no, she burned down teldrassil because greymane attacked her ship during the events of legion without good reason - he had thought sylvanus pulled back and didnt help the alliance just because she wanted to - when in reality the demons had flanked their position and there was a battle atop the cliff. she's sick of being considered a monster when she does what she feels is moral. Turning new people into the undead with the vrykul shouldn't be compared to reproduction. It's more 'recruiting' than reproduction. She's not a saint, but she's also not a monster. Azshara sold out her people for personal gain, over and over again serving different masters who were evil liars. Kiljaeden and Archimonde sold out their people and their dedication to justice for power in exchange for servitude and warmongering. Sylvanus hates the fact that she's an undead in a world of the living. She wants to be in the realm of death, where the living are the undead, and the dead are what is normal.
@@codyhumble7855 Ah yes, literal genocide in response for someone whose kingdom you destroyed after the Cataclysm attacking your ship. Totally warranted response.
It was partly for vengeance but also it prove a point that elune doesn’t care and wont wouldn’t do anything thus proving that “hope dies” I still believe she’s still good even in shadowlands
@@justins340 Sorry but Gilneans deserved what they got in Cata, all thanks to Graymane's bright idea of Gilexit and screwing over the Alliance and even his own people who were left behind the wall. His son's death was a selfless act, and he was fueled by hate and vengeance, Graymane was probably the most stable non-existant character development, he hates Sylvanas and that is all he is, he also disowned his daughter, and cares little for his people and the Alliance.
It doesn't erase her backstory, though. She has been a well-loved character because of her backstory. :) And her service to the forsaken :) That's why I like her at least. Then again, I am VERY curious about her motivations now, haha!
@@Knallbart what service to the Forsaken you are just her puppets bodies to put between her and death she is no leader she refuses to wear the burden of leadership she is a tyrant and a monster worse than the man she hated to her core.
@@Knallbart It's been revealed that she's been working for/with the Jailer of The Maw in the Shadowlands ever since she flung herself from ICC and was resurrected. All her actions from then on were directly influenced by the goal of filling The Maw with souls, thus empowering the Jailer, and thus empowering herself.
I just realised: When Sylvanas tried killing herself, she saw Hell. When she was killed later on, she saw only darkness. Maybe something about her suicide influenced her ... She impaled herself on the spikes of Icecrown Citadel. A building made from Saronite ... The Blood of Yogg Saron. It is the blood of Yogg Saron that made her see Hell.
Oh shit That could be why. But wasn't saronite only applicable to living beings?Sylvanas is dead,so how could she have been affected?Unless saronite has another property Bizzard or anyone else hasn't brought up...
@@sffb8295 As you quest through Northend you will encounter many Mines where the Undead are harvesting Saronite with mindless ghouls. Upon reaching the Alliance Quest "The Search for Slinkin" you are tasked with finding Slinkin the Demo-gnome. You find his corpse surrounded by undead Miners, grasping his final notes: _"Chased into a dead end. Hidden for now, but they know I'm here. It won't be long until they find me._ _The miners work tirelessly to unearth the strange ore that fuels the Scourge war machines. There is much banter. The language of death confounds me, but I have been able to identify commonly uttered sounds and phrases. The word "Yogg-Saron" is said with great contempt and is usually followed by loud outbursts. They refer to the ore as "saronite."_ _Meaning?"_ Confirming that Saronite does affect the mind of the Undead. Ghould become more savage when they are being injected with saronite ore, Skeletons and Ghouls alike start whispering the old gods name, one starts to wonder what a full on impalement with pure saronite would do to an undead.
@@bass-dc9175 Now it all makes sense. Why Sylvanas is the way she is. The Saronite impaled her and the result was that it definitely affected her way of thinking,hence her actions in future expansions. I really wish Blizzard would explore this,because it can explain what went wrong with the Banshee Queen. Then again,I feel like they're already aware because they're driving her to be a villain by having her burn Teldrassil and defeat the current Lich King,or at least that's how I feel. If the Horde and Alliance are aware of how Saronite affected her,they could find a way to avoid that stuff in the future. Maybe even redeem Sylvanas?But I think she's too far gone considering the terrible things she committed in Battle for Azeroth and even in Legion. And you can't simply expect the Horde and Alliance to forget what she did either. AAAAAAAAA I'm just really bothered they made her this way lmao Damn it Blizzard!
Immediate eternal damnation, rotting alone, or The Forsaken. People trying to argue this "choice" really ought to learn about the term "Coercion" and it's legal and ethical implications.
Ok, that was not her fault - but seeing how she attacked a target with (almost) no strategic value (Teldrassil - seriously, the Nightelfs weren't truly bothering the Horde and their capital was a far away place (Azeroth is bigger than what we see in the game after all, it would take days to fly from one end to the other, if not weeks!)), while losing Lordaeron's former capital (undercity!) which IMHO was strategically important - despite the fact that she had months to prepare for the Alliance assault! Not to mention that sacrificing your own troops to raise as mindless undead makes for a greate moral booster -.-
@@dreamingflurry2729 Abandoning your humanity and suppressing emotions while thinking with logic and realism during a war as an undead must be incredibly tough on sylvanas windrunners sanity... Edit: I see your point and am looking at her in a different light now instead of fanboying all over her.
@@dreamingflurry2729 what? the fact that their in the Alliance mean they will and always be a threat to the Horde.As long as the Nelf are in the Alliance they will always be the knife in the horde back.The alliance can always pull back to the Nelf capital and defend it since you know it's an island.If the horde don't take care of it the Alliance can always use it as a staging ground for attack,stabing the horde in the back
well she right tho. i mean compared to the titans we're not even ants, microbs really. they don't care if we're horde or alliance, they see us the same. and looking at where the story is progressing towards (light vs void) there's even a greater difference in between those 2 primordial forces and titans than in between us and the titans. we are indeed nothing.
im a big fan of her, and sylvanas is not the warchief the horde deserves, but what i needs. at start of expansion i was super excited for sylvanas securing kalimdor for the horde and all those achievs in warfare (like pushing through ashenvale to darkshore, no warchief ever done that before) but now at 8.2.5 i see that only a morally grey and extreme leader like sylvanas would be enough to put both factions together now she's super 100% pissed off and tired as hell of leading horde lol
I mean, she did purposely use the plague on horde warriors at the attack on undercity only to resurrect them mindless undead, putting her on the same level as Arthas, which is something Garrosh predicted would happen years ago.
That's just Blizzard's bad Story writing for her … they said they wanted to get rid of her Character for years.. but couldn't because she was so popular! And now they make her the next motherf***er because they drove her character (finally ???) in the direction for loosing popularity. Her Actions are far from beeing IC in BFA … and I HATE IT!!!
To be honest, using the corpses as soldiers is the best practical thing to do. That is the thing with necromancers. The more people die in a fight, the more troops a necromancer has. So the longer the battle lasts, the harder it gets to defeat the necromancer. Not taking the corpses as front line would have been the stupid thing. Strategically speaking. It's a smart move. And here another point comes up. Sylvanas is dead. Therefor Sylvanas knows something that Garrosh for example didn't know: Honor does not win wars. The more unfair you fight, the higher your chances of winning. And here's the real twist: Fighting without honor actually saves lives. Why? Fighting with honor would mean fighting the enemy on the same level which means that in a battle the losses of both sides would exceed the necessary. Fighting unfair, extremely unfair could even reduce the number of fallen to one side and may even be routing the opponent, making the enemy surrender. It's not a good thing to do, but it is a smart thing to do. - Her actions are actually very in character. She's dead. She doesn't care for honor. She's all in for survival and winning. I don't know what game you've played, but if you thing Sylvanas persona has changed, than you've not played a warcraft game. Do you remember in Warcraft three, were she allied with Alliance troops to take back Lordearon city and right after taking the city, killed off the alliance troops and Garithos? Yeah, that was Sylvanas. She hasn't changed, you just haven't paid attention. In terms of burning Teldrassil, as another example, it wasn't a dumb move or out of character either. First: it is a harbor and major city with portals direct behind the Hordes lines. That means if war breaks out the Horde will have the nightelves in their back. Therefor the nightelven territory is the first target to prevent this situation from happening. Burning it is actually an act of terror and does two things: it strikes fear into the alliance, maybe it was a bit overkill as it also put more hatred than fear into it but second and more important: Teldrassil is lost for the Alliance. There is no retaking it. (And not forget, it pisses so many alliance players off, it's getting funny) - She never was the good guy. She wasn't even a grey character. She has always been ruthless. (Please no morally grey comments, no one actually ever said that Sylvanas is morally grey. What was said is, that the Horde is morally grey, which does not mean that every single character in the Horde is. Sylvanas is and has always been a dark character)
Der Schurkinist You’re kidding right?She is destroying Horde, she killed Horde soldiers, she lost Saurfang, Bane is about to leave her too. She has only one Valkyr remaining. She forced Malfurion to take action against the Horde. Everyone except Nathanos and the Forsaken dislike if not hate her. Btw there still is a Draenei city in Kalimdor which was ignored by her..
You've never played a Necromancer faction in strategy games or a Necromancer character, eh? And then you people always seem to forget, Sylvanas is not a good person. She doesn't particularly care for how people feel about what she does. And why should she? She's dead and alone because of that she has a much different view on the world as Saurfang or Baine for example.
*TL;DR: The forsaken only matter to Sylvanas for as long as they can protect her from hell* *Sylvanas did not move or shy away. "I was once like you, Garrosh," she answered, her voice quiet and steady, loud enough only for the warchief to hear. "Those who served me were tools. Arrows in my quiver."* ... *The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.* Nowhere in this part of the Edge of Night short story is there any mention of her desire to also keep her people safe from hell. They were nothing more to her than tools before she killed herself and saw hell, and now that she *has* seen it, only now does she value them, because they keep her safe from it. The fact that she values them now because they're her "bulwark" for her doesn't change the fact that now, as before, their only value to her lies in their utility, not her love for them. "To be used wisely." That's why she kills her own people just for having thoughts of leaving her. It's not that she loves them, it's that she needs them. In life she was a high elf, in death she became a banshee. Because of this, as far as I can tell, she is essentially immortal and the only things that can kill her are herself and her enemies, and thus she needs her "bulwark" to fight her battles for her, keeping her safe from anything that might send her back. How else, after all, would they be protecting her from it? Even those who considered leaving were killed because if left alive, they might hold and spread notions of disloyalty that would ultimately weaken her bulwark. If she really cares about her people, why did she leave them ungoverned, as mentioned in Before the Storm, while she was off trying to enslave the Val'kyr in Stormheim? Could she not have at least appointed a temporary leader? A sudden change in priorities, it would seem, when she had discovered a new, better tool to protect herself. Why concern herself with the wellbeing of her people, her bulwark, who can still fall and who need leadership, space, time and resources, when the queen of the Val'kyr could offer so much more? Given the choice, why settle for a suit of armour and a few extra lives when you can just get infinite extra lives? Her people became nothing to her the moment a better solution to her problem presented itself. Sylvanas's investment in the Forsaken exists only for as long as they can protect her from hell. An employer might treat their employees well, but no one is calling him "benevolent" when he fires them all after seeing how much more efficient and cost effective it would be simply to replace them with machines that could do their jobs better and faster.
Well i agree most of it but didn't she lived because of them, the forsakens. Remember the vision those Scourge valkyr shown her? Forsakens burning themselves to the fire, and etc. Not that she didn't love them but she wants them to have a purpose rather than having a second just for nothing. I'd say that's love. I think she only said ""Those who served me were tools. Arrows in my quiver." to be something in Garrosh's eyes and that she can lead the forsaken for herself. TBF, Forsakens are nearly immortal if you lose a limb get one from a dead guy or steal one from another forsaken. HAHA She's is the warchief already in 'Before the storm' ofc her land is protected and let it ungoverned. Elsie did took over unofficial, i wouldn't say its ungoverned. Remember when there's the gathering of horde leaders, most of them thinks she favors her own people than other horde members. Anyways this are just my opinions. XD
Well here's the only explanation I found.blizzard was supposed to deal with Sylvanus either changing her r ending her in pandaria.however they turned her grey which Sealy pissed off few but wasn't that bad.the problem started when she became watched she started doing things that made no sense at all.even for her.i mean think about it.you want to stay alive.which is more accurate way of doing it making more friends r making more enemies.all she needed to do was ensure war didn't happen again and she wouldn't die at all.sje would b watched as long as she needed to be.sylvanus was never impatient always knowing when one arrow can do the work of a thousand in another time.how did she randomly end up as a person who burnt a tree and became top priority on the kill lists of half the world and then turned even worse by hunting saurfang instead of at least telling her rangers to try arrest him r bring him back.then she hints thrall like an idiot 3 fourth of the horde (not including the "champions" r half including them) love thrall and she just made all of them her enemies.and don't get to the whole if all is forsaken then she will b safe forever crap that's not how things work matter of fact that's stupid really stupid.the thing is simple as wow was dieing they did legion made some meh changes to the story course and killed the legion and imprisoned sargeras.however when that was done there wasn't much to do.so they started this charade.i mean securing azerite is one thing but then burning the tree just shows Sylvanus is either stupidly stupid r is not herself.think about it the Sylvanus we knew probably laid some good bombs under stormwind underground and then blow it up.i mean really don't need azerite just make everything go boom.Really if we wanted to burn the tree since the start y not recreate the attack on the druid meet and kill all the alliance leaders.i mean sure that was the twilight cult but still it's not impossible to do.quite fairly would b a lot more easier.
Remember that time, where we held a counsel where the forsaken met up with the living, and when they wanted to stay together and Sylvanas killed the all.. yea, good times.
I would say it did. It gave me the context to why everything happened, where before I actually thought the Forsaken were accepted in WoW lore by other races. I had no idea they were still hunted.
I disagree. I think her warbringers now makes more sense after seeing this. She is doing everything in her power to prevent her people from being sent to hell. Beyond that, burning the tree shows she can still be emotionally conpromised and has actual feelings. Being shunned by the people she protected and loved because of someone else's doing (Arthus) has made her resentful towards them.
If the alliance and the rest of the WoW factions just left her and her forsaken alone she wouldn't be doing any of this. So she's not even really a villain.
I will level my main to max level for the full purpose of killing her left right and center (because she burned teldrassil and thousands of night elves+almost my main shaiel who is a 120 balance night elf druid who used to have all the artifact weapons and i think my mom deleted them cause i dont need them and i let her have access to my account and every single character)
BOOBS. And a "I'm a bad ass bitch 'bout to bitch it up" vibe. She's a douchebag. Douchebags tend to be attractive because of a false dominance and confidence factor. We're hardwired to be like "They will make strong babeh" I like how Blizzard has given her more and more resting bitch face and thinner lips vs her previous look that you can see in the loading screen. She actually just reminds me of a Karen now. Douchebag Karen. That's her new name for me.
*Everyone hates sylvanas for no reason cus she's undead* *forces night elf to see her burn down her home after already winning the battle, kills innocent citizens, uses blight on her own horde soldiers during the battle for lordaeron, after killing her own horde soldiers raises them as mindless undead and uses them against the alliance, leaves Saurfang to die after realizes she lost the battle* SYLVANAS DID NOTHING WRONG EVERYBODY CALM DOWN SHE'S MISUNDERSTOOD! p.s btw genn did what he did bc sylvanas killed his son, murdered his people, and destroyed his city lol p.s.s the old undead cinematic literally said the undead only joined the horde for convenience and so they can complete their "dark plans" they "harbor no true loyalty towards their primitive allies" (meaning orcs, trolls and tauren) P.S.S.S Sylvanas made it clear that she wants to annihilate all "life" Even Garrosh knew deep down sylvanas had an evil heart, he even said that she's starting to resemble the Lich King You know you're a bad person when another bad person thinks of you as evil Face it brodie, you work for hitler now
"leaves Saurfang to die after realizes she lost the battle " *siiiiigh* that crap again? Could you guys, like, actually play that event and read the dialogues? Saurfang WANTED to stay behind, because of some honor garbage. "she lost the battle" Yeah, what do you want to do against deus ex machina Jaina with a shitton of plotarmor? If you watched the cinematics during the event, the alliance was actually losing REALLY hard until deus ex Jaina arrived with a flying ship and magical cannons and a global frost nova.
Dont forget enslaved humans being experimented on in apotechary quarters... POW slavery and torture. What would Thrall say to lobotomized public slaves?
Sylvanas never claimed to be a good person. She is a WARCHIEF and she gets results. And what of alliance huh? What they did to the blood elves , forsaken ,goblins? Alliance is notna pure good who works for the peace and roses and rainbows.
* me two weeks ago * - Yeah she's totally the best warchief! I'm so happy this where they're taking her story! * me now * - .... look it's complicated, okay?
Teldrassil was planted after WCIII when Nordrassil was destroyed to kill Archimonde. Teldrassil was planted against the wishes of the Circle of Ancients & the Dragon Aspects. The reason it was planted was because some dumb Night Elves thought it would bring back their immortality, it didn't BTW. The only True World Tree in Azeroth is Nordrassil, which is atop Mount Hyjal. Andrassil (the cut down tree in Grizzly Hills, Northrend), Teldrassil, Shaldrassil (the tree in Val'sharah), & the Unnamed Tree (the tree in the Emerald Nightmare) were never suppose to be planted/exist.
"Before the Storm" came out recently. A good read, and although I haven't finished it yet, she's definitely not put in a great light, especially when compared to Anduin, who unlike her, is trying to make peace with the Horde. I won't say much to avoid spoilers but, her opening chapter is all about her wanting to turn Stormwind citizens into Forsaken.
i disagree. "death to the living" - that is what Sylvanas want. she would sacrifice the hole horde for the forsaken. i think sylvanas become slowly something like the new lich king.
There are many sentiments that disagree with that. BFA has shown her doing a lot for the Horde. She is the most successful military tactical the Horde has ever had
@@logancloud2222 and yet she couldn't even take control of all of gilneas dispite having all of the advantages. It isint talked about alot in the lore but the gilnean resistence did push Sylvanus and her forsaken out of gilneas at least to the greymane wall and even pushed into lordaron for a time before they were forced to retreat under threat of having Darius cralys daughter be killed and raised as a undead. Hell a separate group of gilnean resistence even retook apart of the captial although they were under the control of a black dragon and he is dead it is still assumed that the resistence is still in operation in the captial. Sure she has a good "military record" but that was usually from trickery and deceit most achual campaigns it seems she ends up launching end in her Lossing and then she retaliates by dropping pleauge or blight on the battlefeilds. Remember the captial of lordaron was almost reclaimed untill she deployed the blight.
@@Demicleas You mean GIlneas, the city under the underqualified ruler. If it wasn't for the Forsaken, Greymane would have seen the city tear itself apart. Sylvanis lost only twice in her war efforts. You act like information monoply isn't apart of war. Oh my using a weapon they developed, def didn't see that coming from the War Machines of the Drenai, the Powerhouses of the Alliance Mages like Jaina. Remember they would have lost the battle against Loderon if Jaina didn't turn it around, and even save them from Sylvanis's trap. The entire Alliance leadership. Let's continue, the Druidic power to use the forest against Sylvanis of Night Elves, the Gnomes Power-house flying machines. Yeah, she uses the Blight which she developed to fight the Lick King
Sylvannas has insane micro skills pre-wotlk. Humans and orcs could just spam footman or grunt and know there’ll be more in stock (sex and reproduction). But Sylvannas’ microskills is soooo good, she managed to remain high upkeep while: defending Lordaeron from the scourge and scarlet crusade scarlet. And still has enough forsaken left over to send an army to northrend. Like damn. If you could go thru all those campaigns while minimizing loss it just shows how crazy micro skills Sylvanas has.
well she opened with altar and rush made a dk and tech to tier 2 with lich and farmed near by camps to get level 3 and 2. didnt go for an expansion and nuke untis with death coil and frost nova, instantly melted the archmage, even went to tier 3 making dark ranger with destroyer to killer towers, strong leader and mirco skills :)
Highest IQ? He might be a sleazy, sketchy, slimy, money-grubbing little bastard.. But Gallywix definitely takes the cake for intellect. His ambition, cunning, mathematical ability, foresight, strategy and business skills allude to his capacity. His application of that intellect may be highly questionable but he is still extremely intelligent. Sylvanas isn't a moron by any means.. But she lacks foresight, subtlety, tactic, political machination and straight up fucking humility. She's a capable leader for a facet of an entity.. But Warchief.. ? Her ambition far exceeds her competence and she'll pay for that mistake dearly.
I have another explanation on Sylvana's popularity. She's just the next Arthas. Not in a sense of becoming the next raid boss, but in a sense of an undead champion with complicated story where light and darkness mix. Arthas'es play was to succumb to the darkness completely, even cutting out his heart (btw too bad that it wasn't spotlighted enough) and letting another soul into his body in the process. Sylvana's play is completely different. Arthas was raw power. Sylvanas is a cornered animal. Arthas would only consume. Sylvanas would take her own life. So, it gives new spice and vision to the overall favourite background of being undead, powerful, doing bad things and mixing light and darkness in one character. I just hope Blizz's finally do something right in a while and play Sylv's card well, not making her too soft or , on the contrary, suddenly brainless.
About the free will part... while its true for a lot of instances, there are some cases when this should be questioned. mostly in silverpine forest. if you have played this zone as horde, you know what i mean. Literally, you go onto an island filled with refugees, refugees mind you running from the forsaken, who moments later take the worgen curse to prevent turning into undead, but the ones you kill, join without question. Seem odd to anyone?
I call it shitty writing. They are retconning much that made Sylvanas a morally grey character and turning her pure evil for some odd reason. They are basically giving her the Garrosh treatment.
I believe it was clarified: you need permission to have free will. HMMMM. Also Imaran it's not a retcon if its lore straight up from the same writing period as that morally grey writing. Sylvannas was morally grey because of a situation which is now gone.
Nah, Chronicle is retconning all her morally grey decision to just evil decisions. Like the attack on Gilneas. I can defend it the way it was, where Garrosh ordered her to do it. It was either them or her, kill and survive or refuse and die. Now, in the Chronicle books it was retconned to: She decided to attack cause she so evil. Legion just went with the sloppy writting of Chronicle that retconned her from morally grey to just straight up evil, cause Blizz needs a new raid boss, so it is time to demonize another Horde leader for no damn reason.
Imagine suddenly becoming the leader of a race that is considered as abominations by one side of a two-faction conflict. Your people are actively shunned at best and hunted down at worst. This race is also dying out and it’s people now look to you for guidance. In that situation, who wouldn’t choose the ruthless path? Taking the neutral or passive approach would make an already bullied race easier targets.
She activity exterminated her own people multible times for either trying to seek peace with the alliance or meet up with the living. Hell it got so bad even the gilnean resistence starting getting forsaken recruits as assassin's to fight the forsaken.
Once again, the Tauren are the voice of reason and spoke one the Forsakens behalf! That’s why the Tauren is one of the best races: They have so much compassion, but piss them off and you get the horns. RIP Carine Bloofhoof.
Love the Tauren, one of my favorite races among the horde. I am curious, given their connection to the world through their shamans and druids how they will take the burning of a world tree. Under Alliance control or not I would think it wouldn't sit well at all with them.
I believe they'll work with her somehow in a positive way in BfA. I mean she's a pivotal character in Battle for Azeroth along with Thrall, Jaina, Vol'jin, and Anduin so I do think she might go through some kind of arc that might change her a little bit. But we honestly have to see for ourselves.
Blizzcon 2017 here is a picture of the pivotal characters of Battle for Azeroth: truth.bahamut.com.tw/s01/201711/e5cf92c1bc10f77d351a55db217729b7.JPG Also if you look on Wowhead regularly there is datamined information regarding Vol'jin. He is coming back we just don't know how exactly quite yet.
Vol'jin MIGHT be coming back as a loa. This isn't a spoiler because blizzard admitted to putting out fake dialogs in the alpha to throw people off. What was datamined points to it though so maybe...
*spoiler* In BFA the Horde carpet bombs a town full of innocent people, including children. There's a child NPC asking his mother why she isn't moving as she is pinned to a wall with pitchforks.
I appreciate the context that brings Sylvanas more into an antihero light, but to portray her only as "a hero who has to do bad to do good" is a disservice to the complexities of her character.
I agree, she is not lawfully good or even chaotic good, she is a chaotic neutral character. She does what she does to survive and to ensure the continued existance of her people.
The sad thing is that a lot of people actually make these exact points in defense of Sylvanas, even after all that went down in Before the Storm and in Darkshore. It's not April anymore and "morally grey" is the new black.
I'm not just saying this as a Forsaken main, but.. she's probably the most complicated leader in the game, at this point. Majority of the Alliance are 1 dimensional. The only one who isn't (ironically) is Velen, who started to question himself towards the end of Legion.. Gelbin Mekkatorque has so little story that he might as well be a vegetable skinner. The Dwarves haven't had *any* story since Cata and are currently forgotten in their room in Ironforge as sparkle dwarf saves the day. Tyrande loves Malfurion and blindly follows Elune... that's her character. Literally nothing under the surface, since the War of the Ancients book series. Anduin follows the Light and is the current "hooman savior of the Alliance" because fuck the other races. (Seriously not happy with how Blizz has blatant human favoritism since the entirety of Warcraft. Let the Gnomes have a turn, damnit.) Horde leaders are treated equally. By that I mean they're equally left behind as Nathanos steps into the spotlight. Thrall... Green Jesus needs to spend some time in Teldrassil, he's had enough story. Baine is such wasted potential. Since Cata, we haven't seen nor heard anything substantial from him until he gave that speech in the Legion epilogue cinematic. He could have had some form of book about coming to terms with becoming chieftain. Lor'themar is a prime example of what the Alliance races need. A patch full of content that puts them in the forefront on the battlefield. Blizz, I beg of you.. we need a Isle of Thunder 2.0 with Gnomes. Horde leaders seem to be more developed than the Alliance ones. Simple fact. The only two Ally leaders who had any noticeable character development since their inception are Andy-when and Velen. So much wasted potential in the other leaders that it's almost painful.
Horde are useless at choosing leaders *Thrall leaves, appoints bloodthirsty orc as Warchief* *Garrosh is defeated, Voljiin is Warchief who then proceeds to do nothing except die to a trash mob* *Voljiin dies and promotes Hitler with tits to Warchief even th he doesnt trust her but decided to make her Warchief while he was high*
Literally the same about this video can be said about EVERY single race leader. The Dwarfs, everybody despises them, Garithos treated them as trash after the scourge invasion on lordaeron, then they got no help from their own faction when they required help against frostmane trolls or the dark iron dwarfs. Then the Horde threatened to conquer their Alterac Valley and invade Wetlands and Hinterlands, they had an archeologic campment in Barrens that got slaughtered by the horde, because Horde literally sees no race has right to live. Did the dwarves choose an evil path? no The Blood elves, everybody despise their path of demonic energy source (initiated by Kael'Thas), they were left alone by the Lordaeron Alliance, they were betrayed by Illidan and the Nagas, though Velen reignited the Sunwell and helped them not become demonic-reliant, they were rejected by the Alliance again, so they had to stay with the undeads, leaded by Sylvanas, a woman who threatened their leader to death and to literally kill all Quel'Thalas and rise them as undead servants. Did the Blood Elves choose an evil path? no And i could continue on an on... everybody has issues on this game, thats the point of every race, struggling to survive in the world. Yet no leader chooses evil options besides Sylvanas, and thats why people compare her to Garrosh... there is no complexity on her character, just a very big fandom behind her that justifies EVERYTHING she does even when the path she is taking is no other than the own Lich King one.
Sylvannas was always a great and cruel evil character. When did this morally grey stuff happen? When sylvanas forced the bloodelves to support the campaign in northrend or get kicked out of the horde and die? When she enslaved one of the Nethrazim in Wc3 and let him work on the blight in UC ? When she massacred the Gilnean? Whe she forces undeath upon innocent civillians and gives them the option to either join or be hated by the whole friggin world? She did all this for ONE GOAL, the retribution against Arthas and what he has done to her and what she does to everyone serving under her. The character in itself forces her greatest misfortune under her own subjects. How can this be grey? Am i suddenly colourblind? Which is very interesting but in what sort of twisted world is this considered "morally grey"? Arthas is dead her greater goal is achieved. The continuation of the forsaken is the cost of the innocence of every future member they might get. A GOOD OPTION would be offering eternal life to anyone who wants it. Anyone who otherwise would die of OLD AGE, HUNGER or POVERTY. Anyone remember the Cult of the Damned and its goals? They had TONS of members, people who were afraid, who didnt want to live a mortal life in a world filled with chaos, death and monsters.
Btw, when she makes you undead you don't have much of a choice, don't you? Serve her or die. Even if they are not mindless zombies they are forced to serve her. We have that in real world, it is called a dictator.
Not really, you can fight her and die, you can die if you want to, or you can do your own shit or you can serve her. Two options include death, the other two don't.
Doing own shit if you are nothing special is equal to death, and most of undead are nothing special. in just several cases new undead is strong enough to survive alone.
Considering every time a community has risen outside the forsaken it has turned into a rebellion (against a leader they don’t follow, might I add) it is astounding Sylvanas even still offers a choice.
alvi syahri Sylvanas murdered Forsaken civilians wanting to defect only to reunite with their living relatives. That doesn’t threaten the forsaken, and clearly free will isn’t something they have anymore
Her goals have always been selfish, the latest so far was in Legion when she betrayed the Valajar in her selfish pursuit for immortality. Putting the whole campaign against the Legion in jeopardy by betraying an ally faction fighting the Legion. She even colluded with a sworn enemy of both the Alliance and Horde, Helya. If she truly was a good character there would not be a dark place in hell waiting for her that she is terrified of going to. Due to what transpired in Stormheim I wonder why Alliance did not get the Valajar Vrykul as an allied race, they have every reason to align with them. The Horde betrayed them and Alliance saved them. They had a hell of a lot more reasons to be picking sides than the Nightborne did thats for sure. It would also make for an interesting story with Alliance possessing a similar kind of power that the Undead possessed since Cataclysm. Not to imagine I think it would infuriate Sylvanas that the Alliance now have the power that she wanted so badly.
+Project DASKZ Eyir is a titanic watcher who turns the worthy into the Valk'yr, she is very important to their ascension rituals. She is who makes more Valk'yr to begin with, which is why Sylvanas tried to enslave her. Sylvanas enslaving her is not something they can simply shrug off without a care. Genn smashed Sylvanas' lantern to free her, as he said she took his son's future so he has taken hers. Most of the fighting in Legion though was between the Worgen and Undead, the other races stayed out of it. Sylvanas is the real warmonger as her past actions you seem to have a selective memory of. She does not care about her people at all. After the death of the Lich King she did not care about them at all and how her suicide would impact them, leaving them leaderless, only after she been scared shitless by the thought of her own hell waiting for her is was set her on this obsession for immortality. She cares so little for the Horde that she even has Saurfang questioning his loyalties. Why shouldn't Genn have hatred for them? They razed his city, plagued it, killed his son, kidnapped Lorna Crowley and threatened to turn her into an undead, left the Alliance for dead on the Broken Shore which caused Varian to die. Varian was just the last straw. He has plenty of reasons to draw from. You call Genn the Warmonger when it is she, Sylvanas Windrunner, that starts the whole war in BFA to begin with? Someone needs to read the definition on what warmonger means. A true Warmonger advocates for wars against other countries without any provocation, and in Genn's case hes been far more than provoked by the Undead. Having your city attacked and son murdered will do that to ya. Sylvanas started a war she wish she hadn't, trust me. Losing Undercity is just the start you see.
Good job. Meryl is not technically undead. He's so powerful of a mage that he found a way of simply not dying. He was never raised into undeath. Using the undead model for him in-game was Blizzard being a little bit lazy.
This is actually true. Meryl isn't undead, he just continues to age beyond normal means through magic. While it could be explored that it could be necromancy, it hasn't been made offical yet.
Oh wow, I never laughed so hard, this video really made my day :D For some reason it shows that it was posted on 31st of march and not 1st of april, but I guess it's because of time zones, so okay, it was still good joke for april fools.
Damn, Sylvannas is such a nice person. She is an example of leadership and kindness. All of her actions, always in pro of the horde, and while respecting her enemies is... oh wait no... she is a maniacal dictator that wanna kill everybody... sorry guys... i guess we didn't see it coming... i mean... is not like she has been betraying and murdering people ever since WC3... cough... garithos... cough....
Or was it? You think she cares about the Forsaken? Or is she just using them as pawns? If she cares about the Forsaken, why do she kill all of the disidents and non-disidents on the meeting with Anduin? Those were undead loyal to her, and undead that just wanted to leave Lordaeron to be with thier families... No my friend, Sylvannas only cares about Sylvannas. When the times come, even Nathanos will be used as a shield and be left behind to die. Mark my words! And little matters if it was 1 person, and damn that man was an asshole! But even he was honoring his word and following his part of the pact, and was just gonna leave Sylvanna retreat without a fight or anything... she murder him in cold blood, or rather ORDER Varimathras to kill him for her! She is a neutral evil character, the kind that uses others to do her dirty work. Even the forsaken, who used to worship her, are now growing unhappy with her, many wanting to leave, for they realize now they are not free...
Well, is not "the whole alliance" in that book. Is mostly some families that had a reunion with their undead relatives. Some were more happy to see their undead relatives then others, but most of them you could say were happy to re-encounter them. Also that was exactly Anduins and Calia intentions: to demonstrate that convivence was posible between humans and the undead of Lordaeron. I see Anduin like the guy that is always trying to stop the war between both factions. His thing has always trying to find and make peace. Up until recently, it was peace at all cost, and now, after the events of Legion, he is still looking for that, but with the mindset that, if the enemy won't accept it, and be hostile, he will fight back. And i see Sylvannas as the broken character, which leaves in fear. She is insecure... that's why she looks for ways to ensure her immortality. And she dosen't care what she has to do to achieve it. However, it seems that lately her goals have increased... She seems to wants to rule above everyone, by turning the whole world to undead and bind them to her will, pretty much like the Lich King. You can see that in the comic and in the book. That's her way of "making peace" and i think thats her arc now, and is clearly expressed in the cinematic "life is only pain... there is no hope" and "You have made life your enemy".
"she should've known that making the other leaders unhappy would lead her to the same end as Garrosh." Yeah, that is true... except that Cairne is realy the only leader left to opouse her? Galywix is on her side because he thinks he can profit a lot, and that is kinda true, war is always profitable... and Lor'Themar seems to be always busy in Sylvermoon, and only rarely leaves his city, also he seems to be a very political individual, that has quite the hate for the alliance and all alliance related stuff... You can see that all the time, like when you do the Quel'Delar questline, or now with the Nightborne events in Sylvermoon where Alleria shows up... I mean, is clear that Lor'Themar dosen't approve Sylvannas 100%, as he says in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid, when Sylvannas offers to raise his dead soldiers, and his tone is very very clear: Don't fucking dare touching our dead people! So she probably thinks that, as long as she dosen't mess with him, he will leave her do as she wants... As for the hate between human and undead. Yes, there are quite a lot of people that hates them and see them as monsters, but there has always been lots of npcs in SW that talks about wanting to see their familiars again. I think one in particular is an old woman that misses her husband, which is now an undead in UC. In the book, there are some people a bit hesitant of meeting their dead parents, in particular i think there was a girl that meets her dead dad, but then they reconciliate and are happy to finaly see each other. And well, in the book is clear they accept them, and there were some undead that tried to run away from Lordaeron to be with their familes.
You base your claim that Sylvanas does not care about Forsaken on that one Calia incident,so let me give you another perspective. Banshee queen herself accepted this ''reunite the families'' deal proposed by Desolate council and Alliance wonder boy. So,she agrees and then what happens? Anduin brings Calia Menthil of all people to the meeting,and she just sorta decides to show herself in front of Sylvanas. This is the older sister of a guy who basically ruined Sylvanas entire life,the guy responsible for Forsaken even existing,and she is according to some legitimate heir to throne of Lordaeron. This in a clear act or political provocation,and wars have been started in our own history for way less. Sylvanas would be in her right to basically slaughter everybody there for parading a pretender in front of her,and inciting rebellion in her own people. But if she does,she starts a war that she is not yet ready for. So she does the next best thing,and murders those that she can,without staring a war. Leaving Anduin to himself play Arthas and raise (not resurrect mind you) Calia in the light of all things. I'm not even gona go into the fact that we are discussing lore from a bad book written by Anduin fan girl ( Seriously,his bones hurt if he thinks bad things ffs). It's super easy to make Sylavanas a bad guy,super easy and also incredibly predictable and stupid
1- Killing someone because is the sister of the guy that ruined your life, even tho she has no involvement on that at all, makes you evil. 2- She agreed to the reunion for a reazon. She had already planned to kill them. It was all to extingish the fire of a probable, yet not likely, rebellion of the forsaken. As any evil dictator, she wants to keep her people in line and constantly controling them by any mean she has to. This reunion was a good way to do that. She could just argue they were gonna "betray" the forsaken, so those still loyal to her would not argue and stay on her side, and those that do know what realy happened would think it twice before thinking of fleeing. She didn't saw her until they had already shooting the arrows towards those runing away. And she just used the occasion to also kill her because she represents a big problem for her, as the legit heir to the kindom Sylvanna stoled.
Sadly, "Before the Storm" shows that she's putting her own interests above those of the Forsaken. Anduin extended an olive branch for the sake of reuniting families among the humans and undead. She had to be talked into going along with the plan by Nathanos, and in the end said that she'd never let her people have hope again. That they should all be as she is, rejected by the living and driven by hate.
Correction: Sylvanas has a great military tactician working for her. You’re absolutely correct. However, this will fall on deaf ears. Why? Because Sylvanas is interested in conquest. In today’s culture that is the ultimate sin for a leader. Historical leaders who conquered territory are vilified and their motivations for doing so pushed aside. People seem to think that the best way to be anti-colonialist is to make out that all conquerors had entirely evil/selfish intentions. The problem with that idea is that any leader who would like to remain in their position can’t act entirely selfishly. If their actions don’t benefit at least a sizeable portion of their countrymen, they will either find themselves with no power or no head.
1. No kingdom forces you to serve in their army as far as we know. 2. Nowhere does she says she wants to save her people from final death, just herself. Also even if she wanted to do that, she would need 1 Valkyrie for every forsaken? 3. The alliance doesnt want the forsaken destroyed, Anduin tried to have peace with them. It was Sylvanas that attacked her own people (even those returning to her) just so they dont spread "hope" to other forsaken.
Hard to say whether it would be only 1 val'kyr per Forsaken. Given the number required seems to increase with each additional death they're saved from. Since the first time Sylvanas dies after becoming undead due to committing suicide it only took 1 val'kyr to bring her back from the dead. But the second time it happens when Godfrey kills her it took 3 val'kyr to bring her back from the dead. Which leaves her with only 5 of the val'kyr who serve her left. However it was mentioned that she only has enough val'kyr left now to save her from one more death. Which holds the implication that her 3rd averted death will take 5 val'kyr.
unfortunately Blizzard relies too much on the Sylvanas fanboys who only like her because "undead bewbs" and so I guarantee that they will try and find a way to not kill Sylvanas off permanantly
I think its not an april joke. Its a refrence to the april joke "Garrosh did nothing wrong", but this video is much more serious and not filled with stuff like "Carny Bloodhoof" ^^
Silvanas is an excellent military leader and a leader in general. My main concern is that she is a terrible warchief, she's the face of the horde now, a untrusing, uncompromising force that cares only for their own self interests without the sugar coating to pretend they care about their enemies. Baine for example might not be as strong in coordination or military tactics but he holds values that all others care for in a leader, he himself is selfless, strong willed, confident and considerate including the fact hes trust worthy and humble. Basically Baine should be Warchief with Silvanas being his no.2, Garosh had the same idea, he knew he could manipulate sylvanas and how good she is in combat so he used her as his second dispite the banshee queen not being an orc
To be fair I feel the undead are like watership down "All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed."
Baine being faction leader would make too much sense, he's capable well liked and is actually good friends with Anduin, so it would bridge the peace between Horde and Alliance.. but then, we'd have no conflict in the game an it'd be no fun to play.
11:55 You ended up being wrong about that bud, She basically said she did feel pity for the forsaken but to her they were all just pawns/toy soldiers for her to use.
Well Koltira was technically fratinzing with the enemy (the Alliance) which could have potentially be fatal to the Horde. It was Garrosh's command to take over Gilneas. Sylvannas was simply following orders from him. *shrugs* Nice try guys.
Well Theramore was Garrosh's campaign. Sylvannas had nothing to do with it. Sylvannas didn't like Garrosh, and Baine saw Garrosh as very dangerous. If Sylvannas knew that Baine sent someone to warn Jaina about an incoming attack, she probably would have cared less. Just don't forget that Baine did this in secret. Nobody knew about it. If anybody did, word would have gotten back to Garrosh. So yeah. Nice try buddy. xD
Slyvanas never really was a “good person”...just hot. Even when she was still alive she was one of the high borne. The most arrogant and decadent of the elven race of Azeroth. These were the descendants of the power hungry Azhara...the one who brought about the sundering that laid Azeroth to ruin. Because Quel’Thalas was once part of the Alliance people tend to think of them as mystical and kind. But they’re really not. Even back in second war when the Blackrock, Stormreaver and Bleeding Hollow clans raided the elven kingdom of Quel’Thalas and took Silvermoon’s precious runestone to bolster the Horde’s power, hundreds of humans from Lordearon died helping the high borne elves to fight off the marauding orcs. And what did the elves do in appreciation? Absolutely nothing. In fact, they just sealed their borders and refused any more relations with the Alliance. Typical high borne arrogance. Unlike the honorable Night Elves. So don’t tell me either Slyvanas or her people were ever “nice” and “honorable”, even before she got turned in to a banshee. They were just pretty. And they simply got their asses kicked by the Scourge and Arthas. So sorry...but some might say they got exactly what they deserved. Slyvanas included.
Do I need to remind who ordered the killing of every one from a race ??It was garithos.clearly u have never talked to am actual night elf.tyrande calls other races especially horde and even alliance before the official joining as scum r outsider filth.and have you even heard maeiv talking.the most arrogant elves contest has clearly been won.shandris saw the spear in the battle against azshara and she knew what it was but still acted otherwise so that they would fight.i mean maybe using bfa is not the best but when the night borne asked to be part of the alliance the night eleven actually stopped it which can only be seem as horde player in night borne allied race questline.when u read the Varian comic u see it's bear mantle who abuses valeera more than her and that's talking about valeera.....
Both elves are super arrogant. And the High Born did thanked the humans, they gave them the knowledge of magic powers, although this was a military strategy, it was a huge deal to give another race more power
Sylvanas shouldn't be a warchief though because shes so determined to gain immortality i could see her betraying the horde if she had to as shes not as loyal to the horde as someone like thrall.
Why should she be loyal to the Horde? They hate her? It is a alliance of necessity nothing more. Even is she gained immortality, she knows she still needs the Horde. She saw what happens when you turn against the Alliance AND the Horde. She saw how that ended for Garrosh, she isn't that stupid to think that she would fair better.
I don't think she would pull a garrosh that's to repetitive and shes not trying to conquer like garrosh but maybe some type of betrayal to benefit herself behind the rest of the leaders backs, either that or they change her motive in the story line. I guess we will find out what happens in BFA.
Imaran except in a warcheif position they must take the horde first and foremost it why thrall was the best warcheif he always look out for the horde as a whole
I completely agree with you. What people seem to keep forgetting is that the Horde itself has changed too. In the beginning, their picture was painted as to be "noble savages" in contrast to the fairly typical human/elf-fantasy portrayed by the Alliance. But years of story, changing writers and a changing world also shaped their leaders and the people in power, who are now different to the Horde mere ten years ago. It's still about honour, but more so about survival. Forsaken can't just pop out new babies and we are not mere mortals. The veil that separates life and death is thin and seethrough.
I agree with a lot of what you said here in the video but I just hate how many sylvanas fanboys try to write off her wrongdoings as nothing major or even morally good because she's their waifu. Blindly making excuses for her doing bad things is doing a disservice to her character which is supposed to be morally questionable.
it happened in a comic, she planned to have them both assasinated in an acto of betrayal with the intention of raising them both as her undead puppets. Yeah, Sylvanas is such a nice guy.
Joe HYPERLUL. She did't do it tho and tbh Vereesa is the ''bad dude'' for telling lies about sylvanas to Alleria in the first place when it actually was Vereesa that betrayed Sylvanas in War crimes.
She DID want to bomb theramore tho. She only disagreed with the timing. Or soemthing along those lines. I'm not the biggest fan of sylvanas but I do respect her as a leader. It takes some serious balls to lead an entire faction in the face of them all wanting you dead.
This is true. He completely left that part out as he was fanboying over her, glossing over the many bad sides to her actions, or simply ignoring them entirely.
Idk my dude, the orcs kinda did invade the planet to try and take it over, only to lose, and then stake claim to the planet as their new home that they were just trying to invade. I'd be pretty hostile to people who just showed up on my planet one day trying to kill me then try to make their home here too. I'd be even more hostile if they decided to bomb innocents in a town run by someone who was just trying to bring peace between the warring factions. Either way, still doesn't change the fact that Sylvanas DID want to go through with it, she just didn't agree with the timing.
In my eyes, Sylvanis is more of a mother to the forsaken than a leader. she did not desire the burden she carries at first. But over time. she has earned every bit of the honor it has given her. and she will fight to the last and final breath to achieve the true inner victory she so desires for her and that of her family.
Before the Storm ruins this theory entirely. It shows Sylvanas as selfish, only interested in the undead as her slaves who at the whiff of independence she will happily execute. The sooner she is killed off the better, it had been proven that the one thing I thought she cared about in undeath, she actually doesn't.
Can I ask you something...who did the Humans meet in Before the Storm? Were they freshly raised Forsaken, completely green and with no history with the Forsaken? Or were they veterans, long time members who chose and stuck beside Sylvanas for years and a vast number of campaigns? If you answered A, I’m afraid you haven’t been paying attention. The meet up in Before the Storm was between Forsaken who have been raised for some time and chose to follow Sylvanas loyally all that time. In that time, they lived through quite a few events and have details about Forsaken life that is rather sensitive, especially if you have enemies looking for any weakness to exterminate you. What happened at the meet up was basically a few high ranking Forsaken blatantly defecting, which is something we like to call TREASON. Even if all of them weren’t going to defect, even if it was one or two, that is still a lot of info and risk to just allow to walk away. In the real world treason is often rewarded with death by the country they betrayed because information is far more powerful and dangerous than any virus. Sylvanas really has every reason to act swiftly and lethally. The fact that she didn’t attack one human shows that she was simply dealing with a serious breach in security, rather than just doing something bad. If she really wanted to be evil, she’d have killed everyone there. Anduin was RIGHT THERE. And she didn’t touch him.
ClayXros She killed those who have been loyal to her too, cause she needs only those Forsaken who are broken and bitter. So it was way more then just a breach in security,she basiclly killed off every one who havent matched her standarts of "loyal'.
Good thing this is an april fools joke. Because slyvanas only cares about herself not dying. She just sees the rest of the horde as jer arrors in her quiver. Like she thought of the high elves that she threw at arthas in wc3.
YOU ARE ALL NOTHING REMEMBER ? including the alliance too and she don't need to cheat because you saw what happened to saurfang before she use that dark magic she kick his ass in 2 second
In all honesty, I've really liked Sylvanas since I first started playing WoW during the tail end of WotLK. I wanted her to be Warchief instead of Garrosh. Despite the fact that A LOT of her choices in BfA utterly threw me, I also wasn't aware of key points this video explained. She's a complex and tragic character. I mean think about all the death and torment Death Knight Arthas put her through on top of all the agony she goes through keeping her people that choose to follow her safe. THAT'S a tall order for anybody. So yeah. Sylvanas has zero qualms with being a villain. To which I say "it's fitting and she gonna rain Hell on whoever decides to be a pain in the ass."
First character I made was a undead mage and I was so happy to meet my faction leader. As I learned more about her and what she endured, she became my fav leader. I helded her and Vol'jin as my favorites, but saddly Vol'jin is one with da voodoo man now.
Hirumaredx, I Don’t think you read “Before the Storm” before making this video. Anduin was attempting to broker a peace between the humans and forsaken, to which Slyvannis sabotaged. Starting a war with the Alliance puts her people in more danger. She ruined the best chance she had for peace. So, I don’t agree that she “does bad things because she has to” even before the burning.
and Illidan was a male and as a result we fight him but Sylvanas has tits and so of coarse we cant kill her, even tho she's clearly Hitler with tit's. Dont wanna make all the Sylvanas fanboys like hirumex here throw a hissy-fit at having to kill their undead waifu
