Books mentioned in Episode: *The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis amzn.to/3w84HR7 *The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien amzn.to/3Ieumup (Contains affiliate links)
At this point, I agree that when God separated light from darkness that is when he fell. Fascinating to think about! So glad I found your channel. Blessings to you.
Most definitely! He is a great guy and I love how he approaches Scripture. My degree is in Biblical Studies so I love the connected patterns we see in Scripture with the symbolic world of the Church Fathers, the Middle Ages, and today w/ Lewis & Tolkien. Do you have a favorite video or article by him?
I think the first key is Gen 1: 29-30. In the Garden of Eden, animals as well as humans, only ate plants. No sentient being had to consume another sentient being for survival. It’s reasonable to suppose that meant perfect harmony, absence of suffering. And then everything gets corrupted after the Fall. So it somehow seems to be caused by the Fall of man. How exactly, I don’t know.
I am open to several possibilities when it comes to origins and Scripture. Where does it say animals only ate plants? Of course, there was no human death and they were immortal, but did God make animals immortal without death? Also, wouldn't eating a plant = plant death? Lots of questions! I have an open mind
”And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.“ Genesis 1:29-30 ESV God gave the “green plants” to the animals for food - in other words, only the plants, not each other. And for humans, only plants too. God didn’t create the consumption of animals by each other or by humans, which means this must be a result of the corruption at the Fall. Whether as a direct result of Original Sin or somehow indirectly through Lucifer, I don’t know. Plant death doesn’t count as death, as plants don’t have the “breath of life” - they are not sentient beings. Whether animals had eternal life in the Garden of Eden, I don’t know, I don’t think Genesis says anything about that. But my guess is yes, since it was perfect harmony, that’s the whole point of the Garden of Eden - death would disrupt the harmony. I’m not a theologian, just my two cents.
@@matefazekas3107I think this is right. I’ve thought this for a while. I’ve heard a great deal of speculation about animal death, usually in the context of the “evolution debate,” and this is never discussed. I don’t God created death at all in the world. Anywhere. For any creatures.
If I heard you correctly, I think you got Isaiah and Ezekiel backwards. Ezekiel pretty clearly is speaking of a fall of the gods after the creation of humans. But I also think this is the case with Isaiah. "How are you cut down, you who laid the nations low!" (14:12). The most natural reading is that he was laying the nations low before he was cut down. Was he doing that on behalf of God, or is that the reason he was cut down? I won't speculate there. I guess I've always suspected that the assembly of the divine council where God takes the gods to task and kicks at least some of them off the Council for not doing their job is a result of Isa. 14. While that's a position many Orthodox hold, I think that was first presented to me in seminary by Prof. Johanna Bos, back when I only had a vague idea that Orthodoxy existed, so it's not just an Orthodox speculation. There's a least a handful of western and Protestant scholars who have resisted Milton's interpretation that Lewis follows.
I wasn't personally advocating for Lewis' perspective which is why I presented both East and Western views. The dominant Western perspective is that Satan fell before Adam. The dominant Eastern perspective seems to be after. Fr. De Young and Dr. Michael Heiser seem to speak along similar lines when it comes to the Divine Council and the fall. I'm cool with that perspective for sure. I'll make a Part 2 if you want to dialogue more. I was mostly just contrasting a couple of different perspectives.
I was going to mention the Tolkien connection. I do feel the fall of Satan directly influences the fall of everything else. He, who was created to wonderfully and beautifully a destiny to give the truest and most profound praise in love of God, and yet he chose to glorify himself. Truly, if such a creature as him can fall with such a beautiful destiny made for him it really shows how the rest of creation can fall all the more easily. Satan had a sense of his destiny and denied it, we have no sense of our destiny. I believe Satan fell only a few "moments" after his creation. He fell to an ego drama that he then superimposed on the rest of creation. He wasn't and isn't content to reject God, but wants others to fall in the same way, perhaps to in some way justify his own fall.
Too many people are convinced satan and Lucifer are the same person… who is “the accuser “ that’s in the divine council testing Job? Literally the same exact being who tempted them in the garden? If so then where did he go as punishment? He fell? Then he tempted them in the garden and was forced to crawl? Then he still had a position in the divine council? Was he punished further for testing Job? People are so confident in their theology. Even the church Father’s have no apostolic succession of knowledge on this. They through their own meditation come to their own conclusions and clearly disagree.
@@barrelagedfaith I think you might be on to something. Michael Heiser had a lot of insight, but didn’t have the foundation of the Church to ground him. I think many Protestants who have learned these things struggle making it work for them because it’s divorced from the actual spiritual reality. Also, I really appreciate your channel. God bless you in your endeavors. ☦️
I'm with you Bryan. As Fr Stephen de Young says, we get most of our theology about Satan/the Accuser/the Daystar, etc. from Milton, not the Bible. Furthermore, given that scripture doesn't say, all this speculation seems silly.
@@justanotherjim Well, I totally agree with that comment and I am definitely in the realm of theological speculation. However, Fr. Stephen De Young probably does take the words of St. Ephrem of Syria seriously that I used in the video. Fr. De Young actually engages in a ton of theological speculation in the Lord of Spirits! So this video is made in that spirit for sure.
