And then Diogenes plucked a chicken and brought it into Plato’s Academy, saying, “Behold! I’ve brought you a man.” After this incident, “with broad flat nails” was added to Plato’s definition. Diogenes is probably one of the most entertaining Greek philosophers to read about.
@@philosophicaljay3449 every time I see this I have to spread the mental image of Diogenes spiking the plucked chicken like a football.. I'm not sorry.
I want to correct you slightly Ocean, structures such as the Stonhenge are not classified as mesolithic but as megalithic, and they largely originate from the neolithic period.
Megaliths refere to structures and mesolithic referes to a time period. Mega (big/huge/large) lithic (stone/of stone) meso (middle/mid) lithic. True what eejay says most megaliths are from the neolithic era neo meaning... well I think you are not stupid haha
look, can I just say that as a person who has always felt an attraction to norse paganism but avoided it because of the far-right connotations? it is EXTREMELY gratifying to see two big burly viking looking dudes listening with rapt attention and obvious appreciation to a woman explain something she's obviously passionate and knowledgeable about. this is something I really needed to see today.
Why does it matter what the guys look like? I’m sure they wouldn’t hangout with actual Vikings from the past because, you know, the raping and pillaging and plundering. I HATE when people ask if I’m a “Viking”. And if you did some research on the Germanic tribes, you’d find how important and revered women are. I always tell people to read Tacitus’s book and what he wrote about them.
@@ThePacificNorseWest87 ...okay my guy. Maybe it's because I live on the internet and usually when a bearded cishet white guy on youtube is talking to or about a woman it doesn't go well. But go on with yourself.
Odinists/heathen are often doing online battles supporting the existence of female warriors/shieldmaidens in history, usually against Christian nationalists. Even stay at home Nordic wives took over all aspects of farm management, including leading men in defense if attacked while their husbands were away. Sagas from the history of Iceland record some very interesting examples of women who not only held control over property but a Machiavellian ability to control and manipulate men. Many potential "Queen Elizabeths" in Nordic history ;)
I saw one of his videos before Ocean in my recommendations and it kept popping up but I'd just ignore it because for whatever reason it just didn't feel like something I'd want to watch then after awhile one of Oceans videos popped up and I clicked right away and thought oh this sounds interesting I'm very interested in learning more about Modern day Paganism especially Norse since I'm mainly Scandinavian and Icelandic.
Look, the Lokean community has less racists and transphobes than the rest of the heathen community and we more actively kick racists and transphobes out of our spaces. Don't blame Loki for this.
Wow, I am so glad I came across this video. I´m completely new to all this when it comes to norse paganism and WoO was one of the most recommended people/channels to go to about norse paganism and I was beginning to watch his stuff. You all saved me from all the garbage and toxicity. I sensed something was off with him, but couldn´t quite pinpoint it as I´m so new to all this. And also having grown up in a VERY strict christian/southern baptist/creationist home, I´ve learned so much more than just about norse paganism, I´ve FINALLY had all my questions about evolution answered and it all makes so much sense now and I wonder how I could have EVER believed all the bullshit I was taught all my life. Thank you so so much, I can´t express it enough, I feel like these are the answers I´ve been looking for all my life. I don´t have social media but I definitely subscribed on youtube and followed on twitch (when money isn´t so tight I´ll subscribe there as well to support you as best I can). I´m glad now that I have a source rooted in science and facts to learn from and officially start my journey into paganism. Thank you again and I look so forward to watching all your previous videos to learn more and all the ones to come in the future!!
Wow this was almost my exact experience of coming to Heathenry and leaving the church. I’m glad I found Ocean quickly because I almost went down the WoO rabbit hole.
@@hurriquainehogan3749 I cam a cross his content when youtube recommend him to me. I immediately got suspicious vibes and when I found his video about thor dressing as a woman so that he could take back his phalis/hammer as nothing more than a silly story, I knew there was something seriously wrong with him. He's like a covert nazi prick if you will.
@@reneevrs check out AronRa if you want to better learn about evolution and hoe to debunk pseudoscience amd creationist claims. He's a very kind man despite what many will want you to believe l. He is very critical about religion but having grown up isn't a strict Christian home, I can understand why. I used to support his content for a year or so until money got tight. I've spoken with him on a few occasions and he was nothing but upstanding and compassionate
As a newer Heathen, and one who used to follow WOO let me tell you your videos on him are everything I’ve been thinking and it gladdens me to know that I’m not the only one who sees through him. He’s a threat to the Heathen community and the gods see it.
I am super new to this, finding my roots back to Sweden just 4 generations back and they never left until coming to America in the early 1900s, i found WOO and liked his videos then found this channel and I think I am lucky I found them in the same few weeks so as not to follow WOO and his teaching to the note. 🙂🤘🏻
“It gladdens me to know that Odin prepares for a feast. Soon I shall be drinking ale from curved horns. This hero that comes into Valhalla does not lament his death! I shall not enter Odin’s hall with fear. There I shall wait for my sons to join me. And when they do, I will bask in their tales of triumph. The Aesir will welcome me! My death comes without apology! And I welcome the valkyries to summon me home!“
I remember watching a show along the lines of Ancient Aliens, focusing specifically on the Giza Pyramids, and they had a bunch of ancient alien theorists talking about how all of the blocks had exact measurements that could only be determined using higher mathematics that hadn't been invented yet, and it was just 45 - 50 minutes of all that, and then at the end they have this one guy who only has the one line during the whole show say "Well they could have used a wheel to make those measurements." That had me laughing so hard for so long because it makes so much sense and is so simple.
I actually had a bad experience with WoO as he actually condemned me for my struggles with what to believe in and basically insulted me for being on edge with my pagan beliefs and he basically pushed me out the community. I dont want to talk bad about anyone in this faith but i feel theres a darker side of him that really misrepresents this community
Just starting my Pagan journey after years of being an atheist...his channel damn near halted that journey in its tracks. Very happy to have found channels like yours Wolf's, Scarlet Ravenswood, etc.
I'm right there with Red on conspiracy theories, they are fun and good for a laugh. It's a sign of an intelligent mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it.
@@WolfTheRed yeah I feel like things like the moon landing being a hoax or even 9/11 being an inside job could be interesting thought experiments and actually act as a bit of a check on major events as well. Kind of like a puzzle where you just ask "assuming for the sake of argument we can't simply take official reports at their word, what can we figure out from the available evidence that will help us confirm or refute what the official story is, and then is there any good counterarguments to what we find. But then some people just have to take them so much farther. 🤦♀️
The term "conspiracy theory" was created by the CIA to bring a negative connotation to alternative ideas that are not considered mainstream. Just think about that
@@johnmarston8868 If someone can just barf out any idea and it sounds good because of how alarming it is that it gets covered up so well, and maybe because it'd be cool, there's probably some holes in the knowledge acquisition. Just think about that. Consider what you're saying. You're trying to argue that conspiracy theory is a bad word as to say... What exactly? Because they're not laughable because of a label. They're laughable because they're absurd historically, internally structurally, in terms of evidence, in terms of absurd levels of coordination, cover up assertions. Conspiracy theories are full of holes, and fall flat, and that's the problem, that simple.
You talking about Jotun actually reminds me! In Shintoism, the difference between kami and yokai is mainly in term of interaction with humans - kami are revered, while yokai are usually seen as anywhere between nuisances to threats. Some kami, like a specific rive rkami, are still feared for wild temper, but are still revered for bringing food and water. So it works kinda the same between gods and jotun - similar sorts, but different from their interaction
Thank you for calling out Ancient Aliens. I find that theory to be arrogant and insulting. We may not know how humans built something and we definitely don't know everything about the past, but that doesn't mean humans in the past weren't brilliant or maybe even knew things we don't.
It's on the top of her head. Ocean's hair is more dense, hence why it's more affected by gravity and is lower on his head than is typical for most people lmao
This was so great and such a treat to see Lindsey!!!!! I came late and had to pause frequently to care for kids, but this discussion was such f***ing dynamite that I had to drink it to the last drop. Mooooooooooaaaaarrrrrrr of thiiiiiiiiiiiisssss!!!!!!!!!
If his social media comment sections and Discord are any indication, I see an incredible amount of sycophantic behavior with WOO's community. So many Yes "Men" (Women, People) who desperately crave his approval and desire to be acknowledged. Of course, it could also be that he just attracts a lot of ignorant or gullible people who believe and agree with anything they hear and don't come up with their own insights/speculations, but those two things can overlap.
I've noticed small asatru groups like his are filled with people i would consider less than sane...like people that fantasize about having sex with animals...also lots of young people with identity issues as well and psycho, emotional issues...I have never seen so many weird people huddled together in my life. It makes me want to distance myself from groups and just stay solitary in my practice.
All groups do at least a bit of that. It's what groups are for they give stability. What groups teach whether it is true or not doesn't matter for the followers as soon as they trust the leading ppl. I do not believe that there are complete exceptions to that. All groups are like that. If they want to be like that or not they are like that
I think its more that his videos are very personal. He takes his viewers out into the forest with him to leave offerings and shows how he prays. What his alter looks like, etc I think people who are new and not sure how to begin are drawn to those kinds of videos. I am a museum educator in my job and the visual aspect of learning is HUGE for connecting with your audience, especially for those who have no prior knowledge. Essentially, he found a marketing esthetic.
I think you have a point! I've been following WOO for about a year and I'm really scared of disagreeing with anyone's opinion, even if i dont tell anyone about it. I guess his channel ends up at the people that are most likely to listen to him and believe him
Instead of putting him down why don’t you try to help? Bc you’re not serious about community or anything the Norse believe in. Your just a fake and it shows.
Our version of Mammoth Cave here in South Africa is Sterkfontein cave if you live near Johannesburg. I'm pretty sure most schools send their kids there at least once if they can afford it. You can see where they excavated the Australopithecus fossil Little Foot and for a short time they even displayed the Homo Naledi fossils. So I would definitely recommend it if anyone has a chance to visit SA.
@@njordfreyasson141 you're an atheo-pagan, aren't you? Please keep that to yourself if so. Some of us obviously have actually had/have relationships with one of, a few of, or even alot of the gods. If you haven't had actual commune with the gods, that's ok, but please don't interpret other people's experiences, and beliefs/practices.
I'm really glad I found your channel -- I had been watching WoO on RU-vid, but since I don't have social media, I would have never known of his actions. Your channel taught me more about Norse faith in a day than his did in two weeks.
@@anointingofseer2596 What do you mean by "post-haste"? Also, I mean that although I watched many of WoO's videos, I still struggling to find any answers to anything. But when I found Ocean's videos, I learned how a pagan prays, the different kinds of theism, etc...
Ok.... I'm not a pagan or a heathen, I'm agnostic. But I'm really drawn to this channel, mostly because of how cool the people are :) edit: So, on the topic of the head gods: this is very close to what I believed in before I became agnostic: that all the gods are just archetypes that roughly correspondent to each other (although not entirely). It was a belief leaning very heavily on Ceremonial Magick, symbolism, Kabbalah and my own brand of planetary magick. The closest thing to a "god" I perceived was just the ineffable light which contained all the multitudes of good and evil and basically the entirely of reality within, and it was simply broken down into 7 core principles. So in this video I can't tell if this is somehow.... considered bizarre? Why would it be bizarre? I understand polytheists and heathens obviously base their faith on pre-existing practices and myths, but what's so bizarre about lumping gods together? The actual myths are mostly irrelevant, because when you worship archetypes you *do not* care about myths. It's much more abstract than that, it's not supposed to correspond perfectly. I'm a bit confused haha, I thought the channel was mostly inclusive of different ideas and I'm perplexed to see this being an issue of some kind xD
im actually of a very similar mindset to you but im certain that with nuances there would be many differences. I think, for me at least, being aware of archetypes or even the fact that those archetypes further are just an aspect of the one "thing" , which u can call it god if you like but i see it as the only thing that is and everything else is from it and as such are it, I think the specific myths and gods arise to serve the purpose of connecting us to that one incomprehensible whole. The Myths and the specific gods allow for a more personal connection that you form as you learn of the gods stories and who they were specifically. the differences between freyja and sekhmet/bastet give those godesses each a unique feeling even though there are so many correlations indicating an archetypal commonality
Kind of off topic and maybe it's rude, but I have to ask do you spell magic with a k because you are into Black Metal? It's okay if you are or aren't I like some bands but probably one of my least favorite subgenres of Metal, but anyway the reason I ask is they spell it with a k and really love to switch u for v and c for k like it's a meme to say trve kvlt at this point.
@@Werewolf914 many occultist have spelled it with a k. Aliester Crowley being among them. It's a modern thing that i can't remember the details of but most occultist have adopted it
It’s looked down upon in the polytheist community because that’s not polytheist. Though, I wouldnt say that’s the biggest issue people have a problem with. Saying all gods are archetypes of one god or Hathor is the same as Venus ignores unique details and cultural differences between them. I’ve seen people use this mindset as justification to ignoring the culture. If say ignoring the myths is purposefully culturally ignorant and historically ignorant. Of course, this only is relevant when you say you’re worshipping a specific god like Hathor. I’d say culture context is pretty big with understanding the gods- the reasons on how they act, why priests did certain things, how to be respectful to them. The “how to be respectful to them” is a big part in highlighting. Different cultures have different ways of being respectful to the gods. Anyways- I’m saying people who get into polytheist spaces and say they can worship goddesses like Hathor but ignore the historical ways to be respectful get looked down upon. It’s like getting into a group just to say i don’t respect your gods. It’s not bizarre. That’s a common ideology. Historically gods were synchronised from different cultures to combine gods (commonly between Egypt and Rome). There was still a level of cultural respect there. I hope this explains things!
Unfortunately WoO was the first channel I found when getting into paganism, thankfully I found a link for oceans channel in the comments section of one of Jacob's videos
Worried about the rewatch timer. Hah! I scoff in the face of two hours and eighteen minutes. I might be in the minority, but I love longform content. Besides, I learned so damn much!
Omg this colab is fantastic. I'm always thrilled when channels I'm newer to are recommending channels I follow and know are good or working with people who run channels I know are good. It's nice to have confirmation that folks I get a good vibe from are legit chill/open minded/anti bigotry, etc, etc, etc. Most of the pagans I follow are witchcraft channels run by enbies or women and a disturbing number of channels run by men give me a bad vibe. Thanks for being such a good example to others in the community and for being as outspoken as you are against pseudoscience and bigotry.
I think that the "Thor is Zeus is Jupiter" thing is probably a leftover bit of that weird Roman syncretism, sort of like when they decided that Lugh/Lleu Llaw Gyffes is actually Mercury/Hermes Trismegistus
It's interpretatio Romana. The Greeks did it with their gods, and Germanic peoples did it with their gods. Gods are identified by similar attributes, a lot of ancient societies were syncretic. Identifying your gods with gods of other religions was common practice. It was a way of understanding different cultures and traditions. But gods have been syncreticized in art, such as Hermanubis (the head of Anubis and the body of Hermes), or the Greco-Buddhism and Greco-Buddhist art of Hercules as Vajrapati protecting the Buddha. sphereandsundry.com/product-category/reduced-price/hermanubis/ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3ABuddha-Vajrapani-Herakles.JPG
@@CassandraPantaristi There's also the inverse of syncretism; when cultures themselves split into multiple descendant ones, or spread their ideas to other cultures, both the details of the myths and the names would change too. In many cases the gods that seem similar between cultures also have linguistically similar names, suggesting that religion and language evolved more or less together, but there are of course also instances of myths crossing language lines.
@@NovaSaber That's what happened with Hellenism. Ancient Greek culture has massive influence from the polytheistic Near Eastern cultures (Mesopotamia, Egypt, Anatolia, etc.). This is why Ancient Greek religion is seldom used as a source for Indo-European religious studies and reconstruction. There's not much Indo-European material to work with, other than some things like the Gigantomachy and the succession of the old giant gods to the new generation of gods, Chaoskampf myth in which the thunder god/hero battles the serpent that represents chaos, Zeus is descendant of Dyēus Pətḗr (Ζεύ Πάτερ), the theft of fire myth of Prometheus, half-man half-horse beings (the Greek Centaur, the Russian Polkan, and the Indian Kinnara), Satyrs, the Ages of Man and cyclical time, reincarnation (though more a thing in Greek philosophy), and I think there's some other IE material to extract, but I can't think of anything else at the moment.
Try wrapping your head around this, The Romans thought Hermes was bloody Odin. They have nothing in common other then there hat staff combo and there role as psychopomps.
Listening to the discussion of human evolution reminds me of how much I loved my physical anthropology course in college 😊 I love anthropology and archaeology
So jotun are basically like TES Daedra? In the respect that "Aedra" means "our ancestors," means the gods whose concern is mortals, and "Daedra" means "not our ancestors," and are chiefly concerned with personal power and using mortals as a resource?
No, not really. They're like the Giants of Skyrim. Ehlnofey. Jotunn origins are from the corpse of Ymir, whose dismembered body parts were used to create the world (sound familiar?). They're not men, elves or dwarves; they're their own thing.
Then there's an interpretation I've seen where the Jotun aren't necessarily giants, but are representative of inescapable or immeasurably powerful forces of nature. In one of the stories of the poetic edda, Thor meets and does battles of various kinds with several Jotun, and they end up revealing themselves to be hinted at as things like old age or the voracious hunger of a wildfire. Not entirely sure if that has bearing on your question. But it's an interesting interpretation that I quite like, what little I've seen of it myself
Sorry I missed the stream, man. Am watching/listening now as I am getting ready for work. I can tell just from the title, I’ma be screaming at the screen here in a bit.
I'm glad I found your channel, I had started listening to WoO, but I ended up listening to one of his videos about how men aren't men any more and heard him start saying a lot of stuff that was like oh there's the red flags. Your channel has been much more educational than his was
You know that feeling when your spidey senses are tingling because something is not quite right? I got that feeling watching woo. I wasn’t paying enough attention to his content to catch it all so thanks for scribbling over it all with a bright yellow highlighter.
As a fellow history-nerd pagan RU-vidr, I just want to say, thank you from saving me from Jacob's channel, LOL. I stumbled upon him a few months ago, and at first I liked some of his videos, but once I started doing some deep dives on his channel in prep for maybe interviewing him for my channel, I found some of yours, and wow... on the surface he seems so welcoming and cool, but you dig just a little and BAM, racist, possible Trump-supporting conspiracy theorist. Thank you so much for putting all the GOOD info on the internet to help combat his crap.
I'm a trump supporting pagan we aren't all racists just putting that out there lol. Not a conspiracy theorist just facts do me just fine. I hope you have a great day 😃
Being a Dane I've always found it weird that Jotun is translated as Giants. In our folklore there's Jætte (what Jotun is translated from) and Kæmper (Giants in Danish) which where separate beings.
So in regards to WoO's video of the giant map, i havent see his full video, and while i do understand your points. I wouldnt say him reaching out to the source and not getting a response is his idea of having the source confirmed. He may think that, but i personally feel that that disclaimer is there to inform the audience that everything in his video should be taken with a grain of salt. Again, i havent seen the full video, so he may have said something else that changes the context, but based on that little snippet, it sounds like hes just saying, "hey, this is a cool and interesting thing. Not sure if its real and cant confirm it, but hey, what if?"
I got a Wisdom of Odin video suggested to me last night by the algorithm. I was like "Ah okay, little woo but not everyone’s got the same approach." about his signs from the gods video so looks like I'm buckled in to see where this goes!
omg wolf the hand in your background scared the shit out of me lol. Goodness I'm so happy I found you guys over WoO and Erika seems pretty cool off to check her channel out.
I've noticed small asatru groups like his are filled with people i would consider less than sane...like people that fantasize about having sex with animals...also lots of young people with identity issues as well and psycho, emotional issues...I have never seen so many weird people huddled together in my life. It makes me want to distance myself from groups and just stay solitary in my practice.
His missing link speech gives me major Futurama vibes when the orangutan denies evolution in favor of creationism because of a single missing link, despite all other evidence. And that just makes me laugh.
I always found Ancient Aliens simultaneously unintentionally amusing and outrageously frustrating to listen to but I will say that they have this much going for them: The idea that ancient aliens influenced human civilization and was mistaken for gods make more sense than that gods did it.
Bro all I'm saying, WoO once tried to claim that Ymir (the giant that was murdered by Odin and his brothers to create midgard) was Thea, and that the atmosphere was the shield that the gods put around midgard. I would not take anything he says seriously at all. We already have enough christian conspiracy theorists we don't need to start adding norse ones to the mix too.
When I explain things like Stonehenge and the pyramids and monolithic building to people who ask about them I usually just tell them "Think of all the things you would do if you didn't have to go work for someone else all week for the rest of your life."
Honestly a little sad. I thoroughly loved the stream and will definitely subscribe, but I'm a bit disappointed in Wisdom of Odin. I'm new to this whole spiritual journey and he was the first person I'd found that expressed a desire to combine his heritage and lineage in North America as much as his Pagan roots. If anyone knows of others that feel that way, I'd much appreciate a point in a less psuedoscience-y direction 😊
WoO very much strikes me as someone that is narcissistic at their core level. He seems to believe that he can not only speak for the Gods (and has even claimed he was directed by Odin himself to make his channel) but that he can also rewrite the mythos and the stories of the Gods. Rubs me the wrong way.
Nice learning from you guys 🙂 Always good stuff with Erika (cool with points of interest crossover). That woo guy sounds a lot like SFT. Both the way he talks and the voice. Good or bad thing they don't look alike enough to be the same?
I'm glad I came across this video. I saw a few videos on Wisdom of Odin's channel, and at first, what I saw was very similar to how I already live. There were some things I didn't agree with, like saying to put your phone down when you go out into nature, (I go out in nature and I take pictures and videos and still feel the divine presence) but one thing that I oppose is pseudoscience. I don't need a butchered version of science and history to revere the natural world. When you remove all the pseudoscience and revised history, you begin to understand the Old Gods as they are.
See the "put the phone away" thing I can get, because while pictures can capture it clearly, there's a certain romance in using memory. Most of the other arguments he uses are dogshite tho
I love when she said "it makes you wonder if the education level has gone past middle school biology" and then lists off a ton of words I have never heard before. I might be dumb, but at least I know we are monke
The tool making definition has been changed for being unique to humans. It was: Only humans make tools. It is now: Only humans make tools with other tools. I'm not so sure humans are the only species that can express empathy through space, time and reality. I forget the name of the documentary but it had a group of chimps with 2 of them being very close friends and 1 of the 2 close friends was beat to death by the rest of the group, the surviving chimp showed clear signs of distress and grief for weeks. Their would also be moments were that distress would seem notably worse whenever that chimp visited areas it spent time with that friend and not in the spot that friend died. While I can't be inside the mind of that chimp it showed signs of what could be construed as empathy across space and time. I'd also argue that more mammals beyond primates are capable of in the moment empathy and for that matter some birds seem to be capable of at least in the moment empathy. Didn't realize Bonobos would have sex with each other immediately after fighting each other consistently. I knew they were generally very horny but had no idea it was that extreme lmao. Go go Godzilla.
I don't mind WoO. To me, a lot of his 'theories' are like fan fiction. I'm not a part of his 'community' so I don't know what's going on there. I don't think he is a grifter, as that seems to imply malicious intent.
I see a parallel between the three families of norse deities and their three social classes. Aesir- Wealthy, nobility, warriors Vanir-farmers,tradesmen, ect. Jotun-servants, slaves
The only giant in America that I have heard of is Jutaculla or Tsul 'Kalu "slanted-eyed" or "sloping giant." He's described as a giant, from Cherokee legend. He's said to dwell in a place called Tsunegun'yi, which is said to be in North Carolina. There's also a rock nearby "Jutaculla Old Fields" in Jackson County in North Carolina with strange carvings. These markings are said to have been made by the giant when he would jump from his home on the mountain to the creek below. There's burial mounds here, but I never heard of mosoleums here 🤔. Nope.
On the topic of ancient aliens, it depends on how far someone is into it. Some actually do go as far to say literally every megalithic structure was made by aliens. My biggest issue with it is the relabeling of the gods, "oh they aren't gods, they were aliens", honestly it kind of angers me.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to find out that apes are just an offshoot and we're actually descended from humungous northern proto-humans Warcraft style. I'm just gonna need a lil' more.
I think it's also important to keep perspective that so many of the megalithic structures all over the world are things our ancestors built, but we cannot figure out how, and couldn't do the same today. I think that's amazing and speaks to a level of cultural sophistication that we have lost along our course. Best evidence points to global cataclysms leaving advanced umanity in a reduced state with every cycle of destruction and resurgence.
Hello greetings from the future, what fantastic content! I am learning so much, and I really appreciate your approaches on these things. Thank you again for sharing hope to be on the live the next time yall get together 🙏🏽
