For a moment there I did think, "why is the batter walking toward 3rd, he needs to to take his base at 1st" And what do ya know, he needed to touch 1st.
@@jcole_4542 I mean if the team had come back and won after that definitely or even made it close but eh. Love the jomboy channel even tho it’s all ads now but this I don’t think should make the cut. Guess we will see tho!
This ruling was overturned, for the record. The umpires got together and ruled that the winning run had scored and the game was over. From an article from the Press Times: "The Pirates tagged first base for the second out, but after a short discussion by the umpires, they ruled the 11th run scored because Vande Berg was only the second out of the inning. “I was reaching for anything I could get and didn’t want it to end,” Knutson said of the play. “We got the ball to first and got the out. It was the correct call.”
And the mistake that was probably made was that the Pirates should have appealed to 3rd base and then 2nd, because it sounds like none of the other base runners (other than the guy crossing home plate) advanced after the walk, like they had to do. I think the Pirates tagging 1st base nullified any force play to the runners who were already on 1st and 2nd base, so the runners who were on 1st and 2nd were no longer required to advance. Had the appeal gone to 3rd and 2nd, it would have been a double play and since they had to advance, the run shouldn't count? Much like if it was hit to 3rd and the 3rd baseman touches 3rd and throws to 2nd for a DP, run crossing home plate doesn't count.
Still, this feels weird. Multiple runners abandoned their base, but the game ends because the defense did not throw to third base to start the appeal even though the rulebook says all runner must advance to the next base.
Under NFHS rules, in a bases-loaded walk-off walk, hbp, etc. where the batter-runner is awarded 1B without liability to be put out, ALL runners must touch their next base or they may be put out on appeal. Any such outs on appeal for failure to touch a base to which the runner is forced are considered force outs, and if such out is the 3rd out of the inning no runs may score. Under OBR only the runner from 3B is required to touch home and the batter-runner must touch 1B; the other runners do not need to touch.
you are correct but when they appealed to first and was called out that removed the force at the other bases which then made the 3rd out a timing play which means the run counts.
So let me be nit picky here, if the first appeal is to first base, wouldn’t that then get rid of a force to second? So in other words in order to get a double play in this situation, would the appeals need to be to second or third (given r1 or r2 didn’t touch) before first? I’m just curious.
Another thing to note, unless there has been a rule change, a player can't intentionally remove their helmet during a live play (I believe this is only the case in high school). The runner on 3rd was out before he touched home due to the helmet flip before touching he plate.
In high school a runner removing the helmet does not result in an out. And the order of the appeal is critical. If BR is appealed first that removes the force from the other bases. Also its not base abandon until they enter the dugout.
The opponent did everything they should have done. No guarantee you can't come back. If anything, shows you compete until the end. The champions should be emarassed.
Except that it was only the 2nd out and the game-winning run was awarded after the umps discussed it. The video leaves out that part. But it's in the title: "end of game."
This is a time when celebrating is much more important that actually winning the game and doing what is expected of you i.e., walking to first base on a ball 4
Show the entire video 🙄. The umpires determined that the run that crossed the plate counted and the game was over. I don’t about the rules of high school baseball but I seen this on the news and read it in the paper stating the run indeed counted ending the game.
They're using the 10-run mercy rule in the state championship? That seems weird. My state actually doesn't use the 10-run rule for any games, which can be painful at times... but using it post-season play just seems wrong.
I guess CIF is an outlier then. I'd prefer we use it for regular season games, but when it comes to post-season and especially finals, I think every team deserves every chance to come back, and the winning team should have to win the WHOLE game.
The problem with plays like this in baseball and other sports are that the athletes are more interested in celebrating than in doing the right thing. They need to be coached to finish the play!!!!!
The runner touching home plate ended the game right then and there regardless of whether the batter-runner touched first because of the 10 run rule. If it had not been the 10th run, then outs might have been called and/or run not scored. - former WIAA baseball umpire
@@homerhaulman1113 usually abandonment is a timing call, and not a force, but I can see if the rule is different regarding awarded bases - what citation is it, if you have it handy?
@@adamwatkins1150 thanks for playing! We have a lovely parting gift for you- a rule book. Official baseball rule 4.09 - How a Team Scores. One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first second, third, and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. Exception: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made. 1) By the batter/ runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner being declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases. All force outs are counted before runs. If a runner is out on appeal and he was forced to advance at the time of the pitch and the result of the pitch, and he is the third or fourth out of the inning, no run can score. It’s a foundational baseball rule. This scenario is not a timing play.
Doubt it, but its possible. These boys have been playing and watching baseball most of their young lives and would/should know the rule. Most likely they got caught up in the moment and had a collective "brain fart".
@@andrewpulda7969 When I played in high school, I hit a ball a mile with the bases loaded in a tie game, but it was caught. On the way home, my dad said "if it dropped, you know you'd have to touch 1st, right". I actually didn't know.
Mercy rules have long been used in high-school, college, & international amateur baseball & softball. Under some rule codes, it is invoked at 8 runs rather than 10. Big late-inning comebacks are basically so rare in amateur baseball & softball that it's not worth it to risk player injuries, etc., for a game that's all but out of reach.
Just spitballing here, (I have no experience with NFHS rule set) because the camera doesn't give us a consistent view of the field. Hear me out, though... There's 1 out when the walk is issued. The appeal is made at first base (as decided by the defense). This can be considered a force out on appeal. However, as soon as U1 calls BR out (for out #2), there are no more force plays. Since there are no more force plays, R3 scoring before the 3rd out means that all of this ends up being moot. 11-1 mercy rule win with 2 outs in the home half of the 5th. The result doesn't change. So... what was the final decision?
There is a separate rule regarding ball four situations. In said rule it stipulates that all runners must touch their bases in this situation or be out on appeal. I get what you're talking about, but that reasoning does not apply here because it's appeals at this point not initial plays.
TRue. Order of appeal is most important. If BR is appealed first that removes all forces at other bases and run counts because at that time it becomes a timing play.
If a player starts in T ball, around 4 year old, they can learn most or all the rules in 10 years. If they start later the good players will pick it up in a snap. To learn the basics, it doesn't take long at all. To learn every rule, it takes years and years because some rules are only brought up in certain situations.
Along my comment, when starting out every coach says the same things. Run to first. Never stop hustling to the bases. Always pay attention. Hit your cutoff man. Throw the ball in, don't just hold on to it. Do kids do that stuff? No, they think they know it all because it's the situation they're in. You can teach the kids all you want but in the heat of the moment a brain fart or two is going to happen
@@lousassle9387 Yes, of course you’re right. Baseball has any number of obscure rulings over very unlikely situations most of us will never experience. And kids should be excused for not knowing most of these rules. But if there’s a ‘10 Commandments’ of baseball, “Thou Shalt Always Run To 1st” is high on that list. Especially if you’re old enough to know better.
Regardless of outcome (The run still counted), this is a prime example of the need to remain calm until the job is done. Had the winning team showed any class, this wouldn't have been an issue
They just won a state championship (first ever, on first try btw)…and because they celebrated - like all championship teams do at every level - you think it’s classless? I’m not going back and forth with you but you sound like a sore loser, my guy…
You folks need reading comprehension. I stated til the job is done. I've won on a multitude of stages during my lifetime, in different sports. I know what it's like to be on both sides of the field, and with that being said...waiting for the umpire to call the game, and doing your job on the field until the game is called, is critical. Teach your children to finish before celebrating...I guess that's troll advice now 🙄
The game ended here after this play. Umpires conferenced, then conferenced with managers, and the game was called. Don’t have an explanation as to the call. www.wclo.com/episode/6-16-22-hs-boys-baseball-wiaa-state-championship-game-milton-vs-bay-port/
You're correct. I'm wondering if the runners on 1st and 2nd did touch? Must have. With only one out, the run still scores. The radio broadcast said they touched 1st and threw to 3rd. Maybe they determined that R2 touched 3rd? Or maybe the losing manager just conceded... If that's even a thing? Weird
because ego and celebrating have become more important than making basic plays as required by the RULES (at any level, but usually some sort of amateur level). yes, it's 60% bad coaching; but the individual player assumes the other 40%. i have seen this type of play happen at least six times in my 24 year of umpiring amateur baseball; and it NEVER surprises me. my crew and i wait until the required time/occurrences and then we ENFORCE THE APPLICABLE RULING. and of course, we become the bad guys. why would anybody EVER think that a walk-off OR game-ending third out situation change the basic rules of the game?
No, it was a bases-loaded walk-off walk; all runners must touch their next base or may be put out on appeal. None of the runners touched other than R3, so there were apparently 2 force outs on appeal which ended the inning and no run scored
@@davej3781 doesn’t matter the the runner didn’t touch first. They only had one out. The runner on third jogged home and basically stole home. With the batter not touching first base which i think was correct call it should be only two outs. Question is rather ump called time out. Interesting play.
@@kevinmeyer8068 under NFHS rules, in this situation all runners must touch their next base or may be put out upon appeal. this is different than the OBR rule where only the batter-runner and R3 must touch. so they could get a double-play on appeal and prevent the run from scoring. however, since my original comments it's been reported that the game was allowed to end with the run scoring. it's unclear why, whether it was a ruling by the umpires to score the run or if the defense essentially said "nevermind, let's go home". since visiting team was being 10-runned, they may have felt continuing the game under such a technicality wasn't worth it
@@davej3781 seems they let run score because R3 had to move up. When batter didn't touch first that was second out. I believe runner on first also didn’t touch 2nd. Catcher was smart to throw to first but should have gone to 2nd then first to get double play. Crazy around play.
Merkle was the victim of bad umpiring because what he did was quite normal. Chicago second baseman Johnny Evers had convinced a single umpire to enforce the letter of the rulebook, and that umpire happened to be assigned to that game. It is never a good thing when one official has a different interpretation of a commonly-called rule. Similarly, there was a single umpire who didn't allow the "neighborhood play" right before a rules change made the play unnecessary. Not good.
Pathetic that a team that wins a State Championship - at any level - has a player that doesnt know he has to go to first base on a walk. A better ending was for them to lose after that.
So I play slow pitch softball and similar thing happened. Guy got hit and the guy on first never went to second. They were called out and then we put up 13 in the top of 8th and it was a wrap. Of course the other moaned groaned and bitched. Very simple though. Go touch the bag
Nope. If the third out is made at first, or anywhere before the runner crosses the plate, the run doesn't count. If he leaves the basepath before touching first, he gives himself up, even on a BB. Run definitely doesn't count.
Anyone who has a clue about the rules of baseball should know that abandonment while forced is a force, and is not an appeal play. The run should not have counted.
Batter is out. But they can’t turn a double play because the runner from third touched home before any other out was made. Doesn’t make a difference, ball game.
In this situation it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that the defense appeal correctly. Words and how they are spoken matter... I will explain: In NFHS we have spoken appeals. The coach or any defender can simply state their case to the umpires. College and pro have a playing appeal with a thrown ball. In NCAA & OBR the verbal appeal may accompany the physical appeal for clarity, but there must be a ball and a touch of a base or runner. In high school only a verbal is needed. Now let's just say the bases were loaded with nobody out. But only the runner at 3rd (R3) advanced and touched home plate. In college and pro the defense would have to throw to 3rd, 2nd, then 1st to get the force play triple play. Pretty obvious if you think about it for more than 3 seconds. However, what would someone say? Not do, what would you or me or anyone say? They would say: "Blue, I want to appeal that the runners never touched 1st, 2nd & 3rd." "Coach, what did you say?" "You heard me, I want to appeal that the runners never touched 1st, 2nd & 3rd." "So you're telling me you want to appeal a non touch, non advance to 1st, 2nd & 3rd right?" "Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying." "OK, then the batter-runner is out for not touching 1st. The runner who never advanced to 2nd as well as the runner who never advanced to 3rd are safe! Because the force play was removed when the batter-runner was declared out!" The game is still over and you still lose." Learn how to speak correctly next time because words and how you say them and speak them actually matter. WORDS MATTER.
it's called "BASEball"..... let me guess. you also think that someone who has a breakaway run for a touchdown shouldn't have to actually CROSS the GOAL LINE...
Maybe if you understood the rules, baseball would be better for you. The umpires were correct in this instance. I have no idea whether or not they can screw in a lightbulb
