Why The 2007 Citroen C5 is WAY BETTER Than You Think 

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My dad had one of these when they came out. The 3.0L V6 - Sedan. It really gave off UFO vibes being fully spec'd (esp. with the xenons). Was a joy to ride in. Most confortable ride ever.

The fixed steering-wheel boss isn't just for "quirkiness". It's so that a large, square air-bag can be fitted to boost driver safety, rather than a small round less-effective one found on every other car. Sadly, like with a lot of fantastic Citroen features of yore, motoring writers canned it and the bean-counters at Peugeot dumped it, just like the hydractive suspension.

I grew up with Peugeot and Citroen wagons. Including the safari with the hydraulic suspension. They’re brilliant

Love the C5, very nice car, always wanted a C6 personally

i've always loved these so much. styling, interiors, amazing. as a car to live with everyday, everything i look for in a car. to me one of the most beautiful cars ever made.

My dad had one of these as a work lease for three years and I learned to drive on it, lovely car.

Bad news is: Citroen is very bad with parts supply, as soon as the cars run out of production. If you buy one, be prepared to source the parts yourself. I'm driving a 1998 Citroen XM for 10 years now. I can't remember that I ever brought my car to a garage and just got it back the next day. It's always like this: 1.: bring car to garage. 2.: get a phonecall that part xy is unavailable 3.: find the part myself 4.: send it to the garage 5.: get my car back. It's been like that from day one for me. Also, don't expect a citroen main dealer to know how to repair the hydractive suspension. Citroen stopped making them, and most dealers have no clue anymore. There still are some specialized garages, but you need to find them.

The 59 plate exclusive I had from new was the best car I ever had.Lincolnshire to Cornwall, 60mpg, in quiet comfort. The part leather seats I found perfect. If I win the lottery I will treat myself to another...plus a DS6 and 2cv to play with.

My '08 C5 is still going with 260,000 miles on the clock. I've done all those miles and have the 2litre diesel. It's a beast!

Drove 200 000+ kms with 2,0 HDi A 2009. Quality ride without major issues.

I've had my eye on one of these for a long time! Thank you for highlighting the pros of these.

In used cars topics, the reliability chapter is a must.

Astonishing car! What a surprise pick too! Thank you, just bought one 3.0 Hdi bi turbo diesel! Allarounder and eating km’s car!

I remember having an old 1.9 diesel N/A Citroen BX. The hydro-pneumatic suspension on that, while comfortable, was terrifying at speeds over 50mph; you could barely feel potholes or speed humps, however.

It was less reliable and less roomy than the first gen C5, but definitely more attractive, luxurious and quiet than the first, at least, in the experience of my family. Both engines were bulletproof (2.0L diesels) the first gen racking up 600k kms and the second gen racking up 400k before getting traded in, the problems were electronics and the second gen had to have the entire climate unit replaced, ouch. I think I miss the first gen more than the second, but that might just be nostalgia.

Love these more "every day car" reviews 😊 It is nice to see a review and think: hmmm... perhaps I should get one of these 🤔

I really wanted one of these as a second car (I’m an old Citroen fanboy whose dad had a GS and BX and I once had an XM company car). Test drove a low mileage supposedly good example. Nice design, drove well in a characteristically wafting Citroen way (proper Citroen suspension) but… The finish was tacky and the durability really poor - eg colour coming off all the grab handles, scuffed surfaces on a 50k miles car. It had an impressive service history with all the bills but… wow, the bills - this car had had stuff replaced at 40k miles that most cars wouldn’t get near in 60k. So thanks but no thanks. I bought an old Lexus - drives like an old fashioned Merc (that’s a good thing) with a better interior, is bullet proof and cheap to maintain.

I think I have had most the hydropnumatic Citroen diesel estates starting with the CX in the '80s They were amazing cars for their time. There was a saying that if you drove one for half an hour you would never want to drive one again, more than half an hour and you would never want to drive anything else, I fell into the latter category. The last one the CX25 DTR Turbo 2 (with intercooler) did 0-60 in about 10 seconds and 120mph all at 3600 rpm and still managed 50+ mpg on the motorway, I didn't aspire to one of those they were to new. The last turbo one had 100,000k on it when I bought it and I did another 150,000+. I ran them for about 10 years and when they started going rusty then switched to the XM estates which were good but not in the same class as the CX. I didn't care much for the early C5, my son said that the interior looked as though it had been designed b 'Palitoy'. I had a couple but wasn't very impressed so I changed my allegiance to the 2.0 406 diesel estate which I consider to be probably the best car Peugeot made, I ran those for about 10 years also. I now have 2 of the later C5 X7 2.0 Hdi estates only this time with springs and I think the low speed ride is better than the hydropnumatics and the fuel consumption excellent at 60 mpg + on the motorway although I don't drive very fast. They are not as reliable or easy to work on as the 406 but I am still managing to maintain them (at 84) they are very comfortable though. Comfort, ride and economy are my primary requisites and I don't think there is another car to match them - unless you know better.

I am a fan of old Peugeots and Citroens beautiful cars imo

its ride comfort beats anything on coil sorings and that's important for a uk daily. if you had to commute on the m25 you would rather be in this than a 5 series 95% of the time.

I think french cars are often overlooked.

my dad had this car its awesome

Hey Jay loved this video, its great seeing some cars my first new car was, wait for it a Citroen AX 1.4 diesel way back in the 90's not sure why but loved that little car

Still wondering why many stock images are of chilean cars, still proud tho, as a chilean man I like it.

Looks like a nice car but I've always found that French cars, particularly PSA stuff of this era to suffer with dodgy electric gremlins. My dad had a 406 which would only occasionally allow you to open the windows and on occasion they would just open on their own even with the car parked up and locked. Sometimes the speedo would just drop to zero whilst driving and then come back to life a few miles later. Had a colleague who had fun with an electric folding hard top on a 307CC which on occasion would only get half way and then refuse to respond at all. I've had Ford's and Vauxhalls of the same era and never had issues with electrics at all.

I had 2 of these as a company car, sadly only the 1.6 diesel and not with air suspension (cars are heavily taxed in Belgium) but I loved the cars nonetheless. I made many trips to the south of France with them. No more Citroën wagons so I'm now in a Peugeot 508.

That was not the last traditional touring/estate version, the following C5 X7 gen III had estate versions and a range of better engines. I have 2012 Saloon 2.0 HDi 163bHp, the 'facelift' version.

U can purchase these Citroens & puegeots for peanuts with scrap yards full of parts here in the UK so why not Indulge and once acquired u want look back ..

The engine being a hdi 16 is a 1.6l, Sir

This was really well presented, fair play for putting the research into it. I never thought I'd thoroughly enjoy a review of a French sh*tbox 😂👌

last real Citroen. Drove it 6 Years and still miss some features.

How weird bought one about 2 weeks ago for a absolutely stupid cheap price 225k on the clock 😂😂

Nice design

V6 diesel C5 is the best car in the world

Didn’t Citroen have to replace the rear axles due to high tyre wear?

Citroen and Peugeot has to be always Diesel.. now question - is this a reliable car or does it break a lot? Thx

Had an 09 plate one of these. I loved it until it blew a turbo and couldn’t afford to get it fixed 😢

Citroën has chosen a more fun design style recently, probably looking to appeal to younger audiences and city use like their electric Ami. In my opinion this was their last true showing of French style, a big comfortable, well designed palace on wheels

Good to see another French shed on the channel, much more interesting that all those boring old Ferraris.

The USA is sorely lacking in wagons.

My 2nd Gen C5 has done 275,000 km & still going strong. Very reliable.

I love this generation of C5, I've always been a lover of estate cars. I have a MK1 Peugeot 508 SW, with the 2.0 HDi like seen in this, they look very similar actually, although mine is from 2013. It's a great car, roomy, and luxurious.

Had one of these for the wife in 2007-2009, she had come from a Range Rover and was spitting feathers at the idea of driving the C5.. and you know what, she loved the Citroen.. she liked it even more than the E-class she had afterwards. Hugely underrated

my old IT teacher has one with the hydropneumatic suspension. I love his decision to drive that and keep it in his collection, especially because, well, the Citroen C5 is probably one of the most criminally underrated cars of it's size class.

Massively underrated, and it's a real shame that estates fell out of fashion so hard!

I had one of these and I can honestly say it was one of the best cars I ever owned. It was very long and sometimes parking it was a bit of a problem finding a space big enough but the ride quality made up for that. Unfortunately my car was written off and i could not find another to replace it.

Damn Jay, you've just pushed the prices of these up as I've been trying to find a good deal on a hydro equipped version 😂

_"...if it breaks, it can be expensive to fix."_ Sorry, I have to correct that; WHEN it breaks. And it will. I had a 2008 C5 Exclusive saloon, which I bought in 2013 with 50,000 miles on it. It was silver like the one in the this video, immaculate inside and out, and was absolutely gorgeous. It was a joy to drive; a lot of the driving I did was over fairly decent distances, and the C5 was like surfing along on a cushion of air, and inside the cabin was silent, even at higher speeds. From a driving perspective, you'd be hard pressed to find another car that would beat it for sheer comfort. Leather interior, extremely comfortable seats, and I absolutely loved it, and at just under 6ft tall I still found it really spacious. Unfortunately, it didn't love me back... Soon after I bought it, the wing mirrors began doing strange things, like not folding back properly when locking the car, or folding out too far when unlocking it. About eight months after I bought it, it failed an MOT on the steering rack. After making inquiries I found that the fault (leaking seals) was one that was common to the model. I contacted Citroen to ask whether they would consider addressing it given that the steering rack was a factory fitted item and the fault was well known. They refused. I asked how much a new steering rack would be and was informed that because it was part of the hydrolastic suspension, a new unit would be....almost £1700. Luckily, a business down south did reconditioned units, so I was able to pick one of those up for around a quarter of that price. One of the suspension rams failed. That was almost £600 to buy. Three tyre pressure sensors (the valves themselves) failed, they were £150 a pop to have fitted and reprogrammed to the car. The driver side controller for the air conditioning began working intermittently; you could spin the knob and it would do absolutely nothing one minute, and then work fine the next. Then the sensors for the suspension began playing up, which necessitated replacing those. Not a fun drive when your car has jacked itself up about 3ft off the deck and handling like a blancmange on wheels, quite literally. Then the suspension would continually adjust itself while the car was parked (I could look out of my window and watch it moving) which depending on cold the weather conditions were and how frequently it did it, would run the battery down. Occasionally the suspension would also refuse to raise when adjusted to its lowest point. Periodically, the car would throw up weird codes which when investigated turned out not to be true at all, and the sensors were all checked and found to be ok. The suspension fluid reservoir burst. Twice. Inside, the rubber coating began to peel itself off of the controls on the steering wheel. The driver seat heating and massage functions failed early on, followed by the electric seat position mechanism deciding one day to eat the threads on the frame under the seat. Consulting Citroen for this, I found that not only was this tiny little part proprietary to the car (like the vast majority of the parts I had to replace in the time I had it, and rarer than rocking horse shit), but that it couldn't be bought without purchasing the whole mechanism. Which was only available from Citroen. At over £800. Other faults occurred during the ten years I owned it, so much so that I became very good friends with the receptionist of the garage I used to get it repaired in its last few years! But no matter which garage I went to, they would inform me of how supremely difficult it was to find parts for the car in the UK, often needing to order them in from France. Finally, in one last act of defiance it decided to boil itself to death on the motorway while neglecting to inform me of the fact it was doing so via the numerous sensors or gauges in the car, causing me to cruise to a surprising steam-enveloped halt on the hard shoulder. The car had done just over 96,000 miles, and had been totally babied the entire time I had it. I owned a 2002 C5 before this one, which compared to this mongrel was an absolute dream; it ran perfectly, the boot was big enough to fit a small semi-detached house, it wasn't covered with sensors for every teeny little function, and it didn't require a bank loan every time it needed repaired. So in summary, if you're planning on buying a C5 Exclusive from this era, either *DON'T DO IT!!!* , or make sure you have a lot of money tucked away somewhere. You'll need to, just to keep it on the road.

I have one of these, had it for 4 years now and it moved me and all of my stuff from the UK to Finland, it's never missed a beat. Amazingly underrated car

That is quite handsome estate, the proportions and wide grille/badge design works really, really well. And that dash board looks really funky. The orange and white on black is a look I like. I can understand the tune on the engine, but yeah, I never understand why people put big exhausts on diesels (Usually Seat's in my experience). I can imagine it's a really good luxury mover, between the suspension and the double-glazing, I can imagine it's a really relaxing car to drive. And it's a bit different, and "a bit different" is always interesting.

Double glazed glass and then you do that to the exhaust. Ay caramba

My dad had a 1st gen C5 and I'm yet to find a car that covers distance better. A genuine magic carpet ride, only downside was that it had the turning circle of an oil tanker. Always fun to watch it try to level itself if you parked it on a bit of a slope, it'd quietly shuffle around on the hydraulics for a good half hour, it was sort of like watching a big dog trying to lie down for the night

This generation C5 estate was quite popular here en Denmark. You still see quite a few of them on the road. Good cars

Amazing cars. Used to work for Citroen. Loved them when they were new and really wanted one. We also had a black and yellow high powered DS3 I lusted after. I did go in the Sales Manager's C6 and have wanted one ever since. Quite like the C3 Picasso for simple quirky motoring 😊

Those are genuine C5 19" alloys, although obviously refurbished and painted black. I own a 2010 3.0 HDI biturbo limo in top spec (240 bhp, optimized to 270, xenon lights which turn with the steering wheel, 19" alloys, extended leather package - perforated leather seats with white inserts, leather dash and central console, alcantara roof and pillars, nav...) It's a decent everyday car, and awesome highway cruiser. Its not fast from 0-60, but it pulls really, really well from 90-130. I live in Croatia, so it gets its share of 120+ on a highway few times per month. Things that I don't like are squeaky door handles, you don't have any lights on the dash which indicate that your seat heating is on, the audio system is a bit sluggish when you switch between media. But, all in all, it's a decent car which looks good even today. Suspension is more on the soft side and it needs some getting used to, sport mode really is firmer, but it won't turn the car into a sport sedan.

Sometimes I regret I never bought one. A couple of years ago I was very close to buying a V6 diesel wagon. But in the end I got a very good offer for a Laguna 3 GT. Also a weird, quirky thing with all wheel steering.

I miss when cars were cars not suvs.

I am British, but live in France, and have done so for twenty odd years. I had one of those cars. The ride is best ever! Really! Incredible, smooth and unbelievable on uneven roads. It also had a button to press if you wanted to raise the height, if for example there was a flooded road. I did use that on a few occasions. A wonderful addition. My only concern is that it manifested an electrical problem. When it got hot, it would not start again, until it had cooled down. Which meant, that if you drove for an hour to go to a store, and were in there for ten minutes, you would either have to wait for an hour, or open the bonnet and hope for the best. It would start if you were on a hill. Roll it down, put it in second gear, and when you reached a certain speed, lift the clutch pedal. Not always the best option. I went to the Citroen garage where it came from, and the mechanic’s answer was funny. ‘You either put up with it, or take it to the scrap yard. I am not going to take your money, because I could look for a week and never find the problem. That is just how electrics are with some French cars. C’est la vie.’ At least he was honest. Other than that it was a great car to drive.

The 2007 Citroen C5 was the best of the recent iterations of Citroen because it looked very much like a C6...

I have owned a 2010 C5 Tourer since 2015. Only the E class with airmatic can replace it. I often think it's not that comfortable, but then I drive some other car for a while and I'm back in love with mine. Such a shame everybody wants a sport suspension these days, so there wasn't enough market to continue the hydropneumatic system. I love the fact this car floats like a boat, slowly reacting to whatever is happening on the road. Body-roll? Why not! I'm not racing anyone. Please disconnect me from the road, my mighty Citroen. C5X with its tiny boot is a joke. Nice looking, but so impractical. Not for me.

That model was produced from 2008 to 2017, can't be 2007.

Hacked apart exhaust sounds like they probably had the dpf gutted when they got it remapped the emissions is what kills modern diesel cars reliability especially if your not always doing long journeys they get blocked if they don't get chance to regen it also helps the engine breath better and a bit better mpg because its not having to dump excess fuel during regen to get the dpf hot

Worth mentioning is the dual zone air con not only had separate temperature controls, but each zone had its own directional controls. Brilliant feature!

My normal daily is a slightly later one of these and I absolutely love it. I've had it for many years and hope to keep it for many more. I bought it with about 50k on the clock and it's just coming up to 130k now. It's never let me down, nothing has fallen off or gone wrong, nothing squeaks or rattles, and it's been cheap to fuel, insure and service. As relaxing as a nice warm bath. Marvellous.

I was compelled to comment on this, since for once someone is singing well articulated high praise for something that I actually own. I am writing from Finland and I have that "thing" for Saab and Volvo we hold here so dearly, but during the last 10 years or so I've grown quite fond of having a Citroën as my daily driver. Having owned quite a few of them, I think the X7 ranks easily among my favourites: XM 21TD, BX GTi and Xantia 16v. It probably won't become a classic, but it's the last of its kind - and IMO much better than its predecessor (which for some reason felt like a glorified golf cart) or even the Peugeot 508 SW: the ride height was too low, you couldn't see anything at all except maybe the sky, there were some annoying design flaws and it constantly felt like it was falling apart. I can sense none of those problems with the C5. It's a surprisingly no-nonsense car from a manufacturer who's been obsessed with overall flamboyance to the point of two near-bankruptcies! They were pretty quiet about the petrol engines here as well. I suppose that's somewhat due to the basic 16v engines being already out-of-date and nothing special to begin with, but moreover to the numerous faults of the THP engine. Compared to that contraption, the good old oil squirting XU seems like a masterpiece. So unless it's all about getting a C5 with a V6, the only logical choice is HDi. I might've chosen the 1.6 liter option if it included the hydractive as well, because the lower fuel consumption and smaller emissions make it much less expensive, but the 2.0 with that Aisin 6-speed are what the C5 is all about: a really easy and enjoyable workhorse. Nothing too fancy, but nothing compares 2 it either.

I used one for three years as a taxi. Grafted it hard and in all weather. The only complaint was parts costs. Never let me down. Replaced with a C-class Merc estate, the Citroen C5 was the better car.

Mate, no one has mentioned this fab car at all. Our company car is one of these (2015 with the hydro suspension), 2.0 litre turbo. Gosh it's amazing, especially on long trips, really sooo smooth, and so economical, and quick. Never had one fault with it. The passengers say "so quiet and smooth". I think we'll keep it for years (isn't that actually being more "green"?). Hello from Melbourne

My fathers first company car was a Second gen C5 and the whole family loved the comfort. The seats did invite a bit to much slide tho 😅 But as a kid I used to fall to sleep while looking at the night stars from the panorama window. My uncle has had both gens with the last one still being used for his family's roadtrips and with over 310 000km it's still going strong 😃

That's pure boyracer/chav spec with the obligatory windscreen strip/gell plates/black wheels and wind deflectors 😂

Had one, fantastic car to drive, supremely comfortable and refined. Dreadful reliability and expensive repairs though sadly.

Rather sad that owner kinda ruined it with 19 inch alloys and that tailpipe.

That you aren’t sponsored by “auto trader” is ridiculous given that me and probably everyone else who starts watching this immediately goes to find out how much they can get one for.??

Excellent vehicle. I own a 2008 C5 Tourer (as the call the estate here in the Netherlands) since 2017, also 2.0 HDi in Exclusive-trim but manual gearbox. Ideal for long-distance highway-cruising and that's what I use the car for most of the time. Twisty country roads it doesn't like so much. Reliable engine, no problems with French electrics so far. My next car will probably be the C5 X because I just like big comfy Citroëns.

This is proper motoring. Can't imagine why you'd want a SUV over this

About 3 years ago I went looking for a C5 as I had been fascinated by Citroën hydraulic suspension. I found a Comfort spec 2011 model with the 2l diesel with 147000 km. I figured if I got 3 years out of it, I'd be happy. Now, I have no idea what I would get to replace it. 206000 kn now. I have a great Citroën mechanic and I do routine servicing. It's not difficult but you NEVER get under a hydraulic Citroën without chassis stands. It's an event when I see another C5 on my commute here in Sydney, Australia.

Those black badges and wheels don’t look great. I can never understand why people modify their cars cosmetically as it just makes them look cheap. Always keep things standard.

In my opinion, the C5 is the last 'proper' Citröen. It's sad to see the way that French manufacturers have gone (well, I do like the style of the current 508, but I don't like the small engines).

THANKS FOR FEATURING MY C5 ON THE CHANNEL! MY NEW PROJECT CAR IS BEING REVEALED THIS SUNDAY! IM SURE YOU'LL FEATURE THAT ON YOUR CHANNEL DOWN THE LINE 🎥 MANY THANKS 👌

my mate (friend) has one, 1.6HDI automatic estate & in my own opinion, it is rubbish. the gear change is sluggish, its pick up is poor. i had a 1.4 8v fiat punto with 67hp so it was ridiculously slow but still beat his C5. don’t get me wrong, good looking car? yes! just not my cup of tea

Let’s be clear and simple: This, is most underrated car of the last decade. End of story. And thanks for sharing that!

I'am confused, an unapologetically British and outspoken motoring journalist reviewing a French car and he doesn't insult the 'Frogs' at every turn?

I have to admit, i did consider one of these, with the v6 obviously, as my first car. I do like the look alot! For the highway driving i do it would be absolutely lovely. Its a bit heavy though so road tax would be a bit too much for me. Edit: ******** james! Now im browsing the classifieds for one!

Can you also review a car you absolutely despise? I'd like to hear you vent about a car instead of being nice and positive

"BLAND"...if you need to refer to "Bland" just look closely at the New HONDA ZR-V, what on this Earth was their Design Teams brief...probably..."let's see what we can get away with"...unbelievable. SO...having enjoyed Honda for well over 22 years of trouble free Motoring I'm now looking at the '24 Citroën C5x....simply outstanding. Enjoy life..G.A.R.

01:12 “ … sixteen years later … “ another Citroën, the Xantia is now 31 years old and still looks modern.

The 3.0l V6 diesel remapped with Bluespark goes like the clappers.....well over 500Nm of torque, 221kW (almost 300hp)....that's the middle Bluespark setting, ie: better fuel economy, better power.

That can't be 2007, because the new generation C5 didn't come until 2008 February --> (WIKIPEDIA : "It was launched in February 2008, with the estate version following in May 2008" )

I had one of these and it was lovely. Sufficiently powerful, supremely comfortable and a bit quirky. Loved it

The design has hardly aged. Pretty impressive.

Love your car reviews, you review our childhood hero cars with honesty and vigour keep up the good work we will keep watching.

I think it’s a good looking car. Germanic with a slight hint of french flair

Hey, a Citroen C5. Even when all the magazines saying that C5 is not a pleasant drive and all that, I always wanted a C5 because it's such a unique-looking thing, not another po-faced German saloon.

I had a 2010 3l sedan exclusive. Best car I've ever owned! Traded it in for a new Mercedes E-class because of the diesel becoming illegal to drive in many european cities. The Merc has lot of fancy new tech the C5 didn't, but that ride! I really, really miss that car! :-/

This is a superb car for long distance driving , quick enough and all the comforts one would need while being pretty economical. But you missed out on showing the low rider mode. :P My example is not quite as nice specced and a little beat up cosmetically but it’s still beautiful each time I look at it. Everything is so well thought out especially for the time. The easy to reach/use cruise control on the steering wheel, the automatic wipers which also turn on the lights each time it rains and the night drive mode which blacks out anything except the speedometer and is easily accessible via one button press on the steering wheel. I love driving it, I even love the sound, haha.

Don’t get me wrong, but I own Citroen 2008year, 2.2 hdi 170 hp and honestly it’s a trash car… we change every single thing in that car, except engine… hydraulic suspension die 3 time, 3 time new suspension pump, heat seat die, amortisation die also, clutch also, gearbox also… radiator die also… we hate the day when we buy it… also now car hit 3000 rpm and lose power, go in limbo… and no one don’t know why that happens… I will Never again buy Citroen ever again

The last bastion of hydro active. Glorious.

My dad had a 3.0HDi V6 one of these. Mapped to over 300bhp was an absolute rocket ship. Never really had an issue with it and clocked up over 200k. He had a previous gen ES9 V6 one ugly green but was a right little sleeper back in the day. Such a shame they discontinued it. Not as good as mum’s Xantia Activa tho which we believe has been condemned😭

I have a 3.0 HDI Tourer By Carlsson, so it has around 300bhp, I am a "boy racer" with it haha

I've owned lots of C5s, big problem with this version is that I couldn't get in or out of it. A lot lower than than the previous car which shows on your video by the height of the side windows. This has a knock on effect on the cargo volume of the estate, junk that would fit in the earlier models won't fit in this. Still a great car though and probably the the nicest way to get from A to B. I solved the access problem with a Xsara Picasso automatic, walk in, sit down and go - also much better than you might think although I think C5 V6 petrol might have been more economical on long runs.