Literally was coming into the comments for this. It seems if they have trash HP star eviolite isn’t much help. If Ursaring chose to be defensive maybe that would work tho
No, not really. Hp is important but not the key point of why they failed. Was *a* reason for about all of them, was *never* the *main* issue except girafarig which it’s ability & nerf to speed was also key. It’s about what you lose to stay as a the pre-evo. Abilities, moveset. Bonus typing, what item the fully evolved form can hold, & bonus stats in other areas not just hp. Like ursaring. Removing flame orb to have eviolite makes it way way worse in singles, and for doubles you have to waste a turn on your other moon to status ursa. And like the video says. You lose STAB ground bonus. (And also knock off ruining the entire mons purpose)
@@sewerdork6183 Also, alot of these mons also lose out on some pretty good abilities such as Duraladon, Bisharp, Girafarig, Dipplin and White stripe Baculin, and those abilities are the biggest benefits they have.
@@fsgdevil7959 Okay but that's even more notable because Archaludon is definitely better than Annihilape, and maybe even Kingambit in VGC. The closest thing to a new evolution with more usage than it is Bloodmoon.
according pikalytics Arch only has 7% pickrate. Meanwhile Bloodmoon has 13% and Firagiraf whopping 16% being 12th most picked pokemon in current vgc format. Annihilape has under 3% pickrate.
Its in UU but its extremely reliant on tera to function due to its godawful typing. It doesnt matter that Sandy Shocks is an excellent switchin when it can tera ice and obliterate it. Doesnt matter that it x4 resists water cuz they can all pull out ice spinners/ice beams for it. Yes it has amazing stats, moveset and ability... its just a case where its typing holds it back soooo bad... But after you tera youre golden, nasty plot hydrapple is scary.
@@varsik289 no, this is not even true. Smogon has a larger player base because: 1. It has existed longer than VGC 2. You don’t need to spend a lot of time breeding and building competitive pokemon since ev spreads are a lot more complex and ivs can’t always be maxed Also switch singles is vastly different from smogon so why are you you bringing it up that it is the same
Eviolite Dipplin was what saved me from my friend's Zekrom in a random battle. it was at +1 from Dragon Dance and clicked Outrage, and the little apple took barely over 70% when i was expecting it to just fall over and die instantly. i was ragging on it since i got it also in our previous battle and it was very very bad, but since then i have gained a lot of respect for it
Eviolite Pokémon tend to be better in randoms cause since they aren’t fully evolved they are at higher levels too! Quilfish, Dipllin, dunsparce and Ursaring can all be good!
@@ultimatewinfestation7194 no it wasn't. There is almost zero reason to run anger point over defiant, but the option of ager point being there would've been cool
Crazy? I don't think it's good considering the other ability is defiant, so it's better then immune to intimidate, but there are other moves that flinch besides fake out lol.
@@petrie911 Mostly just like, Prankster Murkrow and Sneasel. At least historically it was more like Gen 1 ubers than modern ubers. Basically the same as the lower tier, plus the big centralizing things kicked out, rather than being a radically different tier. No idea how it's been for Gen 9 though.
we really need LC ubers. these NFE are often trash in ZU or PU and we have many of it already. if they added ubers UU, i don't see why we don't have a tier for the best of the best babies around
You explain well the evolutions but don’t really provide solid explanations as to why eviolite does not work on any of these Pokémon…I think you’re missing the whole point of the video here
All of the points are basically focused on "the benefits these evolutions provide are overall better than a 1.5x defense boost," with a couple of the points also including how the mon would want to use an item for a strategy that it just can't have if it runs Eviolite. You most likely already know what Eviolite does, so... _that's_ the point of the video.
Looking back at the video, I do agree that I could have gone in a little more depth. I plan on making a follow up to this video that analyzes the best eviolite users, which will be more in depth. Thanks for the feedback!
If this is about gen 9 OU then yes none of these have been well utilised in OU, but they were under utilised before their evolutions anyways and eviolite is not a big enough bump to use them in OU, never mind to use them over their counterpart. Electroshot is a very large reason why Archaludon was just banned, since it makes it a very threatening rain abuser. In their respective tiers however, H-Quilfish sees more usage than Overquil at least as a defensive spike setter, as for a few other Pokemon who very much use eviolite in their own tiers or have even rose a tier because of eviolite. If this is talking about VGC, then eviolite mons are quite hard to argue in VGC as most NFE Pokemon struggle with damage as well as survivability thus eviolite doesn’t solve the issue of not doing much on the board, this is why eviolite is only really used on defensive supports such as murkrow or clefairy. Interesting, in a Japanese tournament (I don’t remember if it was a local or not) a player did in fact run eviolite stantler for support so, although limited, eviolite stantler has been used and I believe used more than Wydeer
@@eeveewithcoffee9554 As someone who has climbed to the top spot of OU with things like AV Goodra, Choice Specs Jolteon and even Choice Band Flareon- people generally don't bother with things that aren't meta or at least meta-adjacent. Running Doom Desire on a Jirachi offensive support? People look at you like you're insane despite the fact that it would one-shot Mega Tyranitar and leave craters in whatever didn't resist it. Shadow Sneak on Mega Gardevoir? Sounds stupid until you win the game because their Focus Sash revenge killer finds themselves outsped by a 0 Speed investment Hyper Voice machine. And that's OU picks, they freak out even harder and act even more smug if you dare use anything from UU, nevermind RU like Goodra was.
@@a_rat_named_mousetrue but the vgc mega is generally much smaller (as in the range of power is larger, forcing you to save teamslots for specific threats). Therefore it'd be a lot easier to branch off in ou than vgc Also what does choice band flareon do that nothing else can do 😭😭
Eviolite Stantler is definitely worth using. Stantler has the unique combo of skill swap + indimidate, which, in doubles, can allow you to activate your own competetive mons ability and Adrenaline orb, while also removing an opponents ability. You could also swap the ability into your own Regigigas to get slow start off of it, while also making intimidate activate twice. Intimidate can also compound with eviolite to make stantler able to take even more physical damage. Ursarang, with eviolite and guts activation support, could also be quite strong as a facade user. It also gets helping hand, yawn, and taunt, which all have good utility in doubles. Dunsparce can also agility up and spam serene grace rock slides much more safely with eviolite. Eviolite strengthens use cases for several of these mons. There's nothing fundamentally keeping them from making good use of eviolite, contrary to what the video's title suggests.
I'd argue hisuian qwilfish doesn't belong in this list because holding eviolite it is often considered better than it's evo, despite both being trash So it's not really unsuccessful as an eviolite mon, it's unsuccessful in general
My favourite eviolite Pokemon is galarian Corsola , it can destroy a lot of mons in nat dex OU. Ofc Knock off is a great counter but still the will-o-wisp , strength sap , calm mind , Hex set is just great...
a lot of people were running eviolite stantler since it gets tricky room imprison and STAB tera blast, it can even skill swap intimidate to give a defiant/competitive boost to an ally
I agree with everything in the video EXCEPT for not sayin Archaludon is one of the strongest mons of this bunch; this thing got banned from OU for being broken in rain!
@@x_bell1142that's the problem, more mons are viable in singles due to different tiers then VGC. Like seriously dude most people would figure this out
I used Dipplin pre-Hydrapple, and man its stupidly bulky. Max SpDef and minimal HP investment lets it survive a Specs max SpAt Moonblast from Flutter Mane, and anything other than Chien Pao bounced off it with ease. My only complaint is that it doesnt have the tools to be super effective in Doubles, especially Rage Powder or Follow Me, because whatever my team couldnt take my Dipplin could quite well. Really thats its only problem, and Hydrapple would definitely benefit from redirection as well
@@chrisrozier3123 Being able to consistently land near-100% accurate Hypnosis would probably be pretty scary, but on its own Dipplin only really cares about Syrup Bomb and Draco Meteor
Electro IS a stab move…kinda +1 attack non-stab move is the same as just a stab move since both are 50% boost And since e shot always boost before it attacks it’s effectively a 3rd stab that also makes all your other moves stronger
The main issue is that Eviolite doesn't give a significant enough boost that isn't outshined by the increased bulk of its users' evolutions. Only a handful of Pokemon have made use of the item with the only notable user being Chansey in gen 5 and 6 after which the item was never seen in OU again outside of meme teams. Incidentally about Archulodon Electro Shot was actually one of the reasons it got banned ultimately. Cause paired with Pelipper's Drizzle this allowed it to be a tank and a wall breaker and a phaser all at the same time because it was boosting SpAtk every turn in Rain or throwing would be "checks" back into their Pokeball with Dragon Tail. It was such an obnoxious Pokemon. Loved using it.
I think it's best explained by Magneton and Magnezone. Losing speed and gaining damage bulk is more valuable than keeping speed and having situational bulk. Magneton does not have the utility to take advantage of the bulk. It's a purely offensive Mon that would better take advantage of Scarf than faux-bulk.
I've been trying Eviolite Magneton on Pokemon Showdown recently, and I've decided to switch him out for this reason haha Another member of my team, however, has made GREAT use of Eviolite: Slowbro!
I feel like Duraludon has more potential than the rest on here since Archaludon doesn't have much better stats anyway. It is basically forced to use the assault vest anyway because of the low SpD which locks it out of status moves, Archaludon will have lower defence until stamina activates (which may already be too late) and Stalwart is already an excellent ability in doubles battles.
Strangely enough, Stantler actually got top 8 at Japanese nationals last year. Though it was a best of one closed team sheet format (a different ruleset from the rest of the vgc circuit), it still had a niche with eviolite. Pretty cool
the premise of this video doesn't make sense btw. this isnt about why these eviolite mons aren't viable, instead it is just a comparison between an eviolite mon and its evolution. for example, the reason primeape isn't used in the meta has nothing to do with annihilape being good, even if annihilape was worse than primeape, nobody would use eviolite primeape because it is a bad mon.
In VGC Draft, Ursaring wasn't a regular for my team, but they came often enough and were a menace when brought! They were in the running for best B-Tier of the season (a spot they had to compete for with another of my Pokémon, which no doubt hurt their stats)
I think the thing with eviolite users is that, while they can be great in singles, in doubles they need somthing else to shine than being hella bulky. Clefairy is good for vgc because of follow me, dusclops due to being a trick room setter and i don't know if chansey is (or was at any point) relevant in vgc, but if I have to guess, i would say she would be a cleric with wish and heal pulse.
Depends on where they are used, 6v6 singles has too many spikes and knock for eviolite to be consistent. If there is a spike immune one we can talk. Eviolite can be good in VGC though but that usually depends on what you are trying to survive with an eviolite, as shown with the success of Dusclops and Porygon2. I would imagine eviolite bisharp/duraludon would be excellent in gen 8 VGC if they existed back then.
I just dont think a defensive only buff would ever be good in doubles. Some of these guys are quite good in singles and especially in draft. Primeape is very good low tier and a strong tera captain in draft. Diplin is also very good. Bisharp will always be a threat in any format even withput the eviolite.
They could always give bisharp knock off and have it lose it when it evolves into kingambit getting replaced by kowtwo cleave. Also wyrdeer was a lost opportunity to be the opposite of farigiraf, shouldve keept the speed it used to have and have super highe special attack considering it looks like an old wizard. At the very least they shouldve gave it fur coat, it makes sense on it.
I think a ton of it has to do with the fact that VGC is a much more offensive meta compared to singles where many of these pokemon have solid roles, even if many are only able to successfully fulfill these roles in lower tiers. The VGC metagame being so much faster and the ability to attack the same pokemon twice within the same turn makes defensive utility from Eviolite generally much less viable than it is in the much slower and bulky singles metagames across the several tiers
I really like using Dipplin online. I play singles, and I play it mixed defense with sticky hold to avoid knock off, and I use infestation, syrup bomb and recover to stall, with tera steel. I really like the lil guy :)
On the Basculin segment, you forgot to mention that _Pokémon Legends: Arceus_ introduced the White-Striped Basculin, which is the only variant that evolves at all, let alone into Basculegion. Red-Striped Basculin and Blue-Striped Basculin were both introduced in _Black/White._
Yea but I'm tired of mons like honchkrow being mid because they can't decided if they are a phsyciL attacker or special attacker. Aroboliva is a good amount of Min-Max is S/V
This is a VGC focused list, so gaining the stamina ability is more of a factor than electro shot. I do agree that electro shot in singles is really valuable though
I find that most of your point end up being: well it’s evolution is better. Wich is pretty obvious, but I was hoping for more. Like for bisharp you explain that it preferred to use a different item.
I would say the benchmark for a good eviolite pokemon is if it's banned from NFE. Of the 10 mons being discussed, 7 of them are considered to be too strong for NFE. They may not be OU, but they've beaten the expectations of a middle stage
Despite Stamina being nuts on Arch, I'm still kinda surprised Stalwart Eviolite Dura never made a breakthrough. In all honesty, I could see that being a contender in a future generation should the right meta align. It's not impossible to imagine a VGC where you really want to ignore Amoongus or Follow Me users, and at the same time you just want upfront bulk. Not saying it will happen, but I could see it as a potential some day/year.
i feel like the title is kind of misleading. it suggests that these pokemon are not good at using eviolite- unlike pokemon such as chansey or electabuzz. that's very much untrue, eviolite is one of the best items you could be using for many of these pokemon. it's just that even with eviolite, they're not going to be better than their evolution. unless a pokemon's evolution is bad like magmortar or electivire are or are strictly a tank like blissey, that's just how it is. unevolved pokemon with eviolite are never supposed to be better or as good as their evolutions, but in formats where their evolutions aren't allowed(such as in smogon's multiple tiers) they are often viable. very frail pokemon like basculin obviously would never consider using eviolite, but for more defensive pokemon like qwilfish it's a must have.
I definitely agree that the pre evolved forms aren't supposed to be better than the final evolution. This video was meant to show how none of these 10 pre evolutions are exceptions to that idea, and how disappointing these mons turned out to be as eviolite users in VGC formats, not really in singles
@@x_bell1142 yeah, but it's still misleading if you ask me. besides the duraludon and dipplin segments, it isn't really mentioned that eviolite is good for these pokemon if you're going to be using them. "unsuccessful eviolite users" gives one the impression that these pokemon aren't good at using eviolite. that isn't really the case, it's that they're either outclassed by their evolutions or don't bring enough to the table even if they're shockingly bulky to be actually good. i brought up smogon tiers not specifically because of some of these pokemon being good eviolite users in singles, but rather that when the better pokemon here aren't being outclassed by their evolutions they can be quite strong with eviolite. there are actually doubles tiers in smogon, although the banned mons and the usage stats are very confusing to me. annihilape is banned yet terrakion isn't, and wo-chien somehow has more usage than ting-lu
To summarize: 1. Most receive a substantial boost to HP, 2. Alongside some boost to one or both of "Defense/Special Defense". Which makes Eviolite's increasing the Defense and Special Defense not have as much impact as just evolving. And when it's not this, 3. The Pokemon is largely viable because of an ability or item, which it can't hold/benefit from if it holds Eviolite instead.
The only one of them that get reliable recovery are primeape with drain punch but that’s niche and I think dunsparce gets roost. In short it doesn’t matter if you can take a couple more hits if your capability to do so is limited by no recovery and the inability to hold leftovers
The apple also gets good recovery in recover and kinda of Giga drain but I think it kinda suffers from not being able to do too much with its massive defense It basically only has dragon tail to support its team and doesn’t have any good boosting moves stopping it from slowly snowballing, and dragon/grass isn’t too hot of stab options coming of 95 Sp Atk making throwing off attacks not the most effective thing in the world.
@@rossthemoss6827 yeah but hydrapple has regenerator plus everything that dipplin has so it’s just better off recovery wise because it can come in at full health take a resisted hit switch out then come back it at full again
Interesting, I suspected that eviolite would not provide enough bulk for the pre-evolutions. I had not considered that the pre-evolved Pokémon had abilities that needed specific held items.
pretty shallow video, didnt mention how girafirig actually got banned from lc becuz the eviolite set was too good, driplin having sticky hold makes eviolite sets surprisingly potent, rage fist primape actually got banned in lower tiers, and qwlfish actually sees more usage than its evo in its tier becuz the eviolite set is just better
This is a VGC focused video, so it wouldn't make sense to talk about bans from little cup. I apologize if it wasn't clear that VGC was the focus for the criteria of their success, as that is the format I primarily follow.
I thought tera blast can be physical/special. Took me a while that tera blast is only special then physical when tera. Bulk up ursuraing would of been wild.
The thing is eviolite is good for this 2 things: * Defensive pokemon (kind of obvious really) as they benefit from more defense. It is only good though if the defensive boost makes the pokemon considerably bulkier than it's evolution (chansey and dusclops for example). Shuckle is an example of a pokemon that cannot receive an evolution because it will just be pretty much unkillable if you don't have the means to knock the item off, or create an evolution that is so stupid bulky you might as well give it a handicap ability like truant (which won't stop shuckle from being ridiculously bulky). * The pokemon has a potential to fill a defensive niche that it's evolution just cannot because of stats. The prime (and maybe only) example of this would be porygon2, as porygon2 is already a pretty defensive pokemon, meanwhile porygon-z is fully offensive. An example of the opposite enters in roselia, which has (or had) amazing supporting movepool in aromatherapy, toxic, leech seed, sleep powder, etc., and a great defensive ability in natural cure; but roselia is just too frail physically, and it's hp is not high enough to work with it's decent special defense even with eviolite. Cases were eviolite is just bad no matter what: * Offensive pokemon, exactly why scyther does not run eviolite despite having the same BST as scizor: it is an offensive mon that would much rather run choice band/scarf, life orb, or even HDB to deal with stealth rocks. Bisharp, primeape and ursaring being fully offensive mons would never benefit from eviolite. This is a case to illustrate how bulky eviolite shuckle would be (because bored): Modest Palkia with Hydro Pump has a change to OHKO a 252 HP shuckle with no SpDef investment and no "eviolite" boost. 252+ SpA Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle: 210-248 (86 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO The same Palkia now is doing ~33% less damage to the same shuckle with the "eviolite" boost. 252+ SpA Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Shuckle: 140-168 (57.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO There is barely any difference really (dead in 2 hydro pumps). Except this shuckle can have contrary and the moves shell smash (with contrary it would now reduce it's attacks and speed and increase it's defenses) + rest. After just one shell smash shuckle would survive 3 hydro pumps from a fully invested modest palkia: 252+ SpA Palkia Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Shuckle: 96-114 (39.3 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Funnily enough a choice specs fixes this all even with a contrary shell smash up (back to just 2 hits): 252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Shuckle: 126-150 (51.6 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO This is of course a ridiculous scenario as shuckle clearly has full disadvantage. But despite that can tank 2 to 3 super-effective STAB hits from a pokemon with 150 base SpAtk and 252 investment, and modest nature. While the shuckle has little to no investment in SpDef but the eviolite.
Eh, id like to say that bisharp eviolite works well enough. It makes it so that even though it's a little weaker, its still faster than a few things allowing it to outspeed without playing the sucker punch mindgames. It also makes it bulkier on the special defence side, which can matter in certain cases. Is it better than gambit? No, but it does have it's place.
More then a year later, and people STILL think eviolite bisharp is a thing It’s less bulky, weaker, and it’s not faster enough to matter Play the damn game before talking
@@GravityIsFalling and there are some instances where the speed does matter. Put a low hp tortera in front of a gambit, and you play sucker punch games. Put it in front of bisharp, and there's no need for the risk (overgeneralization, but you get the point)
@@GravityIsFalling compared to the powercreep? No, there are a lot of mons that were good, but dropped low because of it. (Look at garchomp) but even so it still can be used in higher tiers. Had some success in UU and OU (not much cause I'm kinda bad, but still). It's In no way better than gambit, but it still can hold its weight if you know how ro play with it. Just like a lot of others.
I often use primeape and bisharp in OU. Not in SV cuz kinggambit is legal, unlike natdex. Primeape is just gambling. But it’s low HP don mean shite w/ bulk up drainpunch, rage fist ain banned. Can still abuse revival blessing keeping the rage fist count. 4th move could be pursuit or stone edge blunder policy. Bisharp could easily just dump all into bulk. Amazing typing, let’s u click SD more cuz u have less reason to spam sucker w/ no supreme overlord. Feeds off rilla surge, and wish
Imagine they introduce an Eviolite for offense. Like a repurposed Light Ball: *Light Ball:* _An item to be held by a Pokémon. This mysterious evolutionary orb boosts the Attack and Sp. Atk stats when held by a Pokémon that can still evolve. The boost is stronger when held by Pichu or Pikachu._ In detail: +25% Attack and Sp. Atk when held by not fully evolved Pokémon. +100% instead if it is Pichu or Pikachu. Now, I wonder which Pokémon would suit well for such item.
The main draw for eviolite is for low tier play or draft leagues where an eviolite user can play nearly identical to its evolved form and come at a much cheaper price Rhydon is one I suggest to a friend for their Draft team and it’s been one of their best Pokemon
I was surprised to hear Duraludon is a bad Eviolite user. I fully expected it to be a really good one. I can see why it's flawed now tho. (Also, throughout Teal Mask, I gave my Dipplin an Eviolite, simply cause I knew it would be able to evolve but it couldn't yet, and it worked REALLY well for me. Granted, that was just in single-player, but still)
I remember using hisuian qwilfish against some friends and investing fully in hp def and spdef and just being a worse pory 2 and they f- ing hated me after, at least it can be used for some. Fun
Are there any currently viable eviolite users? At least in doubles I feel like dusclops and Poryigon 2 have fallen victim to power creep this generation.
"bisharp mostly uses a Focus Sash" Im ngl at which format u are looking at but bisharp has been pretty good in uu early on this gen and its v consistent in RU as well since August, and mostly due to evio, idk what u mean when u say it isnt succesful
Bro honestly doesn't know how powerful archalidon. Teraing exists for a reason. Works well with 2 of the best mons in ubers miridon and Kyogre or it can just use power herb
This is a VGC focused list and I apologize if I didn't mention that as that does affect the criteria for success a lot. You are certainly correct that Archaludon is strong in singles though
I think Ursaring and Primeape could work out of the bunch. I play doubles, so a little teammate will-o-wisp for Ursaring and a ghost tera on primeape I think could do wonders. Primeape still has defiant, learns rage fist, and is faster than, its evolved form, so I think with a solid ev spread and a good teammate it could work. Heck, Mausehold beat up pre-tera while also being eviolite boosted, and friend guarded means primeape takes next to nothing while gaining a base 200 rage fist.
I know it's not the same, but first form pokemon getting evolutions across generations makes them get listed competitively as not fully evolved and more importantly, makes them eligible for Little Cup from now on. Dunsparce was no different and it was such a powerful tank in that format with eviolite that iit got banned for dominating that meta with its pure bulk.
Crazy to make a video and say "it's missing it's signature move Electro shot but it's not a big factor since it doesn't have STAB" a few days after Archaludon being banned from OU because of how broken Electro shot is
This is a VGC doubles focused list, so electro shot is not nearly as big of a factor for Archaludon's success compared to its stamina ability. It is very strong in singles, so I apologize that I didn't make it clear that this was doubles focused.
As a casual player who isn't very interested in VGC, I think of the Eviolite mostly as a crutch item for some of your Pokémon to get them by until they're fully evolved.
man when I first saw Duraludon was getting an evolution, I was TERRIFIED of the possibility of an Eviolite Duarludon going on a sturdy tear in OU boy was I wrong when I discovered Archaludon had Stamina
