Notice Martin Sheen's hair. In the hiatus after season 6, Sheen started work on "The Departed", Martin Scorsese wanted Sheen to look different than he did as Bartlet. So Sheen stopped coloring his hair. When filming for season 7 began, Sheen still had scenes to shoot for the movie, so he decided to let Bartlet go grey as well. But after his movie scenes were finished, he started coloring his hair again.
It makes sense why Bartlet would be totally grey by the end of the show, the same thing happened to Obama. Obama went into office with mostly dark hair and left with a full head of grey. I know that takes place in real life after when the show ended but its a similar parallel. Especially since Obama went into office as a relatively young President.
I watched this, the opening of the 7th Season, not knowing the result. I was tempted to skip through but held back and watched it all. I did know that Leo (John Spencer) had died but had not kept up with his career moves. Still a great series.
They kind of lucked out in a way not involving Leo in this scene since they wouldn't have been to write him off with a death and would've had to explain why he wasn't present in the last handful of episodes.
I always thought Josh coming up and beginning to give an order to Bartlet and announce the president's arrival kind of tipped off who won the election.
I take your point. But I also believe had the other guy won Josh would still be there for Bartlett and would still be the guy on the street waiting to see when the president shows up
@@wc6046 there's been some talk that they originally had that idea, but I think that's more urban legend than reality. I think the reality is that they may have considered the idea of a republican administration if the show was going to continue, but knowing it was going to end they junked the half-baked concept.
There have been "rumours" as to the result of the election - I think both results Santos and Vinick as winners were tossed around. I lost track of why they went with the Santos victory.
I hadn't thought of it that way. I like to think of it that way, too. I would like to think that Kate went to Oregon and they are secretly planning their wedding.
@@lmiller1413 Why would they have to keep it a secret? I mean they no longer work together so there's really no reason to hide the fact that they're a thing. And as a congressman Will probably spends the majority of his time in DC, so she could easily stay living in DC with him.
Honesly, no, he wouldn't. Sam might be, or Cj, but Josh is way, way too combative with people who disagree with him. If Vinick had won, Josh probably would have gone to work for the DNC.
I'm just happy Toby is here because seriously they (writers et al) did him bad in this season. It is so impossible to think that Toby would betray Bartlet. They wanted Richard Schiff in less no. of episodes to save money so they came up with this horrible plot of making him a disgraced white house employee. So sad
Toby was ALWAYS disagreeing with the President and arguing with him. Remember how he was when the President finally told him about the MS, AFTER Toby figured something was wrong? Toby was trying to NOT betray Bartlet, but at the same time, he wanted the govt to save the astronauts....
@@adultishgambino1 My take is that there's a pretty clear set of hints pointing at CJ, like the reporter who got the story being one of her favorites, and timing of calls, and so either 1) Toby leaked it stupidly in a way that was going to blow up on CJ (but Toby isn't stupid) 2) Toby leaked it deviously and disloyally in a way that would frame CJ (but Toby isn't like that either) 3) CJ leaked it, Toby realized she was going to get caught, & decided to stand up for her in a way that is totally his character and style, and that explains a lot of the unspoken stuff between them later on when she's visiting him. 🤷🏻♂️ YMMV!
@@wasserperson The theory I've always run with was that Toby's brother's wife leaked it. I recall that they alluded to the possibility that his brother told Toby about that secret military shuttle. It stands to reason if he told Toby, he also may have mentioned it to his wife. And his wife, knowing it existed and an astronaut's widow, leaked it to force the US government to rescue the astronauts. Toby realizing this, and wanting to protect the memory, and family, of his brother, took the fall.
Well... When it's a theory that I believe I have independently come to... I say so. If it's a theory I'm aware of... I try to say it's not mine... And sometimes, I hear something that gives the word to something I've thought of...but didn't know the word for it. Like panpsychism.
I assume you're talking about the theory that if Spencer hadn't died that Vinick would've won the election and there's literally no evidence to that fact. Why would they literally re-write the entire ending of the show for that? Especially if Santos had lost they wouldn't have had to explain why Leo wasn't in the last episodes of the show.
According to the writers it was dumb luck they left it vague enough who the President was. Vinick was supposed to win in the early drafts that were being use to plot the season, with there supposed to be a bittersweet message about how just because the other guys were in power it wasn't the end of the world and they could all work things from their end to work for the DNC or in the private sector to keep pushing their personal desires. John Spencer had a heart attack in real life, dying part way through the season (ironically just before filming for Election Day) and the show runners decided it would have been too sad and a bad note to end on such a monumental figure in the show and a phenomenal actor's last act playing as the loser who gave it his all for nothing. It was dumb luck that Leo wasn't in the library scene (as he was supposed to make a full recovery) and Josh's future not stated. Writers have stated if they had planned for Santos to win, they would have brought Rob Lowe (Sam) back in for the scene, where as Lowe only got brought back into the show after Spencer's passing.
@@Rakonat The only huge misstep in my opinion in Season 7. It's clear Santos is the winner. What's the point of all the "Vinick" is winning.. we KNOW Santos wins. I hate and love this scene at the same time.
@@gregthow9390 I hear you that it can read as a tip off, but consider these signs of ambiguity: - As CoS, you'd expect Josh to be in the motorcade, not bouncing up the steps - His surprise at the gang's-all-here moment suggests he didn't know who'd be there when - He doesn't have the same reverent warm distance the others have with Bartlett, almost like he's been staffing him (on his foreign diplomacy, maybe? - Bartlett doesn't look eager as he watches the limo... Just offering details that might help read the scene as if you don't already know the outcome; the actors definitely didn't!
@@mudgem3742 It's literally been known for years that after John Spencer (Leo McGary's actor) died, the writers of the show felt the bittersweet ending would have been too cruel on the audience after losing one of the greats. www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/arts/television/west-wing-writers-novel-way-of-picking-the-president.html Look up any interview with the writers, they've done several talking about how it. Mr. Spencer died shortly before they could start filming the actual election video, so the writers had to do a rewrite, changing the expected lost into an upset win for Santos and shoving in the story line of Santos attempting to get Vinnick to be his Secretary of State.
@dkrehbiel There is no earthly way Josh Lyman would work in a Republican White House. Ainsley worked as a lawyer, Josh would be out there helping shape political and legal developments.
@@SanskarWagley It's been a while since I saw the show (okay, 11 months, haha!), but when the leak came out, I remembered this scene, so that kind of spoiled it to me. I loved this scene so much, and I have the DVD, so I remembered it well.
@@subboidalso the “not a bad place to spend some time” line he says could have been made into a reference/contrast to time he’d served in jail, if he hadn’t been pardoned. as it stands, it now works as a reference to his pardon and the fact that he is able to “do time” at Columbia instead of in prison.
I present this theory, here's a reason why Josh would introduce the President. Josh is the Director of the Bartlet Library. Chiefs of staff don't usually serve a long time, Leo being an exception. Maybe Josh stepped down after a year or two due to stress and health problems, stemming from stress, PTSD, and lingering effects of the shooting. Josh might not have wanted to face the same fate as Leo, so he stepped down and found a more relaxing job of managing Bartlet's Library. So, being the Director, he might have been waiting for Santos' arrival. This could also explain why Sam was not there- after being promoted after Josh's resignation, he was traveling with Santos as his second Chief of Staff.
Managing a presidential library is a huge step down from WH COS. I think that just about anyone who works in the West Wing could handle that kind of a job, kind of wasting Josh's talents there.
From what I heard Alan Alda’s character was supposed to win the presidency over Jimmy Smits character but after the surprising death of John Spencer they changed the ending so that Santos won over Vinnick. Hard for fans to watch Leo die and Santos lose. Thus the original shot with Josh Lyman makes sense.
Rob Lowe was back on the payroll before the season was out. Since Sam joins on as DCoS for Santos, if he's still in that job his absence could be explained as arriving with Santos and the motorcade.
I know that the talk was that Vinick going to win, but the lack of Leo in this scene makes me convinced that the surprise plan they were setting up was for McGarry to be president here. Also, in my head canon, Bailey would eventually become House Speaker while Charlie would become Mayor of DC.
@GoodwillieGoodwillie Hmm... not sure about that. Like I said in my previous comment, there's a big difference between being a lawyer for the president and being a senior political aide who helps shape and control the political agenda. Josh is a Democrat through and through and his ideology is incompatible with the Republicans. And anyway, when he says he'll be in his office six presidents from now, there's nothing there to suggest he doesn't mean irrespective of political party
Two things puzzles me about this scene firstly, he does not say anything that hints at what Charlie is doing now. I would have thought after giving him a reference for Georgetown he would have kept an eye on his career. Secondly, we do not see any members of his family at the dedication.
Stockard Channing put her foot down in season two -- "I don't do scenes as Martin's date. If you've got work for me to do to make the scene work, great. Otherwise use Moira, she's just as snappy & her hair is easier."
Am I the only one who remembers John Spencer (Leo) being in this scene? In fact, I remember thinking after he passed away that this scene would have put the writers in a jam because it envisioned him alive three years after the election. I've even found an article online from after his passing that mentions how he was included in the flash forward scene. I haven't been able to find video evidence of it though. I feel that maybe the scene was updated for DVD release and syndication to exclude Leo. Am I just going crazy?
They wouldn't have included Leo even if John Spencer was still alive because Leo was the Vice Presidential Candidate for the Democrats. If he was in the scene, it would have spoiled the entire season since his current job would have to be mentioned, whether it was VP or not.
But Josh is there and says "The president is here." Now I absolutely believe that Josh's presence is left vague as, even if Vinick had won, he could have just been outside and ran in to let people know about the president pulling up. With that said, Leo's presence could have equally been left vague, which is how my weird brain remembers it.
Short answer, yes you are crazy. I watched it on first run on NBC when it aired. There was no Leo. I remember thinking it was odd he wasn't there. Didn't even think about Abby and the girls, who are probably already seated on the dais.
Ok, so was this in the original airing or not? John Spencer died midway through the airing of the season, but I imagine they wouldn't have had him there in the original airing anyway because it would have spoiled it.
@@joemckim1183 But if the original plan was for Vinnick to win, as one insider has said, then Leo would not have been VP. In light of events they were fortunate not to include him.
There are definetly problems with this scene (continuity, giving away future plots, ect.) but it makes one hell of an opening for the series. Shame they couldn't have got Sam and maybe Mandy in for old times sake.
@@hockey1freak He's literally telling everyone the president is arriving. If Josh wasn't currently working for the President he would've already been up there with the rest of the former staff just hanging out.
It has always annoyed me that they never returned to this scene at the end of the show and who the President was - but having paused the scene as the Preisdent arrives at the exact moment the new President moves himself forward to get of of the car - it looks like Santos - not Vinick - hes too tall for Vinick - so maybe given the fact that they were maybe going to give it to Vinick they couldnt return to this scene. I wish they would do a reunion
In the early series we see regular faces on the secret service agents. A young black man who catches President Bartlett’s, a young white man who bursts into Oval Office when the president is speaking to the Russian president about the drone and of course Ron Butterfield. It would have been a little touch, but I would have liked to have seen some of the regular agents be the two escorting him in this scene
Butterfield and the main secret service agents moved to Santos' team. That's not how it works in real life, but it's how it worked in the show. You see Ron in the finale walking with Mr. and Mrs. Santos over to the White House before the inauguration.
It's a great scene, and I get that they wanted to build the suspense around whom the new President would be (and its sadly and eerily prescient that Leo doesn't appear in this scene, it was filmed before his unexpected and tragic death). I think, though, it would probably have been better as a wrap-up at the end of the final episode.
@OcTorthed Unfortunately that's a common - but false - rumour. What the writers at the time actually said was that they enjoyed writing a presidential race where they could potentially enjoy either nominee winning. However it was always going to be Santos winning. What they did change was the manner Santos won, for obvious reasons.
Actually, no. Until Leo (John Spencer) passed away, Vinick was going to win, and that was foreshadowed by Leo saying after watching Vinick's speech announcing he's running "We've got no one who can beat him", and after Vinick watches Santos get nominated and says "Okay, let's go win this thing".
I believe that was only one of two people getting out of the car: Vinick, and Josh was just one of the crew at the library dedication....or Santos did win, and something tragic happened to him and Leo is the President with Josh as his COS.
@dkrehbiel - I would think it would be more about the myth of "bipartisanship" than anything to do with Josh's ability, but I think your scenario is 99% the answer. :)
Well, IIRC, the president should have been Vinnick but the producers change it after the death of John Spencer (Leo McGarry). They thought that killing Leo and loosing the election was too much for the audience, so they made Santos win. And I'm pretty sure they filmed this scenen prior to this changes, so at the end it wasn't giving the plot away.
@@jeffgachihi8225 I don't think it's implied in the scene that he is working for any president. He just appeared to announce to the rest that "the president has arrived".
@@joemckim1183 In the original plan, Vinick was going to win. They changed it after John Spencer died, they decided having Leo die followed by a loss was too much of a down note, so they let Santos win. This scene may have been filmed before the change.
@@luqas99 that's a myth. the original plan was always for Santos to win (which is why he shares billing with Sheen). later on, as the writing staff fell in love with Alda's performance, the writer's room began to have some discussions about it, but that all went away with the loss of John Spencer.
It was the original intent, but John Spencer died, so the producers thought it'd be too much for the audience to both lose Leo AND have a Republican win...
even when this episode was first run, we all knew how the series would end and who would win. It's Aaron Sorkin afterall. that said, did he really need to give it away with Josh?
Aaron Sorkin had zip to do with the show after season 4. He said in his Masterclass that he had never watched a single episode of the show after he left. At this point it was John Wells who was the show runner.
Vinick was going to win. The death of John Spencer left the writers in a bit of a state and they decided that it would be harsh for someone to lose their Vice President and the election on the same night.
From what I hear, the showrunners initially intended for Senator Vinick to win (even though the people who make the show are liberals, they do admit that their side isn't always going to win.) But when one of the actors died and had to be written out, they thought it would be too sad for Santos to lose both his running-mate and the election.
I don't get it. This was aired long before Leo/John's death. This was when the writers were certain they were going to give the election to Vinick. What is Josh doing? For all the world, it seems like he works for Vinick. Nowhere in the show was there ever any indication that Josh would "lower" himself to working for Vinick. He never espoused an ounce of respect for the man. I know this was a bit of misdirection on the writers part, but it just doesn't make sense if Vinick was supposed to win.
I've always believed that Leo was supposed to have become President with Santos dying somehow . I believe there was a season 7 episode with an assassination which was supposed to be Santos but John Spencer dying changed that and they had to re do some things other than originally intended
Something to consider with this scene: there is no indication how long after the end of Bartlet's presidency that this scene took place; it could have been a few months, a year or over five years. As such, it does not mean that the President in the car was the winner of the Santos/Vinnick election. It could have been one of the two men, it might have been Leo or it could have been someone entirely new. The person who is really missing in this scene: Mrs. Bartlet. Why would she not be at her husband's side, joining in the celebrations?
Had he been acting as cheif of staff he woukd have been in the motorcade. The cast and writers have said themsevles santaos was going to lose until Jon spencers untimly death.
It may be that the writers intended for him to lose, but the fact is that he didn't. Three years on Santos would be President and Josh would be his CoS, these are just facts, so in this scene (which has been left open, although there's no way Josh would come in to announce the President's arrival unless we were meant to believe he was his CoS) the President about to arrive is Santos.
Thats true but you have to remember how the show was filmed when it was filmed santos wasnt going to win. When it aired the writters were still going to have him lose. Then spencer died and they changed the ending for the show.
