Why so many "ineffective" martial arts?!?! Let's ask Shogo 

Thanks!

If you are unfamiliar with Shogo's channel, it is in the description, his channel is about everything concerning Japanese history, and social aspects.

Chadi thank you for interviewing Shogo. I view his mini documentaries as well. Your interview is absolutely spot on; Shogos' response insightful. As usual Sir you recreated great content. Brilliant interview. And I learn so much regarding cultural changes in Japan. Once again thank you for sharing your knowledge. God bless you and your family.

Amazing interview Thanstoboth of you :)

Very interesting!

I believe the spectacle element which sells a lot martial arts prioritizing looking good over effectiveness

Shogo is incredible. I learned so much from his channel.

Nice! So happy to sit down to this after training, especially with Iaido, which is one of those ineffective arts for sure. I love doing it, just like I used to love Shotokan kata, but it's just so I can move, stay active at home. BUT...I'm still fairly young so I crave live sparring and training still. I wonder as I age how my perspective will change ? You two both have unique perspectives and love to think and overthink on your journeys and it's fun to be a viewer and listen to the result of your musings.

Thank you for this post, Chadi! Definitely missed the old ways of training!

Thank you for your thoughtful questions and knowledgeable guests. Enjoyable interview.

My old karate master ( soke phil Milner) said, if you dont get on the tatami with a degree of fear,adrenaline, or excitement, your not training correctly. I'm now almost 62.....and still do this....and that's what budo is to ME....and I wont judge anyone else on how they wish to train 🙏osu

what a interesting video. Thank you Chadi

A very interesting interview in this day and age when humans want immediate gratification . Have a great weekend Chadi and Thanks again .

I enjoyed this conversation 👍

What a great conversation. You're good at these videos.

Chadi, everytime I watch your videos, it opens a whole new aspect of martial arts for me of which I didn't even know it existed.

Awesome talk Chadi! Thank you!

Wahhh i love this collab!

Love that you talk to Shogo, this was great.

I'm a big fan of both, is the entire conversation available?

The primary difference between martial/military fighting arts and combat sports is there can be no acceptable exchanges in a weapon based martial-military fighting art. Whereas combat sports have acceptable exchanges. Martial = Military. Military = Weapons based combat. In the realm of lethal weapon based combat there can be no acceptable exchanges. In combat sports, especially striking arts with limbs and sticks, we see a culture of acceptable exchanges. In martial aka military combat, be it warclub, spear, sword, axe, naginata, halberd, knife or firearms, there are no acceptable exchanges. This is biggest difference between martial aka military combat & combat sports.

Weight lifting was part of martial training back in ancient Greek. Then weight lifting is just weight lifting. Just lifting weights. Then bodybuilding came along. A bodybuilding completion is posing. POSING. Not even lifting weights. It is less martial with every iteration.

I follow both these guys! Two of my favorite RU-vidrs!

Thankyou to both of you for the regular videos and today's interesting debate. My own view is that the practice of any martial art is training in a "method" of dealing with an assailant - as opposed to wildly flailing around or freezing up. Different martial arts focus on different approaches (ie Karate for fist and foot strikes and Jiu Jitsu for throws and locks). Some martial arts training has focused on sport - such as Judo but a Judoka would still be a formidable opponent in a real fight. This is because Judo training is "resistance tested" with real opponents in training. Sadly some arts and / or masters have lost touch with the self defence purpose and the martial arts have become ineffective in a real situation, This could be a combination of the choice of techniques in the syllabus or the way training is conducted in a specific dojo. For example a lot of criticism is made of Aikido and its too gentle and unrealistic approach to training - yet as a trad Jiu Jitsu practitioner I know the techniques would work with understanding of when and how to apply them - and with the appropriate amount of aggression. When I practiced Karate we did a lot of striking practice but the emphasis was on numerous Kata - for which the application of most of the techniques was totally lost. Full disclosure: I am a trad Japanese Jiu JItsu instructor and have practiced Karate, Judo, Wushu, Tai Chi and some Aikido.

This interview was excellence for the points of Budo vs Bujutsu. Do vs Jutsu

I see Shogo really enjoying that this man took his time to study all this matters.

There always has been a dichotomy , (in all martial arts training), between teaching the students to be better while still being better. I remember a question and answer discussion at our dojo after class with Koichi Tohei where he was asked: "Sensei , aren't you afraid of some of your students surpassing you? (a question you never could have asked in Japan). And he smiled and said (having introduced Aikido into America, via Hawaii), "Every good teacher never stops being a student", "I am like a surfer riding a wave with all my students riding behind me, raising me up and pushing me higher and faster on the wave to being better", "Does that answer your question?" "No?" "It is like Basho said, always keep a beginners mind, don't try to be best, to defeat, to win, try to be better, to learn, to enjoy, to harmonize." This was in 1972 in Phoenix Az.

👍👍Interesting as always

Whao I never would've thought Shogo would be on this channel since he focuses on Japanese culture and modern social issues. Curious on how he talks about the do and jutsu of martial arts since he's predominantly an iaido practioner. But it's nice to see him on combat martial art channel.

I studied for 15 years directly under Yukon Kawahara who was the chief instructor of Canada. His regular classes were structured in a old school regime of building core , power, alignment and looseness of the body . Kawahara studied in Osaka under Bansen Tanaka he was trained in Judo, Karate Etc. My opinion is he expected the student to study all arts including boxing and wrestling to truly under Aikido and the Martial arts on a deeper practical understanding. Sadly Kawahara Shihan died in 2011 and this generation of teachings have died with it in Canadian ailkido

Great video, love both of your channels! I have a question for you... Will you ever do a video on bujinkan? It has an interesting story, some say its fake altho they have at least one of their koryu confirmed, kukishin den ryu or something like that... The rest are "in doubt" but the techniques are pretty cool

Chadi asked a very good question... So, i saw, many effective arts like judo become effective only for real huge muscular people. I think, the problem in both cases similar, and an answer is: teachers started to teach a wrong people. Wrong people became wrong masters. Some of them looks like weightlifters in gi, some like a decorative gan from glass, two different sides of the one medal.

I think all things is good. They have their own advantage and disadvantage. We just choose the advantage and mix it up. We have the new one.

Both old way and new ways have their own problems yet i found the new way is very pretentious, even worse than people of the old time. Remove the competitive aspect of martial arts and claimed that the art's purpose is to create a better person, that's not how it works. You literally can't improve if you don't compete against other people. Like Shogo said, it's all about the authority and face saving of the old generation, which is the total opposite of character improvement

This is a very interesting conversation... I was reminded of the old Donn Draeger books I read a long time ago that talked about the differences between bujutsu and budo.... And Chadi asks the important question of why the bujutsu schools lost their combative aspects... I think it has something to do with modernization in the Meiji period and as Chadi states at the end, the "fall of the samurai". While many budo schools embraced a safer sporting aspect (as in kendo or judo), the bujutsu schools eliminated the non-sportative randori that was too dangerous and could lead to serious injury or death... So martial arts in general either incorporated a safe sporting aspect or became just kata or meditation with the emphasis on human development. I think only recently with the influence of MMA, some martial artists/fighters in Japan (like Katsunori Kikuno who fought in UFC and in Ganryujima; or Shinya Kumazawa, also a mma fighter, in their youtube channels) are trying to retrieve realistic fighting techniques from old bujutsu schools (Kikuno who came from Kyokushin was looking into old Okinawan karate ryus and Kumazawa was looking into various jujutsu ryus, Okinawan karate ryus, and even Wing chun, etc.)

Its all about sport vs non sport. Non sport schools turn into kata demonstration schools. The creatuon of Judo as not just a sport but a combat sport is what perserves the moves

I think it's the individual it's a path to take once you start you'll find yourself and become a well rounded person that can take what you learned from the martial arts into your life and teach parts of what you've learned to your family and friends.

Teaching deadly moves has a huge responsibility, there's this famous episode about how the Uechi-ryu karate founder stopped teaching when one of his students killed someone with his techniques

They way I see it, in the most basic way. Jitsu 術 = built for war, Do 道 = built for sport

First : Please Dont Underestimate To Old Warriors, Second : A Style Of Martial Art Is Work,In Most Cases,It's Depend Us,Third : You Should Training The Style That You Learn Is Over And Over,Fourth : You Should Found Your Own Style When You Do It Any Drill Or A Style That Ideal To You,Fith : Dont Affraid To A Warrior Who Know Many Styles,But To Affraid To Warrior Who Explore One Style/Skilled (Lie Sui Wen) 🙏

4:26 I don't agree. Real combat and real sport are 2 different things. And 8 Dan 70 year old kendo master may likely lose to a 30 year old 4th dan in sport where speed is king, but in real combat when death is a possibility, the 8th Dan 70 year old may likely have a cooler head, and be able to beat the 30 year old 4th dan who will more likely panic at the thought of dying. Of course, this depends on the persons involved. Lots of fake masters out there.

I agree I believe to study a form it should be more how to apply the techniques vs all kata

I've gotten an advanced rank in one of the most respected Japanese Koryu Systems, have trained in Japan with the Shihanke several times (Who was also one of the last people to participate in Tairyu Jidai/Dojoyaburi) and have discussed several of the points regarding do vs Jutsu with my friends and teachers in Japan as well, and I have to say, I find a lot of the points raised in this video to be a bit strange, especially the usage of "do" vs "jutsu" and very much so in relation to Dojoyaburi. My Teachers, one of whom was also a teacher of japanese at a local highschool, was very clear that there cut and dry difference of"do" vs "jutsu" simply doesn't exist in Japanese. Case in Point, Araki Ryu, which is one of the more brutal and "crude" koryu styles (their description, not Mine) has always referred to themselves as a form of Budo, not Bujjutsu. Yagyu Nobuharu, the headmaster of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, also has been known to refer to his system as Kendo, not kenjutsu. While there is a linguistic difference, my friend was adamant that we overstate this in the West. And the topic of Dojoyaburi and Tairyu Jidai is actually really easy to clear up. It was made illegal. While this has been lessened to an extent nowadays, it still sticks in the mind of many and the training of everyone had to adapt. After that, old habits die hard. And the idea that this was a "respectful" act is an interesting interpretation. I've heard what the previous headmaster said about the schools the current headmaster had to fight. He definitely didn't seem to hold them in high regard.

On the topic of effectiveness of many schools and systems -- I think applications have long been separated from practice for a long time. We see this in the discussion of internal and external styles (and their interplay). In my opinion this exists because of the long standing practice of controlling banning or outright attacking martial arts by various governments over the centuries. -- I feel schools like Shaolin are great because of their teaching style without regard to the system, form or Kata being trained. In this way I separate teaching styles from a style(or system / curriculum) bring taught. -- because of this many people can train and learn the knowledge but only certain people will be able ( for various reasons possibly including chance) to learn the effective combination. It takes a certain type of person to understand the tactile nature of it.

"The fall of the Samurai." You hit the nail on the head. The fall of the samurai is written in the book Hagakure. The samurai fell again after World War II.

I've founded this to be apparent in Karate...mainly in shotokan

Thank you, but the interview seems unfinished.

I remember in 60 & 70’s in karate schools you got hit by Sensi with the kendo sword as he called out candance if you straightened your legs because your legs hurt from deep stances. Arms smacked if you didn’t block correct. Now no one would dare do that.

I subscribe to shoot Enjoy his education on Japanese history Especially his sharing the changes in Japanese martial arts

@Chadi, I would love to see podcast with you and Ramsey Dewey together.

On the topic of something being 'meditational', this not not new. -- I think many martial arts practitioners would agree that Bodie Dharma or dao Mao is at the source of many martial arts traditions. His masterclass was in meditation. (In Shaolin it is said he created some of the first Kata with the muscle tendon change classic - breathing and moving meditation) We now know from science that breathing is the key to the autonomic nervous system, which in my mind is evidence of genius before the time. -- meditation and breathing are fundamental part of many martial arts for this reason. It is a way to commune with/controll the subconscious or animal brain or whatever you want to call it.

What was the term for respectfully visiting gyms?

The Gendai Budo are actually far more "realistic" than the "koryu" and not the other way around as Shogo seems to make it appear if not in this than in a previous related video. The "-Do"-styles are way more combative and useful in actual combat than the - as Chadi correctly pointed out - almost without exception "form-only and no sparring" "koryu"-styles. That is also proven by the fact that it was Kendo, Judo, Jukendo, Aikido, and to some extent Karate-do that was trained by Imperial Army officers and soldiers, while Takeda-ryu Aikido based, Oba-sensei's Takeda-ryu Aikijujutsu - and no way ! anything occult, show only, form-only as Daito-ryu - was the martial art of the national revolutionary Genyo-sha, that also had a natural interest in practicing martial arts practical in actual combat including revolutionary activity or civil war as the Seinan war in which the Genyosha was heavily involved. You can go on and on: Two very modern styles, Tomiki Kenji's Shodokan Aikido and Nippon Kempo form the basis of not only Self Defence Forces unarmed combat but also arresting techniques of the Japanese Police (Taihojutsu). No military, paramilitary or police force in Japan in recent times ever has chosen anything as Daitoryu or even (way more reaistic) Sekiguchi- or Yagyu-Shingan-ryu. And the reason for this is clear to anyone who has even the slightest bit of experience in actual fighting. You need to learn to get hit, get punched, improvise , deal with unpredictable situations - none of which is possible through "forms and demonstrations only" kind of practice. As much as I'm grateful to Shogo for bringing up these important topics I feel the point he makes in regard to koryu and modern budo is reversing reality.

Two quotes to differentiate Bujutsu from Budo. 1. about Wushu/Bujutsu: “In training troops, the pretty is not practical and the practical is not pretty.” General Qi Jiguang (Ming dynasty, 1527 - 1588), chapter titled, “Boxing Classic Essentials”, in the "New Book of Effective Discipline". 2. about Wutao/Budo: "To plan secretly, to move surreptitiously, to foil the enemy's intentions and balk his schemes, so that at last the day may be won without shedding a drop of blood." The Art Of War by Sun Tzu. Bujutsu excels at killing. Budo is the decision not to kill. Bujutsu and Budo can walk together. The difference lies in the practitioner's choice. That's my point of view.

podcast?

The word you were looking for when you said "meditational" is "meditative", though I think I like your word better 😂

The separation between dou and jutsu really has to be the difference in intent. Jutsus are done with efficacy in mind- efficacy being: you intend your opponent to never get back up again. That just does not fly with the dou mindset. You think of your opponent's safety as well as your own. Any real application of jutsu with that "weakness" in mind is just half-hearted- and hesitation in combat can mean death. We can pursue the Jutsu's technical aspects for study in an academic sense- but for any safety to be virtually guaranteed, there can never be a "true dou" that retains a true combative nature- otherwise, we would be training people in the art of manslaughter. Just my 2 cents.

Another point overlooked, there are too many regulations martial art schools have to follow in the West, so Asian martial art schools have to change to suit the regulations, I can't trained Americans in USA the same way training in my country, I will get sued by so many Karens. In a way, it does detrmine how "effective" the martial arts become, at least on how western people look at it.

That was interesting. Osu!

Very interesting conversation. When, you talked about the difference in the training nowadays and before (as well as the more physically punitive training mentioned), all I could think about is videos I had observed of CHIBA Tsugutaka doing some Daito Ryu seminars. The very physical way he explained things (in a rough way), and how much of what he showed appeared to get back to the more martial roots. I will admit, I (maybe sadly) found his demonstration/explanation very funny. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zd__JjKT0Ms.html

YAY SHOGO 😄

Regarding the relationship between modern Budo and Koryu schools : the two are not mutually exclusive. The Koryu Jujutsu school I practice transitioned to Judo while keeping the Kata of Jujutsu, the current Soke is 6th dan in Judo, and his father was 8th dan. The Headmaster of Suio Ryu school, specializing in Iaijutsu but teaching other weapons as well, is 7th dan in Kendo. There are certainly other examples among the dozens or hundreds of Koryu schools that are still alive today. The best would be to practice both : because modern Budo are basically watered down versions of the ancient arts, keeping and amplifying the core of the techniques. Therefore practicing Judo actually helps in the practice and understanding of Jujutsu (which is why I started leaning Judo in the first place).

You should have Paolo on too.

There an extremely simple answer to this: the majority of martial artists seek the artistic expression over getting into dumbass fights on urine soaked bar restroom floors. People who seek the latter study MMA and constantly worry about whether or not they're better than that big guy over there, minding his own business.

Responding to your video's question, my answer would be: It is not about how "meditative" or spiritual an art is, but about the METHODOLOGY of training. So while "do" supposedly adds spirituality, there is no reason to not keep the combative functionality via a proper METHODOLOGY of training. So I do not see a good reason for two schools (do and jutsu). Ineffective martial arts in my opinion DO NOT EXIST, only ineffective martial art teachers that lack in knowledge A) of what a technique is suppose to be used for and not to be used for (both). B) of the necessities of a real "street" combat situation C) of the physics of the brain F) of what is mandatory to connect the three (A, B, and C). I will add another aspect. Why do we need a spirituality at all? I mean, why not properly train for self defence alone? In doing thing this, spiritual benefits will be gained (humility, confidence, control of self). Why must we still "religisize" something today, that should serve another purpose. For me this is suspicious, but won't get into that.

"grabbing the head and twisting it, it's a bit like 1st degree murder"- sounds like a simple everyday neck crank to me, I didn't know people die from that.

I love this video. I only think that you are very nostalgic about judo/ju-jitsu and have a hard time see the bad side of it. Correct me if i al wrong. Greetz

There are different types or purpose in training. 1) Professional use of Force - kill/capture e.g. Military/Police 2) Self Protection - laws matter A LOT here. (Most people who claim to teach self-defense actually don't) 3) Combat Sports - agreed contest under a rule set e.g MMA, Boxing, Judo, BJJ 4) Philosophy & cultural appreciation e.g. Tai Chi Chuan You train what you need from the list but it is important to know what you are training. One isn't the other and there are no arts that are inclusive of all factors. Each of these have sub-catergories and different elements within them. Nothing wrong with 'Do' or 'Jutsu/Jitsu' approaches people need to understand what they are training.

Too intellectual for me… yak yak yak let’s just work out, break a sweat and learn some effective technique have fun karate style sparring add or randori judo style

Masakatsu agatsu. True victory is victory over oneself.

The arts are not ineffective, shallow teachers have made the artists ineffective.

Older masters would just stop teaching most younger people too, much, so they can keep beating them.

What you described as dojo yaburi is actually musha shugyo. Dojo yaburi is bashing other dojo by defeating it's intructor and take it's reputation down.

Any martial arts teacher should know how to make training hard, but not life-threateningly dangerous.

It started when the tai chi cosmos movement was removed. Tai chi was named after this force.

Ah, he mentioned the kid that died doing sumo training. His teacher was a monster, beat him with a beer bottle.

Shogo San responses are pretty accurate. I want to add about Karate: How do you suppose a Karate class should be? Knock out all of your class mates in every training? or you be knocked out? or even better; be fractured and after kicked in the groins, punch with my finger on your eye and let you blind. That would be good enough! Or in Judo etc; just brake and mutilate the fingers and arms of several students per training. That s good; that is real martial arts. Please Mr Chadi; do a fair response to this. Also; seems that you really do not understand for what is a Kata. Then, Japan is a civilized Country where there s enough space to try to be a better person not an street fighter. I lived for a few months there. --I have plenty of ribs fractured and get fissures every few classes doing Karate and all with control...imagine without control.

🤔💯👌👍👊

Podrías subtitular al español, estamos suscritos al canal pero nunca entendemos nada es una pena

There's so many ineffective arts because of a lack of meditation, you asked? LMAO... How about a lack of effective training because the teachers have no idea how to fight and the students don't fight with it (for those who don't) Judo is of course not one of those... Think that might have something to do with it? LOL