Yes, Miyamoto DOES Dislike Story 

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Mario games are a prime example of a game that really *should* be gameplay first to a big degree, and yet everybody almost universally loved Rosalina's storybook. Just a little bit of story focus can go a long way towards helping players engage with a game emotionally beyond just thinking "hey jumping around is pretty fun."

God bless Koizumi for Link’s Awakening, and wanting to give Link a backstory

I didn't know Koizumi was such an unsung hero. Also, I love spiteful Arlo. He does the thing while still being completely polite.

I would literally kill to watch a rant video about Koizumi. That man is effectively the lifeblood of the company

He HATES books. He really is a gamer

Story: “You despise me, don’t you?” Miyamoto: “If I gave you any thought I probably would.”

Honestly, thank you for being petty because it makes me realize how incredible Koizumi's contributions to the company have been

Gameplay makes a game Enjoyable. Story makes a game Memorable. When a game has both, it becomes unforgettable.

The problem with the Paper Mario Survey is that it only asked "What's your most important feature?" Of course, I said Gameplay, as terrible gameplay won't be saved by a good story. BUT, it failed to take into account that one might find gameplay most important, and story very high on the list.

Koizumi really deserves more credit. He's brilliant!

Miyamoto: “It’s not that I hate stories, I just don’t care that much about…” Basically this video: “CARE, DAMN IT!!!”

To any Miyamoto defenders watching this, it’s important to remember that two different things can be true. Miyamoto had a big hand in revolutionizing games, and we owe a ton to him. At the same time, he actively holds artistic growth back in Nintendo games with his story allergy.

This made me really like Koizumi much more. He was the reason for some really interesting games that have really stood the test of time. Miyamoto does have a great legacy, but he also has a track record of being petty, spiteful and stubborn as a mule. Koizumi with more control would be an interesting twist.

I mean, look at Kirby. There's usually very little story, leaving it all crammed in at the end, or in pause menu stuff, but when it gets rolling HOO BOY!! I am never gonna forget Forgotten Land's climax, and Susie and Haltmann are some of my favorite characters in the series, starring in my favorite Kirby game. A game doesn't need to be story heavy to be memorable, but just the right amount makes it magical.

I do think TTYD’s story helps a young kid who’s never played an RPG before be motivated to learn, but it’s also good enough for a seasoned RPG vet to want to find the fastest way to blast through it.

More concerning than Miyamoto shutting down stories in games (for me at least) is the possibility that they've shut down actual games because they assumed people wouldn't like them. We've recently been hearing that Nintendo have been taken by surprise at the success of Metroid Prime Remastered; what if those shutdown Retro games actually might have been beloved by the community but Nintendo cancelled them because they couldn't see/understand the potential? 😢

I find Miyamoto such an interesting figure. On the one hand, he is absolutely one of the smartest game designers in history. On the other hand, he has such odd and awkward ideas about what the player actually values, and that usually gets in the way of Nintendo creating a larger variety of games. F-Zero being shot down repeatedly is a great example. A new and expansive narrative would do a sequel wonders. New graphical fidelity, track complexity, online multiplayer, a fully functional track maker, immensely intense physics etc, would do WONDERS to make a new title in the series a knock out hit. But because Japanese sales of GX were lower than expected and he has no new ideas on how to add something radical to the game, the game doesn’t get made, even if another team pitches it to him.

Remember that 1 chapter from Paper Mario TTYD where Mario is on a train and uncovering mysteries for basically the whole thing, with no gameplay and mostly just storytelling? That was such a fun chapter!

A funny thing about the whole "Surveys said Paper Mario players don't like story" thing, and this was brought up by Chuggaaconroy in his "Sticks it to Sticker Star" series Not only does it seem like there has _never_ been any other case of a game or series being impacted and basically completely -butchered- reshaped by the surveys, but also the surveys had a reward incentive with Club Nintendo, so it's very likely that the majority of folks who actually did the surveys just quickly went through them without any thought just to get whatever rewards they wanted And the surveys were basically multiple choice questions with a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being "it was bad" and 7 being "it was good", and of course 1 was up top so basically everyone who skimmed through effectively just said the game was absolutely terrible on all accounts To put it short, the surveys were actually horribly unreliable, and the only reason anyone would ever try to use them to enforce a decision is if there was an agenda they wanted to push anyway and just needed an excuse

Miyamoto just grew up and worked in a time when it was practically impossible to tell a story with the hardware limitations they had back then. In lieu of a story, game play had to be the top selling point. Unless it was a movie tie-in, then we came up with the stories in our minds. But with the stuff we have now, there is no reason why we can't have both awesome story and action.

Let me tell you, ever since Koizumi came on the scene as a main figure behind the Switch, I have wished we saw more of him! Mans reminds me of the skit days from Reggie and Iwata. Just seems to have a plan that resonates and seems to be down to do fun things for directs and such. Learning that he is a driving force behind the stories on many of my favorite games is a surprise, but a welcome one to be sure!

Well maybe story dislikes miyamoto

Did you know... Good gameplay and good story can coexist? Like, they're not exclusive concepts? You can very much have both?

I always thought it was weird they Mario Galaxy 2 essentially has the l same story as the first one. Now I realize this is exactly the type of sequel Miyamoto wants.

Miyamoto makes it sound like story and gameplay are two different 'ways' of doing about making a game, instead of them both being two different pieces that work together to create a satisfying experience. The gameplay and the story should feed into each other in meaningful ways. One shouldn't just be a slave to the other.

I LOVE the past two Arlo videos being especially petty. I'm all for positivity but a good reality check with a fuzzy blue monster is very cathartic somehow

Miyamoto is like your successful boomer dad/grandpa in the family who expects things to just work the same as when he did it, and is completely oblivious to all the cultural and technological changes over the years and is just super resistant to any change and everyone else just sort of sighs and lets him do his thing because they either respect him too much or are too afraid of getting an earful of "THIS IS HOW WE DID IT BACK IN MY DAY, AND IT WORKED"

Fire emblem engage is probably the best example of how really fun gameplay experience can be ruined by a horrible to non existent story. Every character was surface level anime tropes with no real substance to them besides maybe 2 characters and the plot was so easily predictable that I just told myself I spent 50 dollars on it so I have to finish it.

I know this sounds lame, but as a kid, I was obsessed with Super Paper Mario's subversive story and was intrigued by its mysteries. I even watched several blind playthroughs to see different reactions to the story. Of course, now I am older and know that the story isn't as grand as other things I've seen by now for sure. It was my first Paper Mario game and one of my first games in general and it blew my mind away! I still think about the game's story to this day on occasion.

To add my own 2 cents: I don't know if I agree with Miyamoto's "story approach vs gameplay approach" as a way to design games. Obviously he deserves credit for all he's done in the industry, but games are in a much different place now, and have been for a while. Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw talks a lot in his Zero Punctuation series about his desire to see video games take the unique strengths of their medium and distance themselves from movies or "cinematic" experiences. He speaks about how gameplay should inform story, and that they should serve one another instead of being two separate things mashed together. I'll cite his ZP on Hades for the best example of this. He praises Supergiant for merging the game's roguelike gameplay loop with the visual-novel style story and character development, and how the repetition and slog of multiple deaths from the player are meant to illustrate Zagreus' struggles to break out of the underworld and find his mother in the story. Ideally, imo, game designers shouldn't be picking gameplay OR story to focus on; they're not mutually exclusive or on opposite sides of a spectrum. They can start design with one of them in mind, of course, but I personally believe gameplay and story should be interwoven because that's something video games are uniquely able to do. If anything, this interview just seems like MORE confirmation Miyamoto dislikes story, because he's made this dichotomy where he can excuse not focusing on story through the implication that games with story focus focus less on gameplay, which is incredibly disingenuous from my perspective. But hey, what do I know? I didn't make Mario.

Never knew Koizumi was THAT much of a legend. The balls to say such things about Zelda story and his attitude towards Miyamoto (12:25), especially in a japanese company.

Majora's mask is the best representation of how story guided gameplay, it would never have been what it was without the story. And in botw, althogh gameplay was extraordinary, I, like many others, couldn't help but feel that the story was lacking, I just wanted to know more, be part of the story itself, rather than just have a series of jumbled flashbacks.

"I just don't think it needs a story" is a WILD thing to say about a game series that started out being called (in Japanese) "Mario Story" [Paper Mario 1]

We probably already know this but I think the main distinction is that Miyamoto thinks the main purpose of a game is to be as fun as possible, while we look at games as more of an art and a form of expression. Many of us want games to connect with us at a deeper level than just surface level fun.

I think both gameplay and story are equally important. If a game has little story, but the gameplay is a lot of fun, then the game is worth playing. If the opposite is the case, then the story has to be very engaging for me to continue forward with it. However, a game that manages to balance a good story with good gameplay is an elite in my book. A good example is the Arkham games. That franchise managed to strike a balance in good storytelling and gameplay.

Zelda and Metroid should lean a bit heavier in the story-based direction (being Nintendo's more "adult" franchises) while Donkey Kong and Mario should be lighter on the story

Even if you’re not paying attention to the plot, knowing one is there can make the game feel more exciting.

“Why don’t you like stories?” “BECAUSE STORIES KILLED MY GRANDMA, OKAY?”

Yoshiaki Koizumi is one of two producers of Super Mario Odyssey, my favorite game of all time. Thank you, Koizumi.

Personally, I've always felt that the games industry and fans tend to give Miyamoto way too much credit than he actually deserves. I'm not saying that the man doesn't deserve his position, or the games he works aren't don't turn out great, but at the same time, there was always something about him that seems 'off' to me. And I feel like it's due to the way interviews frame him, they seem to always take what he says and spin it in a positive light. The most famous one I can think of is the "I don't wanna hire people who play games" Interview from Breath of the wild. Everyone I spoke to made it sound like he was preaching a gospel and to an extent, I got what he meant, but at the same time, a man who goes fishing or someone who goes hang gliding won't be able to transfer that experience into something that would be fun for everyone to play and the recent stream of popular indie games, made by gamers show that a lot of gamers do know how to make good games for those kinds of people. The point I'm attempting to swing round to, is I think the issue is that Miyamoto is a very controlling and opinionated person, he has a very specific idea on how things should work and should be done. And he lets a lot of that colour views on things. Like you said, Majora's mask is one of the most popular Legend of Zelda games, to the point it's debated if it is the best, along with classic Zelda and OOT. And despite it's overwhelming success, Miyamoto was quoted as saying he's never let Yoshiaki Koizumi do anything like that again. And just something else to note about Yoshiaki Koizumi he hasn't, if you got to his Wikipedia page, he hasn't been allowed to do anything story related or directorial since 2007. Since 2008 to 2021 he's only been a Producer or Supervisor. And the last story-related game he worked on was Super Mario Galaxy, where he snuck the storybook scene in and that, honestly, seems a little fishy to me.

Isn't a known story that the only reason that Rosalina's book existing on Super Maro Galaxy was because Koizumi managed to pass by Miyamoto's eyes without making him notice?

Miyamoto is an old school game designer, he helped shape what the games industry became especially after the crash (in the west). But as influential as he is I get the impression he's set in his ways as to what games can be (from his experience in the arcade era where story was limited), and maybe doesn't appreciate how games have evolved in the subsequent decades into a full-on art form where story can be as important as mechanics.

SuperMarioT would like a word with you, Arlo.

This video made me appreciate RPGs more. Gameplay is important, but having motivation that works towards the gameplay is always better.

I give Miyamoto credit for his good ideas early in Nintendos gaming history, but he has a storied past of interfering for the worse with tons of projects. Rare ware, Mario rpg, starfox, ect.

The puppet gloves have really been coming off recently, reminds me of the Not My Paper Mario videos and im here for it.

Are you okay? Blaming people? "I don't know him, but let's assume things about him." Dude, you take things downright personally and twist things to prove you're right. Ever heard about Pikmin? Star Fox? You also really overstate the Rosalina book. Edit: Spelling mistake. Koizumi also showed the storybook to Miyamoto and he approved.

It makes me sad how such great people can be so close minded... Miyomoto is like this with his opposition towards stories, and even Sakurai (the legend behind Smash Bros, and Kid Icarus Uprising) has an unusual dislike of sequels. At the very least Sakurai isn't quite so stubborn, which is why the Kirby series is directed by Shinya Kumazaki now, allowing the series to grow and continue to develop (even surpassing their predecessors in my opinion).

Mystery Dungeon has such emotional stories that I wish the main Pokemon games had. They get as good as the best Final Fantasy stories.

People have recently been arguing that Miyamoto is not to blame for Paper Mario losing deep stories and original characters. While he may no longer be involved, as an influencial boss, his comments to Tanabe got the ball rolling. *"So when Miyamoto san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot."* This is a fact, no matter how much fans say otherwise.

Like the evidence kinda sides with Miyamoto here, at least with game sales on Nintendo consoles. Most if not all of their top 10 selling games have hardly any story narrative. Pokemon is probably the closest thing to a story driven game they have in their top 10 sales.

I play the games for their stories. It what get me playing them. I also like playing farming games and build games like dragon quest builders 2 where is has a story line but even after the story there is still stuff to do. At the end of the day every one has their way to play. For me I need a story.

Oh Arlo, bringing my longing for the true sequel to the Paper Mario Thousand Year door back alive again....

Miyamoto, Ron Swanson of Nintendo "Does obtaining the Master Sword actually represent the moment in a kids life, where it needs to choose wether it wants to be an adult, or remain a careless child?" "Nah, its just a ***** sword!"

"So let's complain!" *Children Cheering sound effect*

Ok, so after watching this video I went Supermariot's video where he tries to debunk the Miyamoto anti-story schtick and I'd REALLY recommend watching that video if you want to see the other side of the argument. It's a good way to see both arguments before coming to a concrete conclusion. EDIT: Supermariot has recently uploaded a longer video on the matter after this video came out. Go check it out if you have the time.

I always thought he just cared more about gameplay than story because he cared more about how the game actually felt to play and because he’s old school. I didn’t think he disliked story

Valve is an example of a company which takes that gameplay-based approach, seeing what players like, and then weaves fascinating and thought-provoking stories out of them.

Story and gameplay are both incredibly important. The balance between them even more so. You can’t just have one or the other.

Honestly one of my favourite videos from Arlo. Very informative if anything with the old interviews.

I'm fine without a grand story for a platformer, but some genres, like RPGs, absolutely need a story to make you care about your party.

There's a RU-vidr I follow named Ruby of Blue who put this whole situation best - "with great gameplay, you have a great game, but with a great story on top of that, you have an unforgettable experience." I myself believe that great gameplay, mechanics, etc. are the foundation for a good game and are what initially hook people in, but the story is what makes people stay.

Red Dead Redemption 2 made me choke up at points. Stories in games are an incredible way to enhance the game experience. To ignore this is to deny the players the best experience you can provide

Counterpoint: The Pikmin games are arguably among the more story driven IPs in the Nintendo library (perhaps even the most story driven non-role playing franchise) and are the games that Miaymoto himself is most directly involved with ATM given his laid back apperoach since the 2010s.

This is a very interesting discussion. I teach English to high school freshmen, and one thing we cover a lot in that year of class is how a good, effective story follows 5 stages-exposition (AKA the setup), rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution (AKA the closure, how things end). Games that Miyamoto has had the most direct involvement in almost ubiquitously don’t have that structure. You’re right that it’s more of a scenario than a story, usually just exposition in the first 30-second intro cutscene and then a climax at the end. Nothing in between or after gives it any weight or lasting substance-it’s all about the gameplay! The New Super Marios are probably the best example of this. Where is the rising action? The gameplay rises, but that doesn’t evoke the same thing a “story” in the traditional sense does (at least not for most people). Where’s the resolution? To use New Soup again, we don’t know anything about how Mario or Peach or Bowser FEEL in the ending, so there’s no sense of closure, just a dry knowledge that the game is done and a sense of accomplishment if the gameplay resonated with you. I love New Super Mario Bros, Mario Galaxy, the original Zelda-all with Miyamoto’s DNA-but it’s interesting to think about what that approach has come to lack.

Story and Gameplay can both be good I wish Miyamoto would put even a little bit more thought into letting us have them Super Paper Mario made me cry when I played it, and then I played it over and over again, I loved the game especially for the story and I would love to have more games like it

wow i never knew this about the galaxy games. this really helps provide context for what is so unappealing to galaxy 2 for me compared to how much i love 1

Seconding that recommendation: I've had gerds (basically super heartburn) my whole life and ACV helps a ton, but the reason it works so well is partially because of the probiotics in the vinegar. After discovering this, I started taking a regular probiotic with similar strains to ACV and i haven't had heartburn for over a year. Good recommendation, Arlo! : )

I hope Koizumi managed to get something good into ToTK for us. I really liked the memories of Zelda and how she was and actual character instead of a princess mcguffin.

The biggest problem isn’t that Miyamoto doesn’t want to put a lot of focus on storytelling in games, it’s that he doesn’t allow others to focus on storytelling when it comes his characters, even when he isn’t working on the game. Now I tend to desire more simple storytelling (and when I say simple, I don’t mean no vibrant world or strong characters dynamics, I just don’t need a deep dive into into their psyche, watching two friends playing around and teasing each other is more interesting to me than a character being wadded down by a dark and troubled past), all I want is a hero who represents a Paragon of Virtue trying to achieve a goal and a villain, representing Vice, seeking to stop the hero from succeeding, so I don’t care much for stories with “dark” or “mature” undertones in them. Despite this, if you ‘allowed’ someone to use your characters and they created a strong story that gardener an audience that’s comes to expect that level of storytelling, disproving of it is going to make you look bad.

There has been literal proof that Miyamoto wasn’t the reason why paper Mario ended up like it is, or that Rosalina’s storybook was “secretly made against his wishes” but whatever man, keep believing your sources that have since then been debunked

read the title as "sony" instead of "story" and prepared myself to hear some beef lmaoo

I think a big part of why stories are so important in games is because of the memories made through them. Like, when I remember my favorite games, I don't go "ooh, that platforming challenge was fantastic" or "I loved that one specific mechanic"--I remember stories and characters. Story shouldn't get in the way of gameplay, but without it you get relatively samey games like the New Super Mario Bros. series. Those games are fine, but they just kind of blend together.

I can only imagine what it was like for Illumination working with him on the Mario movie. "But does the movie NEED a story? It's not too late to just have Mario wordlessly journeying for two hours before saving Peach from Bowser at the end!"

I think supermariot debunked the thing with Galaxy

This is why it’s good to have your Miyamoto’s and Koizumi’s in a gaming company - ala Nintendo. You don’t want yes men that greenlight everything, but you also need people to bend the rules and change the norm sometimes.

i find it really funny that miyamoto actually even took it into consideration that people may not want story in paper mario. I mean the first game in the series was literally called "Mario's STORY" in Japan like what the hell did he think people were playing it for?

That ideology only really works depending on the type of game you’re making. It’s if a game like a fighting game or a platformer, then yes, gameplay should ABSOLUTELY go first. But when you’re making a game like an RPG, then a good story or narrative can be just as important if not more.

Looool I hadn’t seen an Arlo video in 2yrs, however as soon as I saw this Thumbnail It was clear. We are going to talk about Paper Mario 🤣🤣

Never forget when they wanted to make a majoras mask type twilight princess sequel but miyamoto shot it down and turned it into links crossbow training instead 😭

Pay attention to his phrasing in the interview: he says he doesn't *mind* the story approach, but prefers the gameplay approach. Miyamoto may say he thinks that the story approach can work in certain games, but he also admitted in that interview through subtle phrasing that he prefers avoiding story in games he's a part of beyond the premise (or as Arlo puts on blast, he hates story in his games).

I think I see where he's coming from, for Paper Mario at least. He has a vision, a sorta minimalist design where you get raw gameplay in the PM universe. But the issue with that is the already established identity of the series. It could've worked as a spinoff. With the expectations of the fans for a main series title, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Though the fact he repeatedly shut down Koizumi for story ideas in other projects too really puts the nail in the coffin that he had legit issues with stories as a whole. Which is a shame, definitely wouldn't expect that to come from someone as experienced and knowledgeable as him. Feels stubborn rather than wise. Oh well, I guess I should be glad he saw resistance to his ideals and even that some seeped into the games!

17:18 to 17:30 had me DYING, the listing, the “...I will cry”, along with the bouncy stride off the camera view looked like a Muppet sketch. Too bad you were rejected for being a gamer, though.

Story is so important to a game, not every game needs a story, but a story can amplify a game by extreme lengths. Games like Xenoblade, Fire Emblem I really like, but I would never have tried these series if they didn't have a story I could get invested in.

its as simple as this: he believes his workers are making toys, he doesn't believe they're making art.

I think Chuggaconroy's "sticking it to sticker star" video essays did a better job communicating Miyamoto's involvement with story, in particular with paper mario. It was also much better researched and had much more even-handed arguments. I agree with the fundamental point of this video, but with a topic as beaten to death as this one, I felt this could've used some more work before publishing

i don’t think Miyamoto’s interview and your narrative are entirely incompatible. Here’s my narrative I made using both sources: it seems like Mr. Miyamoto-san isn’t actively hateful towards story-driven games, but would rather focus on core game design, just as the interview says. He values the power of gameplay first and foremost, as seen in mainline Mario games. This philosophy, alongside negative feedback to SPM’s story aspects, pushed him to make the executive decision/suggestion to minimize narrative in Paper Mario, sending the series into its current direction.

The flashbacks to Super Mario Galaxy 2 cut me to my core. Galaxy was my favorite Super Mario game in large part because of the unique atmosphere on the Observatory. Peach's Castle was kind of generic, and Delfino Plaza was fun and goofy, but the Comet Observatory was different. It had a wistful and lonely mood, complemented perfectly by the iconic "Family" theme playing in different variations. Obviously, Rosalina's storybook was great, but even without it, the atmosphere alone was still something special. It highlighted the loneliness of space, but made it more light and optimistic. The fact that the sequel went out of its way to make completely new assets just to throw all that out the window was an insult. There's a reason Rosalina is still a fan-favorite character present in every sports and party game and not purple knockoff Patrick. edit* and to add more, I said all of that without mentioning "story" a single time. I don't think it's just that Miyamoto hates story, I think he hates literally anything that isn't gameplay. I think every game developer and even the executives know that games need some kind of "special sauce", but for Miyamoto, if the sauce isn't in the gameplay, then he will actively fight against it as if it will detract from the gameplay.

Literally, this is I'm glad fanfiction exists because if Nintendo won't give us the stories we deserve, then we can through the power of writing. We will do what Nintenwon't.

I do wish we could get another game like Super Paper Mario, because honestly it still means so much to me. And it's because of the story that it does; that story, that game, was the first time I REALLY saw what a game could be. What it could mean to me emotionally (I may or may not have cried multiple times while playing but that's neither here nor there). Dimentio, to this day, is still one of if not my favourite Mario villains. Story is important, especially if you can connect to someone like that through it. At least that's what I think.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the (very good) video but apple cider vinegar with honey and with water? Great for sore throat. You gotta try it.

how does a good story take from enjoyment? stories are one of the main reasons i play games.

For me, an engaging story is the difference between a merely decent game, and a great game. It can make a game so much more fun. And as a wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother?"

For me and Miyamoto I like to see him as that grandpa you see for holidays. He is sweet, caring, nice and friendly. He has things he loves to show, games even with fun things to do. But for him stories are like that of something he just doesn't get. He doesn't see the power they can have. It's like modern convinces or even some other topics I wish to not say but you all know what older generations don't understand. In that way I see it as sad he still thinks games are just for fun and stories are not important. But at the same time..there is a part of me that wants to think maybe he has given it some thought with stories and his past is just that the past. It sucks those games and series had his touch with stories ruin them for several people. Or Koizumi deciding to give them anyway in-spite of him. But honestly the man is 70 years old. I wanna think maybe just maybe he changed his views and this article can show it. That or he's just a man in the past wishing to continue what he believes and when he does leave this world the new generations can try to capture his desires while also catering to the fans current desires like story.

Wasn’t paper Mario on the N64 called “Mario’s story” in Japan? Feels like it’s pretty important to the series

I'm still sour about what he did to Paper Mario 3ds. Apparently it was going to have a story with fun characters like in the past but then Miyamoto stepped in and was like "nah, don't do that." I don't know for sure if it's a true story but I remember being excited to see a commercial for another Paper Mario game coming out, me getting it and playing it and then being like "...I'm bored..."

You have narrative-driven games, gameplay-driven games, and varying degrees of both. Miyamoto is an artisan of gameplay. He understands how to create a game that is fun, because he understands what makes gameplay fun. But he doesn't understand that games can be a vessel to tell a story, that some games are more story than gameplay and that that isn't a bad thing.

I think it would've been better if you had included links to these interviews that you're pulling from (or at least, tell us what interview it is so we can try to search for it ourselves). Not from a place of distrust or anything, I love you Arlo, but more from a place of supporting full transparency.

Gameplay and story are interconnected. They can make each other way stronger when they resonate. One little example I have in mind is always Fire Emblem Three Houses. I think the development team went "whatever guys, let's just make it broken" when they designed Dimitri stats or something. But it was so great to have a game tell you in its story "hey fam, this guy is a beast" and when you play that character... he actually is ! It would be worthless if there was no story behind and people would just be like "hey this dude is completely broken, what an unbalanced game"