Reminds me of a quote I read a couple days ago. It was basically explaining that it was only the Europeans who were trying to find a grand meaning to life, while when a Native American was asked what the meaning of life is, he simply said it's to just be alive. I think the problem these days and this whole chatter about a "meaning crisis" is just us having been conditioned by our economic system to always want more and never be content. We just need to be grateful for being alive and honestly stop thinking so hard about the meaning of it all.
The Bible says "vanity of vanities; all is vanity", however it gives us multiples of purposes: 1) To enjoy life 2) To multiply 3) To prosper 4) To get our name written in heaven (believe Christ died for our sins) 5) To get others names written in heaven (spread the good news, plant seeds) 6) To worship God (sing praises to him, pray, study his word, have fellowship with brothers and sisters) 7) To serve God (help others around us in small ways)
I respectfully disagree about the economic system as the underlying root of these problems. Having more means whether by right or left leaning economic structures breeds the positives of life that we enjoy. Yes there are faults within them. But to blame that we figured out how to turn the base of sand into the world wide web as evidence that we're looking into meaning where there is none. Seems absurd to me. I mean life is always improving wherever you look, slowly and roughly in many cases, but life has never stopped improving, constantly upgrading itself. With the Native American man fire wasn't always an old discovery life improved after fire and kept improving with other tech like tents, bows and arrows, ect. What I'm trying to say is that life and humanity is building itself higher and higher. Our quest for meaning is a combination of where/when does the improvement stop? And how does our individual lives fit into that point?
@@billwalton4571 Ah the one who beliefs in god because he wants to, not because the evidence compells him to? Watched enough videos of him getting debunked, so I don't buy it. And even if atheism is debunked. You still have all other religions to debunk AND proof that christianity is the right one. So who cares if atheism is debunked? Buddhism might be the right religion, maybe Shinto, maybe Islam, maybe Judaism und christianity is just a misguided cult.
Our ability to judge something on our first impression is quite important for our survival. I can't imagine how we'd have to change to evolve past this.
@@MrSkme true, but I think the preview is more of a technique to gain the audience’s interest. My point is that if we’re watching the video, we’re already interested. Someday we’ll know that a preview in this context is fruitless.
@@Mr_Case_Time That's not true, it can easily be the case that someone clicks on a video and based on what they see further, then they decide whether to pursue it or not.
Video Summary : Why we can't find meaning : no moustache Solution : grow moustache As you can see, Alex has taken this revelation beyond its functional utility and has descended into moustachism.
When we are happy we don't ask for "meaning", in my experience. But also, when we have meaning (when we think something we are doing is really meaningful and important) we don't necessarily ask for happiness, either.
I wonder if this feeling of nihilism arrises more in people who were brought up to believe in an objective purpose but then stopped believing in it. I accepted early on that the universe doesn't have an objective purpose, this didn't stop me from valuing subjective meaning.
@@olgakarpushina492exactly, I’ve tried to delude myself by saying that I can just make meaning for myself but it quickly falls apart once I realize that the meaning I make for myself is meaningless
It’s like if I was promised a lollipop after my doctors appointment and then after the check up I didn’t get a lollipop. I’d be a lot less disappointed if I was never promised the candy in the first place.
@@olgakarpushina492 All we have is subjective meaning. That's it. You can fool yourself into thinking this fits into something objective if you want, but it can only matter to you in a subjective way. Pretending otherwise is simply a glorified worship of peer pressure, consensus, and mob rule.
There is no purpose in the physical universe. Therefore…. Purpose is a social construct, valued by humanity. Consider purpose or meaning within this framework: 1. it is Personal. 2. It is Proximal. 3. It is Present (temporal) PPP You have created meaning (Personal) from that which is near you (Proximal) at this time in history (Present/ Temporal ). It is not right or wrong. It is ever changing. It is as diverse as the 8 billion people alive today. Search for it if you want to, but you already have it. Just ask yourself each morning when you wake up and you will be right. When you finally stop searching for meaning, you will have it. I’m a 75 year old nobody who enjoys the subject. Thanks for this interesting post.
Exactly. There is no objective "purpose" on moving a ball 3 inches to a line, yet it certainly has meaning to a lot of people watching the Superbowl with "10 seconds left". We all(or at least some of us) just agree that for a moment, at least, it really matters.
Alex's and John's suggestion that, whatever meaning is, it is not propositional, is new to me. Yet this resonates quite strongly. I was deeply religious most of my life and was a missionary for decades. (literally a professional Christian) I've always perceived and articulated my eventual deconstruction in propositional terms yet felt there were still gaps. This discussion has shifted my perception significantly and brought some measure of clarity for which I am most grateful to everyone responsible for this conference and it's presentation on You Tube. Thank you all so much.
Me too. When I learned/discovered that a truly religious person is concerned with their own contact with reality and not an assent to the propositions of doctrine, I was free
When I was a Christian I was constantly felt hopeless while trying to measure up to an impossible standard. Now an atheist I no longer think there is an objective standard to meet other than the standard I set for myself. Although I don’t always meet that standard and that’s ok.
@@johnevans6629 Christianity is not about meeting the standard of Christ. It is an impossible standard, that’s the point. That’s why we need His grace. It sounds like maybe you were taught a legalistic works based Christianity, but that’s a false Christianity. Christianity simply about having faith in Jesus (John 3:16/Ephesians 2:8-9) it’s not about your own works or merit. The answer isn’t to abandon the concept of an objective standard, but rather to have adoration for it and trust in it, in which the objective standard is Jesus Himself, who if you simply believe you will have eternal life.
Yes, I felt the same way. I found that there doesnt need to to be a grand plan, meaning, for my existance as if to justify my utilization of resources in this world; "god" GIVES you, BLESSES you, with life, food, warmth, shelter, family, vocation, and in return you are charged with this imperative to make that "investment" worthwhile, to earn it. And thus begins the eternal pursuit of living up to someone else's impossible standards, their interpretation of the scriptures of what defines a godly life. I believe in science ( I'm from that community) and as mysterious as it is that we haven't found the answers yet, on how elements from space landed on our planet and combined to form molecules that eventually breathed life into our existence, it doesn't justify Jesus/Muhammad/yahwe/Buddha stealing that honor and therefore highjacking our inner peace until we do find those answers. We need to love ourselves with more compassion and optimism that even without religion cracking the whip at our backs, that we all find purpose in our lives, with others or without. There is something to be said about solitude.
@@harlowcj it seems you misunderstand what standard means. Standard means 'a certain decided level of quality.' This level can be determined by anyone and thus it is often a subjective manner disguised as something objective, as there are often times strong feelings behind them. My standard is that I never leave my pants sagging off. Is that not a standard? It's something I try to uphold. I can have this standard for other people as well, however, that doesn't influence what THEIR standards are. It only affects how I feel about others. I may treat them differently, but the standards remain, and they are different for every person. Moral of the story, you can not prescribe standards for other people, doing so would be to suppress the person's feelings, thoughts and values. It would be abuse. You don't force feed your pets certain foods, so you definitely don't force feed people. That's the problem with religion. It clouds your cognitive abilities that your body has been working so hard on to develop with millions of years of evolution by just being fed a story from a young child without knowing any better. People long for a romantic story to have in their lives, and so they lean in on the fantasies of 2000 years ago because they have nothing else, as they can't live a real life today.
Atheism is growing. Who are the people saying it’s “going out of fashion”? It’s not a fashion. It’s the ability to think critically and question things and not accept dogma as truth.
Atheism certainly isn't growing. If you keep going you'll realise you can't logic your way into understanding the universe. Are you saying many of our greatest minds of all time (Einstein, Newton etc) are unable to think critically? 😉
@@lighting7508 Your comment shows how ignorant you are. Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. The vast majority of atheists are also agnostics.
People feel alienated, unfulfilled and are often economically struggling, so perhaps it is no wonder that people are growing skeptical of the dogmatic systems of the past.
Except economic struggle actually gives people meaning. Alex briefly talked about this. If your economic situation means a roof over your head and a hot meal are not guaranteed, that instantly gives you a "mission" - obtain stable shelter, obtain food security. Ted Kaczinsky's manifesto (despite its many flaws) describes this is detail in what he calls the "power process". Humans derive meaning from identifying an achievable goal, taking the initiative to pursue that goal, and ultimately achieving that goal. In doing so we take our fate into our own hands and demonstrate our agency. He argues that the way humans live in the "wild" naturally provides us with this "power process", which explains why rates of depression and suicide were so low throughout history, despite horrible economic conditions.
@@LightbulbTedbear2 in my opinion there is something important in what you are saying, and I would say it doesnt actually capture the crux of problem. The doted son or daughter often suffers just as much as the economically deprived child. Suffering is a universal experience. And so in a way that validates what you are saying. Often when talking about the success of children and then ultimately adults, the problem is often phrased as this binary choice between being economically provided for or not when there is a much more substantial factor that plays into the success of a child - nurturing. One of the greatest determining factors in whether a child is successful or not is whether they have an adult that takes interest in them. This could be outside of their family on the form a mentor or coach. But parents are absolutely key. Nurturing means different things in different age groups. For an infant, it means a mother breast feeding her child and sharing sustained eye contact. It means not dropping off your infant at daycare and then going to work (regardless of whether it is for survival or superficial reasons). As a pre-pubescent child it means encouraging your kid in all things and teaching them to play, while still holding them accountable for their behavior. Enforcing firm and consistent consequences (no corporal punishment) even when the discipling gets in the way of the adults plans. Teaching consequences to a child consistently are more important than anything. Teaching delayed gratification - the child gets the toy after doing the hard thing, not before. Teaching them how to engage with the world around them in a respectful way. Teaching them foundational morality. The ‘power process’ can be simulated without being in a constant wilderness survival situation, but it means making decisions as parents that are counter to mainstream culture. It means limiting screens and any form of instant gratification to almost zero. It probably means not sending them to school whether public or private. In my opinion, what we are really talking about here is teaching a child resiliency - confidence, grit, determination. That means having coming of age ceremonies that are beyond superficial. I think ten day long survival training in the wilderness could be really useful, and it could be something different depending on the kid and what their strengths are, but something that is unbelievably challenging, something that is going to involve failing and overcoming that failure (more the overcoming of an emotional sense of failure rather than the literal). Most will disagree with me, but personally, im even okay with there being an element of danger that could lead to death. If there is a 14 year old doing a ten day survival course and there is a 2% chance they could die, but they come out of that opportunity a powerful and fantastic human being, id say that risk is worth it. Maybe for an intellectually oriented kid they do some type of dissertation. Young adults brains dont stop developing until they are 25-28 yrs old. So getting kids to avoid drugs including psychiatrist prescribed hormones or narcotics also very important to the development of healthy people And the big thing that is missing from the discussion is respectful functional nurturing from two parents. We have convinced ourselves that is okay to have a single nuclear family living by themselves with both parents working. This is completely antithetical to evolutionary biology. Mom and Dad both working, little to no generational support from grandparents or aunts/uncles. This is how you get sociopathy in children. This is how you get mass murder. Children being literally or metaphorically neglected en masse. This is one of the biggest travesties in modern humans. Im all for feminism if the definition is equal respect between the sexes and to tell a woman that she can have it all… that you can have a family and work 40+ hours a week is so disrespectful to children. It is not how we evolved biologically and it is creating huge societal problems. Personally, i dont care who is at home with the kids but somebody needs to be there. Ideally, I think especially for young children Mom staying home makes the most sense as she has the hardware and software for interfacing with young kids, but at some point it probably makes sense to transition to Dad
@@LightbulbTedbear2not everyone experiences this crisis of feeling alienated and hard to see meaning in it all the same. i personally feel that way because i have always believed there is a reason we are here individually, i have found out what i need to do on this earth. My problem is dying and not having any type of existence after death, thats where the no meaning comes in for me and it terrifies me, i do not want it to all go black and i forget about anything I’ve ever known and go back to nothing like before i was born
@@cadenrichardson4005you can’t experience “nothing” it’s neither black or white emptiness… it’s beyond our comprehension of experience. Are you still you? Nothing to remember.. nothing to fear.
Camus says in the Myth of Sysyphus that he never heared of a man who died for an ontological argument. I like your dramatisation of this sentiment, Alex.
Camus is so misunderstood it makes me sick. Absurdism grows out of nihilism but is not dtqched from it. I have so many thoughts about the idea of rebellion that I would not dare spell it out in a RU-vid comment, but perhaps I will write an essay on it eventually. Society has made it a meme and has confused it with existentialism.
To me, meaning is simply the experience of engaging in what is important to me. It is independent of whether it is religious or secular or anything else
I have been an unbeliever for more than 4 decades now. My discovery many years ago that there was no need to look for meaning. It has become, for me, an unimportant concept. Just do stuff. Don't worry about the meaning. Just enjoy what you are doing while you are doing it, and look forward to doing other stuff.
I highly encourage you to listen to Alex and John Vervaeke discussing his point of view in greater detail in another video on Alex's channel. Very interesting point of view in my opinion.
The question of what’s the meaning makes no sense to me. What’s the meaning of a mountain, or an ocean? It’s a bad question that doesn’t have an answer.
I don't think its a bad question. Maybe your struggling with the scope of the question? You can break it down to a more simple question. Whats the meaning of putting on a sweatshirt? Because it's cold. If you can find meaning in taking a drink of water for instance, I don't think its irrational to then broaden it out and ask about the meaning of life.
@@chaseross2731 It’s easy though when it’s an action that somebody takes. Picking up a glass of water, running for the bus obviously have a purpose so the question makes sense. But for things like mountains, planets, space, life, what are you even asking if you’re asking me for the meaning of them? Try it.. what’s the meaning of the planet Earth? What’s the meaning of this rock over here?
@@YivvaMedia I'm far too dumb to have an intelligent conversation about the deeper meaning of space, earth and the meaning of life. Christians may explain it as divine revelation. Existentialists may agree that life is without meaning but unless you want to fall into Hedonism and then graduate to full Nihilism, that's not really a good path. All of this is besides the point though. The only real issue I took with your first comment was the last part. The "It’s a bad question that doesn’t have an answer." An example of a bad question would be "Why is dirt stupid?". That's a question that doesn't have an answer and isn't worth your time. "What is the meaning of life?" Now that's a questions that's worth massive discussion and many, many deep dives; and could be knowable IMO.
@@chaseross2731 It’s not about being smart or dumb it’s just that ‘meaning’ doesn’t apply to these things. For something have meaning it needs to have purpose behind it. Maybe the space example through you off, so consider this simpler example.. “What’s the meaning of an apple?” It should be clear there’s no answer because the question makes no sense. It’s as nonsensical as your dirt example, And if there’s no answer to something simple like an apple you’ve got no chance with life itself.
As they said in the video, they weren’t trying to find the meaning of life, they were looking at finding meaning within life. I can’t articulate it as well as Alex did but he explains this when he’s talking about meaning being this thing that you constantly strive for and constantly fail to achieve. And about what the meaning of an apple can be, Im tempted to say that an apple has no definite meaning, it simply is a byproduct of evolution, but I think it could also be true that the meaning of an apple is only what it is. Maybe it’s conscious awareness that makes humans different than plants on the matter of meaning.
@@benjaminkoch2380 I don't think so. I see the supposedly universal human need for meaning as a symptom of a deep philosophical disease. I don't know the cause yet but realise how lucky I am to not feel sick.
He will never do it. He is a coward who only can fight the jewish looser god and he enjoys the vain popularity and money it raises. There is a broad public with as limited understanding of the real spirituality as theirs, always prepared to fight their wars with authority by proxy. Alex is very causios not to acknowledge this Yehowah immage is not the actual God for most - that would deprive him of the easy strawman target.
I’ve been watching you for a while now, and you remind me a lot of Christopher Hitchens. You’re sharp, well-read, and-well-British, which might just be the secret ingredient that makes someone seem both charming and articulate. Often, it feels like you’re reading my mind with the points you raise. While I’m more technically inclined and not as verbally skilled, it’s a real joy to hear your guests respond to objections I would have raised myself. In this way, I feel a personal connection to your content that I rarely find elsewhere. However, I’d love to see the channel expand into a few areas outside your usual comfort zone. I trust that you’ll rise to the occasion. I’m thinking of featuring more technical figures like Sean Carroll or Scott Aaronson. I believe there’s a segment of your audience, myself included, that you may not have fully tapped into yet.
Stop assuming that everybody once had a feeling of deep connectedness within a church community or within spirituality or within a relationship with a god. The connectedness that people need is not always experienced that way by people. These two very different types of people who don't believe in a god are going to have to find ways to be in community together. From Vervaeke's RU-vid channel: "Vervaeke uses the terms "metaphysical essentialism" to refer to this attitude. He argues that if we want to solve our meaning crisis, we must untangle the sacred from the supernatural. We have to come up with a way of re-articulating our worldview in which we can get back that sense of deep connectedness."
1) Meaning is already implicit in the miracle and mystery of existence. 2) Seeking meaning objectifies it, which chases it away. 3) The problem is that we are distracted away from implicit meaning. That makes us feel empty, and so we imagine some form of meaning and chase after it. This division of our energy into self and meaning creates dissatisfaction.
@secularape I think he's referring to life itself as a "miracle" but it's not necessarily saying its a miracle in the sense that there is some impossible physical altering. It's more like the fact of life itself is like a miracle. And the mystery is eternal in the sense that we will never know why it's there or that it's just a sort of strange thing that it's there and we're experiencing it. I get what he's saying and actually I agree. Most of the culture we have nowadays is centered around trying to sell some version of what they believe it is. In reality, no one has a claim to life and what it is and what meaning they make is usually self deluded because it's not necessary and not possible.
The miracle is that we still don’t understand where life comes from. It’s still a great mystery. He’s not talking about a miracle as in the water turning to wine.
@@martingifford5415 I'm not sure I'd use the words mystery or miracle when applying it to existence. Typically, those are very theologically loaded terms. The word implication is a devilish term as well. Implications are not obvious to many.
@@MachineManiaOG As everything comes from elements found in the Universe, so does life. Where do stars come from? Where does helium come from? Where do viruses come from?
@@MachineManiaOG we do have a better theories for where life comes from that arent magic sky daddy created the earth in 6 days and made adam and eve yet he forgot to mention the part where life existed long before humans or even their long extinct ancestors lol
An individual must recognize they have blind spots in order to put effort into clearing them and be willing to completely reconstruct behavior, human associations and their relationship to the natural world such as trees, lichen, birds and rivers. It takes the upmost discipline, courage and ability to be alone in a new way.
He should, but not until he really, really, really, understands what consciousness is. _From Atheist to Ascended Master_ 🦋......................🚶♂.....................🚎
@@OmegaOracle010 Consciousness is *awareness.* Everything "beyond" awareness, is simply an Act of Consciousness. 📚 But what is "beyond" awareness, is still consciousness. Everything that exists, exists _within_ consciousness. There is nothing that exists outside of consciousness; there is no "out there" out there. -Consciousness is *everything* -Consciousness is holographic -Consciousness is *Awareness* -Consciousness is who you truly are Awareness is God. God is you. The soul is a facet of God. The human is a facet of the soul. "Consciousness is the primordial ground of all being." ~Althar Surreal _Master Class_ This is a basic definition. But simply put, consciousness is everything, and awareness is the absolute core.
@@bmerlin376 Thank you but those statements appear to be just assertions rather than facts when presented without adequate evidence. Can you elaborate?
@@OmegaOracle010 Everything I told you is a fact. Your only evidence will be when you take your last breath. Awareness + everything else = consciousness Awareness is the foundation of all realities. It's really quite simple.
The human condition, since we became self aware, has been a quest for "meaning." Is there a "crisis to find meaning?" Sure. There always has been. That existential crisis has been the subject of stories since we could first tell a story. It isn't anything new. Religion is a convenient band aid for it; a nice security blanket. However, it is a manufactured answer that leaves a lot to be desired by many.
Just like you can't find love. You find a person, then atrribute value and then act out that subjective evaluation. Do it or don't do it the world will still exist all the same. The difference is only you
@@YassenChapkanov If you’ve studied university-level philosophy (as I have) you’ll understand that until you understand language (ref. Ludwig Wittgenstein and “Linguistic Therapy”) your claim is too vague until you’ve defined and argued-for what “love” ‘is.’ “Something that you found.” Like … meaning / love / the meaning of love?
@@yinYangMountain Love is a multi stage physiological process that affects the functioning of the brain. It is in a mutually reinforcing / sabotaging loop with the psychological predispositions of the individual. To the extent you have control over those processes you are creating rather than discovering something that already exists. Something/ someone that you find outside yourself is an object or an idea (including that of love). But you never find love itself or meaning itself inside that external reality. You attribute the properties "loved" or "meaningful" to whatever you find. It can be expressed as a vector
"Non in dialecticā complacuit Deo salvum facere populum suum" - "It did not please God to save his people through rational propositions" - That's JH Newman's epigraph to his "Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent." He's quoting St Ambrose, the famous mentor of the even more famous St Augustine. Both Alex and John know this saying and I think they could have used it to sum up their conversation! 😊
A tangential thought: I wonder if/how this “crisis of meaning” is related to declining birth rates and the increasing financial difficulty of having a family. From anecdotal experience, many parents find purpose and meaning through their children, in fact I’d say that’s probably why many, if not most, people have them in the first place. I can see how the feeling that that dream is out of reach for many young people could lead to feelings of meaninglessness or despair. On the other hand, I can also see it being more of a symptom than a cause. Why would you have children if you believe you live a meaningless life in a meaningless world? I don’t know what the relationship between them is. This is really just a shout into the internet void.
Before realising the futility and meaninglessness of life, we chase these things. The inability to achieve them or the over-saturation from them after achieving them (disappointment in a marriage, or in raising children or disillusionement with a career etc) will both lead to nihilism as the values of yesterday become hollow
@@SFDestiny It doesn't "give" meaning. You were cared for because YOU were considered meaningful...whether it is true or not, someone(s) thought you were.
an evolutionary argument may be made for this, insofar as children "curing" meaninglessness would be advantageous for the continuation of the species. As in, a feeling of meaninglessness in the absence of children might have evolutionarily propagated due to it motivating getting children
When people struggle to "find meaning", all I can do is feel sorry for everyone around them, because meaning is derived from consciously loving other humans. Stubbornly, with all your heart, love them, even if they aren't acting lovable. Meaning is the easy part! ❤
@@zorandusic7079 loving people isnt meaningful, existence is only material, and material has no intrinsic or existential value. Love and relationships also pertain to material since relationships are based off of communicating about material, which has no intrinsic or existential value. if you dont care about material, then what is the substance of your relationship? existence has no meaning and its just hard for people accept it due to optimism bias .
"Because life is not a story, and we are hurting each other trying to tell it. And because life. Because time. Because this time you know, if you have words for it - do you hear me? - if you have words for it, it's probably not the new life standing there. ~ Joseph Fasano
Sam Harris says it best, meaning is just the friend of a distracted person, when one fully connects with experience as it is now, any need for an accompanying story falls away and the very concept of meaning shows itself to be meaningless
Beautifully said. Although after trying for 2 years, I was only able to briefly find calm and peace in the present moment. Quickly after which, I went to feel the uselessness of just sitting there.
@@User-actSpacing Interesting, I've never met anyone who has struggled as much. How did you practice and have you engaged with the theory of practice? Also, there is nothing useless about doing nothing, the whole concept of needing to do things is just an example of being lost in thought and disconnected from the present moment
It’s so true what Sam talks about, I’ve found so much more richness (notice I didn’t say meaning) in my life since I became open to experiencing my life as much _as it is_, as much as this is possible. I get a little closer to that, and sometimes a lot closer, by moving my attention beyond the narrative of the Christianity that I grew up with (or imposing any other dogma-based system).
We make our own meaning. “We are the COSMOS made conscious and life is the means by which the universe understands itself.” - Brian Cox What can be more meaningful than being alive.
But if you are going to die then it makes no difference if you die now or in 100years or even 1000years. We are all essentially dead and therefore there is only meaning in the eternal.
@@superepicness1554 , here is another thought that Neil DeGrasse Tyson has said. I will paraphrase and sure I will not do it justice: If you know you are going to live forever, why get up at all, you always have tomorrow. Because our lives are finite, that is what gives it meaning. Death makes being alive meaningful.
After "Mum" and "Dad" the next word most children say is "WHY". We incarnate with the purpose and intention to look for THE meaning. But looking for it via brain is a dead-end job.
_"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."_ *2 Cor 4 v 18*
Words have meaning, they represent things. What does the word meaning represent? The word tree means : a branchy wooden growth with leaves and roots. But what does a tree mean? Not the word, the thing? The word water means wet stuff, but what does this wet stuff mean? Like wise, we all have life, but what does this life mean? Just like water, it is it's own meaning.
@@AlbertoGarcia-wd7sc For reasons I don't understand, we need to matter, and that is usually conferred by another. We need to envision ourselves as having value or purpose, even if we don't. I think it's related to a moral sense. If we considered someone meaningless, we would annihilate them without a second thought... This is why we justify evil by conferring meaninglessness on our victims. If they were meaningful, we would be murderers.
Finally someone who gets it. The search for meaning is what the problem actually is because we perpetually have to chase something that leads to disappointment that never seems to be there! Getting out of this life with as little harm as possible is a noble and i'll argue only goal that exists given the nature of what our existence is!
21:02 this is precisely why it is of the utmost importance to investigate our actions and thoughts with a thorough scrutiny before we decide to put our foot down about how meaning /can be/. It is true that who you are concretely in the world is mostly a product of cultural norms. However, precisely because this is not all of what you are, with careful contemplation you can strip these cultural layers away and secure steadier foundations upon which to build your self purposefully. You must peel back the layers of what you think you are to reveal the core of what you must be in order to be at all.
It always feels like people are missing the point when they don't think about the evolutionary psychology behind our meaning/purpose instinct. This instinct is as purely socially mediated as other instincts like shame. If it wasn't then people who are very successful and respected at zero sum games like sports wouldn't be so high status. The meaning/purpose instinct exists in order to get people to do things that earn them status within their tribe, since that tends to increase their reproductive success for obvious reasons.
but whats the purpose of reproductive success when humanity, along with all over living organisms will go extinct along with earth itself when its completely engulfed and dissapears into the sun? and heat death of the universe entirely? surely humans have enough foresight to realize this by now? also what happens in the near distant future when the earth becomes even more uninhabitable? will humans remain selfish in their animalistic propensity to reproduce and bring their children into a hellscape for them to suffer? use your brain power to think into the future thats beyond yourself
Maybe "meaning" is like "happiness". It's a by product of living an actualized life. It's fleeting, it's brief but impactful and it kept you wanting more.
What is missing from the _"gambling for money allegory"_ where you want to get something you think will satisfy and which you can never get are both essential, is *TRUTH!* *Meaning* comes from discovering the truth about WHO YOU ARE. Which comes from discovering WHY YOU ARE HERE. Which comes from discovering WHERE YOU COME FROM. Which comes from God who alone can tell you WHERE YOU ARE GOING.
The only correction I would make on Alex at around the 13:30 mark is that the bible does have syllogisms of premises and conclusions. Whether if you can see or recognise them is a separate question but the form does exist. It is not correct to say that no one does not act in syllogistic ways because there does exist at least one person who does with respect to human analysis. I am one of those examples that would act or see the world in syllogisms. I would even argue that seeing the syllogisms of the universe would be the hidden code to mastering social/relational interaction. I speak like this because Professor John Vervaeke talks about Relevance Realisation and one of its fundamental ideas is to find the mechanism and better understanding of HOW we realize relevance. Organising information in syllogisms would be an aspect of applying Relevance Realisation. Another example to drive the point that we do see the universe in syllogisms is the fact that math is everywhere and although we cannot see the number physically we know of its existence in the abstract dimension and we can feel its presence in other subjects that we study. People do think and move in syllogistic ways because it is also linked to survival skills of braving the elements or even interacting with the environment.
Meaning is important, but it’s nuanced. Meaning is inherently dynamic, it’s not some “shining city on a hill.” It’s personal, it’s elusive but definable throughout our lives milestones. It’s basically a bunch of shit we’ve turned into some physical treasure to hunt for.
I don't understand when Alex says - "This is something religion does so well, it promises something that you cannot have until the end of your life". What exactly is religion promising?
I’m always drawn back to the simplicity of the ‘love God and love your neighbour as yourself’. I’m not a Christian so God, for me, is the consciousness that is so much larger than mine. After that, I think there is enormous pleasure, fulfilment and purpose in the intellectual unfolding of this love. When Alex speaks of narrative, I feel certain that he is referring to myth. I have come to think of myth, philosophy and religion as different expressions of the same thing. So we seem to be talking about value-laden stories and the meanings that we draw from them.
@@tonywallens217 i dont know why its so hard for some people to accept, probably due to the fact that we live in a society that still accepts religion as a viable outlook on life and the reinforcement of severe optimism bias through fables like fairy tales and again, religion.
@@theman12833 I know why its hard for people to accept. Because if life has no meaning, then we are aimless, purposeless, insignificant beings whose relationships, love, desires, actions, etc. don't matter. There is no beauty, no ugliness, no love, no joy, nothing transcendent, nothing. There is only illusion. Your wife is nothing, your kids are nothing. Their happiness is nothing. Your happiness is nothing. Your virtue is nothing, your vice is nothing. This is about the bleakest outlook on life one could have, and an honest person who holds this view can never admit to anything above the material, and even that is useless.
@@tonywallens217 they can matter in the sense if you want to live and die a comfortable life, it just doesnt objectively matter in the grand scheme of things, so ultimately youre not wrong at all
On John’s final point. I think it can work, “top down”. I believe that rich people are currently promoting new age philosophies and narratives, and it is growing, and it may look like a ground up movement, but I feel like it is entirely founded by depressed capitalists (CEOs, etc).
Please Connor I hope you see this, I am a very big fan of your videos and because of you I was an atheist for atleast a month until I got into a serious argument with some of my Christian freinds and it got me thinking really deep and I had to go do my own research and I discovered that science and evolution does not prove the first origin of life even if we evolve from something it had life which just leaves us with intelligent design because how can we explain trees, rocks and art these things are too intelligent to just happen by chance, and the Christian God of the bible just keeps contradicting himself saying one thing and doing another, claiming he is all powerful but limits himself, claiming he has no limitations but allows things for reasons that doesn't make sense at all. Which brings or brought me rather those the theory, what if God is real, he has no beginning has no end, he is infinite and is an uncoursed courser (like the atheism theory of the big bang) but what if this God is not all powerful and all knowing, he has feelings and flaws, he can make fatal mistakes, sometimes makes bad decisions which can explain the sufferings of this earth and I also discovered that there is a term for this believe which is (FINITE GODISM) what do you have to say about this? . I would really love if I get a reply for this thank you
I personally always say that everyone, even theists, make their own meaning. Theists just say that the meaning comes from God, not themselves, but usually they will also say that their interests and means of action coincide with his will, which is quite curious.
@@terrycruise-zd5tw yeah, but at least it's meaningful to you, it doesn't have to be for another one in the future. What matters to you now is what is truly meaningful
@@terrycruise-zd5tw That's just installing people's opinions and memories as the something bigger, and since living life to the best of my ability includes enriching and helping others when I am able, I disagree.
@@radualexa1356 if you have to create meaning for yourself then its just evidence that theres none there to begin with, youre attempting to fill a void with anything you can
OK then, you can borrow my elephant thong but I want it back by yesterday painted twice without changing its overall appearance. You can keep the overalls though, but only for a coconut while.
I think philosophy is kinda what you get when you learn to balance chaos and order but initially that “meaning” may come from experiencing them more independently kinda how kids are very active and play until they’re exhausted and then rest intensely. Eventually they learn and discover a middle ground between extreme play and intense rest so they start maturing and learn to optimize their life and that could become a framework for other forms of thinking. The struggle for meaning may come when you’re focused on optimization when you haven’t had that experience yet and learned to live with them.
I'm an objectivist who's never once experienced this "meaning crisis". I've taken responsibility for my life, my health, skillets and character. I'm free, happy and healthy. There is no meaning crisis, there's a responsibility crisis. I don't need myths, banners or tribe to excel. To suggest otherwise is collectivist weakness, and the abdication of responsibility. The irony to hear this bemoaning from the "rw" who lecture the room about "pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps". We need a real rw that doesn't rely on tribe, or force but the empowerment of the individual who engages with life.
@@quin2392 Oh no you're one of those people who think hard work is important. If I didn't ask to be here I will be as lazy as possible. Please never have kids they will hate their lives
@@PariahPsypomp6775 We need a real world that doesn't rely on tribe or Force? What planet are you referring to? Certainly it isn't the one I live on which is called Earth. It is in the Milky Way galaxy.
I think it’s the same old story- highly religious countries think that others are unable to find meaning because the only means of meaning has been religion.. if it doesn’t play a role y find your own flavour. Sometimes religion, other times your family other times pushing yourself somewhere.. my point is the standards of society often create a crisis that do not exist
Meaning isn't necessarily nessasary. The meaning of life is to live the best you can in what ever way you find meaningful. I invented a 6 word philosophy; Lean forward, harm none, love deep.
I was homeless, got into drugs, went into prisons, then i got to know Jesus, He changed my life.. Now i make 22k weekly. have a home, a wife, a lovely daughter... A child of God. HALLELUJAH
After I raised up to 325k trading with her I bought a new House and a car here in the states 🇺🇸🇺🇸 also paid for my daughter's surgery (Joey). Glory to God.shalom.
How can we have meaning? Do trees or rabbits have meaning? We may have purpose, or function. We may have kindness, happiness, sadness, misery. Love and passion. Where does "meaning" come into it?
Now that I know Alex with a moustache, I notice he's incredible hot and sexy without it. Maybe that was the tactic all along. To make us appreciate what was there all this time.
Alex says “Religion is the definition of something you don’t have now and for your entire life will not have, and yet believe that you can have and that thing is desirable.” This reminds me of a time when I was 13 or 14 years old. I was feeling down after a church service. I shared with my dad that I felt like religion was this thing that people did so they could get their ticket to heaven. It seemed like an act or a game, and it didn’t seem sincere. My dad told me that Jesus didn’t say that if we lived our life in such a way we would GO to heaven. He said Jesus encouraged us to live our lives in such a way that we would HAVE heaven. As I listen to Alex and John, although I admire the depth of their thoughts, I think they are trying too hard. I went to the store to buy milk for my kids yesterday. That was meaningful. I called my Mom this morning to wish her a happy birthday and ask how my stepfather was doing. That was meaningful. I gave my wife a kiss when she got home from work today, and we went out for Mexican food and margaritas. That was meaningful. Every little moment I help someone or be kind to someone, that’s meaningful. Every time I screw up and wish I hadn’t done something, and learn from my mistake, that’s meaningful.
Yes, the whole idea of "meaning" is largely foist upon us by religious type thinking. It is one of the ways religion continues to perpetuate itself in our modern world - by telling us we need something and then offering us what they tell us we need. It's all nonsense, of course.
@@Nai61ait does not perpetuate it inhabits.90% of history was in religion because sense of hopeless nihilism is the road to death philosophy dictates action
Alex! I think it’d be great if you could get Rupert Sheldrake on the pod one day. He’s a Cambridge educated biologist and taught at some of the most prestigious universities in the world, but ended up moving away from the materialist scientific dogma and now studies various subjects, including those related to parapsychology. The then-editor of Nature called his first book a “book for burning” when it came out. He has really interesting views on science and how it has gone from a method/process of inquiry to a belief system in itself, and likens bad science to bad religion. He also believes that consciousness extends beyond the mind and possibly beyond the body. He’d be a really interesting guest to have on the pod, a proper scientific ‘heretic’.
For those that always comment about making our own meaning, that is not the answer. It is a cope-out, make-belief. It simply means believing in a lie. If there is no cosmic meaning, then all our meanings are fairytales.. In face of great suffering and injustices, they will amount to 0.. And that is the problem here. A cosmic meaning would be a justification of the greatest of horrors and the value behind life's joys. Meaning truly is a reason why. And the cosmic meaning would be the answer to the why for all the suffering that is an inherent part of all life (i do not mean the how - pain as a warning mechanism etc -- i mean why exist in the first place and go through the unavoidable suffering)
@@TheHuxleyAgnostic Let's say that someone chooses sports as the meaning in his life. Or to built a family. Or to become a famous musician. Let's say he achieves that and feels fulfilled. Does that fact justify the innocent suffering of people and sentient animals in the aeons of life on this planet? Or to put it otherwise: given that innocent suffering and injustice will always be a part of this life, does one's satisfaction in sports or alcohol or sex or whatever, justify the perpetuation and acceptance of life and its horrors? Did people in the Auschwitz think that it is all good and justified given that before that experience they achieved their ''meanings''? Or would you say that many people came to the conclusion that it would have been better never to have existed? Of course subjective does not equate to non-existent. But subjective meaning is a psychological state. Cosmic meaning is the reason of all existence. These are 2 different notions. The video is talking for the cosmic philosophical meaning. That cannot be answered by a hobby, or money, or women or breaking the record in Pac-Man. These are all human nonsense to kill our time here because it appears we have nothing better to do. That better would be to align our lives with the cosmic meaning and serve it. But we cannot find said meaning, so we just go to Friday's and say that my life has meaning because i ate a nice steak and then i had sex with my girlfriend. This is just having fun. This is not meaning
@@nikosalexopoulos6542 He asked about "filling your soul". That is completely a question about the individual's subjectivity. Even if you find meaning in an actual fairytale, written thousands of years ago, that is also subjective, to you.
@@TheHuxleyAgnostic It is quite simple. If there is no cosmic meaning, then all life equates to 0. It means nothing. Thus all the parts of it will still amount to 0. You cannot expect to equate zero to a positive number. Your personal meanings are these positive numbers. But given that the truth is the zero, then you just believe or feel your meanings to be positive numbers. They are actually plain 0.. And that is the sad truth that people do not want to see because they want to keep enjoying this life crap like drug addicts hooked on their dose (tv, internet, porn, women, families, hobbies etc)...
The greatest struggle for most atheists, regardless of what is true or not is: The lack of sense of purpose. The feeling is worse when one gets older and close to death
Not really. It's there for everyone; it's just less painted over for the atheist. Most old people I know are religious and have had or are having some existential crisis now in their twilight. Those among them who aren't are just typically more active and involved in the business of doing. I understand that their long, productive life makes them feel more fulfilled and at ease with what they've done, whereas the others are in a panic. I was actually surprised that some close older folk who were religious are now some brand of agnostic or are dropping the spiritual identity for a mere belief in 'somethings out there' as they experience those around them pass. It was as if they'd suddenly come to terms with the thin veneer of their religion's mortality project. It wasn't what I expected at all, and their insistence to me now is no longer 'When are you going to church again' or 'What do you believe?' but 'When are you going to go on that grand trip you are always talking about?' That speaks more closely to the heart of the matter; it's as if someone is trying to get themselves into shape by watching RU-vid inspirational videos; they have it all backward; real inspiration comes from the doing, and real meaning and purpose come from the journey.
I'm an atheist, and my main drive has always been music and the arts. That's what I've always enjoyed and lived for - plus a ton of other hobbies. I've never struggled with meaning. To assume that I do, is completely ignorant on your part.
The greatest struggle for most Muslims is personal integrity, driven by fear. For classical Islam, what are the consequences of apostasy? What happens to non-believers after death?
@6:10 "Meaning has to be something like: a slight deceptive position of obtaining something you don't have, believing you can achieve it, and constantly not achieve it." Alex Oconnor
Thomas Jefferson, best known for authoring the Declaration of Independence in 1776, was 33 years old. Hardly a crazy old man. James Madison was 36 years old when he participated in the drafting of the US Constitution. By most standards, neither Jefferson and Madison were defintely not old white guys. Alex who is 25 year old might consider both in their 30s as over the hill and old. O'Connor has a brilliant and insightful mind. He's absolutely right that Americans have made sacred the Founding Fathers every word turning constitutional law into something between the Greek Oracle and Christianity.
6:28 I think with this idea of meaning Than I find meaning in myself, and the finding of more part of myself to love in everything So it’s in a sense this infinite search for more reflections, be that in mountains, people, or the stars
Here's some 'meaning' for you: Stay alive until you die. It works for 100% of all other life on Earth....and you don't hear them complaining about 'meaning'.
Identifying Happiness in something you don't have, believing you can achieve it, but then constantly not achieving it. This is really all it is, that is a fully satisfactory answer. Suggestions include: trying to learn a musical instrument, or some other form of art, or a physical sport, or reading into a field of science or literature that is beyond your current understanding. Not finding meaning in life is really, totally, and absolutely your fault.
I think that people make their own meaning, theists and atheists alike. The meaning comes from the person, the subject, so I agree with you there, but not everyone has this point of view so it might be difficult for them to make it.
actually, that's a great point, I think for some people, it comes naturally, and they just find it, but for most of us, one actually needs to put in the effort, it's actually hard work to keep yourself fulfilled, in my experience.
Atheism by itself doesn't give spiritual meaning, but there is an atheist non-secular religion which does. It's called Flawlessism, and it was founded in the past 10 years through a process of trial and error because it's not just a religion but also a philosophy. It was created by having the faith that life holds a flawlessly positive point to life, and then the rest was created entirely through philosophical reasoning. But to even have faith that life holds a flawlessly positive meaning requires philosophical reasoning because of the way Flawlessism is, and it explains that too. Thus why it's a philosophy and a religion. I really feel like the topic of Flawlessism could have really added to the discussion in a positive way, so it's a shame that so few people know about it.
