Perfect explanation! Subwoofers also allow the main speakers to be set up where the musically critical midrange, soundstage and imaging are optimized, versus trying to get maximum bass out of them. Then what happens with subs is those deliver the spatial cues information that makes the main speakers sound better than they possibly could on their own. Plus one gets deep bass extension at the listening position.
I’m going on a tangent here but it’s still audio related… The majority of people in the car audio shows don’t know the difference between a woofer and a subwoofer. They force the subwoofer to play midbass frequencies and they make the midranges play the high bass when that’s supposed to be the job of the midbass woofer. Mids are not supposed to play anything under 500hz unless it’s a coaxial. Anything under 60hz is where subwoofers are most efficient.
To me, subwoofers are more to be felt than heard….I have two Toby powered subs under my Stacked Large Advents..love the sound …the subs are running in Stereo and really hit ..and it allows my speakers to run more relaxed..
The question was why, when spending 30 grand on a set of speakers, why do you need subs?? It makes more sense to buy a great set of bookshelves and add subs.
I agree, but I still use 2 x 10 inch high level speaker wire connected subs with my monitor audio towers & set the xover to the towers to 55hz instead of using their full 35hz freq, my modest system sounds lovely even when the vol is cranked up
Exactly right; I have the same situation in my room. aDs 910s that go down to 28htz and the bass is sublime, but I have to turn on the sub for impactful bass, even with dual-10.5" bass drivers in the 910s.
So separate the upper treble/midrange section of the speaker from the lower bass portion and place each portion where it gives the best results in the room at hand. Offer an optional stand for the upper portions for those fanatics opting for this approach.
That’s an interesting explanation. I’ve been struggling with this also. My room is about the size of your demonstration room. If big speakers like that can’t utilize the room, can I getaway with bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer? To me there’s no point in going big if the speakers can’t produce bass in a given room.
You absolutely can do that, and many do to wonderful effect. The point of big towers is to give space for the bass to resonate, since the wavelengths are so long, giving somewhat better bass from the same speakers, but that doesn't fix the "node" issue, where those long wavelengths often create distinct bass buildup and cancellation areas in the room, and is very rarely correct at the listening position. The point of the sub is to augment the speakers, so with smaller bookshelf cabinets, the sub may have to work higher into the frequencies, possibly creating different issues on the bottom end. As Paul often points out, everything is a compromise...
This is why you should never go for size or looks and bling. The room determines the speaker type, if you do acoustic treatment the range of useable speakers goes up a little. If you've got a preamp that can adjust its output to a room characteristic it goes up even more. However, a speaker in a too big/small room and/or without treatment will never play out its potential no matter how sophisticated the preamp tricks are. The money you save by avoiding an oversized speaker can be invested in some nice subs. A sub can be placed independently and frees up the main speaker placement for optimal mids an highs. If you use active subs your amplifiers can also be downsized significantly. Active subs were the real game changer and opened up possibilities for most users that were not possible before.
This is a very controversial subject. You may be over exaggerating the need to use subs. Of course, there’s the additional issue of how deep can the speakers dig and be heard and felt at volume, but still have a decent full range response, which that, in itself, could potentially push you into a situation where sub use is definitely necessary, irrespective of the room. But for some of us that have speakers that dig deep enough, can play clean loudly enough at the listening location, still maintaining a decent full range sound quality, the sub isn’t always a requirement when the setup in the room allows enough bass in the listening position. Also, I guess it depends on how much of a bass head a listener is. I personally don’t like wimpy bass. I’d like to hear and feel it, but there’s a line between enough and too much. I feel the same way about the upper extremes as well.
Something tells me you didn't actually watch the video, or at least too busy thinking up your argument to pay attention to someone who has literally been doing this for half a century. You have to have an exceptionally large room (such as the expo center he was talking about) for bass nodes to have any chance of lining up with the highs and mids at the listening spot if it is all coming from one cabinet. By moving the sub, you can change where the nodes are in the room, and get the perfect listening position with all frequencies fairly flat/neutral, with all the imaging and other ear candy.
@@l0zerth yeah I know all that, and I maintain my position. Paul even said that you don’t always need it, but he made it sound like it’s needed more often than it actually is. You have your opinion and I have mine, Paul has his, and everybody has theirs. Don’t try convincing me otherwise, I’ve been doing this stuff a long time myself. You are actually rude when you posture yourself as a know it all. I say again, it’s a controversial subject, and your opinion is only another.
@@shipsahoy1793 I'm sorry if I came across that way, but I'm not debating preference, which is what it does ultimately come down to. The science says that having the subs fixed in the cabinet with rest of the speakers will almost always cause you to not get every bit of bass, or too much bass, without compromising the rest of the frequencies and soundstage. There is no debating that, and a separate sub enclosure is the simplest and easiest way to address that. The reason it is being presented as more of an end-of-the-story best option is that many audiophiles (which is what this channel and Paul's company are all about) are looking for the most pristine, absolutely perfect reproduction of the recording, including the lowest, flattest bass. In the real world, you basically can't get that without a separate sub, but for a number of people, like yourself, the speakers get close enough, low enough without it, and for those living in apartments or very little space between houses, a separate sub would just be too much to keep any sort of peace with the neighbors. Is a separate sub actually necessary? Once in a while, sure, but it often comes down to how much are you leaving on the table by not having it, vs your environment, space, and budget. You can have an amazing audiophile setup with a pair of small bookshelf speakers and a sub, or a pair of massive towers without the sub, it matters a lot on the room and setup, and you are limiting your setup options without the sub, and if you have any issues with bass after getting everything else decent, a sub may be the only way to fix it. I'm glad you love your system, and I'm sure you get plenty of bass, but most setups would absolutely benefit from adding a sub and setting it up correctly, whether it it is limited by their speakers, electronics, room, or whatever, it is a plus in almost every situation.
What Paul is alluding to is not just how much bass but improving in room feeling of rightness of deep bass, which can wavelengths 50 feet long. If your room is not 50 feet long, you are not letting out it's entire wavelength. Look at an extra subwoofer or two as a bass diffuser, which sounds like it breaks up the standing waves which are too long for your room. Best to have at least one subwoofer behind you, crossfiring at the other woofers sound. It tends to diffuse those long bass wavelengths, and it sounds really different and the bass sounds more immersive. Hard to describe the effect, but you'll like what you hear.
@@l0zerth Lol, yes, I did understand, I do know, and basically agree. I really appreciate you taking your time to get back, which shows intense thoughtfulness. That said, I have a situation currently whereby my lack of pursuing that “ultimate” perfection suits me acceptably fine for my stereo listening, although I am currently using subs for HT usage in another part of an ample size home. I’m not against paying for subs when there’s no other way. Have a great summer! 👨🏻
Hi Paul, According to my Soundcraftsman equalizer information sheet from 1974, showing the frequency range of musical instruments, there is very little if any thing in the 25hz range. What kind of music are you listening to that goes down that far? Thanks
I have a strange bass issue in a 500 sq foot rectangular room with a bar that runs lengthwise in it. I have two stereo systems chained together in the room. They have speakers for each in each of the 4 corners. I have a 2,000 watt pro sound 18" sub in one of the corners that shakes the room pretty good and goes down to 14 Hz +/- 3 dB, but what is odd, is I also have a 12" Sub that is centered along the wall behind where people sit at the bar about 10 feet behind them, and THAT ONE is the one that really shakes the bar. Its specs are nowhere near what the 18" has, but I guess because it is along the wall nearest to where people sit, it can get quite bass'ey and people will sometimes ask me to turn down the bass on that one even though it is much smaller and at best taking 250 watts RMS. I guess the sound waves just pile up in that area.
Noticeably missing from the complete audio spectrum below 25 HZ is the flat surface moving magnet transducer which supplies the response to natural turbulence and the all important percussion present in symphony orchestral streams. Subwoofers or any other angular radiator is simply the wrong shape for effective reproduction all the way to the bottom of the spectrum. I can help.
It kind of begs the question if the right approach would be speakers optimized for mid range together with multiple subs that handle everything below 150Hz. Seems most of the cost of tower speakers is the bass which never really works all that well in real rooms.
@@Error2username Agreed, I'm a big fan of larger drivers. Fair to say you do not need large speakers for upper bass through the highs. The FR30s do not use large speakers on the upper module. My point is why not just an upper module and an array of subs to replace the lower big box.
Exactly, in many rooms (i.e. most) dual properly placed high quality subs will achieve better results, however many manufacturers 'force' one to purchase their speaker model containing far deeper bass than is needed in order for one to obtain their Best Midrange/Tweeters/etc. The one plus side to that is, my towers play flat to 20hz (3 12" per speaker) and therefore regardless of any room that I have placed them in, they have always been able to play low enough and at very high volume with ease. Meaning, until I get them setup in a given room, I don't know 'what' the optimum crossover will be. I've had rooms in which that was 60hz, others that were 80hz, and one in which it was 40 hz. However in all cases my Towers easily handled whatever it was that I was asking of them. Another approach, which works very well and will save one quite a bit of money (as YOU indicated) is to buy their Best sounding speakers which are flat to 80hz (with a slow 3db rolloff thereafter) and then as you suggest invest in 2-4 subwoofers. The 'catch' is often a manufacturer isn't giving you their BEST stuff in their smaller / cheaper designs (Arendal does just that. Monoprice does just that. and Yes, it appears PS Audio is doing just that). Careful to insure that the speaker is truly capable of 60hz at HIGH output (so No, no two way bookshelf will do). Both Arendal and Monoprice give one dual Midrange drivers! As well both offer an option for for even higher output and better sounding Midrange by offering a tower version with additional Woofers and then crossing over the dual Mirange drivers slightly higher (1723 Tower & 460t Tower). Notice that with these two Tower speakers you STILL need 2-4 subwoofers, however if you have a large room or like me love to listen very loud (movies at full tilt) then the slightly higher Midrange crossover point, supported by the extra dual Bass woofers, allows for just that. I would suggest studying the designs of the Arendal 1723 series and Monoprice Monolith THX series to see what I mean. Two companies who have very SMART designs and who expect you to implement multiple Subwoofers and therefore don't force you to waste your money on below 60hz capable speakers and instead ALL of the money has gone into designing the best sounding speaks from 60hz to 20hz. Not that these are the only two manufacturers doing this. Perlisten is yet another manufacturer doing this and is an even higher cost/quality speaker than either the Arendal 1723 or Monoprice Monolith THX, the latter being the cheapest option with the Arendals costing midpoint between the other two. Your budget / income will dictate whether you go with the Monoprice, the Arendal or the Perlisten each which cost approx 2.5 times more than the latter. OK well some food-for-thought that I hope Helps many out there reading this thread.
@@johndaddabbo9383 Interesting read about a path quite different from mine. That's perfect, it offers options to readers. I upgraded from a 1500-euro system to a 4500-euro system. Got a refurbished Denon PMA-QS10 II amplifier and for hearing its potential I tried it in a shop with top-end Raidho speakers costing 15,000 euros a pair. Out of budget obviously but the Raidhos demonstrated what this Denon is capable of. I liked the Raidhos a lot and went for a solution to get close enough. Kef LS50 Meta standmount speakers are very nice in mids and highs but they lack bass. I tried them sitting on top of my Wharfedale Linton speakers, or with Lintons positioned elsewhere acting as surrogate subwoofers, but now bass became too much - the Lintons were not happy with the mighty heavy Denon PMA-QS10 II even in a 4-speaker setup. Replacing the Lintons with two refurbished 1980s Dutch Translator Impact5 tower speakers did the trick. Translator was a speaker builder in the Netherlands much like Bowers & Wilkins is in the UK. The Translator5 model is a four-way speaker, 1 below the top model of their line of the time. Combined with the more modern Kef LS50 Metas, the result is incredible. I added a RME ADI-2 FS DAC, and for 4500 euros total it's a system that's hard to upgrade without breaking the bank. Raidho speakers are still better, but not by much. I also could try it in my room with Wharfedale Elysians. Beautiful speakers, and like the Raidhos that would be an upgrade, but not enough for the price. So ... in my case more isn't always better: upgrading to a bigger Denon amplifier using the Lintons went nowhere. Lintons however are perfect with something more modest. I keep them with a Denon PMA-1060 amplifier, a humble and dependable workhorse. Also, in my situation the 4-speaker main system can do without subwoofers, something I didn't expect when I began experimenting. The 4-speaker stereo setup works very well for both music and movies.
That was what I was thinking! Those FR30's appear to be 6 feet from the wall. Assuming you have a bit of space behind the listening position you must be sitting REALLY close to those big speakers!
If you need a sub for these large speakers in a pretty normal size family room, then having all the extra woofers and radiators seems to be a waste, as opposed to having one of his FR20s or FR10s.
I have tower speakers that have built-in powered sub woofers that will go down to 20hz I also have two SVS Ultra 13subs with the upgraded plate amps with 1,200 watts 5,000 peak and listen without my subs
I'll never understand why people buy high end audio equipment like the PS Audio range and use it in a very ordinary room. If you can afford this expensive equipment you can afford to give it a matching room as far as acoustics are concerned. Two FR30 speaker units placed for optimal performance won't require sub woofers as Paul rightly said ... to be able to do justice to two FR30 units you need a 5 sided room with a pitched roof and modest floor damping . The volume of the room should be in excess of 10,000 cubic feet .
maybe we need to have a revolution in home design, most houses now are acoustical nightmares, i basically hate all my rooms, only one i manage to salvage and can put my speakers in, only place i want to be in also. acoustics should be a metric for all interior spaces, we are not evolved for indoor living.
Darn, you just told me my sub is in the wrong position, unfortunately I don't have a dedicated listening room, just a loungeroom, and things (speakers etc) go where they can go, so it looks like some shuffling is in order. - I did see one odd build, where the sub was build into a couch - mmmm.
i wanted to ask this questions who are really expert on this case , i have ungrounded outlet (old house) this cause my computer and my dac amp also ungrounded is it possible this issue will damage my headphone over time?
Short answer, no, it won't cause any damage in normal circumstances. The ground is a safety valve that connects every piece of metal that is not already an electronic (like the case) back to the breaker, so if a hot wire ever bumps something it shouldn't, it will trip the breaker, instead of making the case (or any other metal part) hot, and shock hazard for anyone who touches it.
@@l0zerth thanks , so that means ground only for safety and doesnt do anything for device protection? i have really old house in my country in fact a lot of house in my country are ungrounded unless they're new big building or rich ppl house ,many people here believe and claims that ungrounded outlet in long term could damage electronics device due to "voltage leak overtime" also i cant find solid answer in internet lot of mixed answer that says true and not true
Why are you positioning your mains where you have a null where you sit? A LOT GOING ON HERE... I agree that a larger room needs more . But..why are you using top shelf audio in a room that needs pro audio implementation?
when people are impressed with 25hz, wait until they hear 15hz. the lower it gets the more impressive it sounds and feels. 15hz to 15khz is the baseline we all should have
Sorry, but no. You can't hear 15hz. You feel 15hz. The human ear can hear frequencies down to around 27hz. The deep bass impact is what you feel below that. Down towards 15hz, that impact rolls off and the pressure wave only creates a resonance that a seismometer can detect. So no need to hit frequencies that you will never hear (or even feel).
@@jayedgar2373You have a good thought. But, what you don’t hear, you’ll feel it. I’m impressed with how ‘inaudible’ bass still adds feel to the music.
@sudd, I don't need a subwoofer for my stereo. Just 2 channels is all I need. BTW, my speakers hit a deep presence around 20hz. You feel it rather hard at times. Not a boom, but a deep solid, very low presents that shakes the house. My power field 18" sub on my hts hits about the same as my stereo speakers @ around 20hz. I have measured it. I have measured 15hz and only a slight vibration through the house was heard or felt. Only a seismic meter will pick that up cleanly. Below 20hz, the resonance starts to roll off. Test you sub with an osiliscop. Very few subs truly hit that low.
It's not the "right" speakers for the "right" music, it's a matter of physics. Bass wavelengths are literally often longer than the room, over 20 ft/7 m and when those waves interact, adding and cancelling each other (called nodes), bass can often end up with actually distinct areas where it will be too loud or quiet, and the only way to fix that if it is not correct at the listening position is to move the sub, which moves those nodes around the room, and you can't do that without affecting everything else if the sub is in the same cabinet as the speakers. Do you always need a sub? No, but you'd be surprised how much the bass (usually) drops off at the listening position, even if the speakers are technically flat at 30, or even 20 Hertz, and if there is a bass problem, a separate sub is often the best, and maybe only way to fix it.
I went to my local dealer & tried a few models on my shortlist in my listening area over a 2 month period before deciding which speakers I liked the most that is how I decided which were the right speakers for me, I wish my company could be in the business of selling to you audiophiles it would be like taking much much candy from the babies, I use monitor audio towers with 2 x 10 active subs with high level speaker cable connection & attenuate the low bass register on the monitor audios they fill my criteria well & for the relatively small cost of my whole system I am very happy
the rule is that you always want a subwoofer or two. when you realize that, then why buy speakers that reproduce anything below 100hz, or 200hz if you have dsp. then its end of this ported, slave, rigmarole.
My thoughts exactly. Look at the FR30. Where is the bulk of the money. Lower box, 4 woofers, 4 radiators and a lot of crossover parts including expensive (big) inductors. You could buy a lot of Rel subs for the price of those bottom boxes.
They are not effektiv tho, just more destortion in the room..., yet i have subbs in my towers + single subbs, next upgrade im not integrating subbs in the towers, towers need their place, but thats rearly where the sub need to be.
Tell that to the people in the car audio shows who don’t know the difference between a woofer and a subwoofer. They make the midranges play the high bass when that’s supposed to be the job of the midbass woofer. Anything under 60hz is where subwoofers are most efficient.
Well what you're describing is comb filtering and his point is if you can adjust the subs to point in different directions you can eliminate reduce comb filteringp. That's what you're doing with the sub at the back of the room. It's more about cancellation from reflections then adding bass
It also helps with that, but the bigger issue is that low frequency (especially sub bass) wavelengths can literally be longer than your room, over 20 feet/7 meters. This means that as waves interact, bass will actually have very distinct areas in a room where they cancel or add (called nodes), and by moving the sub, you are also moving the nodes around the room, allowing you a much easier and controlled way to get a balanced bass response at the listening area without affecting the rest of the frequencies or affecting the soundstage. Because of the cancellation effect, it may actually be impossible to have any real bass at the listening position without moving things, no matter how much power you have. Combing is actually when the signals reach your ears at separate times, whether there were more than one mic at different distances, not equally between the speakers, etc, or even an intentional micro delay for effect.
If you need a subwoofer to augment you sound with your own speakers. Then why don’t you make them yourself instead of relying on other manufacturers to get your speakers to sound good?
Bass needs dispersed because of the room. Is that so hard to accept. Don't rationalize that you don't need a subwoofer. Try one and if you still think that you don't need it; return it. Simple as that. Sonex (sparingly) and bass traps in the corners help substantially. Lets face it; you need perfect sound. Don't sell yourself short.
Yeah I had purchased some towers recently and thought great, I shouldn't need subs with this system. After a couple weeks I was happy with the sound but hooked up one of my subs just to try it out. It definitely improved everything about the sound and the presentation...and now I can't pull the sub back out, cause I know what I would be missing. Majority of the time a well integrated subwoofer will improve the listening experience
Whats very interesting is that years ago I had a digital time delay system, where you used the two main speakers at full volume and 3 rear speakers at a very low volume, which received the fraction of a second delayed signal, to simulate the longer arrival/reflection times of a big space. The speakers I was using at low volume in the back were Minimus 7 speakers with a 4 inch woofer and not much bass at all, especially played at that low a volume. The bass in the room sounded so different and right, like the whole long wavelengths were being let out. To me this means that bass being crossfired from different locations in the room accounts for the majority of the improvement, not just that there is more bass from another woofer putting out bass into the room.
Why even put woofers into speakers then and make all these claims about how low they go? The contradiction and problematic pathways this leads one down is unbelievable. Those who think that woofers inside speakers that have been perfectly crossed over etc are easily bettered by lower priced hardware subwoofers from other brands must ask the question: why is there a woofer in the extremely expensive speaker if it's easily improved upon by adding in a cheaper 3rd party sub? Why design 3 way stereo floorstanders? Why not just 2 x mid/treble and 2 x separate (Sub) woofer's that all interconnect and where the woofers can be located away from the main speaker? If people had the opportunity to hear very high end speakers in real rooms they'd know subwoofers are really not required at all in the vast majority of circumstances. We are a Kef specialist and we've sold a few pairs of the Kef blade 1 (original) speakers . No subwoofer ever needed. The 4 way Kef Muon has the most incredible earth moving tones we've ever heard built into a complex ICE design. Engineering of high end stereo floorstanders is a complex thing - those who like extreme bass for certain types of very modern music may be an exception but for all other music your very high end floorstanders costing in excess of 20k typically can deliver, in most rooms, all the bass anyone would ever need. Of course people reference the cliche of French organ music where some extreme low frequencies go down to 20hz or below. Yes that exists but it's an extreme niche. Then people claim Volume is an issue - is it though, really? With a 30k speaker it shouldn't be. Finally it's old chestnut called 'the room' and mostly this is offered up as a mostly science free or evidence free excuse to throw some woofers in. Yes rooms need very, very careful attention but simply saying 'the room' without showing ones workings is like saying 'the cable' made it better again it's possible but where are your workings? Everything that's done in the name of hifi should be done with 1: workings 2: stated engineering facts and specifications 3: A-B listening. Otherwise statements made about improvements are simply opinions.
@@mykhailoskachkov5946 how so? The smaller rooms have terrible bass issues (bass nulls, peaks). With a measuring mic and Rew you can see the room mode issues. I also used the REW room simulator to see how a virtual subwoofer affected my response and low and behold there is one spot in the middle of the room that fixes my issues. Sure enough putting a real sub right where the simulator showed fixed it for me.
@@MrDingaling007 the fact that wave length is large doesn't mean you don't hear the sound. So it is incorrect to say that there is no sense to have sub in small room.
