DEN 3 into stance is a balance 50/50 in my opinion because it has both pros and cons that does not outweighs the other. Let's start with the pros, First, should they block the DEN 3, you get a 50/50, second, you can delay your 50/50 quite a bit to throw your opponent off if they start to block your 50/50. Third, if they try to use power crush, you can just use SEN 4 to counter them since it is also a power crush. (Important note: you need to delay your SEN 4 slightly so that their power crush comes out first so that you can armor through it and counter them). Now the cons, First, in order to do Lars's 50/50 you need to enter the DEN stance first( this mean that Lars can only do his 50/50 in some situation). Second, you are committed to the 50/50 should your opponent block your DEN 3 since Lars can't cancel SEN stance by side stepping unlike DEN stance. Because of this, the opponent can power crush your mid and rage art your low. (Important note: Pay attention to your opponent health bar because if their health is too low, even if they try to power crush or rage art your 50/50, don't be afraid because it will kill them before their move could hit you). Third, Lars SEN 4, this is a power crush move that hits high so if you just spam this move, a good player can just duck and get a combo punish on you, so use it carefully. And finally, to answer your question about the somewhat reactable SEN 2, not only is it slower than SEN 1 in terms of frame data, it also have a small but significant different visual animation. Let me explain, when Lars does SEN 1, he will instantly do a straight palm strike, but when he does SEN 2, he pull back his hand first and then he do a sweep attack with his hand. This is most likely why SEN 2 doesn't hit you most of the time and being a Tekken God Supreme Lars is also a big factor because of your knowledge on the character. I said that SEN 2 is somewhat reactable because it is a move that is fast enough that in a high pressure game, our body sometime may not be able to react in time even though we saw it coming. In conclusion, people who complain about Lars DEN 3 being OP just need to learn the match up because there is plenty of counter plays to this move. Tekken is a game that you need to know about the character you are going up against because if you don't you will lose badly. If people just lab the characters that they struggle against, they will do just fine.
Well, I really hate that you can’t cancel the stance after den3. Its’ reach is good but what if I don’t wanna do silent entry? His other moves do offer a choice to enter stance or not
Yea his SEN 2 is definitely slow. I duck it all the time. It's easily reactable cause of the sound he makes cues me in to duck it. Lars doesn't have a lot of safe options in stance. I barely go into it because of it.
Nothing that works up to low gold rank is “bad” every single lars main in blue and some gold abuses den 3. Its easy to say its bad because you know alot more since he’s your main. If power crush is suppsed to be the main reason its bad. Well guess what that “weakness” will get the opponent launched with the low. And yes the 17f low is actually reactable at 5Bar, even then its the fastest reactable low in the game. No 16f low in this game is reactable. For reference, devil jins hellsweep is 16f. Everyone knows that move isnt reactable EVEN at offline. So the low is practically unreactable online. So TLDR If you do the mid after den 3, the worst that could happen to you is simply being minus on block. The best thing that could happen is getting a launch from heat dash or a wallsplat to combo If you do the low, the worst thing that could happen is being punished by a non launcher, the best thing that could happen is launching the opponent
If I were to be honest, I rarely use that move unless I try to gap close for a 50/50 or I know when they're trying to side step me. I found it better at wall since you really get a meaty 50/50. Honestly my objective of the game with Lars is to never throw out all my cards in the book and get them when they don't expect it
Nikos, you don't see it coming, you HEAR it coming. I saw a video of a LEGALLY BLIND LARS PLAYER. He says he plays based on sound, and you can hear the SEN 2. He's a RAJIN!. I think how you play with SEN 2 is to mix the low timing and every so often instead of doing a raw f+3(DEN) 3, don't do the SEN 2, but ocassionaly drop into LEN instead of SEN 2 and use LEN 1 or 2 mix from there. You can probably even hang a bit by going to FC and busting out an ocassional CH FC d/f+2 or d+1+2 too. I wouldn't spam all this though - I would space all this out between other moves and setups.
As a Lars player, I want you to Pc the mix up then I can do sen 2 for the ch launch. Once the opponent is looking for sen 2 then we can game. I think the reason people say that sen 2 is reactable is because it's much slower than the mids. The reason this is good for Lars is because he can then delay his mids, which they will then hit cuz people think the delay is for sen 2. Finally if your opponent is gonna respect it then you have the option of going into len. Also den 3 in tekken 7 was much slower, didn't low crush, wasn't homing.
In ranked I usually show SEN2 first to see if they block it, so if they go straight to PC they’re gonna eat a big wall combo. I see your point but I still think the DEN3 mixup is crazy strong for how accessible it is
I have been having this same problem especially when I fight my friends who see my moves all the time. All they do is power crush through a lot of my moves. If I don't condition folks my low gets read allllll the time. Yeah folks who are new get hit but experienced folks almost never get hit by the low itself. I also feel like the frame data on Lars doesn't add up all the time but I'm still new to learning frame data so I'm not as confident in that part but it def feels like somethings that should be able to hit with plus frames don't.
Getting power crushed post den3 messes with my head, but ill revisit the situation and see what else they do. As far as sen2 feeling slow, thats the effect being a lars main. Everything looks slower when you play him. When i fight against lars, he seems so snappy and fast.
The amount of times I’ve been low parried out of the den 3 low is actually crazy. I get better use out of the low after using back 3 into silent entry, feels like it comes out faster.
Have you tried delaying your SEN options? Doing that will throw off your opponent's timing when anticipating a stance mix-up. Also transitioning into his other stances after SEN may help. Lars has so many options to add to the opponent's mental stack in TK8. I doubt they can read every interaction perfectly (even if SEN 2 gets blocked, not much is risked).
I love doing something like DEN 3+4, SEN into LEN 1. It's so satisfying because they respected me and already expected something to happen. I often delay SEN 1 to make them think I'm doing SEN 2 especially during low health since in Purple ranks it's often expected for someone to do a low and it catches a lot of people. I tested it myself in training mode and I was able to block a good amount of the lows if lars just wants to get SEN 1 and 2 out as fast as possible. In a real match I would definitely struggle more since they probably hit me into SEN but that's my own skill issue and good Lars have plenty of other options during SEN than just SEN 1 & 2.
I've been saying this for awhile, but I'll say it again. Use power crush more often. This is a prime example of when to use it. People get mad at things like this, but don't realize they have power crush. The Tekken community as a whole just refuses to use the new tools given to them and properly apply them. Even high level players refuse to use Powe crush in situations where it'd be perfect to use them.
thats because a lot of tekken 8 players are scrubs that just look up 10 moves for their character, don't learn the game mechanics, and generally don't train or study their character.
The funny thing is I'm pretty lars is going to get a change to make its so you can't pc. In this latest patch they fixed several characters Stance pressure that could be interrupted with PC so they could get around to lars soon
difference is with steve, powercrush beat every option of lionheart stance so it was just stupid unless you had godlike execution to take advantage of cancel bug. Powercrush doesn't beat sen 2 so lars is fine.
I think the move forcing Lars into stance is probably to balance the fact that it IS in fact a 50/50 situation. I agree that sen 2 looks mad slow, but it’s apparently active for like 3 frames, though I’m not sure what difference that makes. Maybe it wouldn’t work right if it was less active idk. You can power crush the sen 3+4 though as well right?
To me it sounds like you don’t like the fact that you have to gamble on your offense which is the exact same problem I have with Lars. I’m considering dropping him but yeah you’re right about the low it’s very predictable and all you have to do is watch his knees slide across the ground.
but this is the new systeme on tekken 8 you can use powercrush when you block a +5 or even +8 moves , you can do this same powercrush agaisnt hwoarang during his stance , same with steve fox etc
...Is it possible to contest a powercrush with Lars SE 4? I know I probably sound ignorant, but it's a thought I had. Admittedly, that kind of play is probably the hardest of reads.
@@dmitriichernov5575 yes correct if you delay it. My whole thing is the 50/50 is not that great. But ppl have been making it sound crazier than it actually is. There is counter play to it
@@dmitriichernov5575 It's not the Lars mains but the Lars haters. He is annoying to fight so people are greatly exaggerating his strengths and downplaying his weaknesses. Other people like TTMSwe just ain't labing him enough or fighting enough of him so I feel like some of his takes are sort of just going with the crowd. Could be wrong though.
You can’t say “this move is bad because if someone makes a super hard read I get hit” This is not why people say the move is strong. It’s strong because it destroys defensive options lol
NIKOS, I did some research on what is going on with the DEN 3 into the SEN 2 problem is that I found out some scrubs are learning to fuzzy duck between the DEN 3 to SEN 1, and DEN 3 to SEN 2. I would suggest, to get around fuzzying, use DEN 3 to SEN 3+4, and to also go from DEN to LEN conversion from SEN every so often for another form of delayed timing and yet another 50/50 to consider. I already see you doing this, so I would just keep it up, and go back and forth with using this technique so you don't consistently get waited out and clocked. Also, someone else said delayed timing on the SEN 1 helps too. You may even try to see if an ocassional SEN 1+2 to throw people's timing off works as well. But like you said, I don't like doing raw f+3 DEN 3 into this mixup as an approach anyway cause you tend to whiff or get interrupted too much. There are many other ways to approach outside of raw DEN 3 anyway. You gotta be more uncanny when you use it. L-Train uses it in his personalized juggles, for example, and I use it in my modified Tekken 7 juggles in a similar manner. Will keep in touch with other intel I gather.
as a kazuya player what i learned ab 50/50s is that you HAVE TO EARN your 50 just because ur in the situation doesnt mean youve really earned it. even on wakeup when kazuya's 50/50 is the strongest if i dont do enough to mix up my timing or use other options out of stance besides my 50/50 i will almost always get launched for trying to force them to guess. u have to use the other moves or if u can stance cancel (i dont play lars) then stance cancel a true 50/50 isnt ever actually in your favor hence the term used just part of the option selecting in tekken
also anyone not getting hit by those lows is definitely eating mids a lot bc its completely unreactable ppl are being dishonest also to further explain my example out of CD my only low is the 16 frame sweep the true 50 is in cancelling into ws 2 at 16 frames if i cancel into ff3 its technically reactable bc the animations are so different but thats why i have to cancel into a slash kick to lock them down for not ducking or cancel into a demon paw to lock them down for trying to step or cancel into ws4 to punish fuzzies or just keep wavedashing to confuse them if i never show these options then once i actually have a 50/50 my hellsweep isnt that hard to predict especially since theres a specific window of time the hellsweep will hit in. not only do i have to earn their respect with different CD options i have to throw off the timing to skew the 50 in my favor just running 50/50 if always gonna get u blownup no matter the character
i spam a lot of this moves and i believe they are good enough but should be great have buffs on SEN moves........the only character tha is stopping me in den 3 50/50 i believe is nina because of the power crush heat engager mid and fast, but even the other characters, like victor, azucena, eddy that have power crush heat engagers lose to me on this 50/50s because their power crushs are high and sen 2 saves a lot, also you need to be good on forcing people to crouch this 50/50 to make it happen and take the mid, people also try to react to sen 2 but they dont really know what could happen so they press in to it just to make a break on the knowledge check and pressure on your plus frames .... maybe the right way to use it is only forcing people to crouch the sen 2, to take the mids and also using BACK to return to den to try something different or even punish Nina power crush whiffs.... this move is good but the +5 is not the right buff it needs also feels non sense, but the multiple options to other stances like len, den and also back to neutral can be good ...
hey man when it comes to that low, i personally wouldnt say slow, just more "telegraphed" so ppl can see it coming. But all in all i agree with you ofc as with most things you said. Im playing Tekken 8 with little exp of Tekken 7 but with all the exp from others like SF, MK, SC, GG and yea somethings just dont make too much sense in this game
Be honest vs me ppl rarely do PowerCrash. They're just looking at my moves (blue ranks) Low is slow? As Lars player I'd say - yes. But that's only animation, opponents should know what will you do, all time. That thing about reading, not reaction, I think.
"make them respect you, its my job" thats what you said and thats what made me fujin right now. i usually download them using ff+3,2. if they are dick jabbers. de 2 guaranteed ch. if they power crush or heat engager spammer de 1,2. if they crouch de 3.
DEN 3 Shouldn't Been +5 But Stance Cancellable Because the amount of time I've been Power Crushed Is Insane . SEN 2 Is nice but i feel it's truly for opponents that are sleep at the wheel/ mental stacked. also i've been fuzzied so many times when attempting SEN 2
Idk sounds kinda copium. I havent played lars in a long minute so idk exactly but ninas power crush heat engager is the best in the game by far so probably not the best character to show your point against. And i dont really see the issue here if theyre doing power crush after den 3 just do the low if that gets blocked youre only minus 12. If your point is the move isnt as unstoppable as everyone is saying then sure i guess but its definitely still hella strong regardless
We can beat slow power crushes easy. Like lars 1+2.ninas fast pc we can beat with ours delayed sen 4 pc. Its not imba move but we have options here too
Yea it’s a huge risk using SE 2 because of how telegraphed it is. But it with his stance moves you have to time it. Usually delaying SE 1 gets me hits because most opponents figure if you’re slower you must be using SE 2 but it’s a bait lol.
Not gone lie Niko I’ve been in that situation multiple but my short answer Tekken is just all over the place but I’ve never been a complainer anyways I really don’t care if they buff or nerf like I said at the end of the day harada gone do what they want so ima just play Lars regardless on what they to him at this point i just hope a miracles happen lol
Sen 2 ch lauches everything over 12 frames and crushes everything under (highs), sen 1 beats everything EXEPT powercrush, Sen 3 LAUNCHES everything BUT powercrush and you can delay sen4 and PC through anything the opponent throws at you including pcs. Also after the buff, sen 1 beats rage art so you have no true lose condition from The stance and opponents cant sidestep anymore. You expect the opponet to have no counterplay on block? From a HOMING MID? you expect the opponent to just roll a dice and guess just becouse you managed to put 2 neurons together and pull a den 3 out of your ass? For fuck sake guys yall lars player aint never beating the smoothbrain allegations, and this is coming from some one who really enjoys lars and mains harder characters
I simply think a better change would be to just cancel the stance transition. Btw they're characters that get free stance pressure, and you HAVE to eat the mix-up no matter what. It's just my opinion. Are you capable of disagreeing without ridiculing
Right as usual Nikos. I only use DEN 3 raw for oki against low getup kicks. You should at least be able to reverse SEN as well as reverse DEN. Namco has fukked this game all up catering to scrubs just because of stupid crossplay.
I learned in the first week I played that there were options against DEN 3 into stance. Now, I just use it for oki, and not from manual stance entry. This is why I say Namco catering to scrubs with this heat smash/heat engager/power crush crap caused namco to ruin their own game, the m0r0ns.
