@@NatalieXHunter It took me so long to get used to hearing Goku voiced by anyone but Sean Schemmel when watching subbed Dragon Ball Super. But eventually I learned to live with it and I don't have a preference for either version anymore.
@@NatalieXHunter That is true I have only ever seen the version of monster dubbed and I haven't seen any other version of it honestly for me I think both subs and dubs are good
It's crazy how people just strawman the people who want more accurate subtitles. They just think people want literal word for word translation (which is impossible), when it couldn't be further from the truth. There's such a difference between a subtitle that retains the meaning of dialogue, and changing the meaning of dialogue. There was a translator that was bragging about how cool she was for translating "Kono yaro" into "you incel". Kono yaro is commonly translated as "You bastard!" and is often used in responses to a man doing something despicable, much like "You bastard" would mean. It's clear to see how changing this to... "Incel"... completely changes the meaning. It would be like translating it to "chud" or "sjw" or "libtard." In Dragon Maid they entirely altered Fafnir's dub character to be a suicidal depressed emo kid, which couldn't be further from what Fafnir actually is; a literal god of death that can wrought destruction on our world and end all life if he desired. He literally threatens people when he's introduced, such to say if you piss him off, he'll LITERALLY kill everybody. It's obvious that changing his lines to "Makes me want to end myself" totally changes his character.
Completely agree (there's a bit later in the video that actually talks about what people actually mean when they say they want 'literal translations' versus the strawman people argue against)! And yeah, I haven't seen the Dragon Maid dub - only videos about it - but I was really surprised they wrote Fafnir that way, it wasn't how I remembered him from the sub (and he's my favorite character in the series, so...).
I summon Kefka. He is popular everywhere EXCEPT in japan because taking liberties whit the translation just made him a better character. Stuff like "son of a submariner" just work very well at conveying an insane villanous clown. This does not mean such things are always better than a more accurate translation, but sometimes they are.
I was Fan of the Manga 'Please dont buly me, Nagatoro' but knew about its Weaknesses. But i feel like those have been AMPLIFIED TO THE MOON in this Anime: I mean, wtf? Dont call me prude but why are those 14/-Years old CONSTANTLY AND LITERALLY CONSTANTLY AND NEVER ENDINGLY talking about s-ual themes and topics? If your Anime cant have your 15-Years old Characters take off their Jacket or even Hat without a 'Boooing'-Sound, something is off. Something is off a lot. Am i overreacting/nitpicking??!
Yeah if you want a case of literal translation not working you should look up info about the first netflix italian dub of evangelion, which was so literal the phrasing made no sense in Italian and it used archaic wording making everyone sound like first year high school translations of the Divine Comedy. The worst line is in the kaji watering scene "As for you, as for what no one can do but you, for you there should be something you can do. But nobody will force you : Think by yourself, decide by yourself what you yourself can do. Well, I pray you bear no regrets." It was so bad the actors thought they were risking their reputation and it was quickly replaced by Netflix. But the dude doing this (Cannarsi, which literally means smoking a fat blunt) IS STILL EMPLOYED AND DID THIS BEFORE AND AFTER WITH MANY MIYAZAKI MOVIES! THEY SOUND LIKE TONGUE TWISTERS! IN ONE HE EVEN TRANSLATED WRONGLY A DIVINITY OF THE FOREST TRANSLATING IT LITERALLY TO *AN ITALIAN SLUR AGAINST GOD* IN PRINCESS MONONOKE! The higher ups probably think he's right because he's old and has experience. Never translate literally or you'll get something extremely funny.
When she switched to an American accent, I checked to make sure I didn't have anything else on in the background because I almost didn't believe. Congrats on 10k subs.
Haha it was supposed to be an over the top cartoon version of an American accent - I can do a more normal sounding one but it's still a bit hard to keep it up consistently for long (I did live in the US for a couple of years and I've been practicing my American accent lately because I do a bit of voice acting on the side and there are more roles you can play if you can do both)... But if anyone needs a shounen Gandalf hit me up ;)
Any adaptation that attempts to match lip flaps has to change the translation or sound incredibly awkward. It's already hard to translate nuances even with the freedom of subtitles. That's why the best-sounding dubs are often the more loosely-translated ones. Except then you're losing even more accuracy from the original script. You wouldn't want to watch Star Wars dubbed in Japanese for the same reason.
Yeah, and it’s not like they’re gonna re-animate the series just to match the lip movements with the most accurate translation of the script. As long as the dub doesn’t miss the mark entirely, then I’d say it’s an okay dub.
why i prefer dubs i do notice that. Also knowing english and also americans are generally speaking pretty open and loud where as the japanese are pretty polite and keep things to themselves. Why is this relevant? Because in anime subs the voice actors exaggerate moments and speech which is part of the charm, when it happens in dub of a character yelling it just comes off as a character who is loud
@@DedicatedCaffeineUser Yu-Gi-Oh Zexal actually went through a proof of with letting the source files/art be used instead of the final renders for dubbing and was an ultimately better dubbing than the traditional way...but was scrapped for the traditional way
Except that sometimes the translators are just plain lazy or they may have a habit of defaulting to using certain kinds of language that doesn't actually work very well. I don't know how many times I've heard a dub that differed from the sub when it had no real reason to whatsoever, or could have been made much closer to the original with just a few changes that seem to me to be rather obvious.
The language neutrality factor is a HUGE thing I never thought of or seen brought up in the conversation. Very understandable reasoning with just that alone
Something I've noticed is that I like the dub in games but not in anime even with the same voice actors. Even in something like persona 5 I like the dub but the dub in the anime cutscenes feel awkward.
I'm an anime fan that likes both dubs and subs for anime. The reason why I like dubs is simply for nostalgia when I watch anime as a kid so dub anime is apart on my childhood. Right now I only watch dub anime for series that have already aired in Japan for example I'm watching English dub Food Wars Season 3 and I like it and before that I was watching the English dub for Assassination Classroom. The only reason why I watch subs is because that is the only way to keep up with anime airing in Japan right now as a seasonal anime watcher and I don't want to wait days or months after the anime has aired even though Funimation does simuldubs. Speaking of Funimation, their English dubs can be hit or miss these days and not as good compared to what they did in the early 2000s. The reason why I hate the Subs vs. Dubs debate is because it creates a level of toxicity in the online anime community and it makes it difficult to talk about my favorite anime.
Yeah, I think really my view on it is that as far as fans go, fans of dubs and subs have no reason to be divided, but as far as the industry goes, it's important for them to understand their markets so we all get the experience we actually want and expect from the way we choose to watch anime.
I got into subbed anime because I found out Cardcaptor Sakura was censored so badly when it was localized as Cardcaptors. I do however have fond memories of watching cardcaptors as a child.
For me, I like dubs. I like hearing characters speak in my native tongue because it helps me connect to a character more when I hear them speaking english, accent or not. My 3 favorite dubs are the Haruhi series, Birdy the Mighty Decode and Black Lagoon (Where the characters are canonically speaking english.) That being said, a lot of dubs in recent years have been grinding on my nerves, which leads to me becoming a sub elitist as well. A lot of the VA's try doing "anime voices" that don't sound natural and sometimes sound annoying. Especially in tense situations where a character is yelling or screaming, the VA either A: Break the "anime voice" they've chosen for the character while they're yelling/screaming and slip into their more natural voice because they can't do the voice naturally or B: Restrict their performance because they aren't capable of doing their "anime voice" when they're yelling or screaming. There's also a lot of instances where a character has a particular trait about them that you see/hear in the manga/subs (whether it be how they talk or character quirks) that the english VA's don't pick up on, either because they haven't looked at the source material, don't bother looking to see how the Japanese VA approached the character or just decide on their own to take the character in a different direction. Lastly, anime script writers taking it upon themselves to censor or "fix" content they find "problematic". Or just take liberties and do what they want because whatever property they're scripting for isn't very popular. I'm just not a fan of people taking something that isn't theirs and changing it in a way that suits them, when their job is to translate it to another language as close as possible. Offensive or not, I want whatever the author wants to portray and if I just take it upon myself to change something about a character or plot point because I didn't like it then I'm not doing my job correctly. I've been poking my head in on some of your other video essays, and I gotta say I really enjoy the way you present things. You're very open minded and understanding about things you aren't familiar with and may not even particularly care for (such as the loli portion of one of your other videos). I hope you continue to do videos like these and look forward to your next one! Sorry for the long comment!
I would say it's a cultural difference - people who grew up in countries where everything is dubbed and where they have no other exposure to other languages, will indeed find it more difficult to connect to someone who doesn't speak their same language. Conversely, people who grew up in countries where everything is subtitled and there's also regular other exposure to other languages, won't have that problem. Plus, there's also the fact that, for someone like myself, who is not a native English speaker, the English language is just as foreign as Japanese, except it has even less connection to the material in question, hence the preference for Japanese with subtitles when it comes to anime. I think this is something that gets regularly forgotten in all these dubs vs. subtitles debates. This showed with me vs. my Russian cousin (who lives in Ukraine), for example. I live and have grown up here in Slovenia, where everything is subtitled, and with regular daily exposure to other languages such as Serbian, Croatian, and Italian, so to me, watching an anime in Japanese with subtitles (or sometimes, in Italian) is not a big deal, but he, who grew up in a Russian-speaking part of Ukraine, where he was only ever exposed to Russia and/or Ukrainian, and where everything is dubbed, has a problem watching anything if it's not dubbed into Russian or Ukrainian.
The neutrality argument is pretty important. I am, for example, a Finnish speaking person. Every kind of English language is non-neutral with anime. If I have to listen to a foreign language, I prefer the original.
I'm american, but I cringe every time they use a southern accent to represent a certain dialect. It just doesn't work that way. Having the character wear traditional japanese clothes and talk like they're from the deep south is jarring to the extreme.
Torille! Samaa ajattelen myös. In finland most if not all foreign non-kids shows both liveaction and adult animation are not dubbed to finnish. Always with just Finnish subtitles, so we have gotten used to watch and read subs same time
First, your voice is like that rush from your first caffeine shot in the morning - both relaxing and uplifting. Secondly, as an American English speaker, dubs are weird to me as well. The entire feel of a scene is often drastically different from the original voice actors. I want to get the original intent for what the characters are saying, and watching subs is the best way to accomplish that, at least for me.
In the dubbed version of Smile Precure, called Glitter Force, the dubbing company completely changed the Precure names (and called them Glitter instead), even though the original names were already in English: Cure Smile, Cure Sunny, etc. They also removed 10 episodes, including a key episode featuring cure Sunny and her memories she had with her father. Even though it's a series aimed at children, the dubbing company decided it was too much for the western audience and cut it out. As it turned out, Toei didn't seem to like the result, and from what I recall, chose not to make another dub of their series with the same company.
Wait, that's what Glitter Force was? I'd seen people mentioning Glitter Force but I had no idea what it was, and it didn't twig for me that it was a terrible Precure localization! I don't really know much about the magical girl genre, but I'd heard about that Sailor Moon dub where they made a lesbian couple into 'cousins' because they didn't want kids to find out lesbians exist or something, but still managed to leave in the lingering looks between them and stuff so it looked like lesbian incest instead. I find that pretty hilarious.
a slight correction: i meant cure Peace and her past memories, not cure Sunny. they also made several modifications, including changing the great (imo) opening into a hollywood musical and removing the very iconic rock-paper-scissors game you would play with cure peace in almost every episode. if anything, Glitter Force is everything a dub shouldn't be.
The dub work itself in Glitter force is passable but it didn't deserve this censorship. I dropped it when cure march, I think was fighting and her siblings were in danger hidden by a cloud of dust from an explosion. While they were in said explosion these small children were giggling. My immersion was ruined and I could no longer continue watching. Precure didn't deserve this.
I like to call myself an "original fetishist." USUALLY the closer you are to the original in a creative product the closer you are to the original vision of the author. For example I usually prefer to read books/manga/light novels if that's the original, but even with anime adaptations that aren't the original you usually have the author of the original involved in the production process, choosing the voice actors, instructing them etc. It is one huge project of animators, directors and voice actors all working together like a clockwork. In some cases this can become quite extreme as well with some madmen authors like Ryukishi who told the higurashi voice actors only as much as their respective characters knew so the voice actors would perform more realistically, being as much in the dark as their character-roles. And this is just one example. However with dubs this is not the case, dubs are INTERPRETATIONS of a work where the staff that originally created it usually wasn't involved, it is yet again a step further away from the initial vision, especially if the original work isn't even an anime but a manga or a book. You then have the interpretation of an interpretation of the original idea/creation. And worst of all most authors or creators have due to language barriers no way to even really check the dub interpretations or get involved with the script lines and the voice actors etc. And especially lately with anime a lot of dubs take far more liberty in interpreting dialogues than I think is good, adding political commentary to them where it doesn't belong and whatsoever. Worse, a bunch of voice actors and scriptwriters are even infamous for disliking anime fans or the anime community like some certain genshin impact english voice actors who seem to not only dislike the game, but the very community they're voiceacting for (and outright labeled them as pedos). The same goes for a bunch of people involved in dubbing who consider anime misogynistic which they can feel free to think so if they want to imo, but having people work on stuff they don't even really like just feels wrong. To use the restaurant metaphor again it's like eating meat from a cook who himself is vegetarian and considers eating meat bad. It leaves a weird aftertaste even if the food is well prepared. It is much more heartwarming and comfy to eat a meal that was prepared with love. Apart from that: watching stuff subbed is good for your brain. For example scandinavians watch most of their movies and tv-shows subbed, it's natural there and as a consequence they are among the best language learners in the world. There was even a case of a certain norwegian family that was almost out of their mind surprised at their very own child literally speaking fluent german when a german exchange student stayed over. They never taught their kid german, but found out that the kid had always been in front of the tv watching the german television channels subbed. You pick up a ton of language and vocabulary passively and your brain is doing so much background work in that time. I have been able to become decent at japanese without even studying overly much purely because of so much language input. That is not to be underestimated. I learned english by watching tv shows and movies and reading books in english as well (yes I am not native in english either). And well finally: japanese is just a beautiful language. Watching subbed anime becomes more and more magical the more you understand japanese. It is also simply a pleasure to listen to this language. At first when you start it might sound weird but the longer you do it the more you just get addicted to its beauty~ These are my personal reasons for watching subbed. Thanks for coming to my Ted-talk xDDD
i agree with this take. i honestly don't really wanna watch the dubs, they use the same voice talent over and over, and or they just don't have voices that are appealing on the top of not being the excellent original that already exist. i don't know japanese but i enjoy the voices. subs don't replace it, it just is there to translate, which i don't feel like the dubs do well.
I like your comment but I'm a bit weirded out by the last part about japanese. I've been studying japanese for more than 2 and a half years now, and I'm barely reaching semi-fluency. I've also been watching anime subbed throughout this last decade and other than picking up some vocabulary (maybe a couple dozen words at most) I don't think I've developed a substantial ability to understand the language. What's more, I've been stuck for months learning vocabulary (thousands upon thousands of words) because japanese vocabulary, unlike english vocabulary, sounds nothing like anything I already know like my native language spanish... well, some words in japanese sound kinda like spanish due to some similarities in phonology, but my point is that unlike english, japanese doesn't have stuff like latin or greek roots, a functional part of the language that you already know to grab onto, instead it has chinese roots, another language that couldn't be more different from either english or spanish. I don't know if you are a language genius or what, but japanese is a language that requires learning almost everything about how languages work from scratch for most westerners, it's really odd that you didn't need to do that much study to get decent at it.
I hate those things, the worst is people ok with it try to find excuses for it. Yeah like ignoring the original vision from the author is not censorship and erasure... Like the translation in a recent game in which a character crossdress and in the English, only in the English translation, the guy says something about nonbinary. When you see nothing about that in the original and even the other translations. It's the same for Genshin Impact, while all of the translations stay somewhat true to the Chinese, the English one is the only one who lacks a lot of information and changes a lot of things to the characters. I honestly regret a lot, the times in which most games were translated with UK translation. All I see nowadays in American politics as if every anglophone on this earth was American. I'm really happy that in France all of anime/manga/game media are mainly translated from Japanese to french.
There’s actually a kind of similar problem in regards to Bible translations. There are probably close to a hundred different translations, but they all fall roughly into two categories: word-for-word, and thought-for-thought. Word-for-word is a direct translation, with minor tweaks for language differences, such as sentence structure or certain concepts. Thought-for-thought translations are when the translators take a section, translate it, then interpret what THEY think it’s saying. Guess which style is more likely to be exploited by those who might have more of a tendency to force their own personal and political biases onto others? Also, if anyone reads this, I’m not looking to get into a theological discussion with any edgy atheists out there, no offense... maybe some offense. :) I was just struck by the similarities and wanted to comment on it.
i am automatically suspicious of every single professional localization from a group i don't already trust entirely or isn't already being scrutinized heavily by weebs more fluent than me. after that persona vs. fire emblem bullshit it seems like most localizers believe scrubbing the japanese out of the japanese products and doing a youtube abridged version of the dialogue/story/characters is the proper way to bring it to the west.
Truth, the only and I mean the rare only time this worked was Ghost Stories. They need to stop profitting off something they keep clearly disrespecting. I'll rather wait for fanpatches than trust them at times
That depends on the setting. If it's set in Japan, use the Japanese stuff. But if it's not or isn't relevant to the Japanese setting, definitely relate it culturally to the audience you're translating for.
After the fan-translators of the Date A Live light novel have been caught changing stuff, I don't even trust fan-translations anymore, and I can't want for the day when I can watch and read the stuff directly in Japanese without translation.
As a Swedish person there is also the cultural aspect. In Sweden we only dub movies and series which is targeted towards children (disney movies, cartoon network) while anything that targets an older audience is subbed (hollywood and anything else really) so reading subs just feels natural, not to mention that american accents sound weird anime most of the time like you mentioned.
@@andrewcheng2852 Spaniards are the same, they'd bitch for days if a product isn't dubbed, not only in Spanish but also in theirs. What makes it hilarious is the level of entitlement they have with that shit, as a lot of games only come to Latin America with Spain Spanish's dub, and lots of us latins just have to deal with it. Thankfully, this bs pushed us throught the years to learn English in order to not depend of the cringe ass Spain dubs (which, btw, they're usually pretty bad 'cause not only they're over the top but they don't have the "little nuances" found in the original voices as well.. oh, and also they have like 3 guys in all the whole country doing voice acting lmao)
If I'm watching a Japanese show, I want to experience the Japanese culture in it and not the same old thing I already have access, and the same is valid for any other country, including media from the US. I like appreciating the original work by what it is. That's just me, personally, and I get the counter argument but it's just what I like, and the localization sometimes do break the immersion really bad for me. This is why I prefer subs for most of what I consume. The bigger problem is all the licensed stuff now for which we don't have an alternate accurate translation, since it would be taken down and fans usually don't take to translate, and with even the subs becoming more localized if feels like we don't have a place where to run if we want to experience the original except for learning Japanese, point in which we won't need the localization companies anymore.
I love when subs dedicate a small paragraph to explain wordplay or jokes that don't translate well from japanese instead of "localizing" the joke, wich at times completely messes up the intent of the original and in the wost case changes the way you see the characters involbed in that joke.
I used to write for a company as a localization aid until their government banned foreign influence causing my credits to be erased and the company couldn't defend me in fear of governmental turbulence. I think a Localization/ Cultural consultant is INCREDIBLY important. A cultural consultant could prevent a lot of easy mistakes. I had trouble with voice acting since I didn't like how I was directed to Americanize lots of Japanese traits. I was not liked by the local casting directors cause I didn't play fiddle but I couldn't comfortably collect a paycheck from a work I wasn't passionate about.
As someone from a non-english speaking country (im from argentina) i apreciate the topic of the international anime comunity being more than just the USA. For me its always between picking two foreing languages (there is no neutral for me) so it all comes down to what gives me the more enjoyable experience, wich in anime 90% of cases its subs. I play a lot of story driven video games so i know that the VA industry in america and europe can put amazing work. In the same way that i change the voices of a japanese game from english to japanese, i change the voice of an english-centric game from spanish to english. Often it comes not to the difference between good and bad VA but between good and excellent . An example of this was Bioshock Infinite, i played half the game with the spanish dub wich it was good but it wasnt as good as the american voices. Since then all my consoles language have been switched to english to avoid video games defaulting into spanish. This example is what almost always happens to me with japanese videogame/anime dubbed into english, its often (nowadays at least) good but not good enought to me because it makes me feel this weird sensation that the voice im hearing coming from a character (some of the characters....not all of them) doesnt fit the visual desing of said character. Now this is speculation of someone that knows nothing of the industry, but something that comes to my attention is that while i almost always change japanese games from english to japanese, i never ever change european/american games to japanese even if im given the option. I imagine that there is a difference in the quality of production and voice acting direction of games made in an english speaking countries and game dubed from japanese to english. Sounds reasonable, in the second one its a bonus that sometimes might not be a high priority but the in the first one its indispensable if you want spoken dialogue. Even with the good talent (that i know it exists), they cannot shine if they arent given the time or direction to bring this characters to life in a different language. i dont think that im blinded by japanese fanboyism because, while i've never picked a english dub over a sub in anime, there are two series of videogames where i prefer the english dub over the sub and another one where i can go either way. 1 is Devil May Cry (specifically 3, 4 and 5) because the voice acting done very well (or at least good enought) for the kind of fun absurd story that this games often have, to the point that i pick the language that fits better the art style and in this case it is the english one. 2 Bayonetta 1 and 2. I spended a good hour replaying the prologue of Bayonetta 2 because i couldnt pick between english or japanese until i finally decided for english. The reasons are the same that with Devil May Cry with the only diference being that i actually like more the english voice of Bayonetta. 3 I can go either way with Danganronppa, i think that english dub expresses very well the personalities of the characters in this series and i honestly had a hard time picking one while playing Danganronppa V3. I decided for japanese just because i also tend to watch lets play of this games and this way i can enjoy the voice acting of both languages. 4 Honorable mention to Valkyria chronicles wich also gave me a hard time to choose and ended up deciding for japanese because i love Jun Fukuyama and Akio Otsuka. It was really good video with an aproach that i dont see very often since i havent see a lot of people talking about non-english speakers or about neutral language, wich is very prevalent in the spanish-speaking anime community. Try giving a latino american fan of anime a version of DBZ dubbed in spanish from Spain, spoiler it doesnt go well.
Pienso igual que vos, wacho, exactamente igual. Por fin alguien de mi region (mas concretamente, pais) que habla de este tema en una comunidad dominada mayormente por yankees
a side note, but さま(sama) is a honorific used for people you respect, either because you look up to them, or because they are someone important, such as royalty. It's gender-neutral. In anime, this honorific is sometimes used for comedic purpose - one example is from Lucky Star, where Konata calls Kagami as Kagami-sama as a "nickname". たん(tan) is a toddler speech equivalent to ちゃん(chan). Toddlers have trouble making certain sounds, so they pronounce ちゃん as たん instead. This toddler speech can also be used when an adult speak to a young child. ....wait, does that mean Subaru sees Emilia as a young child he wants to protect? I haven't seen Re:Zero, so I'll let the veterans decide :p
-tan also carries nerdy internet connotations, personifications of concepts/objects (i can't remember the name of it right now) use/originally used -tan as their honorific (like earth-tan or playstation-tan)
My biggest issue with translation is there are certain jokes or saying that don't translate well or don't make sense. The biggest ive heard is when my dad watched History of the world in Spanish, while the movie was still funny his least favorite song was the Spanish inquisition because it wasn't as funny in Spanish, once he learned English and rewatched in English did the series did it become comedic genius, another example is planktons Japanese dub , while in the U.S his voice sounds like evil genius, in Japan its strangely childish and girly taking away some of the punchlines. The only time I saw this done well was in Panty and Stocking dub, due to the fact that this series heavily parodied adult American cartoons , the Japanese couldn't make as crude as the Americans, but thats the exception more than the rule
On the neutrality point: As a German who is also very fluent in English, due to, let's be honest way too much internet use, the American accent is pretty neutral to me because I hear it so much on RU-vid and in Games and Shows. But I mostly just watch dubs when available cause I don't want my eyes to be glued to the lower 1/8 of the screen the entire time so I can actually watch the animation.
I say this as someone who was a major funimation fanboy, with the increased entitlement from the dubbing crew and their blatant hypocrisy with their own standers I’d rather all dubbing cease and burned from the earth.
Funnily enough, I just watched that entire Dimitri Monroe entire video dealing with this issue called "The Crimes Of Modern Localization" before I watched yours, and I think he very much hit upon my feelings on the subject quite well. Modern localization has become no better than official fanfiction, as localizers take it upon themselves to censor or rewrite a work, because they are, in their own minds, "improving" the product. Funimation and Crunchyroll have gotten really bad about this, and it has soured my taste on dubs completely in recent years.
That language neutrality argument encapsulated most of my opinion in a more eloquent fashion than I could have ever thought up on my own. My other reason why I don't really like most dubs is because for some reason, it always sounds like the actors are speaking from across a big empty, somewhat echo enhancing room or they're trying to shout at someone "without waking the neighbours" so it comes of as somewhat strangled. Another thing that makes me prefer subs is because I feel more invested in the story when I read it. I remember more if I'm watching actively than if I'm just letting it play out without my own effort. And then there's the issue of overacting to make it seem more cartoony in a work that's supposed to be serious or somber. I just imagined Ergo Proxy with the voices you did 🤢
With that said, I have two exceptions to my distaste of English dubs: Cowboy Bebop (Big surprise huh? I guess not.) and anything starring Johnny Yong Bosh I'll at least try.
My philosophy is to respect the creator by staying as true to the real translation as much as possible. If I was the creator, I would probably get mad if someone shoved their personal agendas into my creations, or thought they could make my creations 'better' by changing up the translation to their own preferences. At that point, it's no longer about translating and more about the localizer's ego. Who cares about lip flaps? The only time I'll probably look at someone's lips is if I wanna kiss them and 0/10 times that's the case because these characters are not real.
I prefer dubs for the simplest reason. I like to watch shows rather read shows. I'd rather not miss out on the amazing animation just because I have to spend 85-90% of the time staring at the bottom quarter of the screen just to understand what the characters are saying.
This will certainly be interesting. I'm a dub guy myself, mostly because I respect the massive amount of effort and length has to go into dubbing from a localization standpoint and an acting one. The Yakuza series, despite being a game, in my eyes has fantastic localization despite most of the series being in sub only. But I will admit, recent years have shown me what happens when people aren't dubbing to bring foreign entertainment to us for fun reasons. Funimation being a titan who's fallen from grace is a prime example of such nonsense. I'm curious to hear what you'll say
The Yakuza series is an interesting one, because people tend to hate the few dubbed entries, even with the likes of Mark Hamill acting in them. I've only played Zero, Kiwami and Kiwami 2 (because I'm on XBox and the franchise isn't all out on XBox yet) which only have subs (though tbh I'd play with subs either way for the same reason I prefer subbed anime) but I agree the localization is really good, though I don't think they're heavily localized. It would be inappropriate to the games to replace a lot of the Japanese cultural stuff because it's such a big part of the games themselves, so they leave most things in in the subs.
@@NatalieXHunter Its universal among fans that the first original games that were dubbed are widely mocked and disliked. It was during a time where dubs weren't taken as seriously or fully understood how to do properly. It wasn't until the spinoff game of Judgement that an English dub was seen for the series again which I personally played in English immediately just because I was so surprised they would actually use the money and effort to make a dub. Good dub too imo. And in terms of localization, for Yakuza it comes in the form of conversation. The game does a great job subtitling everything so naturally and fitting. I remember watching a clip of the vtuber, Kiryu Coco, who was playing Yakuza 7 in english after playing it in Japanese and she was having a blast at what ended up getting translated like the insults being unique since its my understanding you can't really translate that sort of thing into English from Japanese easily since I don't think they have many "creative" insults to use. That aside, there are things I sorta disagree with you on here but overall I do understand your points and agree with some of the more important ones. I for one think dubs are very necessary to help others get into the medium and I also think the fact that they've improved and evolved so much in such a short amount of time shows how good they can and have been. But a genuine issue with recent dubbing are the companies doing them and the toxic mentality they seem to be instilling in their actors. Funimation is obviously the worst offender for the amount of transgressions they've done to both anime and the people watching it. I do agree that translations should just be that, a translation, especially if that's what you're being paid to do. But I think in the case of things like anime, localization is necessary for some anime and games to even garner an audience in the west. For me personally, there's a lot of anime and games I've seen in sub and dub that when the full on Japanese culture is on display, I simply can't resonate with it fully. Not because I hate it or anything but because when it goes on for so long and I'm just simply not educated on the matter, I just lose interest because its not written to be explained but rather assuming the audience already knows. Makes sense if you're already Japanese obviously as that's who its intended for, but its the equivalent of watching people giggle to themselves about an in joke they made and you're forced to just deal with it since they won't tell you until you've learned about it yourself. Again, not a world ending issue but certainly annoying at points. I particularly remember a moment in Persona 5 Strikers where the characters were all talking about some Japanese local food they wanted to get and an entire joke that I believe had to do with a Japanese pun on the food or something to that effect was just fully there and I felt confused and a little ostracized. Its not an actual issue to cry over or anything but I sat through it and felt like nothing happened. I almost felt dumb in a way even though I simply wouldn't have understood it as an English speaker. That's why I believe localization, when used properly, can be good enough to respect the source material while also including others who wouldn't get the culture as easily. I agree that it helps newcomers but I still think when done right, it wouldn't be much of an issue for longtime fans and weebs alike. The only other things I can currently think of are the way dubs sound and the elitism. Dub elitists are definitely bad but Sub purists have known to be equal on that front. Especially when the debate devolves into accusing a fan of being inferior for simply preferring dubs. Both are bad for the community in my eyes. And the whole mismatched accents thing is more than likely more complicated than you give it credit for. I've seen often how people criticize va's for using accents that isn't their natural voice. I imagine most are told to stay away from using them if they don't naturally speak that way so dubs will usually have that American accent to avoid causing trouble. I cannot confirm any of this as its just my take on it but I do think that it also depends on who the dubbing company has on call as well. That's why a game like Xenoblade Chronicles has the characters speaking in European accents since the dubbing company that took on the task was based in Europe I believe. I'm not really qualified to speak further on this but that's just how I take that point. Overall though, really good video as usual. Your essay stuff always impresses me. Sorry for the long comment though. I tend to ramble
I haven't played Judgment yet (I don't think it's come to XBox/PC yet, and given how long I spend on each Yakuza game I'd never get anything done if I just bought a PS4 to play all the non XBox ones now I'm into them, so I'm kinda cool with Sega rationing them out to us XBone plebs one at a time haha), but didn't know it had a dubbed localization. I'm still going to play it in Japanese, but it's nice to know they're making dubs because there are a lot of people who'd love the games but understandably don't want to play 100 hours of something with subs, so are put off trying them.
@@NatalieXHunter Tbf, a surprisingly large amount of Yakuza players don't actually mind the subs. In fact I'd be bold enough to say all people who enjoy Yakuza just love the series plain simple, subbed or dubbed since 7 was also well received. I was kinda iffy on it myself but the writing for it all feels very natural and many tend to agree. The subs fully match the Japanese acting and emotion put forth with no real awkward or stilted translations or specific liberties taken that overstep their bounds. Its a true and genuine localization that captures the intent and spirit of the original Japanese but for English speakers. If that weren't the case, I would've stopped after 0 but that was a damn good game for me so I didn't really care if it was subbed or not. Quality is quality after all, no matter the language
As a leftist I actually genuinely hate the “patriarchy” and “gamer gate” add ons in some dubs. If I wanted to read/watch something about these issues I’d look for someone who made something about it, not something that wasn’t intended to include these. It feels more like corporate pandering and not like a genuine decision by an artist. I want to watch something as close to the original as possible. I also think that it’s disrespectful to the original author. If I don’t like the message of a story, I’ll maybe word why and keep it at that, not change it or make inclusions I see fit. I feel like people either justify these changes with “wokeness” or blame it on it, but damn, I can tell you a lot of lefts it’s find this shit annoying and disrespectful.
When it comes to sub vs dub. It just seems so one sided as I have seen more people attack others for watching dub, I have seen people say there is no good reason to watch dub unless your lazy. I have some friends who are dubbed only cause that is there preference and due to that, I know what anime has a good or bad dub more often. Nowadays, dubbing has been a lot better then in the past and shows like love is war didn't get noticed for a good dub until months after it was finished. Sub watchers almost always bring out an example of cowboy beatbop, and ghost stories as good dub and use dragon maid as an example as why dubs are bad but it makes them look like they attack what they barely know with dubs. I'm a mix of sub and dub watcher. If I like a show enough, I'll watch both versions with a case with dragon ball, there are so many different takes on the series that I love exploring. Im so used to seeing original interpretation by the author that I want to watch stuff like the big green dub, ocean dub, and the original funimation dub of DBZ and experience as much as I can. That is probably why I'm not so strict on dubs and it being the only good experience and you have to watch it as its the most accurate version. I just find hating on dubs to be overrated.
Time to move to Italy to make weeb friends XD One thing I’ve noticed is that English dub VAs don’t portray quiet or kuudere characters well. In Japanese they sound quiet but have layers of emotion underneath. In English often sounds bored or robotic. (Perhaps this is due to cultural differences in how quiet characters are interpreted.) This is one of the reasons why I prefer subs
I think it should be obvious why people like subs and are very picky with translations, they want to have the full experience that is usually lost in translation. There is one thing that I hated back in the day was 4kids censoring shows making them confusing. As well as mangas with bad translation can be terrible for the reading experience.
I like both :) I just dislike sub fans who disrespect dub fans for preferring a different language of THE SAME show. Like fine have your preferences but don’t attack others for there’s. Also great video as a guy who does prefer dubs generally you helped me understand a bit more about why people like subs so much :))
I am someone that mostly sees dubbed anime every time I have the option and I really enjoyed the video, it was like a reverse cartoon cypher video lol, the conclusion that anime translations can have about three target audience was something I never thought about it but made a lot of sense
Once again you created a great video essay. The fact that you add more than one perspective when dealing with such nuanced topics while being clear with what your stance is and how it should be dealt with is why I love your essay video. You don't try to be close-minded, which is something that I always strive for. Also, is there any chance that your future video will discuss the 86 anime? Since you have done a wonderful analysis of Attack on Titan's themes of racism and military, prevalent themes in 86, I was hoping to hear your thoughts. If not, it still fine because there is always Re: Zero content. :) Anyways I hope you have a good day.
It's weird, I actually thought about making a video exactly like that about 86, but everybody's 86 videos were doing so badly I kinda put the idea on the backburner to do when I feel like just making something out of interest (like my Vivy and AI video) so while I'll probably do it some time before the season ends, I'm not sure when. I think it handles those ideas in a really interesting way.
I really like having a choice. Dub adaptations aren't perfect, but you have to remember subtitles aren't either. In the end I treat the choice on a case by case basis. I tend to watch more subs but unless a dub has a bad rep (or isn't already availlable / comes out late) I give it a try first. If it feels odd I switch to subs. The series where watching a dub tends to enhance the experience the most are comedies, I find, since reading a joke that works better heard is way less funny and could lead to synchronisation issues where you read ahead and spoil yourself what is going to physically happen on screen in a sec or two or the way the line is said is part of what makes it funny, which is easily lost in subs but is replicated in dubs. Also if a series boasts both incredible visuals and lots of dialogue it's hard to apreciate both at the same time while reading subs. I know I have a slight advantage when it comes to dubs. I'm french and know English well enough, so that's twice as many languages to chose from, meaning a higher amount of shows with a good dub. France is known for having high standards for dubs in general, I find. Other countries like Germany are sometimes more focused on quantity than quality, which has other benefits. I'm curently watching Monster's French dub, one of the best examples where watching a dub makes more sense since it's set in Europe and both English and French are closer in origin to the German used in canon. It's an edge case, of course, but it's not the only show where Japanese would not make more sense or there's no clear answer to what language would be spoken. In Carole and Tuesday all written texts and songs are in English. In Astra lost in space the story is set so far in the future that realistically any language could have been used by these imaginary future people. Fullmetal Alchemist? Any European language can work there a little better than Japanese can. There's also the cases of series where once you get used to one of the voice actors in a specific language it's really hard to listen to other interpretations because of the huge differences. Even years after last watching any episodes in the French dub of Pokémon it still feels weird hearing the comparatively mundane kid voice of Ash in the English dub and even weirder the one in the Japanese version. And it's not like I watched a lot of Pokémon as a kid: Ash's French voice is just THAT memorable to me.
Dubs of shows that probably don't need them are any that don't translate the singing, by which I meant shows like Symphogear, Macross, and AKB0048. If the plot relevant songs are still gonna be in Japanese, why dub it?
I think it matters whether the characters in the anime are Japanese, in Japan. If so, then I think it's important to get across all the nuances that were there in Japanese, such as social status and relationship signifiers, even if no self-respecting English speaker who wasn't a hardcore fan of Japanese media would say the line in public. If not, especially if the anime is speculative fiction (sci-fi and/or fantasy), then I ask myself: "Would a native English speaker of the character's social status, personality, motives and relationships to the other characters in the anime or game, who didn't know any Japanese and wasn't a fan of any Japanese media, say it in that situation, to that character and in response to the last line of dialogue?" If not, the line just doesn't ring true or sound authentic and it feels like the character has no reason to say it, even if it's necessary to get across the nuances of the original line.
Some dubs are very bad, but I haven't heard a particularly bad one in a long time. I basically need dubs so I don't have to glue my eyes to the bottom third of the screen at every moment. I generally don't have time to sit down and do absolutely nothing except watch an anime, so if I'm doing chores and watching subs, I miss basically everything that's happening. Also it's interesting that American accents breaks your immersion for a Medieval setting, but you actually perceive a foreign language as neutral. I don't find it neutral at all. I just look past the immersion break. I also can't recall any English dub where the voice actor does a cartoonish performance, with the exception of shows that are already comedic or during a comedic moment.
I'm a brazilian and our dubs are usually hold in very good regard by everyone, there is none of the animosity that the english dub receives. The difference i think is that the dubs here make the effort to keep the original meaning of the media being translated insted of "localizing" it. I'm a weeb since my teens and i'm one of those that will watch an anime just because it has a Seiyu that i enjoy, like Miyuki Sawashiro and Norio Wakamoto just to name a few, and i still like the dubs, in fact some anime like dragonball i can't decide which version i like better.
It's the same thing with subtitles. I ended up watching Sailor Moon Cyristal with Brazilian Porutugese subtitles (yes, that's one of the languages I have learned) because they kept things as close as possible to the original, while the English subtitles translated metric units to imperial, Japanese school years to US school terminology, etc., which is just a big no-no to me.
When you are weeb enough, you will start finding mistranslations in the subs. In dubs that's not really an option unless you are a native speaker or at least close to it in both languages.
For me one of the big reasons why I prefer subs over dubs is that the high pitch Kawaii female voice just sounds cringy in English. I also like to hear the expression in the original voice actors voice.
I really love that you're creating more long-form videos. I always appreciate the coherence of your arguments, as well as the evident thought that is put into your work!
many thank you for so many points that have enlightened me. My argument used to just be "because I grew up speaking the language" (made in Japan) and "I tried to listen to dub and it made me cringe", my arguments are weak, and in truth, I've concluded that I am thankful for dubs and/or subs, mainly because I remember the days when there were nobody to talk about Japanese animations, but today, there are many people whom when I say "You know, when Monkey Punch came to anime-convention, I was his translator when people came to ask for his autographs" people would say "Oh I love Lupin III". Whether good or bad translations and localization, I think it's a good thing if it started popularizing and people started passionately debating whether dub was better than sub or vice versa, people get passionate only when they care about the subject I think, also as long as it's not piracy and the anime studios earn profits, it's a good thing. Though there are many times I'd wonder "how are they going to translate X or Y?" (for example, I always wonder when a character speaks in kansai-ben, and do/will the audience get the cultural joke?) Just a side-note on your closing sections on fan-translation on light-novels, please research on the frustration that was tweeted by one of my favorite author Maruyama ("Overlord").
For me sub > dub for few reasons: 1) Acting, listening to dubs often feels to me like listening to audiobook - just reading script in 1 pitch and tone, no emotions included. In subs sometimes the seiyuu can bring out emotions out of someone as apathetic as me. 2) Politics, honestly Funi can buzz off, let's just ruin show and characters just so they can show up how woke they are. 3) I just prefer reading, and absorb to some degree 2 foreign languages, sometimes spot difference with translations. And tbh, I quite miss the fansubs, there were meme-tier ones, but also some really good ones, so everyone had choice which one to watch. And considering the competition, the quality was more often good than bad. Now it's just stick to CR (hit or miss), Funi (kill it with fire), Netflix (often atrocious, changing the entire characters, translating names). Dunno about other sources, but when you had quite a lot more choices, and trusted groups, you knew where to turn. Also, it's quite surprising that Re:Zero LN translation is soooo far behind in english, considering in Poland (where anime/manga/LNs are probably waaaaaaaaaaay more niche then in US/UK/other EU countries) will soon release volume 24 (with 1 volume/3 months pace).
It's only Poland that is that far ahead - it's kind of a joke among Re:Zero fans that you have to either read the fan translations of the WN, learn Japanese, or learn Polish! I don't know if the publishers in Poland are that on the ball with everything or if it's just Re:Zero, but Polish is the only language that close to where the Japanese novels are up to.
@@NatalieXHunter It kind of depends on publisher. Waneko for example have quite a few titles either completed or at same volume as JP publisher(No Game No Life being one of examples). On the opposite side of the spectrum we have Hanami, with glourious titles (Vinland Saga, Monster, Mushishi), but are far behind with extremely slow schedule (you can literally stalk one title for a half a year without any updates).
I suppose it kind of balances out then (though since you can speak English I guess you have to switch from Polish to English if a series stalls like that, unless there are a lot of Polish language fan translations too).
What do you mean by "politics?" Of all the dubs I've watched, I've never seen any shoehorned-in message or anything like that. The only time I've heard of that happening was watching this video, but is it really that common?
@@Zarastro54 Probably not that common, I'm not watching dubs, but just the fact that threat of shoehorning exists, removes all interest in dubs for me. I don't want to watch for entertainment only to have some random BS thrown down my throat. Heck, even when it comes to licensing Funi showed us how hard they can drop the ball during Ishuzoku Reviewers/Interspecies Reviewers, it's almost like they have no goddamn idea what they are subbing/dubbing. Aaaand the some of the old dubs were so bad (Ghost Hunt), if they were released today, you would watch Funi's offices burn if the twatter puritans would find them out (sorry, I just absolutely detest twitter). Sex jokes, racist jokes, just fully dicking around without any cohesion to what's going on.
Personally I've always been partial to subs since they're common in my country to begin with, and also because Japanese sounded somewhat pleasant to my ear even before I actually started picking it up (the general phonology is pretty similar to that of my native tongue despite them being in completely different language groups). What acted as the sugar on top was noticing that the original FMA gave Alphonse's lines a little echo, like the sound was actually coming from an empty suit of armor. It's minor, to be sure, but I appreciated the additional effort.
As a French, I prefer translations with notes over localizations or dubs. For contextualization, we got our first introduction to the Japanese animation with really deplorable dubs which were changing a lot of places' name, characters' name or even sentence to "match" our country. Sometime adding voices where nothing was expected (Dragon Ball), making additional jokes (Hokuto no Ken or City Hunter), or removing content (Hokuto no Ken)… And to add more issues, the voice acting was more on the cartoonish gag side than necessary… Well, this was probably good enough for a child. But as I grow up, I couldn't ignore this anymore… Most of the time, I just don't like the quality of the voice acting dubs, be it in French or English… It seems to me that companies only make pro duds for western movies and a few Japanese's movies… :-/ As of now, even if I don't fully understand Japanese, I can feel when there is a mistake in the translation. So the localization would feel even more awkward… 😅
As an Italian myself I have to agree that anime is a great thing here in Italy. Even people who are the age of my parents are aware of what it is. I don't think a lot of them still watch, but they are very nostalgic when it comes to the anime and manga released during the '80s
Glad to see your back, has the hayfever gone away or has it just subsided just enough for you to make a video. On the topic of the video, I just hope the quality of subs improves a bit because it is rather offputting when there's a grammar mistake or if they're just flat-out wrong. I understand that in dubs you need to change words or lines to make them match the animation but it just doesn't feel right in subs.
The hayfever is kind of a thing at this time of year, there are these trees near my house that spooge out all this pollen and even though I don't have serious allergies it gets in my throat and makes me sound all crappy. It did kinda wear out my voice recording one this long, but I think the worst of it is over!
It is really, really stupid though haha! I mean in the UK we sorta use a bit of both, which is even worse, like I only know my height in feet but I have no idea what a fluid ounce is...
@@NatalieXHunter That's kind of funny because a fluid ounce is _probably_ the single most reasonable unit of measurement in the other stupid one. One fluid ounce of water weighs pretty close to 1 ounce (it's actually 0.96 ounces per fluid ounce). So 1 pint of water weighs about 1 pound (again, actually 0.96 pounds), but you still have to remember that there are 16 ounces to a pint or a pound. On that note, liquid volume is also actually fairly reasonable in general because all of the measurements are powers of 2 from each other if you conveniently ignore the existence of teaspoons, but that's just about where the reason ends.
Oh I agree, American here so other than some science classes, mainly chemistry. Its the stupid one all the way. Learning the conversions are a giant pain.
@@NatalieXHunter same in the philippines. we measure height in feet but weight in kilos. then we have other units of measurements (like, using body parts to measure how deep water is). it's all very confusing
I'll fully admit, with how hard it was track down anime here in America in my youth. Born in the 80's. The thought of countries, other than Japan of course, having it aired on tv naturally never cross my mind. Insane how much of a difference that makes in how the country's society just accepts something like that or doesn't.
I think another aspect was that these countries were fine to show the anime as it was and just dub it, whereas in America they were very strict about what was in shows for kids and teens. A lot of stuff my Italian friends watched when they were kids was stuff like GTO that I'm guessing they might have censored rather a lot if it was going to be on in the US!
@@NatalieXHunter Trust me, as someone who grew up watching anime on Italian TV - Italian TV had the same habit as US TV, namely, that of buying series targeted at teenagers and re-targeting them at kids, so any blood, nudity, homosexuality, etc. was strictly censored out, with the national parental organization MOiGE throwing a national scandal if anything slipped through. And of course, until the advent of Naruto, any reference to Japan was also censored out, with character names often changed. Of course, they also bought and adapted stuff already targeted at kids, but they certainly didn't limit themselves to it. While the situation later improved, the censorship remained (only the de-Japonization stopped), but they ended up also adopting the nasty practice of replacing all songs (which are very important in anime like Kirarin Revolution and Mermaid Melody Picchi Picchi Pitch) with (often worse) songs of their own creation rather than just dubbing the original songs into Italian (liky the did in the 80's and 90's, the only thing thing they did better then, really).
Honestly for me, in order to keep my stupid ADHD brain focused I have to read and hear something at the same time. Whenever I read books I have to have the audiobook playing in the background. And while I know some Japanese, it’s really only a few words and phrases, so I listen to the dub as well as having the English subs. It is a bit distracting when there’s a difference of wording but it’s the only way I can stay focused. There are many dubs I really like like the Danganronpa games (besides like two voices) and Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt. For me, the raunchy dub of PASWG fits really well because it was supposed to be a sort of mockery (?) of American culture, so changing it to be the way it is fits. Not to mention the fact that they m talk loud which is something we definitely do. It’s just more accurate the changed way. With the Danganronpa games, the characters voices fit and not much is changed besides that to my knowledge. Those are the kinds of dubs I like. I wouldn’t like however, if the characters voices didn’t match or if it was changed in ways that don’t make sense. For example, Danganronpa 3. The dubbing in there wasn’t great for me. They got some of the original VA’s but some of the voices just stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Take Chiaki for example. She sounds like herself, but she’s usually a very calm person and she just has too MUCH emotion in the dub. You could say that’s down to writing but with Fuyuhiko, he doesn’t give the same “I’m literally a teen who’s part of the mafia and I will snap if you mess with me” that I get from him in the game. He just sounds like an adult to me, which makes less sense cause he’s an adult in the game and a teen in the anime O-o
I totally agree with non-neutrality part, as a fellow Brit. Another factor that you didn’t really touch on though that I feel is important is context of voice actors/Seiyūs. I find that I usually enjoy a sub better when I think the voice acting makes sense based on the original mangaka or story maker’s perspective of a character they might have designed and care a lot about. It’s this perspective that means I can enjoy the dub for Miyamura in Horimiya but I can’t do the same for Hori in that same dub because the sub makes her sound her age and the dub simply doesn’t do that, by no fault of the VA.
Only got into anime (relatively) recently through my wife (who is a life long anime fan and japanophile) and I had always struggled to enjoy subbed as much as I do dubbed, so never really bothered to try the former. I had difficulty understanding my wife's attachment to subs especially as she was happy just to watch dubbed anime with me. After watching your video I was able to talk with her about it with a greater grasp on what it all might mean to a more hardcore anime fan. I know it made her happy, and for that - I thank you.
Greeting from the Philippines. We prefer Subs than Dubs. Subs that are closer to the actual context of the conversation is waaaay better than an American Localized Dub/Sub.
I think one limitation of the English language is with regard to regional dialects. In the original, some characters speak in a dialect from the Kansai region (there are different dialects within the Kansai region, but Osaka dialect is among the most common in anime). I could be wrong, but I don't think there is something equivalent in the English language that works just as well. Because of this, it's not unusual to see dubs where girls from Kansai end up speaking exactly like the other girls.
I'm at the point now where even though I can't speak Japanese I can tell when someone has a Kansai dialect - I spent enough time with Goro Majima to internalize it hahaha!
English has an uncountable amount of dialects depending not just on country but regions within those countries, it is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world, after all. They generally don't use any of those dialects with anime characters because then people associate that way of speech to the region it comes from more than anything else and it breaks immersion, especially if the character is suppossed to be japanese (I know they also sometimes use the kansai dialect even within fantasy settings). I think it's related to the issue of no dialect, accent or variety of english in general being truly neutral; there's always something to associate that way of speech to a certain region.
@@inendlesspain4724 There was actually one English translation (albeit not a dub) where the Southern US dialect was used where the Japanese original used Kansai dialect, and that was The Witch Hunt's translation of the Umineko no Naku Koro ni visual novels.
Glad to see you're feeling better. Your voice is soothing to listen to in the best way possible, and you clearly put a lot of thought and effort into these essay style videos, so seeing more of them on topics like this would be fantastic.
Appreciate your thoughts on translations, Subs, and dub. I had been only watching dubs cause of something I was born with it. Still, I have same thoughts as you for while when came to anime English dub. Love the video and wish you great heath.
You bring up solid points but dubs are more convenient. I can watch the anime + clean my room or something cuz i can understand what they say. That said, never knew they had changed it that drastically. I may try subs intentionally. Ive watched a few subs and the subs are distracting 😭
I completely agree with you. Most American dubs lack the flare that the original Japanese voice actors provided in the first place. Great American accents by the way.
the part were you mention how if someone were to chose from one foreign version to another rings so true for me. I'm not a native english speaker, and while dubs in my language existed, that stopped a while a go, so I've been consuming anime in sub form and manga in english for good while. and hearing the english dub is just alienating, it doesn't speak to me, my culture or my experiences, so a more literal translation is always the better option.
Japanese as a language has more expression at it's base making it as a whole feel more animated and expressive since expressive tones and sounds are literally interwoven into the speech itself. Studying Japanese I've had teachers tell me 'Don't say huh or what even in Japanese just make this sound people will know you are confused.' Which is where you get more of an expressive sounding character. Sentences flow more naturally in Japanese with how the characters are emoting on screen both because it's animated with Japanese in mind and because of the ability for the language to feel expressive while English is very straight forward and flat. Plus a lot of cultural jokes just don't land in English. Same with word puns...it's just not fun when they need to rewrite a joke in english poorly for it to make any kind of sense.
After watching your video, I was able to see the Sub vs Dub debate with more objectivity. Things such as honorifics, the question of localized subs, and the neutral dub (as perceived by the audience) are important factors, and you made your case as to why you prefer subs in a very well written and elaborated way. If it's okay, I would like to share my story in regards to this. When it comes to anime, the Spanish dubs were always the most natural to me, whereas English dubs sometimes felt a little awkward. When I started watching the shows in Japanese, it was like entering a refreshing new world, where honorifics clued me into how characters related to each other, where characters spoke with a certain passion that I could never find in a translation, in which the characters felt more real because they were being presented in their most original state. Currently, it is incredibly important for me to see the Japanese version of any given show, and if only the English version is available, I am tempted to skip it until I find the Japanese one. Like yourself, I am currently learning Japanese, which I believe is a lifelong endeavor and adventure. Congratulations on learning Hiragana and Katakana, and I hope that, as you stated, you are able to learn Japanese quick enough consume light novels in their original language (perhaps if you learn just enough vocabulary and phrases to understand common dialogues and setting descriptions, that would be just enough to consume Japanese media, but a more nuanced mastery of the language would take a lot longer in my opinion). Thank you for your content. If it's okay, I would like to share a link to a parody video I made on the debate of subs vs dubs . ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-H46VdzWF6Kg.html
This was very interesting to listen to. I admit I was a bit resistant when I first saw the title because the "elitist" label put me off. I like both, but I enjoy dubs because I can appreciate the art and animation more when I'm not glancing down at the bottom of the screen every few seconds. But I really appreciated the way you explained yourself, and you made me think about a lot of things I hadn't considered. I HAVE done the work of getting to understand a lot of Japanese cultural nuances like honorifics and such, so it does bother me now when both subs and dubs leave that stuff out, and there are certain shows where I prefer the sub because the dub is just too localized. But I also have friends who are much more casual anime fans than me, and when I recommend shows to them, I have to find out where there's a dub so they can watch it. So I understand the value of both. I want to talk about my favorite shows with my friends, even if they don't get all the cultural nuance.
Well, I was just calling myself an elitist kind of ironically - people know I watch all the trashy isekai I can get my hands on so I definitely don't think I'm a more discerning viewer than people who watch dubs!
@@NatalieXHunter Oh, I'm very much an isekai fan too, lol. I'm not tired of it at all. I actually started watching you because of your response to that one video which shall not be named, but I appreciated your viewpoint so much that I subscribed. I was thinking about making my own video titled "I'm Not Tired of Isekai," but I don't think it's necessary. You and many other people have done a fine job of responding to that very, very bad take.
I watch the dubs primarily because I can't focus on the art or background. I see your point on a neutral accent. I enjoy the art and can't focus on the subtitles and read them as fast as they go by.
Yeah, I agree. Subs are pretty good regardless of which country it's from. K dramas are enjoyed by my mother on its base language. Even though we speak different languages at least the cultural influences are highlighted and understood more in the original or as you call it the closest basic translation.
For me as an American, I feel like the reason I don't really like dubs is because people speak a little differently than they do in say, any American live action show. Though honestly, I didn't realize this until I played Genshin Impact with a Korean dub (one of the few games I know with one), where I had been listening to Korean voices in Korean dramas for a couple years.
51:45 there was a quote from the manga Bakuman that had the editor posing a question to the protagonists. The gist of it was that the female fans reading Shonen Jump came for an engaging Shonen manga, if you wanted to change it to target the majority female demographic, then it would be vetoed since that’s not what they came for. Same gist with the American anime translation market, I want to read and watch a Japanese product- if I wanted an American cartoon then I would watch one rather then their faux alteration. If I came for Ramen, I don’t want to be served kid cuisine Mac and cheese.
never would have thought i would be glad about drama but its let me find a reasonable channel thats willing talk about things in good faith, more detail and multiple points of view.
I'm not a snob for sub or dub in either direction - I watch and enjoy both. Typically I watch sub on new episodes and when I'm binging older series where dub isn't available. But when available, I will watch dub, and I have a number of reasons for that. The first is I'm very much what you might call an ADHD television viewer. It is in very rare instances that I can make it through even a 20-minute anime episode without me playing a game on my phone, skimming social media, or even browsing the wiki of the show I'm currently watching. Unless it's a series I'm heavily invested in (for instance, currently 86 is one of those shows), my brain refuses to give full attention to what I'm watching. Because of this, it is sometimes very easy to lose track of what is being said in the sub because my attention is split. To go along with this, sometimes even when I'm watching intently, I'll get so caught up on reading the subtitles that I'll miss what's going on elsewhere on the screen, meaning it can be very easy to miss things. The second is my wife and my oldest daughter hate sub, and about the only way I can convince them to watch shows I think they might find interesting is if they're in dub. Outside of new episodes, I have only successfully talked my wife into watching sub 3 times: Domestic Girlfriend (that's because we were forced to after VRV dropped HIDIVE, which is the only place I've ever seen the English dub for that, and my wife was desperate to see how the series ended so she put up with it); Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Girl Senpai/Dreaming Girl (dub simply doesn't exist, but that was a series she ended up loving to death); and The Irregular at Magic High School (where dub doesn't exist for the first season, but since I'm obsessed with that series she was doing it as a favor to me). However, it was also one of the big reasons why my wife didn't go with me to watch SAO Progressive in the theater - dub wasn't released widely in the Detroit metro area, and my wife didn't want to sit through 2+ hours reading subtitles. Third is there are instances where the dub is outright better than the sub, and I can think of three instances off the top of my head. The first is High School DxD, and it's not so much about the voice acting as much as it was about the intentional American localization they did to the dub - and, quite honestly, the added sophomoric and crude innuendos and jokes that just didn't exist in the sub made the show so much funnier - and kind of made it line up with the LNs more than the sub did. The second is Kaguya-sama: Love is War. Now, I don't have that opinion of the entire dub, as in general I feel the sub is much better than the dub. However, the narration of the series is so much better in the dub. Ian Sinclair knocked that out of the park. The third is the first 30 episodes or so of Black Clover. The biggest reason being Asta's VA overdid the screaming in the early part of the series to the extent that it turned off numerous viewers and dropped the series as a result, whereas the English VA did a much better job of controlling his voice where he really expressed Asta's overexuberance without overwhelming the viewer. It's actually recommended to people in the community that are struggling dealing with Asta's voice to switch over to English for the first several arcs. It also really helps that Black Clover has one of the more solid dubs out there. (And, for the record, I was desperate to watch Burn the Witch in an English dub where the VAs utilized a flat out Cockney accent - and trust me, I wasn't the only one that wanted that) Finally, there are a number of English VAs that I just really enjoy listening to, for instance, off the top of my head, Cherami Leigh, Brianna Knickerbocker (which is funny since you were mentioning Rem), Christina Vee, and, as mentioned earlier, Ian Sinclair. That being said, I don't mind "sub snobs" at all, and, if I ran my own Patreon/RU-vid reaction channel it probably would be sub-only reactions (and, for the record, I want nothing to do with that, and it's not just dealing with the bull**** RU-vid puts its content creators through. Right out of college I did an internship at a local TV station where I did a ton of script writing and video editing, and while that internship was a ton of fun, that was not what I would call "hobby fun"). What I don't appreciate (and I'm not accusing you of this because I know this isn't what you said at all - I'm talking about other people I've run across in various social media platforms) is actually the opposite of what you were getting from the dub community - those that are so serious in their "sub snobbery" that they look down on people that watch dub and sneer at them as if they're not true anime fans because they prefer dub. Dubs are made for a reason - because it expands the anime community. They wouldn't make dubs if there wasn't money to be made in doing so. It's these kinds of actions on both sides of the aisle that hurts the community as a whole when it's simply a matter of preference. You have very good reasons for not watching dub (and your argument that "neutral American English" is not a neutral English accent to those outside of America is a very good point I never thought of), just as I have very good reasons for mixing sub and dub the way I do. Neither of us are wrong - it just comes down to our preferences. Finally, for the record, you have a very lovely English accent that is very soothing to listen to.
For me, the accent isnt as important as "does the voice fit the character." I tend to default to subs because of how many shows the voice doesnt fit the character to my ear. Bebop is a good example of when the voices can fit really nicely. The associations you brought up with your native language is a solid point, and while someone may love a voice actor another may hate them due to these associations. I go by ear, and how the performance feels with the character Im seeing partially determines which version I watch. For any that drastically change content, like Dragon Maid, I refuse to watch the English version. Upon you mentioning it I looked into Re:Zeros dubbed voices for a quick comparison, and while the softer voice for Rem kinda works, if the acting feels a bit off and you are right that an English accent like yours would fit more, Subaru doesnt sound right and its distracting. I did actually hear the dub first through commercials but Subaru himself kicked me hard out of the dub, so seeing him at the mansion was a bit more fair, even if I still think that voice doesnt fit him. Weird, that the commercial told me enough that Subarus English voice was a huge turnoff for that version of the show. Thats part of what makes native language entertainment tricky- the voice that someone has can be a distracting part of it, live action or animated. After deliberation I prefer usually translation to localization as explained in the video. Subs or dubs is dependent on which I watch first and the voices/acting, as stated before. Bebop works really well dubbed, even if there are reasons, and good ones, to prefer subbed. However, we have different things we prefer and that is part of why what the business should do is tricky to say. I personally want to learn more about the culture and the characters, and would rather what I can glean about it be left in where possible. As an entirely unrelated note, your accent and voice is very soothing. As an American Ill say I enjoy learning about other cultures, and the fact so much of English entertainment is American centered, accents included, is a problem from my view, and doubly so that its a niche within that demographic. Consider each state is functionally a country for a moment, and then consider how samey American entertainment feels overall in recent memory. Germany is about the size of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia while Belgium is dwarfed by any one of those three. Sure, some like Australia, Russia, Brasil, and India are much fairer comparisons in terms of land. However, comparing settlements far apart in those areas are as silly as in America. The geography differences, the local culture differences, the cuisine, laws, the differences in the danger the wildlife poses... Hollywood loves making America look like one huge group of similar people, but even within the states there are various distinct cultures that see each other in wildly different ways. This is why the homogenization of media frustrates me so, as not only does it fail to respect how diverse other countries are, but it fails to expand on how diverse the area its focusing on is too. Some people love seeing how things get different as you expand from your little bubble, so focusing on such a narrow experience is disheartening.
I love these long videos that create discussion and especially your views around various things, love the recent content, keep it up! Glad I subbed a month ago!
I watch both. But I do prefer the subs version because most times some thing is always lost in translation when a show is translated outside of its original language
From the fan perspective, yeah, watch whatever works for you, but there's also the side of how the things get made - people can only watch what gets produced, so the type of translation each audience wants has to be made to suit that audience.
While I hate a lot of the people that voice dubs as long as it sounds half way okay I find it easier to sit down and watch. Like it’s just more enjoyable to it rather than sitting down, watching and reading it. If you like subs that’s a-okay but just don’t hate on others for liking dubs.
@@NatalieXHunter oh no you didn’t, I was just stating my opinion on the matter with the side of someone who watches dubs. My overall idea is that even if you (people in general I just use you when explaining things sorry if that’s what caused the confusion) think subs are better that’s fine, but what I dislike is when people are just overall rude and say stuff like you might as well not watch anime at all rather than watch dubs- and while that seems extreme there are a lot of people that think that way as i have experienced firsthand. You honestly come off as respectful when talking. sorry if I made you think I didn’t think you were so.
I recall that Kaguya in Kaguya Sama said "Weak Sauce!" in the subs, and I was thinking that she probably wont say something like that since her character is kind of dense in trends. Also Im not even sure if that phrase is even a thing Japanese use.
I used to watch subs or dubs interchangeably just based on what sounded better in my ears but now I’m primarily watching subs with only old classic dubs or dubs that are about a decade or older that I can truly enjoy.
I am a fan of the Dub version as I just can enjoy the show more if I don't have to pull my focus from the visuals to read. I don't think I would have taken as much from Re:zero if I watched it in SUB. I am even in favor of some localization to make it work better in the new language. But I like the small things nothing major. An example I like is from my hero academia. To avoid spoilers of any kind during a fight between a villain and a hero. In the sub the villain refers to the Hero several times as Mr. Student. In the Dub the villain calls him "schoolboy" and even puts some stank on his tone when saying it to drive home he is talking down to him. I am not sure I would have gotten that my first time watch if I did that in SUB. I may have even found it odd why he was being so polite to the Hero calling him Mr. I am sure there is a good reason for that and if I understood Japanese culture more I may get it but I just don't. But at the same time I know there are issues with Dubs. I hate in Re:zero that they call her Ms. Emilia. I am not sure if this is a localization issue or if they did a direct translation because It should at least be Lady Emilia I feel.
great video! I'm an academic who sometimes deals with texts in translation, and many of the same questions arise. On one end of the spectrum you've got stuff like Stephen Mitchell's rendition of the Tao Te Ching, which he called a version instead of a translation bc he didn't even know Chinese when he made it. (I went through the original text with a native Chinese speaker, and Mitchell definitely takes some liberties!) On the opposite end, you've got stuff like Benardete's Plato translations, which try so hard to reproduce the Greek as literally as possible that they can be almost unreadable. This raises a hard question about what it really is to be literal. Plato's dialogues didn't sound bizarre & convoluted to his audience, but if we just port all the words and grammar directly into English, that's often how they come out. Arguably, a translator can better convey the thought of the author by using modern artifice to some degree. Dryden's Aeneid is a good example. Virgil's Aeneid doesn't rhyme, but it's a masterfully wrought poem. Maybe it makes sense to add rhyme for a society where that's a common poetic device. A lot of scholars, myself included, tend to prefer the more faithful stuff. Loose translations can be misleading in all kinds of ways. I suppose if reading the Fagles Iliad gets people into Homer, that's great, but you've gotta go to the (much more literal) Lattimore if you want to know what Homer was actually talking about.