A zen retreat that is mostly yoga is a yoga retreat! 👍🏽 I do 10-45 minutes of yoga a day and then sit Zazen for 10-40 minutes. The yoga is a great help for me physically- though I am hyper flexible and still cannot sit full lotus - short legs and too much ankle pressure.
Great video, Brad! Amazing intro and speech! (I am also a Ziggy fan) I started my spiritual journey with hatha yoga in the '80. Never be able to make a complete split, that is a sign of good mobility. But one time I went in a dojo (a place where they teach aikido). At 4 a.m they practice zazen until 6 o'clock. I was not able to make lotus posture. But a person come next to me, took my legs and with extreme decision put me in the lotus asana. I thought he was mad and that I couldn't survive more than 10 minutes. Instead miraculously I remained in that position for 50' (with ease). Saluti dall'Italia 🇮🇹🙏😊
Hey Brad, great video as always! You should check out Yin Yoga. It's a much slower practice where you hold the poses for several minutes, which allows you to access deeper tissues and more mental stillness.
Thanks for your video! I also started yoga recently for the same reason - I sit zazen in full lotus posture but also can’t touch my toes. Yoga helps a lot, I like the mantra sometimes too.
There are 4 yoga paths in Hinduism not 3. Karma/selfless action, Bhakti / devotion , Gyana/ knowledge and Dhyan/ meditation yoga. The posture based yoga is totally different category
Good point. “Yoga” is very much a Hindu term, but we need to distinguish between *types* of Yoga. For example, Hatha Yoga (postures) is merely a prelude to Raja Yoga (the “royal” yoga of seated meditation) in that it tones and strengthens a body that would otherwise be too weak to sit in meditation for long periods…
Hatha yoga as a spiritual practice is a preparation for Raja yoga. The postures and the breathing exercises prepare the yogi to meditate and reach meditative states and experiences. From a Buddhist point of view it would be like doing relaxation practices to learn to relax and help you to be relaxed when you meditate, or doing martial arts to help you with practicing being focused so that you can focus when you meditate.
I do a lot of yoga and can most definitely touch my toes. However, I cannot even do half lotus pose and I'm starting to think my hips just don't work that way. Seriously, I've been working on it since I read 'Sit down and shut up' like what, fifteen years ago lol. I can keep my back real straight at least now. 😎 Anyway, I've done a lot more yoga then zazen since then. Last week I was struck by the feeling that I'm finally ready to take zazen seriously. Then you popped up in RU-vid, I am so glad you are still active. I've watched a few videos now and they've been great. 'When the student is ready, the teacher will be found'. With a little help from RU-vid I guess though. 🤓
It's interesting that zazen is as much about the physical aspect as the mind as, for me, yoga is as much about the mind aspect as the physical. I often find my I close my eyes when doing certain poses and enter a different mind state.
So, yeah...I just commented on another video from a year ago regarding retreats. I'd like to find one that is sit-walk-sit-walk-stretch-sit walk... mostly sit & walk. In Atlanta, where I had my Jukai ceremony, Michael Elliston Roshi did it that way. Do you?
A normal yoga retreat would have dhyana. They invented the darn thing after all. The problem is that in their view it´s not "yoga + meditation", it´s a continuum that starts with stretching and ends with sitting meditation, indian style. Why would they stop call the last part "zen" instead of "dhyana" and do it japanese style instead of indian style?
Ha I'm the opposite. I can touch my toes easily and am fairly flexible in my legs, but I can't even get near lotus pose-when I sit cross-legged my knees are way off the ground. I definitely need hip opener stretches
You said you do yoga ‘after’ zazen and I have to ask why? My assumption is that it’s better to do yoga beforehand to get loosened up. Also, listening to your new book on audible right now. Glad the audio issues got cleared up! 👌
I said that we do yoga after the first zazen session in the early morning. There are several other rounds of zazen after that. If one were only doing zazen once in a day, it might be better to do yoga before zazen. But when doing a retreat, it's good to do zazen very early in the morning as the first thing you do in the day.
A normal yoga retreat would have dhyana. They invented the darn thing after all. The problem is that in their view it´s not "yoga + meditation", it´s a continuum that starts with stretching and ends with sitting meditation, indian style. Why would they stop call the last part "zen" instead of "dhyana" and do it japanese style instead of indian style?
@@HardcoreZen I kinda figured you would have. My gateway into Buddhism and eastern philosophy and religion in general was largely through an interest in lucid dreaming. I wasn't thinking of Zazen at the time but after many years I did discover that just fixing my gaze on to an object and trying to hold there until waking up turned out to be one of the more interesting thing to do while in the state.
There’s a great book by Mark Singleton called Yoga Body that’s all about the development of contemporary yoga. Not much of it is terribly old, terribly ‘spiritual’ or even terribly Indian it seems. 😂 The book is very respectful and academic and doesn’t at all paint it as a sham though, which it could have easily done. Thanks Brad, great work as always.
Interesting, but does he also go in depth about traditional or pre-modern Yoga, which, by the way, is often associated with the great pioneer Patanjali? From some readings on Sri Aurobindo my impression is that Hat-Ha Yoga just stands for the most "visible" sides of the whole Yogic "system" (if I may call it such, thereby not excluding "intrinsic transcendencies"), -- which some people interpret, regarding just the etymology of the (Indo-Arian) term "Yoga", as "taking the spiritual, divine yoke", that is, a "yoke" which, in the end, does not bind but liberate. That would speak for some combined attempt, an integral "ecology of practices", traditionally closely associated with so called "Hinduism" (I´m not sure about what would be the "realy politically correct" terminology or nomenclature).
@@gunterappoldt3037 He does. The book opens with reference to archaeological yogic practices in Sind from 2,500 BC or so. He only gives a brief recap though. I suppose his point is that there is no evidence that there is an unbroken lineage or that this is an ancient practice imbued with timeless wisdom as is often implied in contemporary asana yoga. In fact, it’s as closely related to the YMCA as it is to Vishnu. He is a scholar of religious studies so he’s well versed in Hindu traditions and is not at all critical. My own opinion is that, just like in zen, the extraneous theatre, role-playing and fetishisation that accompanies yoga is largely just a bit silly and probably turns off as many people as it attracts. “Stretch yourself and fix your brain a bit - works well by all accounts” would be enough for me, but what do I know? 😂
@@superdeluxesmell Yes, I see. Thank You vey much! PS.: It seems to me that the common image of Yoga, Zen, and other "body-mind arts" spreads, as some kind of hybrid, between the extremes of classic ascesis (inclusive charisma) and contemporary sports (focussed on "wellness"). PPS.:W hat regards the Sinitic "body-mind arts" (Shâolíngongfu, Tàijíqúan etc.), one may fairly certain assume that they developed already in pre-modern times into quite sophisticated systems or "ecologies of body-and-mind practices". Needless to say, that they also developed, i.e., continuously changed and modified, with times, as the old-Frankonian saying goes: "Tempora mutantur, nos et mutantur in illis" (The times change, and we change in these).
I like stuff that makes me aware mostly of the moment and a little bit of really recent past and really near future. For me, table tennis, rock climbing, sometimes darts and video games do it, though video games have problems associated with them. Feels kinda similar to what I understand to be zan practices.
I like to do Judo and Jiu-jitsu, especially Judo because the best attacks come totally unexpected. It is kind of like the game where one person tries to slap the other person's hand and the other person tries to move them out of the way, but only after the slapper moves first. The same thing happens in every other sport I think. It is the surprising unexpected action that I think is most interesting. The same thing kind of happens in a good book, movie or with stand up comedy I think, when you are not expecting what happens and you have a pure reaction.
I am not sure how British influence on yoga blossomed the practice of yoga. There are a lot of schools of yoga which are older than encounter of British with yoga. Many of them are codified quite well example in hatha yoga pradipika or Patanjali yoga sutra. Furthermore yoga philosophy has been a distinct dualistic school of philosophy in India from a long long time. Which wouldn’t be possible without a certain maturity in the practice which comes after a long time, possibly thousands of years. Some of the older traditional schools in India infact encourage ritualistic practices, celebration of traditional festivals and other aspects of Hinduism Yoga practice gives excellent health and spiritual benefits to any one practising it. And it is gladdening to see different people practising. But appropriating or disassociating it from dharmic tradition is rather insensitive . It is not a good idea to reduce it to a minor method which is heavily influenced by British gymnastics. It is good idea to acknowledge its roots and present it in a proper context. Edit: Minor corrections
Brad is correct, albeit he oversimplified it. The kind of Hatha Yoga popular now in the West was catalyzed by a Western interaction with Indian culture. It’s a fascinating story, that always reminds me not to take popular appearances at face value. For the in-depth story, refer to the book: Mark Singleton (2010) “Yoga Body: the origins of modern posture practice” Oxford University Press. You can find an overview of this topic by searching on: “The History of Modern Yoga Asana”.
@@JimTempleman Thank you for filling in the details. And to Swagat, I didn't mean to imply that Hatha yoga was not an ancient tradition. It's just that the ancient Hatha tradition was influenced in the modern period by British gymnastics.
One of the aspects of what I call the 'Colonial Project' is to denounce anything dharmic/traditional. I'd argue that traditional wisdom was suppressed during the time by naming it superstitious, non- scientific etc...mind you the same continues till date. The other aspect of the project is appropriation( where the science is irrefutable). Anything profound and useful has to be the white man's gift to the world.
@@JimTempleman Thanks for sharing, quickly looked up the wiki version. Oh, some of popular hatha yoga popular in west or even the urban centers of India may have been influenced by framework of gymnasium. Ofcourse, these interactions are bound to happen and ofcourse leads to growth but the relative magnitude of influence definitely controversial. The system of hatha yoga is quite complex both in practice and philosophy. Overemphasising the influence of British gymnastics yoga would be quite misleading. There always existed a number of ancient martial arts (see kaliyaripattu) and wrestling traditions in India. Thus, yoga must have had access to knowledge in that way of body training (of course gymnastics and martial arts are not exactly same). Furthermore, I still feel some of the important arguments do sound quite off even from experiential point of view as a Hindu. To say that only a few asanas existed before the influence of gymnasium may in fact be false. There have a number of historical folklore about the different asanas being the favourite of some medieval or ancient sage (Eg. Gorakthnath). Furthermore, the thesis that yoga didn't have many asanas based on Vivekananda's teachings would be false because Vivekananda's organization Ramakrishna mission were Advaitins, although they also worked other paths (Bhakti, Raja, karma) and accepted that there are many ways to reach god. Anyways, interesting thesis I would definitely look up more on the same. Thanks :)
I recall reading an account of the Yoga of Mysore in which the point was made that it’s not that Hatha Yoga is not an ancient tradition, but rather that the number of asanas was increased at a late period due to the influence of British calisthenics programs. In other words, ancient Hatha Yoga existed, but didn’t have as many postures as modern yoga. Perhaps the argument was made that there is no ancient reference by name to the more exotic postures when compared to more simple ones like Padmasana…I’m not sure of the details myself…
Sounds like your retreaters found a toy! This is precisely why Okumura Roshi founded Sanshin-style practice at Sanshin Zen Temple in Bloomington, Indiana. No stick. Minimal ritual. Just sit. You should sit with us some time! We always have a virtual option.
Physical exercises stretches and the like will have more immediately beneficial effects quicker. Most don't exercise or stretch and once they begin it opens up circulation decreases stress etc. And has spillover.effects in daily life increased confidence productivity etc. Never been to a retreat but I would wager a strong effect would commence if it was 2 weeks long 24/7 silence 30 minutes stretch one hour workout 30 minute stretch every morning before breakfast. 30 minute zazen any posture. Breakfast then just zazen and daily chores and silence repeated all day only 2 meals a day. Recommended able to withstand zazen 2 hours before attempting. Option to opt out always available. And no fucking incense. Lmao. Although according to athlean x stretching before working out minimizes gains by causing the body to be too flexible for maximum gain from most exercises. He recommends stretching after not before. He is an expert in his field too. Of course martial arts can also be added in for those inclined. Big proponent of exercise and martial arts in conjunction with zazen. A comprehensive approach. As organisms i think we function best when we take a comprehensive approach to mental health. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-f3ASI_tQnds.html
According to him then maybe no stretching before zazen either. An afternoon thing maybe? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nLQefKzMVjo.html
