I agree 100%. I don't care for all the motors, apps, loss of feel in e-shifting. I love the cables, like rigging on a sailing ship. No electricity or software needed to ride, which is one of the reasons I ride - to get away from it.
This is a much better way to describe it than I've been saying. Yes, I charge my bike computer and phone, but I don't have to. Forget to charge your electronic shifter and you're relegated to a single speed.
@@RedWingsninetyone I really think the only people who say that are the ones who have never own a bike with electronic shifting. I own two bikes with di2 and I have never!!! And I mean never run out of battery. A single charge lasts forever and when it happens to have low battery my Garmin always indicates the status of the battery. I really don't understand how you can forget to charge.
@@ghroij7757 it happens though. There's just something about not needing to rely on electricity or gas. It's not for me and I just plain don't want to deal with it. It's always "maintenance free" until it isn't. Do you have to adjust cable tension every now and again? Yes. But I can guarantee that barrel adjuster turn once or twice a year takes less time than charging for potentially several hours per year. Are you going to have time to do that? More than likely. The point I'm making is that the maintenance argument I hear all the time is pretty moot.
I use 105 and Ultergra group sets. And I can tell you now I'll be sticking with everything mechanical. It's fair enough to say that Pro racing and if you have money 💰 to go with the next generation of bicycles 🚲 I'm happy using mechanical equipment 😃🚲
It's the first time a large chunk of the mainstream market has backlashed against development. In the past there was always the retrogrouch set that wouldn't move on, or wouldn't start to move on for at least fifteen years. Now it's like every second rider is questioning it. This is a real turning point for the industry.
@@unairamos74 Good to know. I'm still using Campy Centaur mechanical 10 speed on one of my bikes, but need to buy a new groupset for a new frame I just got. I've been thinking about either Chorus 12 or Record 12, but don't really have the money for Record. So I'm glad to hear of your positive experience with Chorus 12. I think that's what I'll get.
@@MikeMPharmaCyclist yes, under evolved. That's why they were always the first to develop 9, 10, 11 and 12 speed shifters, and made the Ergopower system perfect 30 years ago. Yes, not evolved at all.
If Shimano really does stop making mechanical, I will be on team SRAM or Campy faster than a bat out of hell. For touring and bikepacking, mechanical will always be king.
You are absolutely right that mechanical shifting is a more tactile experience. You are also right when you say that Shimano has reached "peak" mechanical shifting with this groupset (and the hyperglide sprockets). It does not get better than this. Part of the beauty of cycling is in the fact that you don't *need *electric power, or a combustion engine or software, to move at high speed. A human traveling on a bicycle is the most energy efficient means of transportion. Adding batteries, complexity, dependencies to software and high costs to such a beautiful, elegant piece of engineering and ingenuity contradicts that. Yet people seem to embrace it and are happy to jump on the bandwagon. Just like they did when Ferrari started offering "f1" electric shifting as an option to their cars, replacing the iconic gated manual shifter. Now the manual transmission cars from that era bring WAY more money than paddle shifters, not only because they are rarer but mainly because drivers enjoy the tactical, more visceral experience of the man-machine interaction they get with a manual shifter. Luckily you can buy conversion kits to convert your F430 to manual shifting, for a mere $25.000
The analogy to manual gear shifting in automobiles is spot-on for me. I much prefer the tactile shifting of a bike with a mechanical groupset, and I don't want to pay more for a heavier groupset, dependent on batteries, that is harder for me to work on (see also electronic ignition in automobiles - unquestionably superior but requires a specialized computer to diagnose and service).
One of the best bits of cycling is the complete lack of essential motors or any electrical components. I feel di2 ruins that with the need to charge a bike
One big factor for me sticking with rim brake, mechanical is maintenance. If something goes wrong out on a ride or at home i want to be able to fix the thing myself. Replace the cables, keep things lubed and mechanical should last a lifetime. With electronic i haven't got a hope.
It is certainly more work, but you can repair/maintain hydraulic disc. Shimano has complete tech docs on it, and there's some videos on YT. Its intimidating but really actually doing it isn't nearly as difficult as the reading might make you think. If you can follow a recipe book, you can tear down and rebuild a Shimano hydraulic caliper. I only say this for people that might be otherwise put off. You can actually repair these (mechanical) things. But yeah electronic can gtfo.
Yep I ride year round in all weather, I use components that are easily available, affordable and non-propriety. Garage stocked with spares so I'm never unable to ride.
Problem is, you can’t have carbon rims with rim brakes, it just sucks, so you’re missing quite a lot of development in aero and cycling in general these last years by going that way. I have a 15 yo bike though, so completely understand:)
@@veganpotterthevegan my C-Record downtube shifters (and the rest of my 1st gen C-Record gruppo) would like to have a discussion with you about that comment...
Last year I took my 16 year old MTB out of storage ( Diamondback response) and after a few minutes of cable tension adjustments and some chain lube, I was riding it down a flight of stairs like I used to….until I popped a spoke 😂 (a liiiitle heavier now) But try taking a di2 bike out of storage 16 years later. The battery will be 100% flat, good luck finding a new battery to get your groupset shifting again.
I have been using Ultegra Di2 11 speed for the last two years and would never go back to mechanical. Other than charging the battery I haven't had to make a single adjustment over this time. It has just worked flawlessly :)
Fwiw.. The first generation of di2 external battery is just a straight forward no nonsense battery pack. I recalled soldering a smaller internal one for it, which was a lipo 2s with balancer (for small model planes back then). Bummer its not straight forward for the later versions.
I think the problem here is the idea that usability after extended storage is some badge of excellence. It’s not. Those are two completely different issues. By your logic, I might as well say that the balance bike I used as a kid is better than your mechanical bike because i won’t even have to bother lubing the chain or replacing a spoke if I take it out of storage now 2 decades later. It will just work without need for ANY work.
You're kidding yourself. How many seasons did you never have to adjust your mechanical shifting setup? Answer: zero. In other words, electronic shifting solved the problem of constant, obnoxious maintenance and unsightly, stretchable cables that always need replacing.
@@MikeMPharmaCyclist Yes, the mechanical need periodic cable replacement and minor adjustment via the barrel adjusters. However, how often do you need to charge your batteries? Do you need to update your software on your phone? What does it cost to replace worn out batteries? Can your shifting software get hacked?
@@sloprun I've never had to update software on my eTap system although you can if you choose to. It's extremely unlikely to be hacked as it uses a proprietary encrypted protocol. I'm not sure how exciting it would be to hack anyway... what's the reward? Lmao.. he's stuck in the big ring, that'll show him! Batteries for the derailleurs cost about $25 dollars for eTap and I keep a spare in my saddle bag with my tube and CO2. Each front shifter uses a CR2032 which cost about $.50 each, and I kid you not my current set has lasted over 4 years and it's still green. You really should do some research on the technology, it's extremely well engineered. No power is used until the moment you actuate the shifter and it's still way faster than mechanicl; it's a beautiful feat of engineering many clearly don't appreciate. eTap is 100 percent wire free and fully encrypted, blazingly fast, and sips power extremely gently.
Regarding your comments on the rim brakes: As Campagnolo used to say back in the 1970s, when people asked why the Super Record brakes didn't really stop a bike all that well: "We make racing brakes for 'speed control,' not stopping."
I have two bikes with Dura Ace Groupsets, one of them R9100 and the shifting is so slick that I have no desire to ever go to electronic, besides the fact that for me the bicycle is pure mechanical. I will be converting back to Campagnolo for my next bike if Shimano don't offer a top of the range mechanical groupset by then.
I’m still happy with mechanical,105 r7000 offers an excellent balance of affordability and performance,Sram force is also good but there’s nothing more enjoyable than a Campagnolo groupset ,and I mean the era when ultrashift came onto the scene ,it offered everything,carbon ,style ,feel ,comfort,performance,you could dump 5 gears in one go and nothing looked ugly (new centaur I’m looking at you )
All what limits you on the bike is «engine» and handling skill. Shifting plays a minor role, even properly set up Sora would not limit 99% of amateurs.
I'm fond of 'nicer' kit and don't have sora on any of my bikes. BUT I have ridden a few sora bikes and it's truly very, very good. Sora and Tiagra are great options for an inexpensive training bike or wet weather ride.
But cycling isn’t just about what “limits” you. Cycling can also be just enjoying having a cool bike to have fun and geek out on. Physical Performance doesn’t always have to be centrestage.
@@slowcyclist4324 totally agree. I rather tried to express that choice between Sora and di2 is question to your wallet, but mostly not to your performance. Unless you earn money with cycling.
True, us the engine. I have 7s Tourney RD on 9s cassette on 20inch folding bike with 28mm tires, as my beast machine to improve overall fitness. Smooth af. My rb got 11s r8020. Me from Bmx, now just want more simple and focus ride. Handling skill will make you feels confident during ride and more enjoyable.
Absolutely right, David! I went back from electronic to mechanical shifting because I like the tatctile sensation of mechanical Shimano shifters; i'm practically born with it 😉
With all due respect to di2 users, I'm sticking with Ultegra mechanical. I can only accept lights, powermeter and gps at most as those aren't really a part of my bike. It just feels weird when I need to charge something on bike for it to do the most basic function, I guess that's what people call as purist for mechanical thing.
It's a slippery slope when motors become a standard part of bicycles, human power only for me. Cars have become too complex with all their proprietary software, electronics, chips and sensors. I cycle because of it's simplicity and efficiency. I keep fit, travel inexpensively and understand how my bikes work and how to do all the maintenance myself.
As an Audax rider I don’t want to be caught 100 miles from civilisation with electronic issues that I can’t fix beside the road. I can jerry rig most issues with mechanical groups but would be totally flummoxed if an electrical failure occurred. Fortunately Campagnolo still make good mechanical groupsets - for now!
Cycling is best with mechanical shifting. Like stick shift in the automobile, there is a joy to mechanical shifting that you will never get with electronic. I TOLD YOU BEFORE, MECHANICAL GROUPSETS WILL ALWAYS BE DESIRED. THESE BUBBLEHEADED COMPANIES ARE BRAINDEAD FOR PROFIT ONLY. THEY ARE MESSING UP THE FLOW OF WHAT CYCLING IS ALL ABOUT. I WILL CONTINUE CONTINUE TO ENJOY MY MECHANICAL GROUPSETS WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT.
I picked up some 9100 Dura Ace shifters,derailleurs, brakes after this vid. I upgraded my 2012/13 Caad10 from 105 from that era. What a great set that 9100 Dura Ace is. Honestly how could Shimano make it any better.
Many people with small hands and/or some sort of disability could benefit greatly from electronic shifting. The problem is the prices they want to charge for it.
Had the Dura ace group set on a Pinarello frame with Mavic rims . Cinelli seat post, seat and Bars and bar stem ...back in 1987....... with a Pair of original LOOK PP56's .. Loved that Bike ......sold it in the Mid 90's and still regret it to this day ......stopped riding once the family came along ...
Campy mechanical was better in 2017 and is better today. I understand you are riding that nice Dura-Ace group right now. But don’t forget about Campy. It is just so insanely good. And has been for 70+ years.
I think there are financial reasons AND professional competitive reasons why Shimano is killing off mechanical shifting. 1. Financially, these groupsets are so good that they last for a long time and most people who ride non professionally won't have a need to upgrade. Shimano want to grow and so doing electric shifting is an easy "upgrade" to sell to the consumer. They are looking for ways to keep their huge consumer base buying more products. 2. I think more importantly this rise of electric is due to what the pros want. Aero bikes with integrated cabling absolutely suck maintenence wise and crucially, are harder to engineer and quality control. So electronic solves those problems. No cables! It also serves the pros with its auto trim feature which I'm sure increases efficiency marginally so they don't have to think as much as they drag themselves over the Pyrenees. These are all great advancements, but only ones that serve the upper echelons of the cycling world. Anybody else who rides bikes for non competing reasons has way more limited use for these things. For people who commute, ride with friends over the weekend, or tour; I see much more limited return on the huge investment that is required for electronic. Once again Bike Industry is focusing on cycling as sport and selling us all the racing products but for what benefit?
If bikes were cheap, I would welcome electric shifting. But at $8-12k, leave me the option to go mechanical so i can find non-electrical parts and work on it for the next 10-15 years.
As a mechanical fitter I go mechanical components 100% over electronic any time. Mechanical has less issues & simple to fix If any of the bike manufacturers gives the customer the options either mechanical or electronic components it's an individual choice.
A few years ago I used a pre generation Ultegra six speed, with a down tube shifter that did index shifting. I was shocked how smooth it was compared to my modern bike.
im a small local custom bikeshop in my area...after more than 30 years of riding...im still in love with mechanical groupset and rim brakes for my roadbikes....i dont see what is the benefits in making bicycles more complicated with electronic jargons and such..it robs away the beauty and the simplicity of a bicycle ,as they are already the most efficient form of transport,sports,hobby and leisure equipment as is....."less is More"...i never liked the "souless"feel of the modern bikes today...
I truly hate all this new wave (marketing BS really) of electronic and disc brakes, manufacturer's are making a huge mistake by discontinuing mechanical groupsets which is the very essence of bicycles. Sad really.
Totally agree. I love hydraulic discs - they’re night and day better - but I don’t want to need to worry about charging and getting my bike indoors to charge. Mechanical Ultegra is good enough for 99.999% of riders - looks good, feels good. The only reason they’re stopping making mechnical groupsets is to raise the ARPU - average selling price per unit. It’s really that simple.
Don’t worry, David. If you’re right, and it is so good/preferable, then market demand and competitive forces will keep top class mechanical shifting alive…if not from Shimano, then from Sram or Campag or the Chinese upstarts.
I am sticking with my 105 mech group as the Di2 is just too expensive for the alleged benefits. I agree with you that it is a shame that the mechanical group sets are being phased out. Technology is great but some things should just be left alone or at the very least we are given the option to have one or the other. Just my .02.
I bought a LOOK 795 BLADE RS with Shimano mechanical groupset and rim brakes. I was well aware that it was a ''last of the dinosaurs" purchase! I don't want batteries, I don't want to charge up my bike!
I really hate the direction of these bike and component manufacturers. From the DI2 to noisy hubs...it's all worse. This opens an opportunity for niche manufacturers, though.
I considered "upgrading' my 6 year 105 groupset to Di2 after 20,000 km. I ended up replacing the cables to Jagwire and deep cleaned the shift levers. Shifting is now better than ever.
@@BICIeCOMPUTERconGabriele I replaced the shift cable once after 2 years. Never replaced the brake cables until just now. However, I did not see any corrosion.
Electronic shifting isn't automatic.. poor analogy. It's more like some high end sports car manufacturers started using fuel injectors instead of a carb and 30 years later carbs are dead in even the most pedestrian automobile.
@@MikeMPharmaCyclist that's an even worse analogy. Electronic shifting is more akin to tiptronic type shifting in performance vehicles, where you manually select the gear and the electrickery takes care of the gear change. Whereas a full manual, typically uses mechanical linkages. They introduced a ton of expensive electronic and hydraulic issues for end users when things go tits up. Nothing more simple and pure on a bicycle than a lever, cable that needs next to no servicing for 1000s of miles.
@@mudbuddies1068 lol how about the simplicity of no adjustments, no cables to stretch, no cables to see or try to hide, and 100 percent reliable shifting with no lag or grinding ever. Luddites will always wax poetic about the telegraph ;)
Pads go off too, they go hard. Put new pads on most old bikes and the brakes are back on form. That C50 is running carbon rims too, aluminium rims are way better stoppers.
+1 Just can't get on board with David about rim brakes and wonder if he has used Koolstop's dual surface pads with the built in plow that sheds water and debris. Dreamy braking with no squealing to scare young children.
Electronic Groupsets and Disc brakes are the Most Nonsense and Stupid inventon that start to Kill the Joy of Riding a Mechanical and rim brake Bicycle.... Period. !!!!
David, I certainly share your 'purist' perspective. Not only do I really love mechanical groupsets (although I completely adopted electronic Shimano) I also really love 'classic' frame geometry as illustrated on your Colnago C-50. (I have a Habanero Titanium 'Team Nuevo' that shares a very similar geometry).
I am old school, and I will not us electronic as long as I can avoid it. I also LOVE rim brakes. I know disk brakes are superior, but I just cant seem to get away from the beautiful rim brakes. Anyone remember the Campy Monoplaner brakes? Those were a thing of beauty!
Most people agree 9100 was the pinnacle of mechanical which leaves Shimano with nowhere to go for improvement but [very expensive] weight reduction. They're taking the entirely cynical route, as is the rest of the industry until consumers push back
Shimano GRX on my Cervelo Aspero. Mechanical shifting, 27.2 seatpost, no front end “integration”. Perfect bikes for people who like to ride their bikes, fix their bikes, customize their bikes.
Shimano R9100 - "Did you hear that, I'm the best mech groupset!" Campy Super Record - "Hold my beer..." You make it sound like rim brakes won't stop you...I think for the non-racing, enthusiast cyclist - rim brakes will be plenty strong to stop the bike and even throw you over the front if you do it wrong.
Who would have thought 6 years ago we'd be saying "Thank goodness for Campy!" But if you want a quality mechanical rim upgrade, Campy Super Record is the last group-set standing. May we PLEASE get a Campy Super Record mechanical rim review please? Thanks!
As I can understand Shimano for dropping mechanical shifting in their Dura Ace line, maybe UItegra too, but no mechanical 105 is wrong decision in my opinion. Pro mechanics may use the convenience of wireless shifting in team bikes but the faff of batteries and price barrier will put off a keen amateur. SRAM doesn't make 12 speed mechanical road groupset as well. It's weird and probably other vendors will step in and happily take that part of the market, which is sad. I've heard that perhaps it is difficult to make 12 speed mechanical groupset but I don't think so. Both Shimano and SRAM are happy making 12 speed MTB groupsets which work excellent even in mud and dust.
The old Dura Ace 9150 Di2 is absolutely amazing, but the weight and cost of the latest 12 speed Dura-Ace Di2 puts it out of the reach of most cyclists - completely; I actually don't want a Di2 groupset for my endurance set up - prefer mechanical - tough luck Shimano; I will be buying a mechanical group set elsewhere. There is a trend in the bike industry to go in a certain direction regardless of consumer trends & habits - this trend is mostly for more expensive and less user friendly products such as Di2 or hydraulic disc brakes - neither cheap nor user friendly thus actually not going to be press ganged into buying such 🚫💿🚫💿⛔💿⛔ Cyclists generally don't want to carry a battery bank around in-case the group set battery goes flat.
Short of riding my fixie, my all mechanical road bike is simple, tried and true. Especially when I leave the computer, mobile, and watch at home. + What's up with thru axels? QRs have never failed me
Great video David, campagnolo is now the mechanical groupset to go to with super record 12 speed an chorus, it's a shame shimano has dropped this group set it's a fantastic set, I ride ultegra di2 12 speed Rim brake, I'm not a lover of disk brake too much faffing about and gone back to rim brake.The riding I do there's no need for disk, rim brake is more than adequate. Bicycle today are too heavy, to complicated and over priced I just want to "just ride bikes".
When rebuilding my old MTB to a full Shimano XTR, I stuck to my mechanical shifters because they functions, also without being able to charge my battery.
I didn't watch this video, just saw a thumbnail and the title, I'm sure the video itself has great content. But without even watching, the answer to the title is simply, money. I have shimano mechanical groupsets on two bikes, road and mtb for years and never had a single issue except periodical cable replacements. More, on my mtb I never replaced cables at all, 5 years old bike. The shifting is smooth and crisp. On the other hand, numerous times I saw my friends failing at riding simply due to electronic gourds batteries die out. Anyway, this is sad but I know that my next bike will have electronic group as well, not because I'm forced to buy one, just because I will want one.
I am NOT a pro racer. I ride for pleaser and do a lot of long distance touring. Why the hell would I want to deal with batteries on a 1500 mile bikepacking trip? If they are going to do this they need to make separate racing (electronic shifting) and touring (mechanical shifting) lineups.
Bikes are mechanical. Riding a road bike you are using your power to propel you forward why would you stick motors and batteries on your derailleur? They aren’t needed when cables work so beautifully well on elegantly engineered mechanical groupsets. I hope the rumours of a mechanical 105 are true.
It's a huge mistake and it's no progress to price more and more people out of easy to access long distance bikes. I accept that the technology is an improvement but things like press fit, hydraulic brakes and electronic shifting preclude home maintenance and massively hike up maintenance/repair costs assuming that you can get the parts. I'd bet there are more cyclists in the sub-£1500 bike market including recreational and commuters than there will ever be in the >£3k sector.
I don’t want Di2. I’ve had zero issues and as I have to buy a long cage on new bikes, it’s an extra expense I don’t need. Looks like I’m self building and splitting my current bike.
Only one reason a company would make a change like this: part repairs/replacements. Batteries WILL die, motors will break, and electronics will go out. They can't make money off of a mechanical group set that CAN last a person's whole life, but they can make money off an electronic groups that 100% WILL have parts failing sometime. I'm glad the population in many places is declining, but this is what happens when companies have a shrinking market to sell to.
rim brakes are 1) much less hassle 2) cheaper and 3) lighter....they work fine. I NEVER want disc brakes. Manufacturers need stop their push for disc brakes, surveys show that at least half of riders want rim brakes.
I think Shimano is killing the very idea of the bike. I'm sad they follow such a path and hope that market will make them return to making top level bikes with no unnecessary motors.
Electrical shifting cost less in production and sells for more than mechanical. Marketing bla bla justifies it for the customers. Its again about money, not the rider.
My #1 complaint about electrical is the use of apps. It’s ridiculous to make a derailleur depend on anything not on the bike. Little dip switches on the derailleur to say what the cogs are would be better.
Is it possible that mechanical groupsets are more expensive to produce than electrical? Maybe thats the reason why Shimano is moving in this direction. If the rumored 12sp 105 Mechanical (R7100/R7120) really comes, I hope it will be as good as the R9100 in shifting quality.
I think it's the fault of reviewers (no offence) all they ever talk about is how great di2 is and how mechanical is not as good they will make customers think mechanical is nowhere near as good when in reality a well set up mechanical groupset is virtually as good as di2
I’m running Shimano Ultegra mechanical with disc brakes and love it. I would always stick with mechanical given the option. I guess I will need to purchase a few spare sets to have on hand in case I ever need parts. Such a shame Shimano has discontinued such a great group set
I've more concern on Di2 than Mechanical. Why, you need update the software to run, parts, battery etc. When the software get old and our phone OS get updated...I'm afraid it will not supported in the future forcing you to change to the latest group set. Just like computer softwares...the bike industry are moving towards that direction.
@@departurexx1520 even the di2 group from 2008 still works perfectly. it can still be connected to a computer and diagnosed. no need to be fearful of electronic stuff.
A bike is a fast machine which consists af many parts. With a mechanical shifting, i can clean/ rebuild/ replace even the tiniest parts of this machine. With electronic parts it's not this simple machine anymore, because there is a thing added to it i can't understand or fix on my own.
In racing you want every bit of advantage you can get. For the open road I say mechanical group set is the way to go. I don't want to fiddle with batteries when riding for fun.
I know from experience that the newest Sora and Claris groupsets are so refined you would swear you were using dura ace from years ago. But yea that’s my belief is cycling should not include electronics and charging to work!
Recently bought a very nice 2016 BMC RoadMachine SLR01 frameset, a NOS Ultegra 6800 groupset and some hardly used Dura Ace C24 wheels. Will be a spanking setup! Build will be finished this week 🎉
In 2018/19 before covid and all I put together an incredible road bike of 'last year's model' type frame, parts, technology etc. and ended up with a Felt Fr1 carbon, rim brake, mechanical road racing bike with DA 9100 full group, Deda carbon bar, stem and seatpost, DT 240 hubs in carbon rims I built. It's ridiculously light, stable, comfortable and the DA group is flawless. The cost was SEVERAL THOUSAND $ less than current stuff. While I'd love to have new Di2, disc, aero etc. stuff, the performance of what I've got cannot be beat.
