You forget to mention that most companies didn't made cheap mid-engine car is because safety. Transfer the engine and gearbox to the back will make most of the weight behind driver seat. So, when you got accident from front you will get a lot more damage and might die easily.
This boomer advocated for change 57 years ago! I was a model car building kid, and in 1964 I modified a model Corvette to be mid engine. It won a local contest and then got shipped to California to the Revell National contest. It won honorable mention. I still have the clipping out of the May 1965 issue of Car Model magazine. Guess I was a little ahead of my time. Love your channel!
Angel Gutierrez that’s not that often, most have the engine between the front wheels. Give me some common examples where the engine is behind the front axle.
All the manufacturers putting deadlines on switching to 100% electric makes me sad… need more funds to buy up all the classics I grew up with before they skyrocket even more in price!
I've had 2 different gen MR2's, SW20 & ZZW10. Needless to say, I hated driving the W10. It handled like absolute garbage but it was fun to sit in a drop-top MR2. On the other hand, the SW20 was incredible in every aspect. It's weird how polarizing both experiences were.
@@AdultsAreTalking Everyone I've read and seen review MR2's say that the zzw10 by far handles the best of the 3. You just don't like the look of it and probably drive with boxing gloves and bricks strapped to your feet lol.
@@AdultsAreTalking oooh riiiight so it's countless youtubers who'd owned and/or back-to-back compared, and trackday engineers, vs your 12vie tier take that matches your avatar, and I'm supposed to defer to you because "dO beTteR rEEEseaRCH"... **cringe**
could take c8 platform for that but to keep it affordable a cheeky srt4 engine in stripped down c8 platform could yield interesting results! inspiring idea Will :D
Didn't expect them to not mention while under braking, the mid engine layout also benefits tire traction for braking when weight shift to the front and spread the load more evenly for all 4 tires.
Polar moment of inertia in this example applies to the car's ability to turn not with acceleration. The rear engine weight on the back tires is what help acceleration but not moment of inertia.
MR2 is literally named for the formula. The closer the center of mass is to the center of the vehicle, the less torque is needed to rotate the car to yaw it.
I noticed this too. Very disappointing. Very embarrassing. Upsetting even that their viewers would be misled this way. The concept is correct but applied incorrectly. Jeremiah's other video with the basketball and broomstick was more sensible in conveying why a Starlet is harder to drift than a Chaser. Yaw is the point not power loss due to drivetrain length. And a driver generally has more time to feel and react to the longer car with higher polar moment and larger overhangs than the smaller car with lower polar moment and wheels set at the furthest corners: Chaser is easier. Flickable and responsive over stable is the recipe for race. The MR layout is for center of gravity, weight transfer, and power delivery (i.e. with least amount of loss to the drivetrain) optimizations. All this yields the most balanced use of the tires to go fast in spite of "stability sacrifices." Stability then comes from the driver's skill, aero, and nannies. Bad form, Guys.
and it's going away next year :( though it had a good run though & met Honda's initial sales expectations. That thing is a real gem and was a properly engineered sports car.
Damn, the whole crew at Donut really improved a lot. Nolan and James really got a lot more confident in their public speaking and presentation and it really does a lot for their content. Nolan is killing it, and so are all the other hosts and supporting staff at donut! 😃
@@bhr788 take off the van body and we got ourselves one last chance to make mid engined cars cheap again Not saying it would be any good, but fck it mid engined is mid engined
I bought an MR2 Spyder dirt cheap, and fell in love with it. Threw a hardtop on and looking at engine swaps. Thinking 2AR with some spooly boi’s for good measure.
The polar moment of inertia explanation is mostly okay except for how it applies to mid-engine cars. The advantage is for turning as the densest part of the car, the engine, is closer to where the car rotates for the turn. The front end being lighter is also helps with turning.
Just a small correction here: The Alfa Romeo 4C uses the engine found in the Alfa Romeo 159 1750 TBI, albeit with its own tune. And that is a FWD, transverse engined car. Love you Nolan, Donut and the whole team. You guys are the best!
It's cheap in that it's a bargain for a sports car of that performance, but you can't ever buy a truly cheap car anymore if you don't need the luxury or 500 horsepower.
@@DomzyDX well yeah but that doesn’t really count because we’re discussing new cars. by that logic I could say that this video is false because I could buy an mr2 for 5k
Jeremiah, your explanation of how the polar moment of inertia affects a car is incorrect and completely confusing. A lower polar moment helps with cornering (since the tires need less force to change orientation of the car). The weight distribution on the rear tires helps with acceleration (assuming RWD). You were mixing up a lot of things.
Yeah, he botched it pretty badly. He applied the concept to tire rotation, rather than car rotation on the horizontal plane. Almost seems like he just looked it up and made an assumption as to its application, rather than doing real research on it.
Also Jeremiah forgot that a car's constant variable is gravity and difference between MR and FR is the center of gravity which helps with cornering. Also car with a MR setup lose less power than FR due to the distance from the engine to the wheels.
Nolan: "I can't do science, here's a guy who can." Jeremiah: "Here's an animation where the car spins the WRONG DIRECTION for what I'm explaining." (Unless the car was in reverse gear.)
@@ol_smokey9370 there you go my Amigo... You & I have projects..my wife wants me to get the Fiero back on the road ..we had good times driving around when we first met..hoping to have good times again..✌👍
87 fiero here 😎 my uncle bought it off the dealership new back in the day and sold it to my dad years later then my father gave it to me on my 16th birthday. We recently took off the seat covers a couple years back and they looked like they barely got off the dealership. Beautiful car that I will keep for the rest of my life
Jeremiah got its point totally wrong. Mid-engine vehicles have lower YAW moment of inertia - looking at the car from the top, most of the mass is centralized. This means that less yaw moment (derived from tire contact patch forces) is needed to change the car's direction of travel, giving more responsive handling.
Almost as if the entire reason manufacturers make cars is to earn money... It's a frustrating reality, I'll agree with that, there's so many things I've thought of that would be so cool but clearly not economically viable. And who am I to talk, I drive an almost 50 year old car because nothing made more recently has interested me.
Even if Toyota did sell another MR2, you know they wouldn't build it themselves. If you want a sportscar built by Toyota these days, you have to buy a Lexus.
@@jimmy-buffett true. They probably would’ve collabed with lotus and likely given us something between an exige and an evora. Still would’ve been better than nothing tho
@@mikehawk6175 Especially if it has a Toyota powerplant, unlike the collaborations with Subaru (86) and BMW (Supra). Then the problem becomes how you price it less than the Supra (as the MR2 always was before). If it's more / better than the Supra then it starts to cut into Lexus RC-F sales, which seems to be why the Supra was given its current price/performance limitations.
@@jimmy-buffett yeah I think they are better off not making another mr2. Look at the supra lol. The ft1 concept looked ok but for some reason production new supra I have mixed feelings. But for some reason I like the c8 lol
Maybe I'm missing something. The entire car would never rotate instead on the wheel so the weight being further away would be negligible. I DO see how placing the weight closer to the traction point and more balance gained by being distributed more evenly throughout the vehicle would definitely have advantages in handling and performance but that's another story. By the way, EXCELLENT channel and graphics! I just found you guys and BOY do you explain concepts in a manner that's easy to understand. Subbed.
@@willedsmithmo Right? Emira are beautiful, both interior and exterior. IMO, pre-Emira models were so weight-stricted, the interior looks like a straight out race-car. It's cool but not appealing to masses. Clients were more to e.g Nissan GT-Rs, 'Ecoboost' Ford Mustangs, 'M-sport' BMWs, also an 'AMG-line' Mercedes'. These masses are the groups that only drive DCTs, and small-sized powerful engine, with high safety techs.
The Mach-E is probably a pretty decent vehicle, a good next step for Ford. But the Mustang name shalt not be applied to an SUV. I don't care whether it's electric or gas, the Mustang is a coupe, not an SUV. All I can figure is that they wanted to make a big splash, get people talking about it, and disparaging a legendary name is an effective way of doing that - in the world of marketing all publicity is good publicity, and this outrage sure has gotten people talking. Had they just made the "Mach-E" electric SUV (Tesla Model X competitor), just like a lot of other companies are these days, hardly anyone would have noticed.
5:01 My Ms3 is a 4th gear twisty road carving machine, Mazda is the company who could really do well making rwd mid engines and jump back into mazdaspeed with a fresh, non luxury line revived specifically for quick modular mid engines that come in awd, fwd, and rwd
Pretty sure the physics explanation was wrong. The benefit of having a lower moment of inertia is in the corners, by having the mass closer to the rear axle that isn’t turning, the front can go left and right without as much resistance, all they explained was that it’s easier to wheelie with a mid engine car lol.
I feel like all of the good stuff that we love about cars is going away. Being able to work on your own car, the analog feel, fun cars being somewhat affordable. Cars are becoming more like phones, and will soon be a subscription service.
If you want to work on your own car, then get involved politically on right to repair. If people just whine, then it won't happen Not sure about analogue feel since there have always been power assisted steering, and buttons have only went away with the tesla, many other makers still have it.
@@axeavier Also to prevent Car Manufacturers from Planning to Purposely make their Cars Obsolete in a couple of years. We need to be environmental, and frankly making more Cars isn't environmental as repairing or upgrading it yourself.
@@hectorvega621 making more cars whether it's EV or ICE will continue to happen but at least in the long run EV will have greater benefits. Nevertheless, repairing and buying better quality stuff is a good idea with everything. People keep buying trash made in china but there are many fantastic products made in USA, you just have to google it.
@@axeavier Honestly, not necessarily out of Quality of Product, but a Plus side. Having thing's built here does lower the Carbon emissions from less Transportation. I don't know about price, but hey, Quality does help make it worth. Plus Job's coming back.
i recently bought a 1985 fiero 2m4, and honestly ive never had so much fun in a compact 4 cylinder car. It makes me sad cause i know im likely never going to see a modern take on what makes the fiero so fun.
Nice, but you forgot the $18-27,000 Honda S660. Last of the affordable mid ship sports cars? Sadly discontinued after this year too. I’m lucky enough to have one and it’s absolutely a riot,
@@isk1tz It’s the SW20’s from the 90’s with the turbo motors, these are notorious for the snap oversteer, not the Mr-S or the AW-11 from the 80’s although it probably still happened too for the AW11 cars. However, the SW20 is the famous and most recognized generation of three thus the stereotype is more apparent to people.
@@isk1tz 2nd gen were the "snap oversteer." bunch. 1st gen handled AMAZING, and 3rd gen was one of the best handling cars to ever release during it's era and were praised by critics. 2nd gen chassis was not as good as 1st or 3rd gen in terms of handling. Again this was an affordable mid engine car, the focus wasn't to make a NSX track killer. Due to its somewhat snappy behavior inexperience drivers did not know how to handle it at its limits, and the media cry out how "dangerous" it was when really it was exaggerated. 93+ saw the "improvements" of the suspension to reduce "snap oversteer" while others believe it reduced the fun nature of the SW20. At the end of the day the SW20 snap oversteer is blown out of proportion and it is a fun car to handle because it requires but more attention to the drivers inputs. Most SW20 owners have wider tires, bigger wheels, and good tires that "snap oversteer" isn't an issue anymore. It just has the usual mid-engine characteristic of when it begins to slide out you have to react faster than let's say a FR layout. Source: I owned a SW20. Never had an issue with oversteer. Just learn how to drive a mid-engine car. Most common mistake I see people make is not giving the car constant throttle in corners. Constant throttle keeps weight on the rear tires. ~brake before the corner, throttle through~ not ~ride the brakes half way through the corner then gas it~ that's a bad habit.
@@jpleon314 i got a 1993 mr2 turbo myself and never had any snap oversteer i had the back break out but never it snapping. but if i remember correctly you could get the car pre 93 with a 2.2 heavy lazyboi engine and no rear swaybar which didn't help with handling.
I have a very strong feeling that the I.C.E age isn’t over. All of this hype and bullshit surrounding EV’s might sound and look like it’s the “last hurrah.” But I have hope and faith. Please pray
Agreed, there’s been huge advancements in synthetic fuels, that’ll most likely grow most in diesel machines (tractors, trucks etc.). EV’s look like they’re here to stay, but I cannot see them taking over the entire car industry until huge battery advancements are made
I had hoped we would be able to save the I.C.E. with renewable fuels. Now I worry we won't save ourselves. As for the switch we used whale oil lamps until kerosene lamps were better and we used those until gas lamps and those until lightbulbs (lightbulbs inherited their thread type from gas lamp fixtures and it was easy to pull the wire through the old gas lines). We used steam engines until gasoline and diesel engines were more practical.
If Toyota would release a new version of the MR2, they'll probably partner with Porsche to do it, and depending on what power train they'll put in it, it still won't be cheap. Just saying.
60K GBP Which will probably equate to around $75k USD when it crosses the pond. Also the base spec is almost always unavailable by dealers and mostly only used for marketing purposes..
Thank you Marco. I was appalled when I saw what they put up. At first I thought it was part of a joke. Pitch is relatively unimportant in cars. Yaw is really important. Roll is important, but generally height of center of gravity is the design issue there. Lots of attitude here, not so much clarity of understanding of chassis dynamics.
Miss the days when Japanese companies were more passionate, I mean only those guys and maybe Dodge and Chevy are the only brands I can think of which have cheap fast cars made for enthusiasts
i was surprised to hear their explanation but it makes sense, but am v surprised they didn;t mention u want weight toward the rear for better handling (neutral is best but faster to have slight oversteer than understeer)
Sw10 & 20 are some of the most beautiful cars ever made imo. The fact that they were more or less everyman cars was even better. Car brands barely even make sports cars anymore, even if we consider hot hatches. Yeah...the era of affordable mid-engine cars or even affordable sports cars is over
You have to remember that the corvette is a constant evolution. To me it’s the only car that is consistently changing the way the car looks. Also, the marketing team sounds lazy. ‘We can’t sell a car no one knows about….’. Isn’t that their entire job?
I'm open to EV's once they come down in price. Some irony in the comment's section about boomers being resistant to change when this is true for most of the car community. (and people in general)
Its because ICE cars give plenty of things to be modified. Engine swap, custom exhaust, custom turbo setup, etc. But, in an EV. What awesome modification are there to do? Body kits maybe? Changing the motors? You have to pray that other manufacturers doesn't pull a Tesla. And allows it. I'm not 100% against EV. But, by the looks of it ICE will slowly but surely be completely ban someday. That makes me feel a little bit salty about EVs.
@@user-zc2hz3yj2k Motor recoiling, magnet swap, rewiring of batteries and motors for greater power flow, etc. Electric drivetrain is more complicated than it seems (although still simpler than ICE, in terms of amount of moving parts).
Mustang did introduce a turbo 4 in the 80's and trans am had the v6 turbo. Also for a moment Pontiac thought about moving their pony car to front wheel drive. But your point has been made
The Fiero platform is EXTREAMLY underrated. Yes, it was the partsbin GM car to end all partsbin GM cars... damn near every part on the car can be traced to some other random GM vehicle. But the modern benefits to that is that, despite most company's not specifically keeping parts for Fiero's (because they are kinda weird) they almost always have something for the cars that the Fiero's use parts from. I have been able to keep mine going by getting all sorts of random weird parts in this way. Even better, since darn near everything GM is interchangeable... you want to upgrade something? Just slap a larger/higher performance item on from a better car. Everything from the brakes to the engines works this way in a Fiero. Want bigger brakes? Bolt on some Corvette brakes... want more power? Swap for a larger engine. Mine has a 3.4L, but their are kits where you can basically direct drop in a SBC with minimal effort... and because of that, you could technically just drop in a Stroked 454 SBC into a tiny mid engine sports car. Think about that insanity for a second...
As a poor prelude owner, im glad theyre front wheel drive, because of the prelude was rwd they would be 50,000 dollars now. Theyre a wonderful car. But my 1985 prelude is a forgotten relic thankfully because the drifters and teenagers that wreck cars went to other platforms
@@AntiActionFox thank god they are cause i can get a civic or del sol for cheap, but if i try and get a 240SX or miata there 15k for 170k miles, auto transmission and missing bumpers.
Honda S660 owner here in Japan. I can vouch that this is fun-as-heck to corner, even if the engine's only 0.6l (though turbocharged with a properly loud BOV, mind you).
9:10 - The EV transition is more than anything due to government regulations making MPG unrealistic. It's one of the reasons why cars are getting more and more expensive that require substantial car loans.
I’m sure that’s a factor but I’m confident that it has more to do with shifting markets, the success of Tesla, and the simplicity of electric cars. If you look at 9:26 you can see the drivetrain comprising of just the battery and motor. Once you have the manufacturing for those components figured out it’s a super simple vehicle to design.
Up here in the great white north we typically pronounce it Se-lee-ka (Celica) at least on the west coast. When I briefly lived in USA people had no idea what I was talking about so I had to sprechen it as Sell-ica. Given its I believe latin for Celestial it makes sense..then there's the Delica...
Donut: We'll just throw in this news clipping of the Emira Lotus: Look at our affordable mid engine car! Donut: Wait, that doesn't match the title Donut: DON'T mention the EMIRA!
Owned an SW20 Toyota MR2 for 18 months a couple of years ago. Best car I ever had. Reliable, good looking, fun, easy to use, and the new kids thought it was some expensive exotic Lotus is making as close as we'll ever see: The Emira, has a supercharged mid-engine Toyota V6
I like the fact that Nolan mentioned "retail" when he talked about the prices to point out the fact that the prices have been inflated by the market, and its no longer the price it was.
they used the wrong pictures for the 3rd gen mr2 engine and the lotus elise. They showed the 2zz engine for the mr2 spyder, when it should be a 1zz, and the garbage british 1.8 for the lotus, when it should be the 2zz :) The Celica GT and MR2 Spyder got the 1ZZ-FED, while the Lotus Elise, Matrix XRS, Celica GTS, and Pontiac Vibe GT got the 2ZZ
In Italy, originally, we have the 1750 tbi 4 banger (the engine of the alfa romeo 4c) in front wheel drive cars like the alfa romeo Giulietta and the 159. So that's is in fact a real og front wheel drive based engine. Swaps with that are quite common in abarth, both in the grande punto and punto evo and in the 595/695 because it's fits like the 1.4 tjet engine.
What are you guys talking about? The Corvette is literally a Ferrari 458 you can grab for 60k. The Porsche Cayman also starts at 60k, and the Boxster at 71k. They're 50% more expensive than the inflated price of a cheap midship car from the 1990s, yes, but you get way more power and much better handling.
"Even a full spec'd sw20 mr2 turbo from 1989" SW20's didn't get made until 1990, 1989 was the AW11. And those didn't come turbo'd; they had a supercharger option.
I really hope Porsche gets that artificial fuel going so the ICE doesn't die out entirely, even though that idea has been floated before and only had partial (and very costly) success
Don't be afraid of progress. In long terms cars have always been getting better, faster, more fun to drive. Not long ago some enthusiasts were complaining about turbocharged engines being less responsive, sounding worse and generally being not car-enthusiastly enough. Now almost all performance cars have turbocharged engines and they're doing great. Unlike early turbo engines that did lag EVs are already better than gas cars in many regards such as they accelerate faster and have low center of gravity that makes them handle a little bit better. They can even make sound. I don't mean the fake engine noise, I mean you can hrar the aerodynanic sound a little better in an electric car. Isn't it cool to hear how the wind goes faster and faster around the cabin as you accelerate?
@@ldmtag You're right, we should accept what's in front of us while celebrating what's behind us. I guess we should be glad we are perhaps living in a time when the ICE has reached its finest moment before the handoff to electric and battery power.
Yea man, when cars shift to electric, many tuning companies will shift to electronics, and although it would be very expensive for everyone, it would still be cool to see
@@BurnPerimeter why you think it would be very expensive? Doing a full battery+power electronics swap is about equivalent to engine+transmission+ a bunch of controllers swap. Sounds about the same in terms of cost to me.
Artificial fuel is so inefficient in comparison to electric that I see us keep using petrol cars being more likely than that shitty artificial fuel lmfao
Oh and if all of you ppl forgot about it, there was the Honda S660 that was a cheap mid engined car. The problem is that it has just recently got axed off production
@@RainDropBlopper well it’s gonna be my summer / weekend car , got Mazda 6 2020 for daily lol and not sure how auto v6 gonna be want manual but after driving Supra auto zf8 speed I can’t go back to manual. And don’t want that unreliable amg engine seems like a ticking time bomb with all that power
@@bradseeker heck yes! Well now is 2021 Supra and Mazda 6 lol 😂 but emira I want looks krazy exactly like a proper supercar, I think it’s save to say it’s exotic car might not be the fastest but definitely has the looks and ingredients
