from the tree. That makes it even more difficult to kill them.

I loved that continental drift transition XD

i love how you put the movie refrences xD

While I don't feel super strongly about it, I do agree with you. I've been playing animal simulators and having moments where I'd be kind of hoping that my baby would at least be able to outrun an adult. It... always ended up not being true. ^^; Baby animal defenses should really be a thing!

honestly, I agree that juvenile should have something that helps them survive on them own maybe small raptors would be able to climb up trees or give the 4 calls some kind of use with bigger dinosaurs of you're species know you're locations so they can defend you for the herbivores and I also agree with everything you said about BOB

i think it would be cool if the environment would offer some tiny caves and holes as a safe spot for tiny dinos. To have a possibility to survive bigger predators in some way and have at least a chance. You even cant stay in there forever because of food and water. But how nice would it be as a baby utah so steal some meat and carry it into a tiny cave :D

it take 4 hours to grow something decent,,,,, but it takes 4 seconds to lose it...... that is the worst problem specially if humans will arrive to the game with guns and rocket launchers

I defenitely agree, like in the isle, you do nothing but walk around, look for a water source, hope that your luck will help you to spawn a bot, then camp at the meat source until its gone, repeat. if you die at games like the isle your just frustrated because youll have to repeat the same cicle of this for the next 6 hours, at a good survival growth game dying shouldnt be too bad of a thing because its actually entertaining and not just straight up a painful grind. About the part with beasts of bermudas' neverending growth, I do think it kinda sucks if like a player can beat someone that spent 8 hours on his/her Creature is capable of beating someone that spent 80 hours on a creature just as easy, but without a limit, things would get messy like Scanova said, so there should be some kind of other way to have neverending growth in a game. I personally think growth based games just arent working that well with PvP multiplayer and would be better for singleplayer since you can optimize certain dinosaurs way better and add actual attacks like pouncing on enemies (which would probably be completely broken in multiplayer) and not just attempting to spam bite the back of other players. Also the fact that other dinosaurs are bots only can be very useful since you could always spawn in a nest, dinosaurs would be actually spread around the map, and you cant just stay at the edge of the map without encountering a single other being and you would have to flee of predators (and hiding would be a viable option since the bots could be programmed in a way that wont let them detect you if your in a bush or somethin). _And most importantly, no mixpacking_

growth can be very fun if devs want to do it here is a good idea: quests that make your dinosaurs happy....for example a triceratops want to rub it's horns on trees feathered dinosaurs preen their feathers or t rex want to take a bath in mud and that would give you about +0.1 growth depending on how rare it is to randomly get it and how hard it is to do a quest for example if a hadrosaur quest is to meet another of your species and friendly call them that would give +0.5 growth but it's also rare to get a quest like that because of getting so good reward this is balance between being bored and losing control of big dinosaurs like t rex or shant and just like you mentioned some special things for babies being able to do for example t rex being faster when young and more (they are accurate too)

Bro, playing as a juvie rex Is the best thing ever-

I agree, it is really damn frustrating to be able to grow up to this size wich takes hours, BUT this has a very important upside. In the isle, growth is something you earn, wich you do not want to lose. So, what does this do? It avoids chaos. Everyone knows the sandbox mode. If not, here is how it works: you just pick whatever dino you want and wich growth it has and just fool around. Usually, this gives a lot of chaos: everyone is attacking everyone, no one hides or is afraid of nothing, etc... With the growth system, people are WAY more carefull than usual because they don't wanna lose the hours of growth they got themselfs, and this mostly prevents the chaos from occuring. (this is not guaranteed though, sometimes there are these sh#theads.) Of course it is still needed to be adjusted, but I don't think it will be removed, otherwise the isle (not beasts of bermuda) is just going to be a boring kill or be killed kind of game.

I can say that, this whole growth system, has kind of had me on the ropes of really deciding whether this game is great or not. The Devs are working their hardest to give us these little in-between objectives of Dinosaurs like self care and other little goodies that reward dinosaurs with evolution points. So if that's the case I feel like they would have the change the A.I in a way to make them behave but also play towards these certain objectives. This players aren't just killing each other to meet a daily quota and everyone can still have a chance to grow up their dinosaur without the fear of being hunted by one 3 times it's size or the boredom of sitting in a bush for about 30-45 minutes and then coming out to eat and drink then going back and sitting in that bush. I've always been a traveller in the Isle, whether I was young or a full adult. I never could stay in one spot or popular spots. Maybe they should add something that rewards Dinosaurs for staying in their biomes or for travelling and so overing new locations, either way the Isle was not meant to be a Simulator, that goes to Beasts of Bermuda or the Beasts of 956, the Isle is a Dinosaur based Survival/combat game. So it shouldn't have to worry about realistic features and what now just as the system feels good, plays good, and is fair.

In saurian growth is fun xD

I completely agree! I wish you could do more as juvenile other than hide and pray for the best. They absolutely need to introduce some fun mechanics/benefits for juvies to make them enjoyable and worth the time. Right now I just AFK in a bush and watch anime while I wait to hit adult so that I can play the game properly.

Everybody gangsta until a giant Velociraptor comes running ag you

*sandbox enters the chat*

3:00 that's the point of growth you have to hide in fear from anything larger until you mature, and it adds different experiences with creatures that you will out grow. Its not only about the "work" you put in and the outcome. the skill in it his learning to hide, be quiet and when to take risks like getting resources and traveling that could cost you your life and progress. you have a lot of good points and when it comes down to it, its just our different opinions on growth and there's nothing wrong with disagreeing. This is about The Isle Legacy and its future with Evrima because theres going to be a whole world of small playables competing with each other and juvies of different large species.

I feel like this needed to be said honestly. I know the Isle has plans for a better more rewarding growth system but the problems of growth are still present. Alot of these games suffer from the issue of huge power gaps due to growth stat scaling. Though BoB has a official server with a growth cap of 1.2 now which is cool but let's be real, a bulk of the community is on community owned servers who will likely never be able to make this growth cap change due to community outcry. Something definitely needs to be done for babies to be more viable and less free lunchboxes.

thank god, i hate when youtubers say "that will be a topic for another video" and then NEVER DO A VIDEO ON IT. triggers me

When you scroll down its just paragraphs..

I had an idea about growth since I also agree that growth is just too ridiculous in the long term. I wondered if perhaps that the speed at which you grow could change depending on your care for your dino. For example if you're injured, sick, intimidated for long periods of time, starving, dehydrating or uncomfortable (like weather and such) your growth will slow because your dino is not doing well. While if you're healthy and uninjured the growth actually speeds up. So the game challenges you to actually care about the state of your dino and be mindful of the environment while rewarding you with faster growth. Maybe even by packing up you gain a little more of a growth boost, though this may be exploitable so it would have to be very small or just not be an option. It would make sense though that living with other creatures would help keep you growing strong and healthy. And I wouldn't make it so that people don't take risks but maybe just enough that you can get that boost while still making riskier plays. You have to be uncomfortable anyways since you need to hunt and this could counter some people from over hunting as well since they may slow their dinos growth by getting injured more often and be in proximity of another aggressive creature, thus slowing your growth timer. It's just a mechanic for growth that I thought could be a solution to the unbelievable growth timers. Maybe shaving off 30 minutes to an hour or 2 from your growth timer could be a good incentive to really care and immerse yourself in your dinos body and health conditions. Maybe eating your favorite food could also boost this. And if you don't care about your growth timer then you can just play normally most people won't starve themselves for the hell of it so it wouldn't effect you too hard anyways. As for the growth timer itself I'd say put it to whatever time you want. For example: 9 hours. So it takes a full 9 hours to grow if you're not keeping yourself healthy and if you keep yourself healthy and happy then maybe you can shave off 2-3 hours from that timer, reducing it to 6-8 hours spent on that dino rather than the full 9.

Actually watching this while growing in a bush :D

The isle is supposed to be "realistic" in some terms but believe me... It's better than having basically only sandbox servers in the game... If there wasn't grow then everyone would be adult Rex in the game lmao. Grow makes the game better

Growth killed my enthusiasm to play the Isle. I grew a rex and survived for several months on a high populated server (low traffic pop was like 70 players). Near the end I just refused to play unless I had someone with me out of fear of having to regrow a rex again. No growth should take more than 2-3 hours at max 8 hours for a rex is just insane.

Thanks for helping me with ideas for my game

Ok out of the idea you proposed the competent juvy is the one i liked the most : Velociraptor , dryo and other small dino could be able to climb or really hide by standing still in a bush , and offering a little reward as an exchange for being rare since they would stay like that for a short period , Triceratops or anchy should be able to dig or have some form of armor , maybe a damage resistence maybe some cheratinus spike that can damage and inflict bleed with each bite , And besides being nible , they are very low to the ground and are very light they should be able to turn while running almost on the spot , and like ever chased a toddler ? They can go for hours give them stamina , That allows them to not offer such a free kill Large predators should by default be very fast when they are young , and be somewhat optimized to hunt other baby dinosaur/very small dino , by doing so you have to practice on inexperienced targets Sauropods should be able to run on two legs and have a ton of stamina when they do so , like i mean , let them have galli levels of stamina with peraps being fast enough to avoid most predators closing in just by walking , it should be hard to survive as a sauropods since fighting won't be an option , but flight will be a viable plan ...

How come that both (and pretty much the only) times I played as an aquatics it was you who killed me? That golden/blue mosa and a tiny white/blue krono (noticed the clip in the BoB Tier list vid too). Kinda funny. And a lil sad... That's exactly why I agree with your points though. Growth to adulthood in any game feels like a timer you gotta wait out. If it's a reasonable timer with something to do while at it (like traveling/hunting AI/hiding from passing by threats) it's not too bad. 5-6 hours of sitting in a bush... might be a bit of an overkill. But when you go from that to infinite growth you open a bottomless can of worms. I've always voiced out how infinite growth = infinite trouble. Infinity is absolutely impossible to balance out perfectly. It's near impossible to compete with big creatures, esp on a small map, esp with how big the scent clouds are and with everyone is the water essentially "wall hacking" with their sonars, hah. You can't run and you can't hide forever. They will find you and they will kill you. The top dogs themselves only really die to falling asleep irl while afk growing (yes, that does sound hilariously bad). And even if you manage to grow somewhat big it is so heartbreaking to lose your dino you've invested so much time and care into... Which isn't saying the game is bad, but does kill the motivation to play it for a while. BoB's devs want everyone to fight each other and die all the time. Then why even have the infinite growth? But I guess it is really hard to let go of one of their unique selling points... They are working on various options though. They are listening, even if takes a while for them to hear/see certain things, still, big props to them. Because they are tweaking the growth and the stats, they are looking for ways to soothe the pain of your dino dying and they're also considering to add an official server with capped growth. That sounds good to me!

Also don't forget how that impacts the way people respond to the constant killing: In the server Official 2 on BoB there is currently 97 people online. There is a herbivore group with 22 people. All of them are huddled up in the edge of the map on an island fortress. That's a full quarter of the server basically detracting from possible game play, and it's all because BoB incentivizes constant killing. This likewise makes being a carnivore boring as crap because hey, almost all of your prey is unreachable! BoB and Isle are great ideas but horribly executed. Ultimately it's going to be the toxic players that kill it because every time the discussion about limiting KOS comes up in public chat people revolt against the notion. So there you have it: there's nothing to do and it's all because the basic game play mechanics incentivize wanton murder and too many players fail to see how this is a problem. Anyone know of any similar games that avoid this problem?

In the Isle, juvenile rexes ARE faster than adults...

I totally agree with this. I think growth is only actually fun when you're roleplaying

God that old Bob rex image in the thumbnail. It was me, Jynn, and Cyke before rex was public... ANYWAYS agreed to an extent

I no longer want to play beasts of Bermuda because I'm tired of spending 10 or 12 hours growing something just for a completely one-sided fight to kill me because I can't run and I can't fight back EVERYDAY! Nowhere is safe. Thee map isn't big enough to just sit around long enough to fight back and why would you want to do that? That's not fun.

Good thing they improved growth in bob roughly two years later.

I agree with you on that the growth should be better developed or overhauled as need be. Though I personally adore growing.

I think an in interesting way to tackle growth would be to add objectives to accelerate growth. Things such as hunting certain dinos or migrating could be good ways to address this. These are things players already do, but at least accelerating the process for players who actually want to play would be a good idea.

I think babies should have a panic speed that heavy burns stamina

It makes a powerful desire to live and is almost like death irl, if you die you lose everything but they do need to figure that out you should only be able to grow if there is a nest for you to spawn in otherwise it's terrible

Really good point good job 👏

Did you know most baby Wildabeest can outrun a hyena within the first 20minutes of birth and they also learn to run 5mins after birth.

I've played survival in the isle 2 times until I went back to death match and just normal sandbox servers. I just cant stand the idea of growing a para for 3 hours, finally getting to be an adult, only to get rekted by a crouching giga in some trees I can't see behind. I don't see the fun in that or in hiding in bushes the whole time (since you cant do much as a juv para if something is hungry enough)

Pot had the worst growth in any dinosaur game ever 💀

I think a sickness system would be good for a game like BOB. As you get older you can become ill more easily by eating rotten meat or as a herbivore getting an infection from a bite. You need to have high hunger stam and thirst to rid yourself of the sickness and the older you get the more demanding resource costs are to keep yourself healthy. Also it would force bigger carnivores to actually try and hunt bigger animals since they have more of a chance of killing them rather than just leaving them alone. Illness can also make the dinosaurs slower or weaker or just descrease they’re stats maximum. I don’t know but I thought I’d toss out an idea

The thing about The Isle is that anyone who is bigger than you kills you, but as you get to adult 1.0 its all about skill (Mainly) and luck. In BoB you need a juvi group to stay alive or else anyone bigger will destroy you, but there is no comfort at .8 (adulthood) or 1.0, in fact thats when even more anxiety hits, because if you die then you die. There is no going back to that exact dino, talent points and inherits play a big role in that. For example I was a full combat .8 rex getting a drink, if a 1.0+ rex comes who has anything into combat im dead, if he is speed, im dead, if he is survival tree, im dead. So in BoB there is no absolute way to stay safe, even as a krono you have no relief as cannibalism is a huge part of kronos survival in my case. This makes many players attracted to faster dinos like velo and ory because they are faster than everything, unless you have like 5/3 speed inherits, and also the ability to climb and tunnel, but you will be killed my people who have put in dedicated time to grow a 3.0 velo. Then as Petra your kind is your biggest enemy, your main prey is all young things, fish, velos, and ory, creating a second game of these three creatures. Velo, Ory, and Petra all compete constantly, making people who are larger in any of the above KOS the other species. In the water on Rival Shores the Krono destroys everything, elasmo spend most of their time in huge groups, large kronos mainly in pairs, leaving mosa as food. Mosa is usally killed by Krono, Beaching, Pt, or apas. Mosa and Krono is not a fair match as even though mosa is faster, in cases where you are in waterfall, oasis, you have a disadvantage, since you cant dart away, leaving kronos to kill you with ease. In any herbivore, you will most indefinitely pack, because apas are the biggest defense you have, and together you are formidible, but also apas can still accidenially yeet you, causing arguements. So being a herbivore is mainly about, 'how stupid am i', (No offense to herb players) But apas usally will have an accident or two, causing raging players and multiple on-going arguements in global. Being a carnivore is hell. I dont need to explain why. It just is. Now that Acros and Rexes have the same growth rexes will come back and become murderers, (Rip my rex ;c) in Sapphire Beasts a rival shores map there is usally a growing or grown pack of predators. Itchyovenators are usally in lala land off in the ocean, darting away from mosa, krono, elasmos. Leaving the other carnis to the land while Itchy stays on islands with water that is to far for acros and rexes to get to, making their main enemy each other. So overall, unless you stay in small servers, your basically screwed unless you managed to eat gores without attracting someone, or staying in a herd without attracting someone, or being a bird. And damn this is alotta words.

That's probably my main reason I don't play Envirma, I usually only play Sandbox due to the structure of it, and that's why I want that as an option.

do you think a leveling system would be better? i am trying to think of better ways to implement growth and talent changes that arent based on idling. one of the ideas i had was to make it based on combat points, earned from hunting and defending. that way, you would need to play the game to grow rather than idle.

Interesting suggestion > ( 4:20 ) That should definitely be introduced to these games. Also, the BoB maps could need a rework. Certain dinos just have an undeniable advantage over others. Especially aquatics, once an ocean gets a large apex predator like a 3.0 mosa everything else is fucked and has to spend even its adult life hiding at the edge of the map. That's 30+ hours of sitting around only to be unlucky enough to run into said mosa and die a pathetic death.

Ironically enough, the way to solve dinosaurs aging and getting to big is if they died of old age

I grow gigas solo in The Isle on high pop servers. I find it quite fun. You always have to watch your back. Once you hit adult it's a completely different game. I actually can't wait for the elder system as I love constant progression.

Nice editing, you seem to put work in that keep it going

As someone who plays the isle I agree. I hate being just fodder for the big dinos it's just not fun. even if I end up with a group I get a bigger target on myself cause I'll just be the first to go for a predator. Also I hate how servers in the isle lock out dinos unless I give donations. Hecc off let me play stego I already paid for the game I should be able to play whatever. Point system? Hecc no just GIVE ME STEGO

You make a compelling argument, my friend. I shall like the video on behalf of your valid criticism.

*three minutes into the video and my first thought is* I wish when you were a baby there were mechanics to learn stuff. Like with animals - babies dont just sit and wait for weeks, months, years to become useful. Yeah, depending on the animal you DO wait around a lot, but there are THINGS you have to LEARN before you become useful. I.E. Learning to hunt. Learning where to get food. Learning to stay quiet, stay hidden from predators, how to be a ____, and (most importantly, or inversely not at all) staying close to your family/mother because you're an easy meal for other animals. So while i see why most people just consider growth to be "hiding and waiting til you're an adult" or "not leaving the herd/adult's side" because that's a lot of what it is in the wild too, so it makes sense that you cant do anything but that - and this wouldnt apply to bad parents/players that already know how to play, but i always love when parents give you tips and lessons on how to be a ___/how to play *insert dino*. I love that and if it were possible (like a tutorial of sorts) id love to see a mechanic like that. But as it stands, i dont really think that could be implemented into every situation. Maybe it could be a small buff if someone were capable of doing it, but it wouldnt fit most situations I'd say. Realistically there isnt all that much a baby can do ANYWAY, and especially in a multiplayer PVP/PVE game setting it'd be especially difficult to implement.