I think 6v6 is defo worth exploring but we need to stop huffing the copium that was the complete fluke of a patch in October 2020. That shit happened despite team 4s balance decisions, not because of it
@@huuREGit was a great patch after a history of terrible ones. Then they patched it damn near immediately and basically spat on the face of all the players.
When they added hero limits, no limits was made into an arcade mode. When they added role queue, open queue was made a full time time alternative gamemode. It astonishes me that they dont even try a 6v6 arcade mode.
i remember a friend of mine explained to me how overwatch 1 characters were designed with specialisations and things they could and couldn't do, tracer had good movement but low HP, bastion had high damage but couldn't move while turreting, Tanks were strong but they relied on eachother as they couldn't do everything at once so there was always counterplay. Now that more and more characters don't have inherent weaknesses and offtanks are having all of their counter-able abilities buffed, you don't play around the characters design, you play around their cooldowns instead and it becomes a slog because you're not duelling a character anymore you're pushing your buttons after they pushed theirs 5 v 5 is hurting the fun of the game by turning into more of a moba than an FPS
Tbh at this point that's disrespectful to mobas. At least in those it takes skill to execute and get a meaningful exchange. In overwatch you could just swap characters and you new have a clear advantage without anymore thought.
The mistake they made was adding heroes with stacking abilities. Orisa and then Sigma both had TWO defensive/mitigation abilities that they could cycle to live forever. Moira, Brig, Bap (even Ana to an extent) have TWO healing abilities that can stack. The OG cast before them only had one. Mercy can heal OR dmg boost, no stacking 2 heals. Lucio could heal OR speed, no stacking. Zen could heal and discord, but his heal is so small and inconsequential compared to his DPS. No stacking 2 heals. Ana is more balanced however because she has no mobility, so her grenade is her lifeline when she gets dove. This isn't the case with Brig or Moira, Brig can whipshot the diver and shield bash away. Moira just fades away. But Ana is dead in the water if she used her abilities in the midfight and then gets dove. That's balance. Moira was the start to the downfall, the trickle of water spilling out of cracks in the dam. With stacking 2 healing abilities. Then Brig blasted the dam wall wide open with her stacking 2 OP heal abilities, and being a tank as a support. And the other new heroes just made it worse. LW is a perfect 6 v 6 hero imo, he has his primary heal. They didn't add heal to grip until after they buffed him because he was dogwater (in 5 v 5). Kiri is just stupid broken, swift step and suzu are a broken combo to stack. But honestly suzu is much better in the recent patch now. That's why Ram and JQ feel great and balanced. Ram has a shield, but can't block in that form. 1 Defense. When he shifts form, he can block but can't use shield.. THEY CAN'T STACK. JQ has shout, that's it. She self heals but that's for herself and she can still get burst through it, so stacking those 2 isn't OP at all.
I agree with everything here except i think you have it flipped. I reckon OW2 plays more like cod (FPS) which is sad because the Moba elements of tank synergy in ow1 is what made me fall in love with the game.
This is the same design flaw they implement in Warcraft pvp. Every class needs to be able to do everything on its own, so class identity is lost and every meta is about playing around the most powerful CDs of the most recent patch
That would make the bleeding worse not better. "Hey tanks have a fundamental issue, let's put 2 of them in the game to make the issue 2 times as worse"
@@georgealvarez1195 bro, if we had two tanks we could nerf their health down and defensiveness down and just have them comperable to overwatch 1 tanks again when they werent raid bosses.
@@georgealvarez1195If you have 2 of them you can nerf both becouse they cover another . The problem is that every tank has to be a super tank in 5v5 to even exist so tanks like Orisa Mauga Roadhog that shit on every other tank if they get buffed become meta over and over
Also, bliz refuses to nerf or rework the immortality heroes, bap and kiri. So many balance changes can be averted by addressing the healing creep and the obvious missing tank. Ps. Dps doom would have kept the immortality characters in check. Healer mains got roadhog reworked, and dps doom was made a tank for a reason....... hmmmmmm.
Roadhog was reworked because in 5v5 one shots aren't healthy. But then again 5v5 isn't healthy either. And doom was made into a tank because he was too strong against most supports (But he needed to be that strong because of the immortality, brig and goats bs.). But I agree that I liked dps doom better than tank doom.
@@MrBreakdownxSo he’s less fun and still as oppressive? I speak for most hog players when I say that off meta Roadhog in OW1 was the most fun version of Hog. But now he can’t be off meta in OW2 or he would never be played
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 agreed hog is one of the reasons I first got into overwatch. Landing hooks is a lot of fun, but they clearly don't know what direction they should take a lot of the characters. I really do think it's time for blizzard to hire a separate team for balance.
@@sanban6766if they put 6v6 back it won't be the same. We have years of patches, new characters, new maps, all built for 5v5. It would take probably double that time to fix all the damage they did. Damage to both the core gameplay and all the little interactions that made the game so fun
As an Ex-OW (Quit after season 1 of OW2) Rein Zarya was THEY most fun I’ve ever had in this game. I still have clips of me dropping 60+ kills in overtime matches on kings row. Nothing OW2 does will ever top that
Tank is where the creativity of this game came from. DPS & support pairing can be somewhat creative but for the most part it doesn’t fundamentally change the gameplay. Wild tank pairings is what made all the other roles more fun because it enabled the game to be vastly different. That’s another aspect of 5v5 that’s just boring
Good video, I'm kinda sad that i didnt play OW1 that much because man playing 2 Tanks is so much more fun. I've played some OpenQ recently and playing DVA as an Off tank with your Reinhardt was one of the most fun experiences ive ever had playing Overwatch and now i'm even more pissed at Blizzard that they refuse to go back to the 6v6-format. Its just more fun for every role, its that simple
Yeah, you haven’t even seen the half of it. Getting an actually competetive (similar skill levels on both sides, and people know what they are doing) it gets very deep. The tank trades can go anywhere, you can actually disengage and reengage, and could hold space better with two tanks. The rotations we made with rein zar sym, or dive, or even sig ball were crazy. It is literally a different world of fun (to me)
@@pphaver871 i can only imagine how deep 6v6 was. It clearly had more depth and a higher ceiling because it was just more to do and i think thats what made Overwatch to Overwatch. 5v5 is just a watered down, more simple and more deathmatchy game. It sucks
Doom has lost so many techs to the point that I believe now Ball is now the highest skill ceiling character in the game. Go check out GetQuakedOn's bug list as well.
Im basically a brand new OW player. I played some pre season and earlier seasons on console but didnt touch it again until just a few weeks ago on PC. What was VERY clear to me, even as an OW/OW2 noob, was that the tank role and most of the tank heroes in the game, are rough. They are mostly boring to play, mostly boring to play against and something needs to give. Imo, most of these tanks just dont work as a solo tank. It leads to overcompensating on abilities and boring gameplay loops. I genuinely do think going back to 6v6 would be the most ideal, and the devs already have the formula available. It's not like it would be some revolutionary change or some massive developmental effort. I've been playing nothing but DPS and Support because just a few hours on Tank and I realized this. If I, someone with less than 100hrs on the game can understand this, so can everyone else and the devs. This leads me to believe that they simply don't care, but I think that was pretty evident in other ways too. It's a shame, Im loving playing the game again, but I can already tell once I start hitting those higher ranks, which I am more than capable of mechanically, this game is going to play like hell :/
I heard that they reworked the entire way the game works to make it 5v5 and that’s one of the reasons why they made OW2 in the first place. Fingers crossed that they change it though
As a old top500 roadhog otp I miss old hog so god damn much man. That rightclick was crack hitting those 1 shots on a tracer genji reaper was a rush like no other.
Rein pin should do 300-350 damage. It’s BS that you can land a money pin on a reaper/mei/torb/venture (with shields) and they survive. Also, there’s no reason fire strike shouldn’t be able to 2-tap. The shatter buffs were nice tho
That's horrible I am glad I left overwatch. Reinhardt is the only thing I miss from the game. Did they at least fix the vacuum/boop problem pin had at least now that it won't kill non tanks if you land it sometimes?
1000% agree. I’m a support main but considering a major part of my job is enabling my tank, it’s sooo sad to me how Rein has been absolutely shafted. Not just by 5v5 format but these “everything monster” tanks as Sprixy called them. Rein’s kit represents what made us all love this game. 😢
Kiri has a higher pick rate for every rank. Bap for sure might have more carry potential than kiri, but kiri is a more flexible, easier hero to pick up and also denies more value. Not saying bap is trash, kiri is just slightly better IMO, both are obnoxious.
@@AigamiXT yo got those swapped, bap is easier to make damage with, has 2 healthbars, and the lamp is two thousand times more forgiving and easy to use than suzu
But Bap requires good positioning more than Kiri, which is something a lot of lower ranked players dont have. Kiriko is a more forgiving character in the sense that even if you have bad positioning, if your teammate is close enough you have your get out of jail free card, which enables that more forgiving, flexible playstyle making her harder to kill which is why she's picked more so over than Bap in lower ranks especially. They just now started doing good with nerfing her suzu because of how much it denied. Bap for sure has more carry potential than her though through his damage, that I can agree on, and if thrown correctly lamp can be annoying yes. If anything, they shouldn't let her tp through walls. If that was gone I'd say bap is the better support over her.
This shit is bleeding over to other roles too like dps, my boy reaper is getting his tank buster identity erased whilst mauga gets off scot free and is meta like every other season. WTF blizzard reaper takes infinitely more skill than Mauga, at least I have to aim for the fucking head and try to get up close.
My whole play style on Echo was risky flanks where I used lack of footstep to assassinate their backline and GTFO. HP changes made that playstyle unviable. Just throw stickies from 30m away now. So fun.
It's crazy that they gave Roadhog a one shot and so much healing and they expect us to deal with it. This format is terrible it's destroyed so many heroes.
I've agreed with most of your opinions, on ow upon finding your channel. I'm glad someone else agrees with the Reinhardt take, reworking Rein means the end imo. He represents prime ow the most, I thought I was the only one. Love your channel, keep up the vids🎉
10:50 they actually nerfed sigma going into 5v5! Release sig was stronger than ow2 solo tank sig. how can anyone say that ow1 or role lock had a chance when sig was released. They took away sigs 2 shot which I don’t really care about tbh it was kinda op. They added more cc to the game with the trapped condition which makes it so you can’t use movement abilities in the ult rip reaper. Sig is a giga powerhouse that has a tool for everything.
For Rein, I think something that would help him is if he could charge with his shield up(disable pin when he does) and a short range(maybe 5 meter) jump attack(like he does in the Honor and Glory video 2:12)
Also, I really hate how people think us asking for the 6v6 format back is asking for full OW1 back to the exact detail. No, we aren't giving Orisa her shield back for 6v6 (although as mentioned the shield wasn't the problem) and no we aren't bringing 2cp back? 2cp has nothing to do with 6v6 pls be so fr. We're asking for 6v6 and 2 tanks back. Not a full revert. Besides, Queen+Ram would destroy OW1 double shield anyway. Give em a Lucio and DS is obliterated. You also made a great point about how they're softening each characters weak points. At this point they're really going to give Ana Heelies!
I 100% agree with your points about tank. The 4 second Dva matrix feels necessary so she doesn’t suck, but if you’re on Ana now, you’ll wait out her DM for a few seconds, she turns it off and you go to use your abilities and what do you know, she still has it… I just prefer how all these heroes were back in OW1. It was simply more FUN. I don’t even play tank but no matter the role everyone had more weaknesses and healthy counter play. 5v5 made counter play so oppressive to the game. Heroes that are all rounders destroy the heroes with weaknesses. I’m noticing more tanks not care because of how you have to play the role and they’ll just afk and say gg because they are responsible for front lining, peeling, and counter swapping
I dread the day when Junker Queen becomes that flavor of the month tank. She and Winston are my main tanks and I don't want to suddenly see everybody playing her and making me sick of seeing her to the point I quit using her myself :(
You were cooking until you started on Mauga 😂. Mauga is actually worse than hog or orisa if ur being honest cause atleast with them you can easily jump their backline Mauga being hitscan he just melts you still. But as a rein main I did appreciate ur rein part. My boy definitely lost a lot from his play and he isn’t nearly as fun anymore
I feel like 5v5 instigated the massive counterswap shenanigans. In the beginning over ow2 tanks would swap to counter each other (which was smart but boring), but now everybody swap just the tank counter cause if the other team loses their 1 tank you just win. Yippie.
He definitely was worse when he first came out, main issue now is he hard counters some tanks meaning if your tank picks a couple particular heroes into Mauga, it’s over
im a hog player since 2016,and playing him now isn't as satisfying as before i miss having a reinhardt or d.va on my team in 6v6,the plays we could pull off were incredible. and now i have to take some down bad horrendous backshots from tank,dps and support without a 2nd tank to help me.
I honestly don't mind the state tanks were in for early OW2. It's just post s8 they decided to turn every tank into a brick wall with half of them doing negative dmg and being impossible to sustain half the time.
mauga was literally sitting staring at my tank holding down the heal button. being stuck on Ana/kiriko/lw EVERY MATCH or you lost. If you even looked away from Mauga for a second he instantly blew up. Genuinely can’t believe you enjoyed that. Then everytime you lost it was a “sp diff” because Mauga players don’t believe in cover
25:47 correct: he doesn’t..until the enemy team gets tired of your antics and will still stick a sombra on you..tho to be fair sometimes even that doesn’t work
Playing Orisa is like being in a fever dream. You don't really know what the hell is happening in the game, except that you're probably pissing people off.
I used to play tank a lot in ow1 but since launch of ow2 I've hated it and only play tank when flex queueing for the weekly challenge, do not have fun just get through the match for the progress, even then I try to only flex when support time is lower hoping to just get support or hopefully damage.
Tanks are crazy because they have to be while in 6v6: tanks are crazy because each team mindfully commits resources to keeping them alive and ready to engage in the team’s game plan (dive, poke, or brawl). Defense was actually possible because poke was ALLOWED to be good, while it’s utterly dismal to hold any space defensively in OW2. Who do you play around? What if they move AT ALL? You just die? Got it.
never found an ow tuber i agreed so much with, overwatch is at its best when shit hits the fan and everyone's just aiming and shooting, lace that with a little coordination and team work and thats peak gameplay. not mercy ashe or widow or cassidy poking from out of range until 1 person dies thus toppling the rest of the team like dominos. very boring gameplay
28:27 lately it feels like you can only play Rein if you REAAAAALLLLLLYYYYY know what you’re doing. I don’t, and I’m constantly dying on him and going “welp…back to the tanks I’m (a little) less bad at”
Streets don't wanna hear it but 6v6 IS the solution. Tanks like Junker Queen, Doomfist, DVa, Roadhog would THRIVE alongside Sigma, Reinhardt, Ramattra because their kits are inherently designed with a main tank in mind. Orisa is worse now than she was in OW1 because her current kit tries to compensate for a lack of main/off tank. That's why tanks have the hardest counters in the game; they lack another tank for their weaknesses to not show as much. People need to stop blaming queue times or double shield like they didn't have clear solutions that Blizzard chose to ignore by going into production for OW2. 5v5 has severely crippled a key role in the game, and giving tanks less knockback or more armour isn't going to fix a damn thing because each balance patch is just changing who gets to be strong and for how long.
I don't wanna be rude but can we stop with this comment ? I see it everywhere and it was funny for a sec but it's getting silly since it brings nothing to the conversation. Plus it makes the topic sound like it's not important or not too serious, which it actually is.
I hate what they did to hog. I hate that the right click secondary fire is gone. I hate that worse hogs have the crutch of just spamming breather. I hate trap. I also hate how they brought the one shot back. Hog was so fun when he was F tier before the rework because it felt like at least I was rewarded for playing correctly. Now it's just holding right click the entire game because that's all i can do. There is so much downtime with the character. The reload is long, you have 1 actual offensive ability, and breather is just stupid. ugh i hate it and wish they just reverted him back to when he was a "throw pick"
i think if rammatra was in 6v6 his change has gotta be the change in form, you cant have a tank that is an off tank and an main tank, we would have to choose, and im not sure i would put him into the to and fro of rein, monke, sigma, rammatra would have to be like sigma, a tank that pokes from a distance but can brawl for a breif moment, the block would be useless tho so that would need a rework.
No matter what they can do to improve tank experience, they'll never fix the issue of solo tanking. Solo tanking just feels awful because you have to deal with almost everything. You have so many things to worry about as a lone tank. A second tank can alleviate some of those things from you.
The fact that Orisa Sig double shield became a thing as soon as Sig came out just proves that Orisa's design was flawed by concept too. Any of her iterations was a pain in the ass but yeah at least pre double shield orisa was less oppressive AND you could hs her
1:38 I will say this: 4 second DM is crazy but not TOO crazy. Dva still needs to take advantage of corners, high ground and other areas to make us to DM. Her DM cannot stop; Roadhog ult, reaper ult, Pharah ult. I’m extremely grateful for the buffs is for her booster damage and increased damage and less spread on her cannons. Make playing dva go up gets beams. There are too many characters that go into DM. It’s Fucking nuts, for Overwatch 1 it wasn’t too bad. But if you get a REALLY good dva main, the entire enemy team swaps to beams to completely shut her down. Her ultimate needs a buff absolutely. Immortality field and Suzu are the ONE things I dislike. The damage should ignore TP (on start up/ Immortality field) crush kills on the other hand are too good.
Because ow has one of the most incompetent out of touch balance teams on the planet. They killed the competitive integrity of the game and ruined the game again. Until they get fired i am not coming back. So probably one rein hammer will forever be left in the corner
bro ima be so honest….if they don’t bring back 6v6 or even tease the idea in the next directors take i am finally leaving for good. 5v5 is just absolutely unplayable 90% of the time, the que times that it was supposed to fix are now 7-8 minutes for diamond lobbies and the most dogshit matches, the severity of counterswapping/playing counter spawn simulator is so bad that there is no point anymore. in some recent tweet they said the will talk about 6v6 and honestly i’m huffing hopium because i don’t want to have to leave all of the friends and memories and mains i’ve had over the years
People just like to blame double shield even though it wasn’t the problem. Orisa doesn’t even have a shield in this game and she’s more annoying than she was before. This is proof that the sustain and fortify was the problem in her kit. Not the barrier.
Back when I played Overwatch 2 I was mainly a hog player. I don’t think he is op. Sure I’m biased, but every time I get a few good hooks, the entire enemy team swaps for me. I usually played open queue, so playing hog into Orisa, Zen, Roadhog, Mauga, and worst of all that demon Ana.
I WISH Bandai didnt kill Gundam Evolution because I almost guarantee a lot of overwatch 2 players would love the game, especially the tank characters like Sazabi and hybrids like Marasai.
We have a game where we want all the players have same impact opportunity, where every role needs to have same impact opportuinity, but where tank player have to have twice as big impact opportunity as any other player simply because they're whole class instead of half of it. Math doesn't math here.
Count the amount of t7m3s he says "oh can't really do this anymore....oh this poaystyle is gone now....well orisa just stops this character from playong the game" Skill expression and counterplay don't exist in this game No matter what do you it will get immortalitied or out healed and if youre playing tank youll just eat every single cooldown and then exploded for landing your ult or cooldown correctly
Just finished playing comp last night and I have played for a year. I’m a healer but the fact the if you’re tank is suck u will get rolled in no time. Like I played an against a sigma and my tank was going roadhog and dva on a push map get destroyed the game ended 1:30 of game play. Second who and tf ask for push maps and the bullshit 3 of 3 points map, they have terrible map design and are unplayable if you use certain heroes.
I honestly believe that if 6v6 comes back than overwatch 2 will raise from the grave again (yeah it still has a solid playerbase but its kinda dead in relevancy)
I'm plat constantly getting dumped into diamond and masters lobbies to get dunked on. On tank it's genuinely so bad, I can't do anything but cycle cooldowns and hope my team can do something because I'm genuinely useless. 6v6 and/or tank fixes won't help me. I will play 5+ matches in a row against diamond/masters players, lose all of them, win one and then immediately the game puts me against more masters the next game! For me 5v5 isn't what ruined playing tank, it's the fact that the matches can be so fucking wide even while solo queing. Did you know as a diamond rank player the game has a small chance to match you against Grandmaster players even in Comp? I found that out the hard way and I'm so glad I deranked to plat after that. If this keeps up I'm just gonna play on an alt because having to fight masters players to maintain platinum rank just ain't doing it for me.
As a Tank main ( mostly Doom/winston) that never touched Ow1 the only reason i kept playing after the first week was watching Zbra montages . i really wish i could try the 6v6 format or just played the game before ow2 i have no idea how playing with another tank is at all would be a learning curve for me but goddamn it must be better then getting fucking bulled by cass,sombra,brig,SUZU for the pass 11 seasons.
One of the absolute best things about 6v6 was the combo ults. Grav + D.Va Bomb was the ultimate “F you AND the horse you rode in on” message to send to another team. 😂
