You broke my car! Why did this '14 Outback boomerang back to the CAR WIZARD's shop? 

If your code is "catalyst efficiency below threshold" do NOT automatically replace the cat. Check to see if your exhaust system has a flex-pipe just downstream of the cat (very common), if it does, closely check it for leaks. If it is leaking, it can distort the signal of the secondary o2 sensor (which is for monitoring the catalytic converter operation). I learned this the hard way by replacing my cat myself & not solving the problem.

Long live the Car Wizard's honesty and loyalty in his profession!

There is an old mechanic making a decent income “refurbishing” catalytic converters. The main reason for failure being clogged passages and deposits on the reactive elements. He figured if he could clean out the passages and find something that would remove most of the deposits, the converters would be fine. He has a system of chemicals and flushes that he says accomplished that restoring the converter to near new operation, at 1/4 the cost of a new converter. So far he claims to have restored over 5000 converters, with only 3 failures.

Dude, the emissions codes that make your car seem like it's about to explode are insidious. A great way for the less ethically-inclined to make an easy, dishonest living. Thanks for the updates Mr. and Mrs. Wizard! ✌️❤️🙂🇨🇦

I'm working as semi truck electrician for almost 4 years and I've seen so many weird issues I'm not going to even blink my eyes no matter what you bring to a shop. By far the more bizarre case was a 2012 Volvo that came in for oil and filters service and some small electrical quirks. Everything went smoothly after which the next day truck was towed back with christmas three on dash, randomly blinking exterior lights and literally anything working at all and, of course, owner of the vehicle yelling at everyone. I checked for codes and found dozens and dozens of CAN communication errors for no apparent reasons. I checked all the can lines for short circuits and continuity, unplugged everything out of the cab except of power, unplugged every ecu inside the cab except of main vehicle ecu and the issue was still there. The last remained thing connected to can buses was... a radio. After unplugging it everything went back to life like there was no fault at all! Evening that day owner came back and he was still yelling that I'm trying to cover my mistake. He changed his attitude after we came to the truck, confirmed everything is fine and I plugged the radio back. Guy was so sorry that the next day he brought the bunch of tool truck goodies and he is our loyal customer to this day.

Being understanding and polite gets you much further than blaming others without proof.

My GF's 4Runner got all the idiot lights...ABS, traction control, check engine, and I read that an emission code could cause this. I replaced the FUEL FILLER CAP and that fixed it.

I love the catalytic converter scene, perfect and the sign of the times. 😂 "I have bills to pay" 😂

It’s common to have other issues after having your vehicle in for something else. Many don’t bring in their cars for regular services that would catch many problems not yet known.

It is a good thing that customer was sensible in his approach to solving the problem, same for the Car Wizard . Well done to both.

A bad catalytic converter can in fact do damage. If the cat is clogged, it will cause extremely high exhaust temps to the point where the exhaust manifold will glow red. If it is clogged it is choking the engine. It can lead to syptoms like having a hard time with starting the engine, very bad acceleration and poor fuel economy. I have personally seen complete engine failures from clogged cats where it has burnt exhaust valves and caused catastrophic failure from the intense exhaust temps.

My dads car needs a new cat, I keep telling him park it outside, file a claim

I've eaten crow for a customer on something I know I didn't do, but it was easier than the legal road we'd go down. And like the other retired shop owner, I cut back on any work except for my regulars, and sadly, some have passed on. But for this, you are lucky with such a flexible customer. Its 8 years old, and things happen. I'm glad it wasn't related to your previous work. I too, have an ABS lamp on for years, and my mechanic was cool and explained it was the ABS pump and on a '04 truck, not worth the cost to replace. It does disable cruise, but I don't use it. So with you, the plus here is, you'll get views and ad revenue! Woohoo! You ARE a wizard!

Definitely check that all the readiness monitor diagnostics have passed before buying a used car. As Wizard mentioned, unscrupulous sellers will clear codes when selling. It take a while and many cycles of driving for all tests to complete. If one or more fails, you’ll get a check engine light. I bought a pickup with a gutted catalyst and this was the case. It was on my dime to replace them, so beware.

Great video, Wizard! I fully expected Mrs. Wizard to edit in some Batmanesque Biff and Oof when you retrieved the cat. Youre emissions experiences have inspired me to double my efforts to obtain the 63 Belvedere wagon behind my neighbors house.

The "I got bills to pay" after grabbing the converter part added a nice break into the middle of this video. Thank you for putting these in. They add a good laugh to break up tempo

True, but there are mechanics who purposely do bad work, knowing you’ll come back. My mechanic in Susanville replaced the timing belt on my Subaru, but “forgot” to replace the tensioner pulley or the water pump at the same time. Of course, the tensioner pulley went out about five months later. Was it his fault? Well, according to my friend who has been a mechanic for over 20 years, a mechanic should know that you replace tensioner pulley at the same time as you replace the timing belt on the Subaru.

You all do such a good job explaining these problems/issues. Really enjoy your channel. Thanks.

The reason for the quick return is the badge in the grill. Those aren't stars in the emblem, they are bits of bearing

This is probably a minority of cases, but I had a p0420 on a 2004 legacy, and it turned out to be the oxygen sensors, not the cat. I was also having drivability issues though.

I've done it to myself many times -- had a failure happen soon after a repair and it's natural to think it was related and I messed something up. Then go on a long diagnostic to find it was completely unrelated and had nothing to do with the original work. Or sometimes I'll go on a hunt for one problem and discover something entirely different and even more important. Cars are weird sometimes.

I have a mechanic just like You. I come in with the car, tell him what I think, but tell him that he is the expert, to call me when You find what it is, so we go from there. Works every time. Last time I hade a bad wheelbearing, he change it but ALSO changed the abs-ring at the same time, because it was broken. Morecost? About $10. If I had to come in once again for JUST the ring, well, You know what the job it is. FWD, You figure... Just love You honest experts

I installed a new engine in a Mitsu Galant when I was at the dealer. The car came back 3 weeks later the the D bulb went out in the dash. The service writer told me it was my comeback I reminded him that we don’t install engines through the dash. Come pay day I wasn’t paid for the job. I was pissed. The owner of the dealership had seen me later and know I was pissed. He looked into it and actually tore the writer a new one.

I have a 2011 Outback with the four cylinder and annoying CVT. Twice now, EVERY light on the dash has lit up and the cruise control didn’t work. After internet sleuthing, asking around, and having the codes read, I learned it likely was a bad ground connection. Someone told me to check the battery terminals for corrosion. I looked and the negative terminal was corroded. I took it off, cleaned it up, and it worked for another year and a half. The second time it happened was the same thing; more corrosion so I replaced the terminal. No problem now. What a rip-off that auto manufacturers shut everything down and scare owners to get more business.What a pain!

I've had mechanics forget tools in my cars. I have a collection of screwdrivers, sockets, punches and stuff. Once, when my Passat was in the shop for a wiring harness replacement in the passenger side door, a mechanic forgot his private mobile phone IN THE DOOR and closed it up. The next few days, until the battery ran out, I had phone ringing and text message sounds now and then from the door.

💯. Before I started working for budweiser, I was a technician at 3 different dealership from 1999-2005. Sometimes it's CRAZY how you get done working on a car, few days or weeks later car comes back in for another reason that had NOTHING to do with what I fix on that car. Stuff happens. You never know what's going happen from the next day to the next with computer control vehicle. No Wonder! I went blad myself. UGH! LOL! But! It's still fun too work on vehicles. I actually injoy it still after 30 years of working on vehicles.

Thank you for this video. You Nailed It! "Find out what is going on" before you speak or accuse. I learned a lot!

A friend works at a Mazda / Subaru dealership as a mechanic. He says they sell way more Subarus but the Mazdas are more reliable

I completely understand where the wizard is coming from and I would absolutely trust he and his macanics. However, in my experience there are few mechanics that have your values and expertise. More often than not they lack competence and integrity. My neighbour recently asked to use my scan tool to see why his check engine light was on. His car had just been in for a basic service. The code said there was a problem with the MAF sensor. I opened the bonnet to show him where it was and they hadn't even connected it. I plugged it in and reset the code. Problem solved. I'm a firefighter with basic mechanic skills and yet I am repairing faults of so called professionals. Of course we trust the wizard. Just wish he was in the UK 🇬🇧 😪

Weirdest I've ever had happen like that was my oil sump springing a leak on the way home from the dealership after a full service. Not their fault, just pure bad luck on getting the thing hit by a pebble or something kicked up from the freeway driving home and it already being old (this was a 15 year old car, original part). Never blamed the shop for it. What I DID blame the dealership for (another dealership, another brand) was running out of wiper fluid not 24 hours after a major service, and the mechanic had checked the box that he'd filled up the reservoir.

I had an inefficient cat code on my 14 Crosstrek for a little bit, then had my battery replaced and it cleared the check engine code. The main difference was that only the check engine light was on. However, when the stupid brake lamp switch burned out my dash looked like christmas lights and i damn near had a panic attack.

I work at a car wash that does interiors too. We had this Range Rover come in and it sounded like it was straight piped or something. I looked under the car and his cat was chopped right off in the middle.

If there's a problem with something and you are nice to the vendor, typically they will bend over backwards for you.

Car wizard video in the middle of me doing my breaks. Love to watch while I work!

Wizard is super knowledgeable and mentioned reading the live scan data, so his analysis is likely correct. FYI, my 2010 did the same thing. I replaced the corroded body to ground strap, added a second on the other side of the engine, did a hard reset and a let the computer go through a new drive cycle. It never came back on for 40k miles and remains off to this day.

My 2013 Chevy Impala is crazy with those emissions codes. OMG the issues. Luckily I have a trusted mechanic. Once one of those engine lights comes on it disables my remote start as well.

It’s a good thing none of my cars have emission controls. 😉😂 The electronics are so tied together it’s ridiculous. To cutoff your a/c due to an emissions?!?! That’s insane!

those subie cats if you keep all the heat shields intact and dont cut it up, can be worth like 1100$

Here in Commierado, if you're due for an emissions check, you can't renew your plates if you don't fix it. If it's not repairable, you have to prove you've spent a specific amount of money trying to repair it.

All Subaru's past 2005ish if you get a a check engine light it will throw on a sea of other codes in many systems. On the 14 outback the brake light will come on on a check engine light because it has an electric e brake and that goes for ALL Subaru's with an electric e brake.

Thanks for the awesome video, CW! My question for you, and maybe you said it, but did you use an OEM catalytic converters or did you go aftermarket? Love the videos, they break up my day of spreadsheets and construction prints.

Honda shuts off traction control, just went through this

I work at an auto parts retailer who offers free check engine light diagnostic. I am surprised how many times I see that cat efficiency code. It may be that monitoring is more strict, but I can't help but wonder if they just aren't building the damn things cheaper. My wife's first car went 320 thousand miles before we sold it. I replaced the entire exhaust system twice in that time, except for the catalytic converter. 1994 Mazda Protege.

I worked for 2 years (before I retired) managing a battery shop... we carried replacement batteries for all manner of things, from cars and trucks to golf carts to laptops and cell phones. Of course, our bread and butter was replacing automotive batteries. Most people don't know how much trouble can be caused by simply replacing a 12 volt car battery... especially in newer vehicles! Our company was a stickler for keeping a 12 volt power source attached to the car's electrical system while the replacement was being done so that the computers in the vehicle are kept powered up. Failure to do this can result in multiple system faults when the new battery is installed! The days of the home mechanic performing such a (formerly) simple thing like installing a new battery are over... especially on expensive imports (read: Mercedes and BMW). Listen to the Car Wizard-- he knows what he is talking about!

The used wheel bearings probably put the engine under a bit of effort, computers sense that, giving a bit more play in the limits readings of the O2 sensors. You change the bearings, no more effort, the O2 limits goes back to normal and give you an alert because the cat was blocked all along.

I have a 2016 Toyota Camry. The car had abs light come on with the check engine light. It had the emissions code. The canister by the gas tank is the problem. It's really sad car companies make other lights come on for problems not related to actual problem.

I have been having these conversations regularly with customers. They don't realize that car makers are linking emission issues to daily driving functions to force people to fix the emission issue. I have more than once had to look up sources such as yourself to prove to the customer that I am in fact not trying to put one over on them....so THANK YOU for publishing this info.

Same happened to me years ago for internet. We worked on a connection outside the customer's house. He called in the next day stating that his "TV" always stays on. His monitor will not go to sleep anymore. I told him that would be the same as me changing your brakes and now your windows won't roll down. He understood and realized we did not mess up his computer.

I'd swap the rear O2 sensor first, just to be sure, since these cat parts are quite expensive and sometimes....it's just the sensor. And 42 cats in stock can also be because they are stolen a lot?

One reason I don’t work on friends vehicles because once you do you’ve adopted it.

Car will be back soon :) the cat just doesn't go out so easily. Waiting for the headgasket replacement video on this same car soon. Had the same codes and finally discovered that headgaskets/ valve stems were causing internal leaks which lead to higher emissions which threw the same code.

Retired technician here…. In the 80’s, I had an elderly lady do her best to get me fired from my job because the brake lamps in her 77 LTD quit working after I did an oil change.. thank goodness for a great boss… she was spitting mad…

We have a 21 Forester Sport and within 2000 miles we kept getting codes regarding an evap leak. That problem triggers every warning light and disables eye sight. Very annoying.

I had no idea cars were setup to shut down other systems when catalytic converter fails

Months ago I was at this shop that I know the owner. He told me he will give me a good deal that the customer did not pay her $3,000 bill and turned into the title to the shop when that Honda worth at least 5k. I said ok will buy it for 3k just help him to recover the cost to charge her to fix. After driving away the engine light came on. I took it back and he told me it is the cat. I said no problem. I took it to an exhaust shop that owner put in a new cat for $550 in 15 min. Still a great deal for this Honda when he fixed up all the issues including the engine mount!

Back in the day my 06 XT Forester had the cruise control disabled by dodgy Secondary Air valves. The dealer quoted $4200 to replace the dodgy air valves even though the XT was only a couple of weeks out of warranty.

The Car Wizards has the coolest walk on RU-vid! I'd love to see a continuous loop video of him just waddling around on his stubby little legs with Pantera's WALK as the background music!

A Subaru back at the shop three days later? Sounds like the Outback I owned.

When I get a code that says the cat is below normal efficiency, that means the cat needs replacing, but instead of replacing an expensive catalytic converter, I just add an extension to the mounting port for the oxygen sensor (I add two 'anti-fouling extensions, and then screw the oxygen sensor into that). This tricks the oxygen sensor into thinking that everything is okay with the cat. It is a simple trick that will get your car past the emissions check.

I did mechanics and can tell you, you could change someone's oil a brake light bulb could burn out and they blame it on you. Even though I've known of mechanics that fix with one hand and break with the other. Having a trusted mechanic is key and not cheap. Pay cheap pay twice.

I wonder what the mileage is on this Subaru? Because, considering what new cars cost nowadays, I don't expect my catalytic converter to fail after eight years of ownership.

Wished they'd stop making the cat built in with the header/mainfold instead of just being able to unbolt 4 bolts and swap them out like the old days.

I currently have a check engine light and TRACTION CONTROL light on. There is only one code: the downstream O2 sensor. When I first had those lights it was the upstream sensor. Replaced it, ran a couple days, lights came back on. I haven't bothered to do the downstream sensor yet but surprising to me O2 sensors throw a TRAC light.

Again I feel like your judgement is clouded because you're a good mechanic that does good work. I can think of 5+ occasions off the top of my head where a vehicle that was mine or a family members was returned in worse condition than what it was dropped off. The first example is my mom taking her car to get the brakes done and the mechnic broke one of two bolts holding on her rear caliper and just left it like that!! I know because I did the brakes previously and then checked after his work was done and noticed the missing bolt. I had a second mechanic charge me for a wheel bearing replacement that he never actually did which caused more issues. He finally ended up admitting thay he didnt actually change it because it was "fine" and "charged by mistake". Two seperate times, once on my car, and once on my mothers, the muffler system was replaced without adequate support. The first time I instantly drive it back to the shop because the muffler sounded like an ak-47 against my frame. He goes "oops" I fogot the rear hanger. My mom had an almost identical sitation bit the muffler just fell off from lack of support. My mom bought a used truck in the early 2000's that had a blown engine in the first week of ownership. The dealer would keep it for weeks and return it just before they would get in legal trouble claiming it to be "fixed". The reality is that this shop didnt really know how to fix it or knowingly sold us a destroyed vehicle and then rufused to honor their warrenty. Another time I went for an inspection and the mechanic came in and said that my transmission fluid was really bad and needed to be changed. This was hilarious because I had actually had it done a few days prior. I called him out on the spot and it was VERY uncomfortable. After the inspection I checked the fluid just to make sure and .....yup brand new. There many more Shady dealings and lies I just cant type all day. Most of this work was done at different shops as well meaning that half the mechics in my area are just terrible. The reality is that many mechanics are SHIT. It unfortunate that the car wizard is not aware of the reality for many americans working with "mechanics"

Key question: How much OIL is the car burning between oil changes?

Subaru with a bad catalyst who would have thought🤫 those flat 4 and 6 engines like to burn oil past 100,000 miles the newer engines start doing it much earlier from the low friction piston rings. Either way between the burning of oil and the head gasket issues a lot of the older engines had it's no wonder the catalysts fail like they do.

What I hate about shops is that they know you have another car to drive they put you on the bottom of the list even though you scheduled that day to have it fixed and it aint fixed and they have it 2 weeks later still not fixed and they have the parts for it and just don't do it and u have been going to that shop for years. And u r like best friends with him

Cell fix helps also. Subaru have often that problem. You need to remove the second sensor outside of the exhaust flow.

Sounds like this car suffered the infamous Subaru "Disco Dashboard" that kills the cruise control and flashes everything at you. LOL! I own two of 'em and this has happened to me for something as simple as a loose gas cap. Subaru really wants to owner to acknowledge that something is amiss and needs attention right now. As for the P0420 code, a failed PCV valve on one of mine caused continuous oil mist to carbon up both O2 sensors and set the code. Replaced the PCV ($16 from Subaru), both O2 sensors (OEM Denso units from Rockauto, total of $171 for both) and, VOILA! No more issues after 1500 miles (I was getting P0420 every 50 to 125 miles previously). YMMV...

Bad things come in threes, so I'm already looking forward to the next video on this Outback.

I'm just an appliance tech and the price tag for washer/dryer purchase /repair is different from car prices ,but last week I had one customer who called me and said "After you replaced a broken belt on my dryer (2 months back the dryer drum stopped rotating ) today it stopped heating ! You destroyed it !" so I told her that dentist who replaced your tooth filling has no responsibility for diarrhea what happened to you 2 month later. Yes I know I have no customer service skills but it feels so genuine and good to be yourself !

Check for oil consumption… subies are known for drinking oil. Bump from 0w20 to 5w30 ( manual says use that weight for heavy duty severe service ) it reduced my subies oil use to 1/4 qt per 3000mi from 1 qt per 3000mi. Out in Las Vegas when it’s real hot, like 120deg, and stop n go, that is categorized as severe.

What I believe is that by placing a vehicle on and off of a lift can cause flexing in parts of a vehicle that can just be enough to cause issues. It can be enough to flex hoses, electric lines, and other parts and if something was already prepared to fail the extra movement can just finally be enough to trigger the problem or code. Like a rusty pipe that doesn’t leak until you move it then it starts leaking or breaks.

The 2014 Outback is known for burning oil even at low miles. Could be why the cat went out (prematurely IMO). Tell your customer to check his oil often. I'd be trading it in while the market is still good.

My girlfriend has a 13 Outback and she had the exact same thing happen where the bearings went bad and probably went too long replacing them to the point of loud grinding, then a few months later her cat needed replaced but had it taken care of quicker than the bearings. A few more months and her engine completely failed and needed a new engine(possible lack of oil changes) but she had the exact same issues as this one. So certain things are common and I never could get straight answers til you pointed them out. Not only thank you but to your dentist friend for having the same car. The Wizard is magic.

I hear you, and I understand completely. I am an electrician and I deal with complaints like this all the time. However, I also I’m not perfect and a time or two did cause an issue. It also helps not to be so defensive

A tire shop replaced the clutch in my '92 Acura Integra. We later noticed the temperature gauge showed the engine was occasionally overheating. (Spoiler Alert: I knew it was not actually overheating because the gauge would quickly go from normal to hot and back.) The same shop thought it was the thermostat, but the problem returned. We took it to the dealer and they ran tests and confirmed it was overheating, and blamed it on an incorrect sealant used on the thermostat. We took it back to the tire shop and they eventually noticed that there was a spark at a cable connection on the transmission. They tightened it and the "engine temperature problems" were fixed.

This also happens if you forget to put your gas cap on your car. To get rid of the lights you have to disconnect the battery. Scared me when it happened.

same with houses too Wiz! Fix a hot water heater and they call you for a sewer plug next day swearing that the HW tank had something to do with it! And yes the bill was doubled because they screamed at my wife. Bad Idea

Hoping Mr Wizard checked the sensor data, not just catalyst data. Speaking as an 8 year Subie tech, usually the o2 or air/fuel sensor starts to fail, which causes the catalyst to fail. If you replace just the cat, the bad sensors will cause the new catalyst to fail.

In most cases its the O2 sensors , i usually connected a live diagnostic and see if its the "working at all"

In the current environment, (for me) that Subaru is well worth investing several hundred/coupla grand on to maintain a trusted/reliable car and avoid purchasing another new or used vehicle. Entirely worth it. Shame Subaru stopped offering the Outback with a manual transmission option around 2010, but hey - that's also happening all over. Thanks Car Wizard.

I know I'm beating a dead horse to death, but if you call bilstein in Germany, you tell them the particular shock or strut that you're looking for, it's it's quite possible that they might have some NOS. Sometimes, they might produce one for you or a set for you, providing that they still have the material in stock. Hope this helps.

I remember driving my 2014 outback in South Carolina when it was winter time. My check engine light came on. I put in my bluetooth OBD 2 reader and pulled up the Torque App on my phone. Code told me the coolant was running too cold lmao. I love this car. Toyota Injectors, an engine that gives plenty of mileage, the cvt is okay at best.

Altima has two converters, just crazy

You’re lucky you can charge people double when you feel like it. Those of us in the medical field are bound by set fees from insurance companies 😑

The reason the pcm code tricked the abs system is it uses engine data to facilitate the trac control and throttle stuff which is part of the abs system!

Ahhh the old "sincyou" "Since you changed my oil my wheel bearing is now going out". On my 2005 Lexus LX470 the cats are no good and the check engine is on for a PO420. Well the computer disabled the stability control and traction control. What a great system they have designed.

Not sure why Subaru is known to be so reliable... literally every person i know that has one either has or had a blown head gasket or needs to add a quart of oil every thousand miles 🤔 Yet other car brands that do the same thing are called POS's?? I don't get it🤔

with a Subaru, when the CEL comes on, all the other systems get disabled, causing their lights to come on

The warranty on a Subaru catalytic converter and engine control module is 8 years or 130,000 km (80,000 miles). A lot of times it is the front oxygen sensor on a Subaru 2.5 engine that goes bad.

My RAV4 threw a check engine light, Auto LSD, and traction control warning all from overfilling the gas tank and damaging the charcoal canister purge valve (P0446 ). Once the canister was fixed and the errors cleared, they didn't return.

I own a Volvo C30 with 250.000KM and a few month ago the check engine light come on...i scan myself for code and it was the same code for the catalitic converter...after a few days the ceck engine light is gone by itself (i did not clear the codes)...and after six month still no light and the car goes strong with no problems...👍👍

Part of the issue is there are shops out there breaking stuff. I’ve fixed things that you can see where it was damaged on purpose. Had a corvette that someone put a rag in the exhaust to make it run bad.

I'm my teens I took my 1990 325i for tires and by the time I got home the car was jumping back and forth. Opened the air filter housing and seen a rag spread out nicely around my air filter !!! I went back and gave them HELL!!!!

Such "trickery" to get pollution system fix when they fail should be ILLEGAL.

The oxygen sensors or catalytic converter are probably failing from being fouled by a steady diet of oil these FB25Bs enjoyed so much.

The reason these relatively modern cars shutdown convenient systems from a bad catalysts is because you are polluting the air with an inefficient cat, so its really important for the climate for you to replace it

So… exhaust codes also? About a year ago I had nearly every indicator on my ‘12 Impreza light up on the way home. It was a transmission code. I ended up having to replace the transmission valve body. I think it’s messed up to scare the hell out of a driver by lighting up the entire dash for a single DTC. I’m just glad I’m in the biz and realized it was a transmission issue and confirmed with a code scanner.

Thats the annoying part with Subaru how everything runs through the biu and when one system faults, every light pops on. But also a smart Idea to make sure the customer sees and knows something is wrong. I have also had issues with the front A/F sensor when the front cover starts to leak, oil drops right on to the A/F sensor to where it shows faulty readings. If they don’t fix the leaks and want to do just the sensor I also recommend the O2 sensor while we’re at it