Ezra bridger: "general what were the separatist fighting for?" Kalani: according to my programming, freedom from the tyranny of the republic." Ezra: "fighting tyranny sounds like the empire has always been your enemy." Kalani: "you are against the empire, i am against the republic, but now the republic has become the empire, i accept your logic we are the same side."
It was all gray...the whole war was nothing but a giant trap, a Game who only player was Palpatine...the only way everyone could have won was to drop all their weapons and stop fighting. It's like Ezra said: "the war was never meant to be won, no matter how hard either side tried you couldn't."
I always found the Senate really dumb and gullible not a single one of them questioned how Palpatine survived an attack from Mace Windu and other masters with Windu being the second most powerful Jedi and a hardened war general who dominated the battlefield. No one asked how he was able to defend himself so well until Anakin arrived. Then what's even dumber is that they don't label Sith as illegals even though they know for a fact the sith are always the reason the republic suffers in some way over thousands of years. It bothers me they're so incompetent.
pretty much. people that saw rebels all the way through or saw some of the problems in the Republic from some of the highlight episodes on the topic probably realized it, i am one of those, just like the whole Empire/Rebels thing where people needed to see goodish imps and bad rebels to believe that they weren't all one way, where it always made sense that not everyone could be as noble as Luke and Leia's group.
This episode is the perfect description of wars. Sometimes, there's no real good option to root for. The clones were cloned to "defend" the Republic, but also to create the Empire. The Separatists wanted independence, but didn't have leaders who cared about the innocent people that just wanted to live in peace. Both sides existed to be destroyed, and their wars were for nothing but death. Death of freedom, people, and ultimately, public opinion and burnt bridges with planets that we get brief mentions about after the formation of the New Republic
People mostly think of ww2 when they think of war. Where there is an obvious evil faction that has to lose. When it’s usually more like ww1 where both sides are greedy and screw over their allies for victory
Clone Wars did this so well. Starts off easy, black and white. Ends off deeply gray. "Both sides existed to be destroyed" Exactly this. The Empire could not have happened without the absolute corruption of the Republic
Not only was it an amazing Episode, but it was Visually so good. The Scene where the tank was shooting at Crosshair and the dirt was just raining over him. Its so good. Also, the Little horror type scene where the droidikas were rolling round was amazing as well
I think the reason crosshair episodes work so well is because this is what people truly want out of the bad batch, an exploration of the ride of the empire and clones after order 66. I still wish they didn’t make Cody turn so early tho
Even though the clones were the "bad guys", I think Crosshair was the only clone who remained to the empire of his own free will. Cody betrayed Kenobi because he was brainwashed by those inhibitor chips. Episode 3 of the bad batch season 2 shows that Cody's chip had diminished it's effects. He'd shown significant signs of free will compared to when Palpateen ordered him to execute order 66.
I think you are wrong. Clones are indoctrinated since Birth to 'follow orders without question', to the vast majority the empire and Republic are the same thing, infact they would like the more militarised empire more as it mirrors their own background more. Only a handful of clones will have had sufficient interaction with jedi to actually get past their childhood and upbringing and the he at indoctrination thereof, and even then only with compassionate jedi like plo koon or obi wan. Its a minority clones that should go AWOL after the chips effects diminish, mostly those in command positions.
@@tornn8847, well, pretty much none of the ones that we see in the show. For the men of the 501st, 212th, 104th, 327th, and the other major units we see, yeah, only a small number of clones would've followed Order 66 without the inhibitor chip, because they were led by Jedi like Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, and Plo Koon for the better part of 3 years. But Jedi like them were really the exception, not the rule. What about clones who regularly served under Jedi who actively resented and despised them, like Pong Krell or Quinlan Vos? What about those who served under Jedi who weren't as hostile, but distant and seemingly uncaring, like Luminara Unduli, or even Ki-Adi Mundi? Those were the sorts of Jedi most clones served under, and after spending 3 years fighting in horrible conditions with little RnR while serving under generals who either don't seem to care about you or actively despise you? I'd bet most clones wouldn't have needed an inhibitor chip to convince them to kill the Jedi. The clones had it f*cking rough during the war, I wouldn't be surprised if most of them were jumping at the opportunity to kill their Jedi officers.
Honestly, I'll never favor the inhibitor chip retcon. I preferred the old way where it was a near irresistible biological compulsion without any sort of trance state. Their body carried out the order even if they did want to while they were fully conscious of their actions. Though most were completely fine with with any order because of their biological programming and because they had faced mental condition since birth. I remember one comic where some clones were talking with their Jedi, received Order 66, promptly blasted him, and just shrugged it off because it was a direct order. Much to the horror of a civilian child the clones had befriended.
Yeah the original Clone Wars multimedia project handled clones way better, staying more in line to what was seen in the movies and creating less genetically engineered clone types closer to Jango for stories that required clone individualism and the ability to question orders. 2005 Battlefront 2 campaign was a great example of how the regular clones didn't need chips.
I think people find it easier to pick sides in conventional wars and the CIS at least did have a functional state with a functional government and actually held territory. The CIS cause can be seen to be more justified, wanting to leave a corrupt government that is ignoring their issues while the Rebellion just wants to destroy their current government with a somewhat unified cause to reestablish the very same corrupt system that brought the Empire into existence. As we can see in limited scope in the sequel films, the government created postwar is incredibly weak and didn't even attempt to confront the First Order. The CIS wanted to simply co-exist while the Rebellion is for total replacement of the Empire. Maybe the droid army also plays a bit into it too, at the end of the day, the majority of soldiers dying were manufactured while everyone dying during the Galactic Civil War were conventionally born, had families, etc.
I loved seeing the CIS again and finally as a post Clone Wars hold out. I hope we see more in the future, and see how they help or disagree with the rebel alliance.
I was always confused why people were shocked or expected more clones to defy the chips. Rex doing it was a huge deal. Almost every clone enjoyed or didn't mind killing the Jedi and this was never hidden. Yes Cody eventually goes AWOL but that was after order 66. A clone not killing their Jedi commander was almost unheard of
This is why Legends Order 66 was way better. The Clones were just more loyal to the Republic and Supreme Chancellor rather than the Jedi. So of course when the get the call the Jedi are traitors, no hesitation. Sure many felt SOME guilt afterwards, and yes some went AWOL, but their indoctrination made it so they moved on pretty quicky.
@@connorbennett1517 disagree, in legends the clones are completely free-thinking soldiers like in CW. Yes they were breed to be loyal and all that, but they were still “normal”. So, soldiers turning on their commanders that have saved them time and time again, and whom they have served for 3.5 years, because of one call, no hesitation whatsoever (yes, some guilt, but no hesitation) is just so unrealistic. CW let us know clones personally, as individuals; and most got relatively along with their Jedi commanders, so just straight up killing them is not normal, which is where taking away their free will makes more sense.
What the hell are you talking about? The Canonically, the Clones loved the Jedi. Fives called them their best friends. They were the ones who pushed for the Clones to play around with individuality. When they say Pong Krell “isn’t like other Jedi” that is framed as a bad thing. Stop taking all of your opinions from fanfiction.
As the opening crawl of Episode III states: "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere." Both the CIS and the Republic believed they were fighting for something noble. The CIS wanted to break away from a system they saw as irredeemably corrupt and ineffective, while the Republic wanted to preserve the order that had maintained galactic stability for centuries. The problem is that, in both cases, the people who held actual power were monsters looking to advance their own interests at the expense of millions of innocent lives. And for the record, the Republic's attack on Geonosis was not "unprovoked". The Geonosians had illegally arrested a Jedi conducting a legitimate criminal investigation and were planning to execute him, along with a second Jedi and a diplomat who had intended to negotiate his release. The Republic assault on Geonosis was intended to rescue these political prisoners.
Obi-wan's arrest was arguably illegitimate, but if I recall correctly, both Padme and Anakin had no official reason to be there. Also, wasn't Geonosis declared to no longer be part of Republic, therefore be excluded from their jurisdiction? That's the problem. We can make arguments for both sides, and be in relatively murky right.
@@nihili4196 Well, the Republic argued that secession was illegal and that Geonosis was still part of the Republic, so from that perspective Obi-Wan's presence on the planet was legal. Also, as the Senator for Naboo, Padme could sanction her own diplomatic missions and thus be granted diplomatic immunity (Leia later attempted to use the same legal principles to shield herself from Darth Vader), and her show trial and execution were meant to send a message to the Republic, making her a political prisoner. Like you said, arguments can be made for both sides. It really depends on whether or not you consider the secession of the CIS to have been legal. Given the real-world inspiration of the CIS, I'm inclined to say it wasn't.
I always root for the Clones, personally. Like, I want them to survive and escape their bonds. But politically? I support the CIS. At least, where Dooku isn't involved directly, lmao.
The ones that had actual legitimate problems were good but the ones that actually held real power were not really going to bring anything good in. Same for the republic of course.
The Rise of the Empire will show how much of a Tyrant Palpatine really was during the Clone Wars as he casually crushes any dissent that poses a threat to his Empire, and the tragedy of the Clones is that they are Good Soldiers and Good Men that will serve a corrupt government and a evil monster at its heart.
The fact that pretty much everyone throughout the Galaxy was victimized and in some way by the Sith's schemes and manipulations is quite sad. The Common people, Clones, and Jedi alike would all suffer great injustices as a result.
I wish that senator was someone we'd seen or meet beforehand and not just some COTD made specifically for this episode. Should've been Lux Bontari, at least be a character we're familiar with. Getting to the main topic, yes, the clones weren't fighting for a just cause, they were only slaves, deserves sympathy. As for the CIS, they're mostly relegated to one episode or brief mentions for all the Post-CW content, I wish they could more of an arc that focuses on them and a protagonist faction in the future. They're not all bad.
Lux Bonteri became one of the Partisan ring leaders. He hatches a plot to blow up a school which happened to be made by the Empire and gets defeated by Inferno Squad. We don't know what happened to him but Iden never heard about him again so it is unlikely he re-joined the Rebellion.
I wouldn’t fully say “we should have rooted for the droids” Palps intentionally hired generals with a scorched earth policy; who would rather kill entire populations than let them fall to enemy hands. Dooku was a smooth talker, and when he could he would rather fully convince a planet that the CIS was the best choice. But if they couldn’t sway someone they would gun down anyone. It’s not the separatists who were evil, but the controlling Sith and the Generals were absolutely bad people. (I wrote this comment at the beginning, I’m sure much of this comes up)
Not even the generals actually, most CIS generals were great, hence why they had to get them killed off/disgraced in stupid ways. This is shown in pre-Filoni Legends far more overtly, but Filoni has no respect for lore so we have to rely on the less well known and underappreciated canon lore teams.
Also, no matter how great CIS generals were, CIS face was always meant to be General Grievous, at least to people in the Republic. This demonization of CIS was so obvious, it was borderline parody. I wonder how come some people haven't noticed it sooner
One of the first things I learned when reading police reports and then interviewing the defendants - everyone has an agenda or story they want to tell. And everyone is real convincing.
I personally think this was an excellent writing choice. We’re seeing hero’s become villains and or struggle with what side to choose now that order 66 has somewhat run its course. I feel it’s supposed to tug at your heart strings while also making you confused. The same way the clones themselves are feeling.
So are we just supposed to ignore the Grand Army being formed in response to Kenobi discovering the massive Separatist Droid Army on Geonosis that Dooku admitted was to force independence at gun point?
pretty much, ignore the droid army that's cool apparently. And we're also supposed to ignore the proliferation of slavery and other sentient rights abuses among CIS worlds, and the existence of non-Separatist neutral polities such as Mandalore or the Hutt worlds... Its not as bad as his anti-stun-mode tirade, but still pretty bad imho....
On paper, it would actually probably be the most peaceful solution to create a secret army like the CIS did. The thinking for the average CIS council member would be that if they came out of nowhere with an army that big, the Republic would have absolutely no response. In a week (Okay, maybe not a week) they could have flown right to Coruscant and blockaded it until the Republic agreed to hear them out, at the very least. Given they didn't know about the Clones, they'd figure that the best the Republic could do was throw half-trained conscripts at the problem until something happened, and that's not even mentioning their serious shortage of warships.
There was that one CW arc where we saw the CIS and Republic meet to iron out their differences and the war. The actual peoples of both sides wanted peace, and were displeased with the constant war and fighting. In that arc, we saw the enemy as Dooku and Sidious, not the CIS, and not the Republic.
For me, when watching a series, it's common for me to not rewatch any of the episodes for a while after they are released... The S2 episode (I call it "The Cody Episode") is an exception. I rewatched this episode 2ce over solely because of how well it was written and because of all the little details sprinkled out. I LOVED the views when Cody and the gang were in those tight narrow alleyways and staircases. It's definitely gives you a sense of realistic suburban / urban combat conditions.
The Clone Wars cartoon came out after Revenge of the Sith so we all knew going into it that the Clones were always going to be instrumental in bringing about the end of the Jedi and The Republic. So the fact that we got to know the clones just make their betrayal more painful.
I think it's kind of a distinction without a difference. Both sides were committing heinous acts, and the wise Yoda made the best point on the matter "Wars not make one great, heh heh heh!" But the clones were fighting for the right reasons, even if they were lied to. They we lead to believe they were fighting to protect people. This lead to moments OF heroism. The motivations of those leading them do not diminish those acts. Likewise, a good soldier following orders does not excuse the war crimes committed. The same can't really be said about the droids because they were SO restricted and indeed conditioned, that they never made those leaps, even if their cause was the more honest and just (ignoring the sith machinations). The droids were arguable not capable of making the sacrifices or free will decisions that lead to acts of heroism, but this also gives many of the droids themselves something of a pass on their war crimes they were ordered to do. None of them really "choose" to commit war crimes, as they really didn't have the freedom to make the choice. This is why the moments in the clone wars when a clone chooses to commit a heinous act hit so much harder then when you see a droid do the literal same thing. Ultimately it is possible to be on the right side, and still be a villain, and to be on the wrong side and still be a hero, because it's not all black and white. War never has been and never will be.
I think the Clone Wars show came out when I was entering or already in high school. At that time, I always thought if I was just some regular human in the SW universe, I would be aligning myself with the Republic during the Clone War or maintaining a neutral position. As I've grown older (28 right now), served in the USAF, seen the political machine turn in real time while also studying similar 'revolutions' in history, I've come to realize I am probably the closest to the character of Count Dooku, someone who takes it upon their shoulders to bring a corrupt government back to caring for their people with all of their power. The entire reason the separatist movement gained traction from the Galactic Senate was because of the failures of the Republic's bureaucracy. They no longer cared for the citizens of the Republic but the companies that made it run. So there was a minority that formed together to leave the Republic. Then powerful actors chose to help them (Banking Clan, Trade Federation, and the Techno Union) for massive economic and political capitol gains. Dooku, Jinn, and Anakin all saw the same problems and went about trying to fix it in different ways. Qui-Gon Jinn still believed the Republic meant to do good and kept faith that they will fix their own issues themselves. He would keep performing his part to do good to the citizens of the Republic and the galaxy. Skywalker also believed the Republic meant well but believed it could not fix itself, so he sought to aid those that could change it (Padme and Palpatine) to the point that he then believed he was the one who had to fix the system. Dooku is a mix of the two. He chose to take action to fix the Republic himself, with the aide of Sheev Palpatine. Dooku actually believed in the plight of the Separatists and sought a peaceful reunion of the Separatists and whatever would become of the Republic that Palpatine would control. Obvious to us viewers, Sheev deceived Dooku of the grand plan the entire time they worked together. Dooku was under the impression that he was liberating the the average citizen of the galaxy from the tyranny of the Republic, and that fueled his "the end will justify the means used to achieve it" mentality. Now Dooku would commit many war crimes and terrorist atrocities but, I wonder if he really wanted to pursue those or if it was at the command of Palpatine. Short of the war crimes and terrorism, I very much sympathize with the separatists. I'm sure if I view the Clone Wars seasons again, I would be looking at what they could've done differently to better fight the Republic that began the war anyways.
You raise an interesting argument. I still believe in the clones in their effort to fight and to engage in war in a proper manner like any soldier. They just got bad orders, and also a bad situation. They did what they had to do. But they call them bad is definitely wrong
Good soldiers follow orders, huh? Being a soldier doesn't make you automatically better than if you weren't. And ignorance doesn't justify anything either. In the end there was not that much difference between droids and clones. I would even argue tha they were much more similar than I feel comfortable with.
@@nihili4196 you make a good point. Following every order given like most clones did is not really always a good thing it can actually be a bad thing sometimes because a lot of horrible things have been committed by people who were "just following orders" like many of the atrocities during World War II by the Nazis
The Prequel especially CW subtle message was always that the Empire existed and rised before Sidious declared it official in the Senate. The Military Bills, the spending Bills, the nationalizing of the Banking Clan, the decoupling of the Jedi from their true purpose etc - it all happened before the Empire "officially" existed. in short: democracy doesnt die within 1 day - with 1 declaration - it dies when youre for to long not paying attention how the inner workings get captured and fail to realize who is capturing it. And at some point this will always lead to insurgency and violence. The CIS was always on the right side - but run by the villains The Republic was always on the wrong side - but run by the heros "All for the greater cause"
In a way, the clones were always depicted as the bad guys. In film, scenes usually have the 'good guys' on screen left moving to screen right, whereas the 'bad guys' are on the right side of the screen moving left. In Clone Wars the Clone Army was often depicted as facing in the 'bad guy' direction. Remember in season 7 where the clones and droids face off on a bridge? Whenever they show the battle from the side, the clones are on the right and charging towards the droids who are screen left.
Sad thing is really everyone was played by Palpatine. The CIS was never going to win from the start and if they did I doubt the people with actual power would give them what they wanted. On the other side the Jedi and clones were just tools to be thrown away when their use was over. That said, I wouldn’t quite say the CIS were just the defenders. In Attack of the Clones the movie opens with Nute Gunray trying to kill Senator Amidala twice(through Jango), if that isn’t an act of war then I don’t know what is.
In fairness to the CIS, the likes of Nute Gunray, the Techno Union and the corrupt banking officials weren't really so much Separatists as they were Count Dooku's secret financial backers, rich, corrupt assholes that were looking to co-opt the political movement. And it was Count Dooku himself that arranged to have Jango Fett attempt to assassinate Padme, just so that Palpatine would have a pretext for starting a war. Remembering that Count Dooku and Palpatine were co-conspirators completely re-frames Jango's actions. Jango Fett was always meant to be tracked back to Kamino by the Jedi, and subsequently to Geonosis so that Palpatine would "discover" that Count Dooku was preparing the Separatists for war.
Technically he tried to kill padme before he joined the cis movement. And no, a private indidual attempting to assinate a representative is not an act of war. Refusing to hand them over to face the crime is arguebly an act of war. But not according to current concensus (hence Austria-Hungary is blaimed for starting ww1 and not Serbia).
To be fair, we don't know how much that's due to Palpatine's influence. Gunray seems like someone too cowardly to attempt orchestrating something like that, even though he is more than willing to participate. Also, he's just one of many leaders in CIS.
Count Dooku and General Grievous made great villains and were truly evil while leading the CIS. I think what this episode and the Rebel Alliance make the same point, that seeking independence itself is not wrong and that your methods determine your alignment to good or evil.
The thing is, Dooku and Grievous were never pure evil. Even the faces of the supposed evil of the CIS were, in their own ways, well intentioned (at least initially). Dooku's motives have been thoroughly explored, and essentially come down to his being a political idealist who despises corruption and the way the Republic Senate ignored its people. Dooku wanted a reformed galaxy, as opposed to total rule for himself, and was, in a way, just as used and misled by Palpatine as everyone else, given that's what the latter promised he'd get in the end. Grievous was more straightforward. He wanted revenge. Revenge for his people, who were slaughtered, in essence, for defending themselves against violent invaders who then ran crying to the Republic when they had to face retribution. Grievous' loathing for the Jedi and the Republic are the result of that injustice, and his way of avenging the people he once led. Homage to his fallen troops can be seen in the design and dress of his personal magna guards. I think this is what makes them, as you said, great villains. Villains shouldn't be one dimensional mustache twirlers who do bad things just for fun. It's always more interesting when they do bad things with a cause, for the greater good, or to avenge a previous wrong. Relatable motives, harsh actions.
The clones were arguable the easiest characters to root for in the CW. For a few reason, more than the Jedi themselves for sure. While the republic was long dead before the official founding of the empire and Order 66, the clones represent (ironically) the very ideals that the rest of the republic had turned it back on politically; brotherhood, loyalty, and fighting for something greater than yourself, and sacrificing yourself so that others who will never know of it may have hope for a better life. It’s ironic they were the very tools of the Sith and that’s the beauty of it. The best the Republic had to offer were tank bred Sith slaves. Even more an example of the Sith using the Jedi & The republics hypocrisy against them.
An interesting comparison/contrast of the role of the Clones in the Republic vs the Empire is that as an audience, we needed a "good guy" to root for, and at the time of the clone wars, the separatists were painted as bad with Ventris, Dookoo and Greivus as the poster children for it. While the noble Jedi were painted as trying to do the right thing while being played by Palpatine. It wasn't until after the clone wars were over and order 66 played out that we saw how brilliant Palpatine was in gaining power over the Senate, the banks (in season 5 of the clone wars actually) and removing all of his opposition (jedi and CIS). This is why the story is so entertaining and well written. During Bad Batch, it is known by the audience that everyone was played and who the true villain is. Even the Clones are starting to see it with inhibitor chips still intact. This is why it's kind of sad to see how the Clones are being used as pawn for not the secret enemy, but the known enemy. The whole story from beginning to end has captivated audiences for generations because it literally taps into every emotion for the audience. Dang. didn't mean to write a dissertation.
I want to see another sep holdout in canon, but on a larger scale. I think we deserve to see Gizor Delso canonized. I wanna see an AT-AT ripped in half by a Homing Spider Droid on Geonosis. We know in canon the Geonosians are wiped out by the Empire, so why not have them go down fighting?
They did go down fighting, against the Republic because they were enslaved by them to built the Death Star. That is why the Empire were the ones who had to oof them off, Poggle the Lesser incited a slave rebellion so he could be present at the Battle of Coruscant and for the rest of ROTS, which delayed the DS1 construction for months, meaning the DS1 skeleton was only finished a few months into the Empire (as we see in ROTS, the scene with Vader happens much later because Vader only became known to the Empire a few months after ROTS) when it should have been completed during the Clone War. The completion of the basic skeleton was always supposed to be the point where the geos all got murdered but their rebellion delayed the inevitable.
I literally watched this episode this morning for the first time and I felt the same way, but as a Transformera fan, I always had to root for the droids.
I think this is incredibly accurate, but jumping further down the rabbit hole where does that put the Jedi? Was Barriss May have been right that the Jedi had become misguided but does that justify her actions or is she just as guilty but in a different way?
The Jedi lost their way - and in a way the war was designed for this. The Jedi were supposed to be keepers of peace and not soldiers - what did Sidious do? He appointed the Jedi Knights as Generals of the Military. So he forced them to either disobey the Senate and the Republic which they promised to protect or disobey their principles of neutral peacekeepers. Barriss is the domino effect - because the Jedi betrayed their own principles Barriss betrays her own principles as well. IRL some call this "mutual radicalizing" - if 1 fraction, party, side radicalizes - this will radicalize the counter-fraction,party, side etc. leading to a circle of radicalization. Another good example why this was one purpose of the war? The CIS was created by systems which opposed the republic and its status quo - mainly the corruption and corporate monopolies which would dominate the policies of the republican senate. But the CIS was hijacked and used by corrupt people and corporate monopolies which would dominate the CIS policies as well. Classical Divide et Conquer
Wow, great topic! I have always had the thought that our beloved rebels from the origional trilogy were alot closer aligned to the CIS ideals But clone wars shows the oppresive central government as the "good guys" Maybe simply due to the fact that the Jedi were fighting "for the republic"
Well said. We had a flippening. Too bad everything was nationalized effectively by the Emperor. Droids would’ve crushed the early Empire. No Jedi, no Palpy holding back strategies and design of a purely automated fighting force.
The way the Prequels were designed also places the separatists in viewers minds as Count Dooku was aiming. If I remember correctly, the primary council of the Separatists was made up almost, if not entirely, of bankers & weapons dealers. Additionally, the framing of the Clone Wars show, seemed to be suggest less of a push to re-conquer planets (at least in particularly obvious terms). In many cases, the overt aim seemed to be that the republic were simply helping their own allies to keep from being conquered by the separatists. However, as we know with palpatine and dooku's involvement, both were being pushed from behind the scenes to encourage a major increase of power that the sith could rule from. I think that regardless of what "most" people on either side believed in, there was never a good option available without uncovering the actual conspiracy.
I’ve always rooted for the Droids and CIS before and after the Clone Wars Show. I never rooted for Clones nor the Republic. It was only unfortunate that we don’t see the point of view of the Separatist.
We do get to see the point of view of the separatists and they're not any better then the republic if not worse. If you mean the regular citizen then they're the same as a republic citizen, which is that they don't care about the overall politics just as long as it doesn't affect them.
This is from the actual script of the movie: COUNT DOOKU: As I explained to you earlier, I'm quite convinced that ten thousand more systems will rally to our cause with your support, gentlemen. And let me remind you of our absolute commitment to capitalism... of the lower taxes, the reduced tariffs, and the eventual abolition of all trade barriers. Signing this treaty will bring you profits beyond your wildest imagination. What we are proposing is completely free trade. (looks at Nute) Our friends in the Trade Federation have pledged their support. When their Battle Droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than anything in the galaxy, The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands me make. PASSEL ARGENTE, the Corporate Alliance Representative. PASSEL ARGENTE: I am authorized by the Corporate Alliance to sign the treaty. COUNT DOOKU: We are most grateful for your cooperation, Chairman. SHU MAI, the Commerce Guild Representative. SHU MAI: The Commerce Guilds do not at this time wish to become openly involved, But we shall support you in secret - and look forward to doing business with you. There are chuckles around the table. COUNT DOOKU smiles. COUNT DOOKU: That is all we ask. SAN HILL, the banker. SAN HILL: The Intergalactic Banking Clan will support you wholeheartedly, but only in a non-exclusive arrangement. WAT TAMBOR, the Techno Union representative. WAT TAMBOR: The Techno Unions are at your disposal, Count.
@@mightheal no we didn’t get a point of view of the Separatist, most of the time it’s the generic bad guy Archetype that the “good” guys usually face from the perspective of the republic side. I haven’t seen any of the perspective of the Perspective of the CIS that depicts the republic as “bad” guys (minus the Bad Bathch but that is post-order 66). And I have yet to see a Separatist Point of view that depicts an officer of the CIS as honorable or noble like Yularen. Plus, the entire Show itself focus too much on the republic, we really don’t get a proper representation of the CIS. There’s too much episodes where these Separatist are just “bad” guys when literally, both from legends and canon, there Separatist that are good. Plus, we did get a view of how the CIS operate when it’s not run by Megacorportaions, the episode of Raxus is a prime example of that one and I see that they’re fairing well as their Republic counter part.
OG TCW fans he meant. I have noticed this trend for people to cite Dave Filoni and act like he is the successor of GL/saviour of SW and thus his heavily flawed content is more important and thus more canon than
But wasnt the separatist army always supposed to loose? Dooku was leading the separatists and sidious was leading dooku so the separatists were only there to loose and the clones were there to kill the Jedi. Maybe I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure everyone was being manipulated and we should really feel bad for everyone.
That is why the droid army was such an interesting choice, because if they had shown clones mowing down humans in the same number of droids they killed, no one would of seen them as the 'good guys'. They definitely still killed people, probably lots of people, but the 'face' was the droids. It also allowed the jedi to pretend to be good, because even with how hard headed they had become they might of thought twice after seeing the first jedi return, covered head to toe in blood and guts of the fallen enemies.
I wouldn't have called them the protagonists of the episode just giving the antagonists more of the spotlight for an episode. It still pains me to see the clones as the bad guys but I was wanting them to lose that episode even though I kind of knew they were gonna win still. But it was still no doubt the best episode of the series imo mainly for the nostalgic feel and I was happy to know Cody went awol after this episode
All a protagonist is is the central focus of a story. A villain like Light Yagami from Death Note is the protagonist of his story, but also the villain of his story. A protagonist is the focus and an antagonist is their opposition even if it's just for an episode.
@@goldoan I still saw them as the antagonists as they were the villains of this episode still 🤷♀ I see the protagonist and antagonists as the good and bad guys of the story and they were very much the antagonists here
This is especially true when you look objectively at the Jedi during the clone wars. A reclusive religious police force not accountable to the Republic's military yet put in complete control of the same military. While we know most Jedi were good the galaxy saw warriors clad in armor invading worlds, not peacekeepers
Until the inhibitor chip arc I had difficulty rooting for the clones. What good was that bond they created with the Jedis? And then the traitors became victims, and so that arc has a special place in my heart.
The rooting was the fact it was carried with them. And that they committed a wrong, thinking it was right only to find out it wasn’t until too late. The chips took away from that
the chip was a very cope out invention that wants to avoid the hard reality of being soldiers and Indoctrination. how do you think the Holocaust happened? there was no evil nazi invention with a brainchip it was just Indoctrination and the hitler youth had like 5 years of Indoctrination and they already turned on their parents for treason against the state. the clones have 10 years of Indoctrination and have no bonds to anyone besides the republic,so you can already guess how fanatical loyal clones are
There were heroes on both sides of the war and villains on both sides of the war. On the Republic side, there were people trying to stop the war and people who were saving citizens lives. The other side were doing the exact same thing. But at the end of the day both sides lose
I realized this a long time ago. That eventually the clones will lead to the stormtroopers and we were cheering for the bad guys Also, the other clones in the Bad Batch are lousy shots now that they have to be the bad guys. Lol. Crosshair's is just deadly no matter what.
To me, the clones are heroes... they've just been placed under the command of corrupt and rather sinister officials. The 2nd episode of S2 we saw that these clones still have their sense of honor, duty, loyalty, and honesty... only for them to be executed for it. The clones were given a shitty deal, and that was by design. They were slaves for a higher order. Or, as a brainwashed rewording, they were soldiers for a greater purpose.
I believe if palpatine wasn’t pulling the strings from the shadows, I probably would have cheered for the separatists. Watching tails of the Jedi really put into perspective how corrupt the republic had become, especially in the outer rim. The the clones were honorable and noble to fight for the republic as they knew it, not for what it had became. The clones were just doing what they were taught and that’s what’s sad. The droids were in the same boat. They committed horrible acts due to the ruthlessness of their commanders.
He did, he told crosshair that they follow orders as good soldiers and must live with it as well. I believe Cody did really go AWOL because he no longer could be "a good soldier" anymore. He wants to just be an individual left from following orders like a living droid. Hopefully he eventually understands that firing on Kenobi was not his choice because of the chip. Maybe crosshair is sent to find him and kill him, but when he does he tells Cody about the chip and ends up helping him escape the back up troops shadowing crosshair
We mustn't forget how the Clones responded to natural disasters and rescued citizens in need. During the Clone Wars, the Clones showed heart, and a willingness to battle corruption in multiple episodes. That's why we often loved and admired them.
No they didn't. Literally Commander Wolffe was like: 'Here are your supplies, bye now!' And when C3P0 and R2 tried to actually help fix the problem, they just straight up ignore them and leave them behind.
@tk-6967 I respect your opinion, but you just have to watch the whole series. Ryloth Arc, battling the Slavers, Fives tackling Palpatine, etc... Some good stuff. But yes, War is never easy.
@@briandonovan2372 Battling the slavers wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts, that was ordered to happen. The Ryloth arc was literally set up to make them look good, it wasn't an accident that Tambor, someone who was clearly a neutral war profiteer and not a Seppie and who knew about the Sith Grand Plan took all of the wealth *for himself* and left the CIS looking like the bad guys. I mean Ryloth had reason to consider joining the CIS up until that point! Meanwhile they were perfectly fine with enslaving the Geos and knowingly and willingly helped make the Death Star.
Son, it's okay. We just got different things out of the Clone Wars. The Clones weren't perfect, but I appreciated their humanity. The Clones demonstrated their good and bad on many occasions. No hard feelings. Have a good night and a good year.
I mean if you didn’t see all this in the clone wars, we’re you really watching?. The whole point of the show was to represent how a noble and just society can quickly devolve through fear and propaganda. In the name of peace, prosperity and protection the clones were and always will be heroes but only for the willing members of the republic. Then the empire dumped em. 😢
I didn't sympathize with the seppie lady at all. She literally started the bloodshed and turned her home into a battlefield. I cheered when Crosshair shot her and Cody going awol after this makes no sense at all.
I knew the clones would turn on the Jedi before the clone wars first began preproduction. I watched the prequal trilogy and knew the outcome. Still enjoyed clone wars as it filled in how the cis and the republic were all manipulated and both had bad people. It was never meant for anyone to win. It was all for the sith to get revenge on the jedi, and destroy them, seize power of the galaxy and force sith rule on all worlds.
Unfortunately, if one watches just TCW they will fail to understand the core meaning and complexity of the conflict since the show almost always presents it as good guys vs bad guys which is exactly what it was not about.
Even the narrator at the beginning of the episodes explicitly framed the Republic as heroes and often called the CIS leaders villainous or diabolical, it's almost like actual propaganda, and I never considered this but I wouldn't be surprised if that was intentional. That we the audience are seeing the same propaganda that Palpatine was probably feeding the Republic's citizens.
People root for the clones because they are always shown fighting an aggressive unfeeling enemy. Imagine if clone wars was done from the CIS perspective, where Count Dooku is the secret sith leader that no one knows about much like Palpatine for the republic, and General Greivous is the hero much like Anakin for the republic. We see bits of human reactions from droids, but that's more shown in this version, whereas the republic clones are shown to be callous tacticians alongside the Jedi. The Umbaran arc for example, would show the invading Republic Clones landing and attacking a native fighting force of Umbarans who are pushed back and invaded upon. General Krell while shown as evil in the normal CW, would seem even more ruthless, almost Thrawn level in that regard (lacking the hyper-intelligence), and the Umbaran's would be even more frightened. Taking the Airbase and blowing up the Separatist supply ship would be seen the same as the supply cutoff by Admiral Trench in Cat and Mouse. Overall it would drive home the idea that the good guys in history are the ones who write the history, and they are the one's who win. That being said I still love the clones because they are innocent cogs in an evil machine. Just as i can't fault the engine of a car that kills someone I love, as much as I do fault the driver. I would love the CIS soldiers and members more than I would the leaders, if such a perspective on their inner workings was shown.
I love how you describe the whole story and honestly it gives a more natural look at the situation gives a lot more blurred lines instead of black and white sorta how the soldiers on both sides of the American civil war had ground troops fighting for differing ideology’s but to the winners and losers of the war it became one side or another very well crafted video honestly
🤔 . . . Actually, I think that the Battle for Geonosis was actually justified because, in chronological order: 1: the Trade Federation technically violated its court ruled orders to NOT having an extensive droid military, even going as far as building more B1s & other models. 2: an opposer of war, as well as the target of sore losers, was singled out, probably due to the growing circumstances. 3: with Dooku claiming that he is Sith, Darth Tyranus, the Jedi acted. Now, despite the justifications for the CIS to Secede from the Republic (something that I’m fairly confident that the Republic would’ve accepted, as long as it was a Peaceful Secession), there was too much contradictory evidence that implied that whichever worlds wished to stay with the Republic would’ve been invaded by the CIS (implied). However, if done Peacefully, then there would’ve been a good chance that Trade agreements could’ve been made, but these CIS worlds wouldn’t receive Republic Aid, especially in cases of various natural disasters & such. Furthermore, based on the later made comments, I will clarify that the Republic ‘Leaped-Before-it-Looked’, instead of ‘Looking-Before-Leaping’. The Republic acted before they made further investigations, which is a complete 180° to what happened during Episode One: sending a committee to investigate & validate the claims before acting. Thus, regardless of the Justifications, I will acknowledge that the Republic is s technically in the wrong.
Technically those weren't Trade Federation droids...I mean, they might have been designed by them, but they were technically owned by the CIS. In fact they may have technically been produced under a license too, to keep them even further separated on paper. The Trade Federation, and other corporate powers were mostly, at least on a technical level, neutral. We even see the Trade Federation still had a seat on the Republic senate and the Republic for a while openly negotiated with the Intergalactic Banking Clan even though their droid designs were also used by the CIS. As for Dooku being Sith, that was surprisingly not illegal in and of itself. Probably since Sith usually commit other crimes anyway. Like how necrophilia is often not illegal, but desecrating a corpse is, so basically only illegal if you act on it. Many of Dooku's actions during the war no doubt would rack up a number of actual crimes, but being a Sith wouldn't be one of them.
Well, all of Count Dooku's action were to ensure that Palpatine would have an excuse to declare a war however. Including hiring Jango Fett to assassinate a senator and having Jango lead the investigation to Geonosis.
I’m not referring to the other mega corps, just the Trade Federation’s violation of court orders, @@AdmiralBlackstar. Otherwise, if the individual planets did commission the droids, then they should’ve said so & an observation committee could’ve assessed the situation (counting the battle droids one-by-one). The fact that it was being done covertly is what actually bothers the Republic & a response was formed. However, this makes me think of that whole invasion of Iraq, in that despite not finding weapons of mass destruction, the Iraqi military infrastructure, the underground networking & such, did imply something. Thus, if the Trade Federation was actually following the Republic’s Supreme Court’s orders, then those Core Ships wouldn’t have been able to lift-off like that, plain & simple. Its like a cop pulling over an obviously slow car model, only to have it suddenly go 767.269 miles per hour . . .🤷♂️…
@@nickvinsable3798 The key words in the second sentence is "should've" and "could've". If they were threatening and planning to succeed from the Republic, they aren't going to broadcast that they're commissioning an army of droids that will help them ensure their sovereignty post-succession. Had they followed procedure, the Republic would've simply said no anyway, and they'd have been under even more scrutiny that might have prevented them from continuing covertly. The Trade Federation was officially neutral in the conflict and had the political clout to keep the senate from complaining too much about any ships and droids that Nute Gunray had absconded with. To quote Lott Dod: "We are not Separatists simply because we do business with them. How many times must I remind you of the Commerce Treaty of 1647? The Trade Federation is neutral."
in pretty much every war almost everyone is a victim. not only one side. not only the civilians. soldiers are tools just like the droids and the clones. there are always only a few who are the evil behind the war who send in their tools to destroy or capture something they want. i always watched the the star wars series from that perspective and thats what i loved about it because even if they where clearly made to have heroes and villains, there where also moments where the lines blurred and with the newer series like the bad batch or andor you see a lot of "behind the scenes" of war.
Reminds me of when I started learning more about my country's history, the parts they gloss over or outright skip in the classroom. And the more I learned the more I kept coming back to the same question: "we're the good guys, right?" And unfortunately it wasn't that we were the good guys, but rather that we weren't the worst guys more often than not, which isn't a whole lot better than being the bad guys. And the Republic was often like that, where they weren't the good guys per se, but rather they were better than the other option, usually. But now the Empire turned up the badness a few notches so now that they are the worst option.
I thought it was supposed to be obvious from the beginning that the clones were always just Stormtroopers by a different name. Even in the clone wars they used cheesy propaganda tactics with the narrator all the time and kind of beat you over the head with the fact that they were really pushing the good guy narrative suspiciously hard
The big thing ignored here, and why people routed for the clones during CW, is the fact most of star wars paints Jedi as 'the good guys' and sith as 'the bad guys' (not withstanding individuals on either side turning that all into more of a messy spectrum overall). With us the viewers clearly in the know of what the people in power want, it is easy to root for the Jedi and their truly alive slaves forced upon them by the republic over the mechanical sentients enslaved by the CIS. Because we know where this is headed. The whole of the CW series wasn't pyramus and tisbe where at the end the lovers get to be together, albeit as trees, no it was Romeo and Juliet where just about everyone will be dead by the end. We know the people trying to represent the innocent (Padme, bail, the Bonteris, etc.) will have failed. We know the Jedi will be dead despite trying their best to do good. We know the Sith will come out on top despite, or rather because, they play everyone else like a fiddle to create a hauntign sadistic melodie. So We rout for the guys we realte to, the humans, and those trying their best, on a person on screen level, to do the right thing. Which usualy meant the Jedi lead of the episode. The Causes the armies fight for are, as a known fact to the viewer, utterly irrelevant because both will be lost. Thus it doesn't matter that the clones are fighting for what will become the empire, or the droids are, supposedly, fighting to keep the republic of their lawn. The war is jsut a forgone conclusion of a back drop to tell us how all these characters will die despite trying their best.
Now I'm totally sure. We need a star wars story in which some CIS politicians are the protagonists. We know so little about them during the clone wars other than about Dooku, Grievous and the battle droids.
There are several in "Legends". For instance, the Mon Calamari people were originally Separatists before TCW was made. There was an arc about a Mon Calimari hero general that was so good, he was threatening Palpatine's plans for the war.
While I always rooted for the clones because they’re still humans with human emotions and just because it’s that or the obviously bullshit CIS. They all just follow orders but droids have what the clones don’t: Incorruptibility and are defined by their users which makes their use for justice easy. The Clones, like the CIS leadership, are loyal to their one creator: Sideous. Will Smith is a meme.
Old Canon yes both legends and older Disney stuff had him loyal to the end. But filoni has never respected anything that wasn't in a TV series or movie. Hell he has ignored elements from the movies and his own shows on numerous occasions.
You know low key the framing star wars: the clone wars is brilliant; most of the people who are fans of the show saw it when they were still children so their minds were still very impressionable and were feed tons of republic propaganda (kinda like the clones) so to see the faction that we all saw as the good guys become evil allows us the viewers to really sympathize with the clones because even tho we’re smart enough to see that the empire is bad we’ve been taught the opposite. That is a great corner stone to build a story on and it makes me wonder why the hell were not seeing more episodes exploring this, rn is great time to introduce new interesting characters but instead we’re getting indiana jones in space
This fact about the clones and droids reminds me of how it's actually pretty easy to make a genuinely heartfelt story about brotherhood and comradery involving the standard German army during WWII, who absolutely are the bad guys and yet we get stories like Das Boot and Generation War. It's a very uncomfortable yet important truth: that even the worst person imaginable can be made relatable when shown from a certain perspective.
This is what i was thinking of, we rooted the clones because they were presented as the heroes of the republic trying to restore peace, from the big bad wolf that was the CIS, now the bad batch presented the true CIS without the perspective of the republic, and for most of the og they were kids when they started seeing the clone wars is the story good vs evil, but star wars was never black and white, as every conflict is
i feel one of the coolest things they could have done was have the confederacy form again after the death of the empire or after the First Order attacked the new Republic. this would explain how the First order was able to take control of all of the Republic as half of it was now the Confederacy and they had an army to stand up to the First orders might.
That may be so, but when you look at it from the perspective that the war was orchestrated by Palpatine, the cause to fight matters so much less. Though practically no one knew it, no one was really fighting for anything. The war was just a tool to thin out the Jedi, and create a war-weary galaxy that would be eager to accept a "peacekeeping" Empire. With a few exceptions, the outcome of every battle was determined from the start.
The fact that separatists joined the rebellion just goes to show that really the people who wanted their old republic back and the people who just wanted to be left alone really did end up joining sides after all.
I think neither factions should be considered just or heroes as at the end of the day they were both serving under a tyrant, Darth Sidious Neither side realized the wrong doing they were committing The clones thought they were doing the right thing and saving Separatist home worlds from the tyrannical control of count Dooku who stole, enslaved, and oppressed their own people when for most seppie homeworlds that wasn’t the case They thought they were doing the right thing when they themselves became oppressors As for the droids they had little free will to deny an order even if that order was enslavement, execution, or other war atrocities they may have committed
I always rooted for the droids. Those b1 battledroids were FUNNY as Heck and seriously deserve a spinoff focusing on their Point of view during the clone wars and dave filoni ahould direct this too. They were by far my favorite character if you dont consider ashoka, obi wan,grievous and rex, all other characters i couldnt care less for. But those 5 different characters (yes i consider ALL b1 battledroids to be a single character) to be my favorite characters (although windus brag is super hilarious to the tons of droids that he was about to butcher.
The only real crit I'd offer is how the CIS had as effective sponsors and power-brokers the worst and most corrupt and corrupting of the former Republic business and power interests. That might have just been Real Politik, so to speak, but if they weren't about conquest, those really calling the shots likely were - if they themselves hadn't met a bad end.
I feel like you are right about republic being imperialistic with formation of the GAR but the separatist already had droids and attacked the republic and the jedi first, so the republic conquest was only in self defence from their point of view.
@@tk-6967 They were builiding a droid army and a lot of battle stations, not to mention that a bounty hunter who tried to murder republic senator was there, if you rewatch episode 2 you will see that it was only Obi-Wan who followed and saw that Dooku planed to attack the republic, but none of this matter because as i said the CIS attacked Naboo, the republic planet, first and therefore are the aggressor in the war
![Why this Episode CONFUSED OG Clone Wars Fans So Much [The Bad Batch]](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
