Women In Ministry (PART 3): With Dr. Craig Keener 

I'm really enjoying this video. My husband and I keep pausing the video every 30 seconds to discuss. Thank you so much for doing this 6 part women in ministry session. We've been searching to understand what is the truth on this issue, to make sure we can honour God in whatever we do and in whatever community we join. We've greatly benefited from spurred on conversation from these videos. Keep it up!

4 minutes in and he breaks my mind. Amazing! To look at it not as necessarily “egalitarian” but “mutual submission” or the “gifts of the Spirit” are for everybody. Wow that really helps me think through things in a different light

Great interview! Dr. Keener is one of my favorite scholars. So thank you! And I love and appreciate how you both conducted the interview. And that you allowed Dr.Keener to do most of the talking!😉😊 Great job guys... I will be tuning in to more episodes 😊

I❤ Craig Keener ❤❤

I am convinced that part of this is absolutely about Holy Spirit revelation. Craig has the heart of God. Thank you for him Lord. Was troubled by the Complimentarian video so went back to watch Craig again and gosh the Holy Spirit is just making it so obvious to me. Thank You Jesus

Enjoyed this! Dr. Keener speaks with such grace and authority. My absolute favorite scholar.

I really want to hear more conversations with you guys and Dr Keener where he can dig into more specific verses and reasons for the egalitarian view. I'll check out his book as well. Thank you for having such thought provoking discussions. I'm really surprised by some of the negative comments and I hope they don't discourage you guys. You are appreciated!

Can we get a Kenner vs. MacArthur debate? I would pay money to see it.

This was outstanding. Thank you! 💕❤️💕

Great interview, thank you!

In your last question, if men were uneducated then they would be told they couldn't teach The issue was the women were available with a house as a widow AND they were uneducated so didn't know the teaching was erroneous. That was the issue. Not gender. And in the issue of eldership men were the ones who were in those positions again, because the women were playing catch up like the sixth grader. That's the difference. In our society women are educated. So telling them not to teach because they are uneducated and easily duped or whatever is irrelevant. In fact, it should be that male or female, if someone is ignorant on scripture, they shouldn't be teaching. Which is our actual issue in this generation.

Thanx, Gentlemen 🌹🌹🌹

I didn't know you guys had this series! I'm 8 minutes in and super interested in watching this!

I really appreciate how you guys approach this as a secondary issue, and that you (Josh) have attended egalitarian and taught at egalitarian churches, while holding a complementarian view. I currently attend a complementarian church (Pastor is sort of borderline hyper patriarchal with some of his views) that views egalitarian theology as heresy. I wish there was more of a balance in our church regarding that - or just more of a respect for the differing side.

Craig Keener, Dr. Keener, you’re so nice. Pt. 1. God bless you

9:25 Headcoverings 22:40 main point; why ordaining women

Maybe I missed it but, while they talked a bit about women being deceived they didn't really deal with the reason Paul gives for not allowing women to teach or have authority over men. In 1 Timothy 2 Paul says the reason is because Adam was formed first then Eve. That reason can't be reconciled with a claim that this is strictly a cultural issue. I love Dr. Keener and his material has been very helpful to me, but he doesn't make the case on this issue. The discussion quickly strayed from the text and there wasn't much strength shown for the egalitarian position.

Even if they can't teach, they can testify, come on now. Testify, sisters!

When we use commentaries the author of that commentary is looking at more than just the inductive method to understand the text. A good commentator will consider all the things that separate us from understanding the text. We don't speak Greek, we don't live in their time, we don't have the same culture or cultural issues, we don't have the same customs, etc. A good commentator will look at all these areas which separate us from the text and bring them forward for our understanding. Our problems arise when we attempt to answer questions we have in our culture which are never addressed in the Scripture.

Like Dr.Keener

Gossip is not a good thing. But keep gossiping about things that you weren't there for. And I'll continue watching this video

Re: Isaiah 3:12, check out the LXX. The word for creditor and woman has the same Hebrew consonants, but differs on the vowels. The LXX represents a translation of an alternate reading.

Amen on the point that it wouldn’t have been appropriate for a woman to travel with men. There were many disciples who were women who followed Jesus, but it was absolutely unthinkable for a woman to travel with men in pairs. Also, women would have needed to take care of family at home. That was a no-brainer for the time.

It seems like the question at the end went unanswered. Keener seems to admit that with the micro-financing example that they shouldn't exclude men with track records of responsibility, but wouldn't that contradict the idea of Paul taking the stance he does towards all women in the context be at odds with this if only certain weak-willed women are being targeted? Really appreciated this question but unfortunate that it was the last one asked as it seems like egalitarians do make a kind of one way argument and truly wouldn't be comfortable applying these kinds of discernment questions in different cultures even assuming it was a clear problem. Personally I really do think Paul is teaching Elders should be married; some of the credentials that follow relate directly to their having proven that they are capable husbands and fathers.

There's a church in Alberta Canada that they put a female lead Pastor in it. And now all the men have accepted the feminist spirit. That is ensuring the gay bars will have customers in 10 to 15 years. It's kind of funny picturing them prancing around in a gay bar

A lot of implications from guesses and things inconclusive. It's better to not only stick with the text but also to understand that it is quite a stretch that the church got this wrong for almost 2,000 years.

Invite Dr. Cynthia Westfall to speak on this topic too.

As a woman, I was an unquestioning complementarian...until I started attending National Community Church near Washington, D.C. Heather Zempel is a lead teaching pastor, and her sermons are amazing, well-prepped, and life-changing. Her teaching gift has powerfully impacted the lives of many. After attending there, I could probably never fall in line with complementarian thinkers again. It seems dogmatic to hold onto those views in the face of all we know about cultural norms at the time the Scriptures were written. Check out one of her sermons as an example (theaterchurch.com/media/breath/same-spirit ), and maybe reach out to her if you ever touch on this subject again.

What word is he saying at 13:43 and 13:47?

The reasons given for headcoverings have nothing to do with sexual modesty. In fact they were laying out a new standard for Christians which was very different from their current culture. The fact he tells men not to cover their heads was quite counter cultural. It was a new symbol he was having them implement for non-cultural reasons from creation and angels, etc.

The hard part about the role of women not being able to teach men being a cultural or lack of education thing is verse 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. This almost makes it by design.

When will Dr Keener be back again?! I loved this!

The original Greek, Hebrew, we’ve always said. Pt. 2

It's clear from scripture that Paul was not basing his instructions to Timothy based upon the culture. His teaching was the universal principal to be applied to the Church of God! 1 Tim. 3:14¶I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, 15if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. ( by trying to say what Paul wrote was more of a reflection on the culture takes away from the authority of scripture!) Paul is clearly pointing this out.

"Get thee to a kitchen woman, thou daughter of Eve and make me a tuna fish sandwich" 3 Timothy 19: 60

These are the WILL of GOD, that Christian Women must modestly and obediently obey and follow to be Silent/Quiet in the CHURCH of God taught by Christ Jesus to St. Paul: Main Reasons only: 1. God created ADAM first (not EVE) in God's Image and Likeness (ref.: Genesis 1:27) 2. Only ADAM was given by God the authority to rule, subdue, and give names to all God's creations, whatever ADAM gave, that is their names (ref.: Genesis 2:18-20).. that is why still up to this day, Man is the giver of the Descendant names, for example... Yeshua bin Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph)... in our modern time, the children adopted the "Family name of their Father" and not the maiden name of the mother... 3. God created EVE from the Rib (bone) and Flesh of ADAM, and she was called Woman which means "Came from Men" (ref: Genesis 2:24) 4. ADAM was not deceived by the Serpent (Satan) but was EVE, and EVE deceived ADAM by giving the Forbidden Fruits to him (ref: Genesis 3:1-15) 5. The Head of Christ Jesus is God, and the Head of every Man is Christ Jesus, while the Head of the Woman is Man (ref.: 1 Corinthians 11:3) 6. Man does not need to cover his head when praying to God, but the woman must cover her head when praying to God for the sake of man and as a sign of total submission to the Body of Christ (Church) (ref.: 1 Corinthians 11:10) 6. Only MAN is considered by God worthy to give ANCESTRAL LINEAGE and SPIRITUAL BLESSING to their descendants that is why MAN called it "HIS STORY" (History) and not HER STORY... for example,... Jacob had 13 Children including 1 Daughter (Dinah) but God only chose 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel (all sons of Jacob)... likewise, Christ Jesus chose 12 Aposltes, all men... followed only by the discipleship of men and women like Mary Magdalene, Barnabas, etc., AFTER Christ ascended back to Heaven, commanded His Apostle to make DISCIPLES of all Nations... Christ said, If you LOVE ME, KEEP MY Commandments (John 14:15)... whose commandments?... Moses (O.T.) or Christ (N.T.)?.... God said to the 3 Apostles in the Transfiguration of Christ in the Mountain, "This is my Beloved Son (Christ Jesus) in whom I AM well pleased, LISTEN (obey/follow) to HIM."... to whom do we (Christians) LISTEN only (spiritually)?... to Christ Jesus... Amen...

So basically it goes like this... Here the text show you are wrong - "it is cultural". So discard any argument with "it is cultural"

I don't know. It seems Mr. Keener (whom I really like) thinks everything having to do with this is cultural.

It's Bible.

I'm most of the way through and I have yet to hear any argument for female priests.

Consideration of the context of 1 Corinthians and women not speaking must take into account the hetaerae in ancient Greece, Athens and Corinth especially. Church gatherings taking place in someone's home involved dinner and then the symposium after, used for teaching, prayer, worship etcetera instead of drinking and entertainment. In the culture, only hetaerae - high class prostitutes who were the only women to be educated and only for the entertainment of men - were typically allowed to eat with men. They were trained to be good conversationalists capable of intellectual and philosophical banter. Proper women almost never ate with men even in their own families, nevermind strangers. This is the same culture that taught only true romantic and sexual love could occur between two men because only men could be intellectual equals. The idealization of homosexuality in ancient Greece is what the intellectual suppression of women was linked to. Proper women with whom you would marry and have children with would be kept uneducated and silent. Men could only find true love with other men. So Paul and other Christians already were putting the reputations of Christian women at risk just by allowing them to mingle with Christian men. They also were dealing with women who had been illiterate up to that point and for the first time in their lives were being given any kind of education. Or allowed to take part in a symposia of any kind. So Paul et al were taking a lot of risks to begin with, and the last thing they needed was the reputation of Christian women being confused with that of prostitutes.

The Bible doesn't say women are supposed to wear head coverings at all. What Bible are you reading? Paul said at the very end that the Christian Church doesn't have such customs, rules and traditions. 1 Corinthians 11:16 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

I enjoyed this discussion but I will say that the context of Joel 2:28 ‘all flesh’ is referring to all Jewish flesh (people). Not Gentiles and Jews flesh. Context shows that. To make it a reference to all mankind, or all flesh as in world wide flesh requires eisegesis of the text. Acts Chapter 2 pouring out of the Spirit occurred on Jewish people. Gentiles come into the picture not because they’re found in Joel 2 or because of Acts 2 but because Jesus ministry, who is a Jew was to fulfill the Jewish Ministry of being a light to the Gentiles and drawing ALL mankind to him. Israelites were always meant to draw others to their faith and Jesus did that. Also forbidding women to teach in the Church (and I’ll include elder ship, pastor) is just that, teaching (Pastor, eldership) the Church and Paul gives you the reason for that ‘Eve was deceived’ and not ‘usurping authority from the man’. Women can hold many ministries IN the Church but not teaching and I believe NT and OT scripture shows us women were prophets, even apostles (not as in 12 as they were sent by Jesus Himself) but as in meaning ‘sent ones’ as in sent by others but not directly by Jesus. There is a difference in calling and commissioning. Also there were no female priests in the OT. Plenty of them in the culture of their day. They were in fact harlots for their particular religion. We are still men and women in God, when we’re saved, those roles are not done away with once saved, but as far as our position in Christ, ie our justification, salvation, we’re all been made alike, we’re ALL saved! We’re all one there. That’s what Gal 3:28 is talking about. That’s how Gal chapter 3 is meant to be read if you read it in context. Joel chapter 3 or Acts 2 isn’t mentioned here. It’s addressing our justification before God. In fact the whole book of Galatians is dealing with how we’re saved: by faith in Jesus and not faith in our works or faith in our position or roles or even being male or female. We’re all saved the same way, the Law of Moses was a tutor to bring them to Christ but NOW Christ has come and now because we’ve exercised faith in Jesus, we’re all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:26. Some admonitions in the NT are cultural (I agree maybe the head covering one) but not all can be excused by using the cultural card such as suffering not a woman to teach in the Church. Remember it’s teaching ‘IN the Church’ when they gather. She can teach but not in the Church when they gather. She can do it with her kids, when she’s evangelizing, in her ministry outside the Church gathering. It is a sign of submission and acknowledgment of what all of Scripture shows which is that Eve was the one deceived so THATS why she can’t teach IN the Church. She’s not meant to usurp authority in that realm.

Noted the host…no offense….probably meant nothing by it….but he’s giving examples of the way things are and said…‘you’re treating your women’….who said it’s ‘your women’, like they belonged to someone. Just putting it out there. There is something in scripture re: 4 daughters, meaning single women. Probably a rarity in the ancient world, bec od the emphasis upon families since it was an agrarian society which required many hands (field hands…if we must put it that way - but being practical….it took many people to run a farm). Also Steven Ben Denoon, Israeli News Live channel and accompanying channel, Denoon Institute of Biblical Research, has stated in the voluminous body of work he’s done from all ancient texts, he’s explained all of that. And it’s not as it appears. Cannot explain this evening, bec of time constraints.

In James. Chapter 3. " let not many of you become teachers ,my brethren... etc. I don't know Greek. But the word here for brethren is brothers. And when it is used it is here means brothers and sisters. Read it in context. Do u think James was just writing the book of James to men?

Other scholars are not in agreement with this man. He's a scholar so gotta give him respect for being an expert. However, the passages in question are in the Bible for a reason and they communicate a message that women are different and are not men. We have different roles! To just explain all of them away makes me believe this man has an agenda to push?

In GENERAL, Yes, all Women who practice CHRISTIANITY should learn HOW to be "SILENT/QUIET" with modesty and humbleness when it comes to the CHURCH and Spiritual matters for that is the WILL of God... unless God Himself appointed a real PROPHETRESS if no man is qualified to do the task of God... All Christian Women should look upon the modesty and humble obedient example of BLESSED MARY, even though she has found "HIGHLY FAVORED" from God and with "FULL of GRACE" from the Holy Spirit than any Apostles, Disciples, Martyrs, and Saints... Blessed Mary practiced till her death to be SILENT/QUIET in the CHURCH of God in Christ.... Facts and Truth of the Matters. BLESSED MARY should be the true model for all CHRISTIAN WOMEN with modesty, humbleness, and obedience to the WILL of God... "Not OUR own WILL, but God's WILL be done"... Glory, Praise, and Thanks be to God in Christ Jesus' name... Amen

Get some women on your panel.

57:45 anti-man¿¿¿ Has it not been the case from the beginning, even in the garden, that human culture has been anti-woman? Let me prove it, so the snake poses to Eve "Has God said?" I'm going to be honest with you, Eve has no clear idea what God has said. We know this by her response "we may freely eat from the trees but the tree that's in the midst of the garden we may not eat from." The tree in the midst of the garden is the tree of life and there was no prohibition on that tree, she is not clear on this. She also does not understand that the tree she is being deceived about is the very tree she has been forbidden to eat from, again she is not clear on this. Now who's fault is that? Eve was not present when the commandment was given. Adam, as so called "head" is supposed to teach her..... So if you don't permit the woman to teach and man is incapable of teaching, well no wonder the world is in the shape it's in. The woman has not been treated correctly. She is the EZER KENEGDO. She is not guilty of the fall of mankind because she will bring the sinless Savior into the world, only men pass sin, not women.

The feminist spirit is not brand new

Roman Catholics, LDS, Jehovah witness, Mormons and women as pastors are non biblical: i am done listening to these groups' arguements.

I have never met any woman who had gift of teaching to teach in the church the congregation. All I have seen on the internet was just terrible. There are cultural things in Bible, but only when it can be clearly deduced as cultural rule. To use other books and literature from 1th century and change view because of that, is practical denial of sufficency and clarity of scriptures. Woman should submit to man, not man to woman. And in church woman are not allowed to teach, to practice otherwise is sin against God.

Typical. Lots of men talking about what women can do