World of Warships- Why Submarines Are Bad For The Game 

Why complicate things? Remove homing and ping. Improve sub stealth mechanics instead.. Now subs are more lethal to campers and larger less maneuverable ships that they historically were. What is wrong with launching the torps the same way as a DD?

Honestly the easiest fix is remove the homing from the torps... they are currently acting like mk48 ADCAPs being shot out of subs that historically had horrible torps.

Your video is a perfect example of why people want the subs gone. How much fun did that Zao have. Was there anyway he could respond. Pinged, torps, pinged torps, etc... He must have really enjoyed the experience.

I’ve tried to dodge in a cruiser and the torpedoes did a 90 degree angle basically …4 citadels … yea …. This is not okay … maybe give ships dual damage con consumables so you can use either or both as needed 2 may give you enough time to escape a subs double ping attack…. Oh and that last attack that cruise just said fuck this I been flooded 2 times I can’t escape the ping I’m now double ping I’m slow from flood I give up lol

other subs mechanics are fine? you just straight went underwater for 3 minutes and got behind all the enemy team

If you are banging away with pings, everyboby should know where you are by direction. Anyway limited amount of pings, recharge by being on the surface. Unable to ping a head on DD, that way you have a realistic shoot out like in WW2. DDs are supposed to be the sub killers of the fleet (as currently configured). All of this ASW via airstrikes are just a band-aide for the sub problem.

Given their stealth nature, why do subs need homing torps at all?

Wg must alow to players to choose the game with or without submarines.!

Yeah, your comments basically sum up what I’ve been thinking after playing subs for a bit. Homing torpedoes are ridiculous, and sonar pings totally break the dcp economy.

"if you got three fires on your cruiser something´s gone sideways" - Yeah, I used dcp to stop homing (to not get DevStruck) and then the BritBB hit me with a HE-salvo -.- Especially enjoyable in supercruisers. But according to WG this is fine.

with this level of stealth they don't need homing torps ! fire them in straight line and would still do better than brit DDs

Just get rid of the homing mechanism or buff the damage con for BBs... Do subs really need homing torps?

I would rather no homing torps and the ping was like a super short (10-20s) hydro, that way they could navigate and stalk.

I had my first experience of bendy torpedoes today in my Cleveland I quit and immediately uninstalled. After playing this game since closed BETA.

I just remembered that in co-op the bot subs would dive and just hide at the end of the game. Then the whole team spent forever trying to find a sub with no way to find it until it finally surfaced. I didn't realize it would be so much worse.

They come at the sacrifice of surface ships, and thats the last thing this game needs!!!!

I will have no trouble with subs in game once they are nerfed to be historically accurate.

You're definitely right about sun's being fun at times. I've been playing the tier 6 German sub some, and in a double CV game I took both CVs out and capped two bases. As for the new addition to deal with sub pings and subs having a penalty to pinging, I couldn't agree more. Subs should have a limited number of pings that have a use timer on them.

The biggest issue of most concern is the impact once again on BB's. Had a game at tier VII and it had a tier VIII CV plus submarine and 3 DD's and it was not fun. The US BB was unmanouverable due to its low speed or more over the impact of constant turns on ships overall speed and between that and constantly under detection meant the whole game was the turret rotation trying to keep up with heavy manouvering while dodging multiple torpedo threats from both DD, CV and Sub. Also the need to use repair party to clear the ping due to inbound homing torps only for the very next HE shell to set you on perma fire just not fun. No counter to it and you feel helpless for the team. Won't be jumping into a BB to sit at the back sniping from range in a hurry, boring and not helpful to team.

I'm still angry and frustrated from playing against Subs in Ranked let alone Random Battles. As there are only 7 ships in ranked a good sub player determines the game and absolute lack of fun so damn much. Last night in Gold ranked I was in my OP Thunderer successfully using islands and jinking to avoid incoming fire and torps from 2 BBs, a CL and DD. All was well until I got nuked in two salvoes by a sub who was set up mid map. Nothing I could do. The sub then nuked our other BB and CA who were originally supporting me in quick succession. This was despite attempts from our DD to hunt their sub all game. It was so frustrating. Not a one off either. Any game with subs is horrible. Had the same thing happen to me in other BBS and cruisers over and over. Don't even get me started on getting shot gunned as a DD trying to get a sub. This game is just anger and frustration now. I played for fun and enjoyment. They've absolutely taken that away (except when lucky and get a no sub and no cv game) Time to uninstall and find another naval battle game worth my time and money

Subs and CVs limit the interaction between you and the enemy, great for war, terrible for a game.

With the ability to constantly ping, there's no defense for the surface ship!

The other day I'm in my kitakaze. We're chasing a submerged sub at 37 kts and cannot catch it Talk about stupid.

The only fix to submarines is their complete removal from the game.

With the CV's and now Sub's, I've lost all wanting to play CC's The game has gone full stupid.

As you are talking about balancing subs I am watching you chase down a Zao and there is nothing he can do about it. Where is the fun in a game when another player can just end you and you are helpless to stop them?

Haha that last kill was classic! Dude hits his breaks and blares his Ships Horn in frustration

Subs shouldnt be in random battles. They should have their own mode so people that dont want to come up against them dont have to. They are overpowered in terms of being able to get rid of a full hp bb after two pings Plus the subs ive had on my team where more interested in getting past the other team so they can chase the cv to the corner of the map 😂🤷‍♂️

The speed of sound is different for each nation?

Ps or reduce pings to 1 on ships after dcp been used ie cant be double pinged while dcp on cooldown?

If using hydrofoam, does it tell the surface ship roughly your location? Been wondering that.

subs are so overpowed at area denials. especially because now you can single launch your torps. the trick is you launch 1-2 torps first and then wait 10-20 sec before launch the rest of your torps. and then voila you will ALWAYS land torps if your pings are spot on.

Subs in epicentre games are particularly OP. They just sit and wait by the middle unspotted and destroy anything that has to come to the middle.

Playing as a sub is a good way to get rid of your karma 😜 I went from 8 to 0 !

Ive had a few games recently but didnt realise the subs got released on our servers. Enemy sub detected every battle and then i die to either torps or cvs. I have no idea how to spot and shoot a sub in a bb. Enemy sub detected exactly where? never seen a enemy sub as yet.

So, you think their underwater speeds are good for the game or good for the subs? WW2 subs with 60's and 70's tech are abominations.

Range of ship hydro for under water targets should be made to detect further, ping shouldn't effect torps already fired and also an active ping should make sub appear on mini map if a ship is within a certain rng from sub

asashio deep water torps to hit supper cruisers and can we get a depth designated for hitting subs with them?

one thing that does annoy me is that hydro does not spot a submarine at torpedo depth i mean its one of the tings it was designed for

I had a hard time catching a sub today, the submarine kept pinning me and I could not see it until it came out the water or a DD spotted it or hydro, THEN I put all my airstrikes into it. Getting me around or over 7k in a napoli

Ping cutting off at different distances for different classes might be the most ridiculous part of this trash fire, and that's an accomplishment considering how poorly this has been implemented overall.

Thing is…If you go “active” by pinging every single ship with a sound detection device would know exactly where they were. That’s the jeopardy. Yes you could ping like a morse code tapper but you would have every DD or aircraft up your chuff very quickly. It’s called the silent service for a reason! At present it’s like having post war subs with “spearfish” torpedoes as apart from MkVIII’s. The skill in WW1 and 2 was getting into position undetected,getting a firing solution and getting away undetected. Whilst trying not to run out of air or electricity (snorkell apart). Ok it’s a game but at present it’s a crazy mix of old and new.

Had a match in my Tirpitz where an enemy sub focused on me, chased me all the way across the map without being spotted. I was able to stay away from her tops until she had me pinned to edge of the map, where a could no longer dodge and got sunk. The sub was spotted before I went down, and was sunk soon after. I suppose this rendered it ineffective for most of the match, but this was not fun or interesting match for me.

I have a question currently im grinding GK and if i just research gk and not purchase it will i get gk when its removed?

Once, with DD, I use DCP when it almost hit me around 1 KM while I am kiting away to dodge the torp, dodge the 1st wave, 2nd wave is coming 1 km behind the 1st wave. Got the ping, and I died. Now I know how to abuse it. Launch 2-3 torps then after 1-2 km, launch 2nd wave. Guarantee hit if you can ping properly

got feeling when ppl learn how to play them subs will be super OP, ppl now are testing learning how to play them making tons of mistakes and die fast, but soon u will get these masters which will be wrecking half of team without sweet

All I know is crusiers have disappeared and most games now have 4 to 5 dds

As bad as subs are I still think CV's are the most OP class in the game with almost no counter play for the majority of ships. At least subs have some counter but they are still broken.

I spent a full game yesterday trying to get away from a sub, it is not possible in a Freddie. the rudder shift is far to long. I never got to detect the sub

With the way they're doing these bend it like Beckham torps, chances are within a couple years they will bring in guided missiles to the game

My experience on subs is summed up in a game I had, I was in the Graf spee all t6 match, little no no enemy ships on one side of the map so I go that side Turns out 1 enemy ships but behind an island and no concern , but then I'm pinged then a CVS planes show up, so I start , I keep going forward towards the sub and adjust depending on the CVS planes Long story short , 31k hp of mine gone , 4 sperate airstrikes on the sub who didn't move at all for some reason and I kill the sub , that was my whole match killing that sub and avoiding airstrikes, it was extremely boring and I didn't get to do or attempt any skillful plays or anything that could be called fun, that's why I don't like subs , they're an anti fun mechanic to a game with enough of those already

As a new player, I really don’t want to have to learn to counter subs on top of everything else I already have to learn, and on top of the fact that I constantly get shit on by CV’s.

One good fix they can implement is to make torps only home at launch, if cleared by damacon they can't be made to reacquire the target by pinging after launch.

Don't know if you addressed this in a previous video but: as you are a main BB player what is your opinion? I get on my BB and get slapped by sub torps, DD torps (ok), Netherlands airstrike and CV. I mean HOW much can you save with a repair consumable. Makes every survival built on captain skills, being nonsense.

question about degaussing idea, Magnetic pistols didn't explode on contact they where used for under kneel triggering to bypass the torpedo bulges. then again I don't know how repair party stops tracking either so its not to far off. wonder if that can be a mechanic, setting torp depth and torp type. like I set magnetic torp depth for under kneel and betting they don't have noise or degaussing ready but if I set depth to high it explodes to early do to it not being under the ship doing minimal damage because farther away and the bulges. but if I sent a contact torp it has to make contact to trigger and the shallower the less dmg. maybe only under kneel can do citadel damage? idk thought it up while typing.

can u still get them?

These should be called the sometimes underwater boat. Because you spend most of the game on the surface, with no AA (its just for decoration) and no gun (also for decoration) The whole point of a submarine is to hide underwater, and WOW completely voids that with its seven minutes of diving. Subs arent fun to play if most of the time theyre a glorified DD (with homing torps), really a big disapointment when youve see movies like Das Boot, where the boat stays underwater for more than seven minutes.

As flamu pointed out. WG will never remove subs since it falls under their sunk cost fallacy model. They spent too much time and money on it, so they'll just tweak it around. It's too bad battlestations hasn't made another game since they made all classes equally fun, and nothing feels OP.

I think your missing another major issue with submarines. Underwater speed. NO sub should be faster than about 12 kmh when submerged.

In a game yesterday, I said something snarky in chat about how I spent the whole match in my Massa dodging sub torps from 2 subs and planes from a CV. Hardly ever fired my guns. One of the red subs stated that subs and CV’s are historically accurate in naval warfare. My reply was that so was scurvy, dysentery and sea sickness. Perhaps Wee Geee should add those also.

Remember, they've put in another problem. So now we wait for them to sell a solution.

The fact that they "have to test" them in ranked and randoms to get "more data", show how badly players want them in the game. Or in this case, dont want them in the game. Also adding more ships, classes and/or gimmicks will balance out any last bit of skilled gameplay. It just becomes being in the right place at the right time. Or even morelikely, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In my opinion of this game, less = more. Less variety in this game would make it a more balanced game. And therefor a much more fun to play game. Just giving my opinion.

Please play as a dd and show us how to handle/dodge sub torps while still scouting for your team.

the gamne needs more brawling intead we get more mechanics to push people to the edge of the map

I think subs should only be allowed to fire torpedos when at surface or periscope depth. When deeper, they will be blind, unable to see other ships, including those spotted by others, unless they use their sonar in that direction. It shouldn't even be possible to see the sea floor, but for gameplay reasons I'm okay with that. I'd also like to see them replace some of the short range ASW airstrikes with hedgehod mortars. They do not do a lot of damage or have much range, but they are faster then plane launched attacks and longer range then the depth charge drops from ships themselves.

RN ships had an agouti system which was a compressed air system whereby along the hull and through props you would pump compressed air through when active. This created an air gap between hull and seawater ( sound travels well in water but not air) thus confusing the active ping. It also created additional noise and masked ships own noise.

Pinging and stealth pinging is an issue... IMO, pinging should be treated in a similar fashion, to stealth firing with surface ships. Ping and you're detected to your max range.

Players: Nerf Cv and Subs! WG: Say no more fam. I-400 Class subs are here! Players: We didn't say that! WG: We also add ARP I-401 for gold!with Super Gravitational cannon that do 100K damage in 20km Distance beam and 2Km radius while makes any ship in the line of fire unable to move until the gun is fired.

Great vid Sea Lord. Agreed, homing torps need to go. RIP Standard type BBs that max out at 21-22 knots.

That's another thing pings should reveal your location. Maybe larger ships get a square on the map. But ships with hydro if in range regardless of the sets being off for active should get to see the ship for 10-20 seconds. And the big one is other subs if you ping with in his range you should automatically be seen so if pings go 11km and you do yours 10 km from a sub you just revealed yourself.

Took 11 torpedos from the tier 6 German sub and had 40,000 damage from the torps I could legit not escape the pings

I was torped yesterday in tallen and went to avoid only for all torps to turn and follow and take most of my hp . They don't belong

I played the subs in co-op.... honestly I put myself in the neutral/leaning against category. I do find myself agreeing with you on the Homing and respect the suggestions you made because all of them are workable and good ideas. But let me add something.... submarines are unlike any class we have therefore starting them back with the Destroyers is bad idea. If you think about it submarines are slower than destroyers that have limited downtime so it makes sense to put submarines a little further forward towards the center line of the battle area. The natural role of submarines would be as Scout and ambusher... destroyers fulfill this role now but they will always get to the area first submarines don't have a chance to set up and try to snipe or try to scout. If we are going to have this class exist in World of Warships then it needs to exist in such a way that it did in real life and let's face it Subs were never really part of a fleet order of battle they were always an adjunct where they either operated independently or used to channel an enemy into a Killzone

I'm also in 'remove homing' club. You are stealthier than DD. You have better reload than DD. What else do you want ?

That sonar search at ~13:30 is actually from an Arleigh Burke taken from their training range off Bermuda or the Bahamas (i dont quite recall). Does serve to your point of how loud active sonar is. Almost like hydrophones could hear it and the propellers of the subs doing the pinging. Huh.

Subs deserve just as much to be in the game as any other NAVAL ship in A NAVEL ONLY ABOUT GAME. SUBS DESERVE FUN TOO

Yup. I'm definitely not going Reeeeee but I still am very displeased about the homing plus damage and the problems with damacon. I've pretty much gotten over the 95kt tops, but I still feel there is extremely little any ship can do to mitigate damage taken from subs and way too much a sub can do to deal damage to quite literally any ship in the game.

I can get a sumbarine in the game now?

So to “fix” subs, just need to implement 5-7 things that basically rework the whole class. Got it. Lol

The answer to me is to uninstall and move on from this. That's what I've done.

8:00 also, for BBs especially, once you're focused on that sub and you start evading, you're going to show broadside. On numerous occcasions I dealt with the sub's attack only to be blapped by BBs who were surely wondering what I was doing.

I'd say turn the ping into a consumable that replenishes over time. Means you can send a flurry of pings, but then have to wait on recycle.

easy solution: remove subs (and CVs for that matter) from all PVP modes. i love the idea of playing a sub and i used to love carriers but they are not balanced for this game. maybe a mission where you have a team of 3 subs and you have to ambush an all AI convoy. it doesnt matter if its unbalanced bc you arent fighting anyone, its just supposed to be fun. good to see some critical thinking about subs in PVP tho, if they keep them there, id hope these changes are considered heavily.

Have to agree with most said by Sea Lord Mountbatten. Subs (SS's) are here, whether the community likes it or not. Complaints can only be heard by WG if enough people quit. Vote with your "feet". Otherwise, get over it. Nasty name calling of players who play SS's is poisonous to the community. Reminds me a lot of the bad attitudes regarding the CVs when I joined.

Thank You for your input, while we appreciate and value your feedback at this time we're not quite done with the lube job that has began as Submarines. In the future please keep all input to a minimum of 0 complaints as your not a developer and have no idea how we work . Action Stations. Sincerely your local satire commenter

So in a DD, the homing ends when the torps went past your sphincter...

Your machine gun torpedoes are overpowered in this game, imo. Game developers: Hey! We hear you loud and clear. So here are homing torpedoes that ignore your ship's torpedo defense and does even more damage! ...so, you guys just straight up hate people who like playing battleships, am I ri- Developers: Yep!

Well, you can not remove the homing torps, because otherwise subs can not fight each other....

I just don't get why these ships are in the regular game, it's just like CVs there's nothing fun about facing them. A surface ship that is forced to face a CV or a SUB will have a terrible time because there's essentially nothing they can do against them. Just move these ships to their own gamemode, convoys should've been a wolfpack attacking a convoy with some ships defending. CV's could be a similar thing of a strike force mission mode.

I remember in the pt server I was playing the t6 sub and saw a fuso and deleted it of the map😂

So the diesel electric submarine has a speed of over 25 knots while submerged? How completely unrealistic is that?

I emailed wargaming asking for a refund for all my premium bbs.....due to being a totally different game and making my bbs way less fun to play.

Maybe they can do both the pinging battery idea, and increased detection but in my opinion it should be a gradual thing like every time you ping you increase your detection range by like 500m per ping

In case anyone is curious I put 7500 doubloons into the auction and lost. So the winning bid was over 30 dollars in doubloons. I don't know if anyone here bid higher and still lost. I am curious about what the minimum bid to win was.

Some good points. However if you reduce CD on damage con it will affect ships like Zao who do already poor as hell - and they don't have 50mm+ pen on HE like super Zaos (Azum/Yoshino/generally CBs with 305mm + calliber) - they rely on fire damage. Zao already in sad state, this would make it unable to even farm fire damage. What you gonna do then ? Play Torp only Zao or AP zao ... that can work ... sometimes but not as general playstyle hehe. I say either remove homing totally and make subs actually make good predictions on torps like all other ships with torps (and somehow I can see it work with some subs having torps only slower than halland with base speed of 82knots ?!) or QUADRUPLE CD on ping so sub cannot just reping someone in quick succession. Also dramatically reduce Submarine spotting range during periscope depth mode. You cannot tell me such ship should see so much. We have Fusos with Pagoda reaching sky and that doesnt help spot anything haha.

Why are carriers and subs omitted from competitive play like king of the sea? Because they want the matches to be fair and interesting... How sh*tty would King of the Sea be if it was unrestricted.... We need a KotS game mode...

The problem is not that submarines, as currently implemented, are unbalanced: the problem is that submarines are, by their nature, *unbalanceable.* The essence of what it means to be a submarine commander - see, but don't be seen etc - cannot be satisfactorily replicated in an asymmetrical multiplayer environment without ruining other classes' gameplay experience. Moreover, the addition of an undersea class ruins what originally made WoWs a refreshing alternative to other competitive shooters, namely the fact that, whatever your skill level, you could usually at least _see_ your enemy clearly and survive long enough to exchange fire with them (as opposed, for example, to getting one-shotted by unseen snipers in many land-based FPSs). The sad conclusion of this whole debacle is that the developers of WoWs don't understand what makes (made?) their game good.

Fun for the sub, but not fun for anyone else!

I agree with removing the ping and just have Subs send a spread of torps just like all the rest of us. Subs would still be a very sneaky addition to the game. "Guided torps must be removed". Subs are a-lot more than torps just as DDs are much more than pew pews and torps: They are both great spotters! Subs have really put a kink in my DD play as they surface and spot me from close enough that I can't escape quickly and I get pounded by all who sees me. I'm a Pan Euro player BTW (no smoke) so I think they effect me more than smoke DDs. "Presently Subs are very broken" and don't belong in the game "as they stand/are". "No guided torps by itself may be the answer": at least part of the answer! Sea_Tiger_59.

Agree across the board. Even just watching RU-vid vid (haven't had too much time to play) Subs just go ping ping ping with no downside. They really should adjust the time it takes between pings and/or make it so if you ping like crazy your detection range goes up. Subs having a battery for ping would work too, BUT "Wargaming does not like complicated things" so not likely. Personally from what i played in co op, the torps can cover most of their range in like 5 secs due to their 90 Plus knot speed. Then you have this "The range at which homing is switched off is 2.1 km for battleships, 1.2 km for aircraft carriers, 720 m for cruisers (360 in case of double sonar ping effect), and 240 m for destroyers and submarines (120 in case of double sonar ping effect)." While it is possible to dodge, its pretty hard id imagine. I get the feeling you Wait for the torps to turn then adjust course and speed or vice versa. Yeah their should probably be another "remove ping" then DCP, i can see it being a problem without even experiencing it. Like you have Fires, Floods (remember when that shit would KILL YOU?) and now we have Torpedos that can CITADEL YOU. The other problem is MOST DCP is like 5 secs (Destroyers and Cruisers), the only ships with any duration to their DC are Battleships (generally 15 to 24 seconds.) the Noisemakers might be a good idea actually, but i can picture wg be like "now you have too many buttons to remember". A reduction in DCP cooldown would be nice, it would help in general not just from sub torps.