Why YOU should be using the Pathfinder 2E Free Archetype! 

Yes exactly! Both the munchkin And the actor can live in harmony!

We ABSOLUTELY agree!

You have seen the way. 🤘😎

It absolutely can be. If that's what your worried about, we'd suggest running a game with a unified archetype. Something like everyone gets the pirate archetype for free. Something along those lines. By limiting the choice space, it becomes a lot more palatable for new players to a game.

Yaaaa I'm thinking about that because they're all villains working against the Church of Razmir. (Super cool country btw)

Ooooooo We LOVE Razmiran.

If they are new players, then the Ancestry/Heritage/Class options should be plenty to differentiate with. After a half-dozen PC builds down the line (when things start getting a little samey-samey for them) may be a fan-tastic time to introduce Archetypes! OR If a player says "hey, I have this crazy idea for a wizard that uses shadow magic instead of regular magic...how can I build that?" then you can show them the archetype. my two coppers.

This is probably the greatest reason to NOT implement the free archetype. If your players are new or if you are get used to the base game for the campaign or two, then when you think you're ready level it up! We highly recommend you check out pathbuilder, It makes building characters, especially ones with these free archetypes much easier.

This is absolutely true, and I believe we did add a caveat about being able to Target weaknesses. We've found after extensive testing that you rarely need to change encounter balance. The edge is small, and often it just makes for a better, more engaging game when your players can target weaknesses. I mean it's no fun when, for instance, you throw a swarm at a party with no AoE damage...

@@goblinsalvagerites I agree with you. But that kind of thing with swarms only happens with pre-writen modules. As a gm you can tailor the combat to make some classes feel more special, not to punish players. I mostly run homebrew adventures in the Golarion setting (love Ustalav), but i know that some adventures can frustrate some players like Slithering. The most important rule about the system is writen in its firsts pages: "the game is yours, use as much or as little that you want to acheive a fun game" or something like that.. :) Nice discussion!

You two just made something click in my brain so I'monna drop it here: * I feel that the most satisfying sessions are those that are built around character sheets * I feel that the least satisfying character builds are those that are built around sessions...with on-off convention-style scenarios being the exception.

@@erikellis4766 Can you clarify what you mean about the 2nd point? The first point makes sense to me, I assume you are referring to the GM taking into account character builds when planning encounters and not throwing something at the players they just have no tools to handle. The 2nd I'm less clear on. When I have a session 0 for a campaign, I definitely want to make sure my players make characters that fit the world. A wilderness druid isn't or ranger won't necessarily do well in a city campaign...or a mountain dwarf specced for underground exploration may not be best for a sea faring campaign.

So that's the stands, at second level and every even level thereafter you get a free feat that can only be used for archetypes. If you want to change your archetype you can following the normal rules. Are you suggesting a second additional free archetype feat at 10th level?

After taking 2 feats from an archetype (plus the dedication), you can then take another dedication feat for another archetype

We think there is a stark difference between power and versatility. The free archetype system gives you access to more versatility, power is getting more +1s, ECT. Now an argument could be made that there are a few archetypes that give power in the form of action economy. But at the end of the day each player gets access to these options and thus internal party balance isn't affected. External party balance might be affected but in our extensive experience we haven't found that it changes the classification of the encounter. Meaning a moderate encounter is now considered easy because of the archetype.

​@@goblinsalvagerites Still, those with free archetypes inherently have more options available than those without.

It’s not really that much more powerful, and everyone gets it so it doesn’t unbalance the party

Hmmmmm that's an interesting idea. Pf2e has a tiered power scale for feats. They don't say it explicitly but it's implied by the fact that you can "trade down" in some instances. Class feats at the top with skill feats at the bottom. Archetype feats are often less impactful than class feats with a few exceptions.

Yes each feat costs one feat slot, but your 10th level feats don’t fit in 1st level slots, and your Ancestry feats don’t fit in Class feat slots, etc, so they have an inherent “rarity” to them (in addition to the mechanical rarity, which is more of a GM shorthand for restricting options). So when you get a 20th level class feat, you know you’re getting something fantastic.

That's a great way to put it!

How so?

Correct 💯!

Some archetypes also have skill feats, so you could actually progress a little faster than that if that was your goal. I have a level 20 build with 4 archetypes, if I remember correctly (Magic Warrior, Wrestler, Ritualist, and Horizon Walker)

@@AlexPBenton *Golf Clap*

Absolutely it's not for everyone or every game, in our pretty extensive experience using the rule. It hasn't changed game balance at all, at least we have never had to make encounters more difficult because of it.

Hmmmm that's an interesting take. I guess we've never had that issue before in our group. But generally we find people are pretty multidimensional, and thus characters tend to be as well.

I think you are already only allowed one multiclass archetype

Thanks for your feedback! Well try to make more in-depth videos on the topic in the future.

Narrator: but it was, in fact, how it worked.

@@goblinsalvagerites And hell I thought 5e was bad.

It’s an optional rule that the GM can use. It’s like any other optional rule. Flanking in 5e, for instance, it doesn’t cost anything for the players if the GM uses that ruling.

It's really important that we define what we mean by "balance". If we mean internal party balance, each player being about as strong as the other as to not outshine, then yes everyone getting the same amount of resources is balanced. If we're defining balance as combat balance, We can safely say given our experience playing the game since it's inception that the free archetype system does not make you so much more powerful that it significantly alters the encounter creation process. Meaning we don't really have to account for it when designing our encounters. And I know that sounds crazy at first, but when you look under the hood of the game system, It begins to make a lot of sense. The proficiency system coupled with three action economy creates a dynamic where giving your players more options doesn't necessarily increase their ability to defeat an encounter in combat. Some archetypes do give you more action economy and that is clearly adding power to the player in combat because action economy is the name of the game, however, as we stated earlier, it doesn't seem to affect the encounter creation bounds. Moderate or severe encounters are still the same. If you're really worried about it breaking your game, we recommend trying it out. But in the encounter design section add one more player to the table. So if the encounter is balanced around four players balance around five. But again, in our experience this isn't necessary. We hope that helps clarify what we meant! Every rule isn't right for every table, we just really enjoy this one.

@@goblinsalvagerites I think there is a bit of a difference in the axis we're considering. You seem to be focused on comparing players to the encounters they face. I'm comparing players to other players. I mean, one player at the table having a free archetype, and another player does not. There's a discrepancy there, is there not?

Ohhhhh I see the confusion. Every player at the table gets access to a free feat at second level and every level thereafter. That feat can only be used for archetypes. Some archetypes are tuned towards combat a little more than others, but at the end of the day each player gets to choose. A Cool idea is to give each player the same archetype. Like the pirate archetype for skulls and shackles.

@@goblinsalvagerites Well I haven't actually started to play this yet. But I think introducing this option, at least from the onset, isn't fair to people who have some choice paralysis.

Removing options to all players on the basis of one player’s inability to make a decision isn’t fair either. Can’t please everyone. It’s reasonable to say that if players consult with one another (and their GM) before gametime then they can parse builds together and no-one has to feel cheated since this isn’t a dog-eat-dog competitive tournament ruleset like MtG.

To each there own, thanks for giving your perspective!

Yea it's definitely not for every table. RULE #1: PLAY THE GAME YOU WANT! 😁