That whole “passing the torch“ only works if the guy getting it is already over with the fans to begin with. If he’s not over with the fans, the “passing the torch“ doesn’t work in my opinion.
Well if the guy is already over, then the win isn't what makes him over. Hence why "passing the torch" doesn't really work. Because he already had it and it wasn't yours to give
@@DaveKnowsWrestling That's exactly what reddragon said. Many fans say the same thing. In fact, this was their argument against Brock Lesnar ending The Undertaker's WrestleMania streak.
It is incredible though how both Reigns and rock's careers paralleled. Both were hand picked stars, both part of the Samoan family, both got relentlessly booed, both eventually turned heel, and both eventually got cheers during their heel periods and rejuvenated their careers
Except The Rock really got over after his die rocky die promo after joining the Nation of Domination Roman thanks to paul heyman family an wwe backing is what finally got him over as a heel Though it has more than run it course, for those of us who lived thru it.. doesnt this feel even more dragged out than hogan nwo run ins galore?!?
@@aceassn716Vince McMahon was just more stubborn to push Roman as a babyface. They dragged that shit out for years, in a way, it made his eventual heel turn a lot more cathartic and satisfying. It adds to the lore of the character, especially in a meta context. They let Rocky turn heel sooner, and im sure it would’ve worked for Roman had they done it in, say, 2017 after beating the Undertaker and his heat was at an all time high, but we got what we got. And in hindsight, I think what we got has been pretty good for the most part.
I think Mania 3 is the example. The “torch” has to be passed before the match. The guy getting the win has to already be over and presented as “the guy” . As was the case with Hogan/Andre
With this in mind, Theory should've lost to Cena, which would've gave us Cena vs Logan at Summerslam for the U.S Title and allow Theory to further develop his character without having a title reign attached.
I agree with you Dave,it's all a storytelling matter. People sometimes forget how good booking and a well-written storyline can help a wrestler to increase in popularity and status. The best example for me is that of Kazuchika Okada,which established himself not just by defeating Tanahashi the first time ,but developing and evolving his carachter in every single match against the ace and in the following tournaments,in a 4 year climax that led us to the WK10 mani event. PS: Sorry if i wrote something wrong, English isn't my first language. Greetings from Italy Dave!
The thing with passing the torch matches is that the Booker and the fans both need to be on the same page and when these matches include titles the up and comer needs to win. I’ll give few examples here. The first two being Wrestlemania 21. You have two long reigning heel champions that the crowd vilify, they’ve run through all their challenges except for Batista and Cena who’ve both been built up across months, Cena as the fan favorite building good will through a U.S. title runs and Batista with a long term story. Them winning elevated both to the main event Then you have the passing the torch matches where winning is immaterial like Cena and Bray Wyatt at Wrestlemania, Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold and Roddy Piper vs. Bret Hart. In those matches without the title it’s immaterial if the up and comer wins or not, what matters is how it’s presented. This is where the Cena vs. Theory match fails. Theory is presented as a prodigy, someone who’s suppose to be the next big star, but every match he’s booked in he wins like he’s the Miz barely scraping by and only winning from someone else’s work or not winning clean. It creates dissonance with the audience where you are telling them one thing, but what you show tells them something completely else. So the heat isn’t on the talent, it’s on the dissonance in the presentation. That’s why Chili’s waiter Baron Corbin got nothing from beating Kurt.
I wrote a longer one that it deleted because I went off but yes you’re completely right. It is the crowning moment, the final touch. It works when everything is already in place. Your story and character gets you there, but it is moments that immortalise you. Wrestlemania 21, sting vs flair, hardys winning in 08, Shawn vs razor. You’re already over, you need the moment to cement yourself in history. Jinder didn’t work because the fans were never behind him. Could wade Barrett have had a storied main event career if nexus went over? Who knows, but probably at least get a couple more titles and who knows what else. What is big shows career if he doesn’t go over hogan? They do all the work to get there and in position but it’s the moments that mean things and beating the rock who is a transitional champ part timer isn’t placing you in the annuls of history referred to in every hype package for you for years. Toppling roman in a 30 minute gruelling match at mania is.
The problem with the Cena WM21 part is that after winning Cena was getting booed as a babyface champion. It's only now that the IWC loves John Cena that we pretend like this formula worked. The other part of it is that JBL was never really over as a heel either
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Cena was divisive within the IWC but overall his run as the Ace was resoundingly successful, critically as well as commercially. Critically, we have the litany of great matches, rivalries and moments which he was involved in. As much as the average "smark" despised him they were still mostly drawn toward his programs with Edge, HBK, Angle, Orton and Punk. Commercially, well, the numbers are no secret. The logical follow up from your argument is that Cena shouldn't have been the face of the company at all, since fans were always chanting "Cena sucks" years into his run. But I doubt that is your contention.
That is not the logical follow up as it does not stick to the argument. The point is when does a win alone get someone over. Forget about your alleged critical response. Cena was less over as a whole after defeating JBL. Thus reaffirming the statement
In order for “getting the rub” to work, you need: 1. The person getting the rub needs to already be over with fans. 2. You need to follow up and do interesting stuff with them afterwards.
with cody, him winning at 39 was always going to be bad, I remember thinking if he won, what storyline would they put him in after, you can't have roman take all the heat off of him when things get bad for him, becaue he passed the torch, and everyone was enforcing him to finish off his bloodline story at that time, him with brock wouldn't do much, because it would be obvious he is retaining and the promo battles would be boring, randy and punk weren't around at that time either, feud with rollins or ko??? or who??? I saw failure from a mile away, when I saw them make roman win, I was so happy, and telling people you have no idea how much triple h saved cody's career, especially since he books these and you guys clame he knows lots about the business because he was at the top in the popular eras, and they are calling me this and that, saw randy and punk returned in survivor series, and that was the nail on the coffin for me about triple h
I find it funny that as soon as Cody got pinned at WM39, people forgot that the IWC always says that fans turn on babyface champions. And that they claimed (they were wrong) that fans were turning on Cody for Sami. And that they also said Cody can't get over when he was in AEW. Now he was the top merch seller in WWE for Dec 2023, even over Roman and even over Punk. The job did wonders for him, but marks just don't want to admit it
You pretty much summed up the exact reasons as to why passing the torch doesn't always work. There are so many recent examples of where it hasn't worked. Let's just say Cody had beaten Roman at Mania 39. The title reign would have run its course in less than a year. It would be the same thing if he was to beat him this year. The IWC always pushes for these passing of the torch moments when it comes to their favourite wrestlers, yet they're the first to question why the rub didn't work or why the title reign falls flat. Hell, I saw a Twitter account complaining that Cena losing to Theory & Solo hasn't worked. The IWC is their own worst enemy.
The way to book that would have required Orton to be healthy Say he rkos Solo, then rkos cody after a hug, then he dodges a spear rkos roman, throws cody over roman.. new champion Now with all of their history plus the way the match ended can continue to have storylines along with the matches But of course it wasnt meant to be
@@aceassn716 thats too convoluted. This isn’t the attitude era where that many shenanigans need to happen. I’m not sure what the OC is talking about, but Cody is over. Almost as over as Cena was in 06-07 amongst kids and women, not smarks like the majority of people commenting. Cody should win. Plain & simple.
A lot of these torch passing moments happen at the end of these people's careers. Rock Hogan / Rock Cena both happened when the younger star was established in their careers. They didn't pass the torch per say, they just had big matches against older stars. Maybe they represent a point where the legend finishes their career and the established star hits the peak of their career. Idk
One of my favorites is Roddy Piper doing the job to Bret Hart at Mania 8. Great match, but Roddy had protected himself so well for so long that Bret beating him clean by Piper’s own decision told the world that the vets respected Bret.
The fact is you can’t pass the torch with mediocre matches, like Cena vs Theory. They have to be epic matches that had excellent storytelling. And the guy has to be over with the fans wanting it to happen.
Using Goldberg vs. Hogan, as an example, Goldberg didn't need the win. He was super over and Hogan losing to him didn't elevate him to main event as Hogan was still there.
Personally, I think if they're gonna put the Rock against Roman, they should have that match AFTER Roman has already lost the title. The Bloodline can keep going after Roman loses the title, and that's when Roman and Rock happens, and the Rock brings an end to the Bloodline by beating Roman after getting Solo and Jimmy to be their own men. Someone who is going to be around full time for the championship reign (no pun intended) that follows.
Right. If Rock beats Roman, either Rock drops the belt REALLY quickly afterwards because he's got another movie he has to run out to make, or he disappears for five months until Summerslam and there's no WWE Champion around at all. It really would de-value the title that the ONE GUY who was able to beat the longest running champion in decades, isn't around to defend it and when he does he loses it right away. Feels very deflating and pointless. Nobody really gets over at the end of the day. I'm not saying that the guy who dethrones Roman has to be some brand new guy. He can be an established star, but he has to be around to benefit from the triumph. Also, The Rock got so injured in his last match against Cena a decade ago, and he's even LARGER and OLDER now. I'd be shocked if he didn't pull a bunch of muscles again fighting Roman now. It's so hard jumping back into the ring after all those years. Weight training is one thing, putting yourself back through the process of taking bumps and working a match is entirely different.
The Rock, also didn't get over by passing the torch. His situation was very similar to Roman Reigns, the WWF/E pushed him to the moon when he first showed up as Rocky Maivia in 1996 - 97. They had him beat Triple H for the Intercontinental championship, but did that get him over ? NOPE, the crowd hated Rocky. It took a heel turn, and him joining The Nation while getting rid of his earlier boring Rocky Maivia gimmick to finally get him over.
Drew’s promo against Punk showed that he can hang with Punk on the mic and the crowd was excited for the interaction. Jinder’s promo with The Rock was Rock carrying this man the entire promo and when it was with Seth, you could see the difference.
Good post. Always kinda bothered me how after the Attitude era, WWE kept going back to the well of trying to elevate an up and comer by having them beat the established main scented. You mentioned Roman, and people beating Cena, but before then it was HHH, and how everyone had to beat him at the end of the day, whether it made sense or not. Definitely felt a little lazy compared to some of my favorite rivalries were ones like HHH and Rock, who basically established each other over a period of about 4 years or so, or Bret and Austin, where Austin never beat Bret clean and came out the most over guy in the company. Not sure where the heat transference concept came from when, to your point, the best way to get people over has always been to just invest in their characters and storytelling. To extent it doesn’t work though, how much do you think today’s emphasis on workrate and “good matches” has something to do with it? As much as Brock breaking the streak boosted his rep, him SQUASHING Cena, in a time when that was unheard of, is what really set him apart from the rest of the roster. Same with Goldberg at Survivor Series vs Brock. The aforementioned Warrior match over HTM, and the stuff like the Kid going over Razor on Raw or Barry Horowitz beating Skip. These were great moments, not the 5 star matches we’ve been conditioned to expect. Even for myself, I never took Rock seriously as a main eventer until I saw him win a punch exchange with Taker, who came off invincible. And I think most people knew it was fixed even back then, but when you condition fans that everything has to be a 20 minute back and forth epic with multiple finishers in order to be acceptable, it’s arguably gonna make these matches, and by extension these star making moments, come off less special when they occur.
I think the issue here is the examples: none of these people were over. Roman wasn't over until he turned heel and joined Heyman (after going away, btw). Baron Corbin will never be over. I think the person beating Roman needs to already have tremendous momentum, which is why LA Knight and Cody make the most sense. It would be more like Sting beating Flair for the title, cementing him as a main event guy. The counter argument here would be that those guys are already over, but I feel like LA Knight (unlike Cody) is seen more as someone who CAN be in the main event, but not as *A* main eventer, if that makes sense.
I feel like LA Knight is actually organically over, Cody is only over because they heard about his stipulation in his contract, and gave off hope he was beating roman, without the heat magnetman of roman, he wouldn't be that over, la knight got over by himself
Another falsehood I've been thinking of is how people think a company signing a famous wrestler will grow the company. Very few wrestlers are over enough to singlehandedly make a difference.
Thank you! It's like the IWC extremely overestimate the drawing ability of a lot of wrestlers. And in turn so do many promoters too. Edge is the best example for me of a guy who can't draw a dime while people believe him to be some kind of star
No arguments here I agree with you ultimately just pointing out the elevating the fresh talent part in the sense of most wanting Cody to finish the story when at this point he’s neither fresh talent nor needs to be elevated.
I swear the same people who were saying "Of course people won't turn on Cody for Sami Zayn" this time last year are the same people hoping and praying for people to turn on The Rock.
wrestlelamia even stated that it was leaked backstage that wwe was going to have sami quickly jobbing to roman at EC, so they can kill the crowd getting behind him and splitting with cody and getting mixed reactions, another daniel bryan situation they didn't want to deal with, they literally reported that, lol, I was like, what???
Some of them probably are. But I try to remember the internet isn't one fickle person. It's people who come here to complain and when they get what they want they shut up and all the people who didn't want it come on to complain instead. So it seems like one indecisive nutcase is going off the rails. Although, it is an echo chamber and sometimes people can't help but to regurgitate the most recent thing they heard even if it contradicts what they've previously said. This is why I don't bother with the IWC any more than I have to
@@DaveKnowsWrestling yeah and a lot of people have already made up their minds on angles before they even happen. Narratives like "passing the torch", "champions can NEVER lose or they lose credibility" or "the reign is never as good as the chase" are taken like the gospel. Anyways, hopefully the Road to Wrestlemania is fun.
Cena vs Angle at Mania to retire Angle wasn't about "passing the torch" or trying to get anyone over. It was sending a legend off in the best way possible. Angle was Cena's first main roster opponent, then Cena was going to be Angle's last opponent. You know, some of that long term story telling that you mentioned in the previous video? Also, I'd argue against Brock. Whether he won or lost against 'Taker at Mania. Regardless of how he was booked after. He was already super over. Which is why fans will argue against him beating the streak because he didn't need it. It was viewed the same as winning the belt it was supposed to be used to get an up and coming guy, completely over.
Great video Dave , Its funny how many of these “rubs” Roman got for beating the part timers made the fans like him less, because we all know he is there because thats who WWE sees as a safe, no drama champion. Hopefully as his merch sales drop WWE will rotate him out and we will get someone fresh in the roll
I say let him keep going for a while -- we only just got decent showings from him in the past couple years, and he took over half a decade to cook. He's gotta go sometime soon, sure, but I'm not chomping at the bit for it, and this is coming from someone who was still willing to dunk on his work while he was fighting his Lukemia.
Holy crap! I never realized how much LOSING a match could actually elevate someone. I already knew that having someone lose a match by being screwed over was a good way to have them lose without making them look weak. Such as Rhodes losing to Reigns due to interference. One man had the match won but was cheated. The other won the match but only due to interference. Who comes out looking stronger? But your mentioning of the Undertaker/Mankind hell in a cell match was ESPECIALLY illuminating. Mankind didn’t get over by beating Taker or even giving him a good fight. When you really think about it, the match was actually pretty one-sided. Mankind got thrown off the cell, through the cell, slammed onto thumbtacks and then lost the match. It was his willingness to keep fighting that endeared him to the audience; more so than winning the match ever could. Therefore, opening the door for future pushes and championship reigns later down the road.
Hi Dave! Inspired by your “big picture, not small piece” mentality, I’d say that LA Knight is still doing very well despite losing to Roman Reigns in Saudi Arabia . And beating AJ Styles at WM definitely helped too. I don’t agree that LA Knight’s momentum disappeared after losing to Roman. Oh, I almost forgot: *YEAH!*
The Head of the Table storyline is BUILT around The Rock beating Reigns, in my opinion. As Rock was transitioning to acting, I remember "the family" had some ceremony declaring him the new "High Chief." The Bloodline storyline is just piggybacking off of that to its logical conclusion. I'm all for Rock beating Roman, but the company needs a champion that can show up more than once a year. Hell, Reigns isn't even there enough to be champion anymore!
The rock and roman Wrestle.... Doesn't matter what PPV as long as there is a buildup. Rock wins. They could have the rock hold on to it for a couple of months. Maybe defend it at a pay-per-view. Then heading to a pay-per-view where a multi man match occurs have the rock lose to one of the people in the match. And then you continue storylines from there. ????? Then you could have multiple people vying for the belt while Roman gonna goes through a downward part of his storyline where he loses his group, the tribe goes against him and he becomes an outcast. ???🤷♂️??? This way you could start having multiple big names in the title picture again. Chaos😅
I gave up on wrestling because of the determination to ignore fans and push whoever the company decided was their "it guy". I know that's not a recent invention, but it became too prominent to push past. If felt like I was tuning in to confirm who Vince likes best, and there's no point in that.
I get the frustration. For me its not them pushing their "it guy." That I understand. John Cena makes you money, so you push him. It's when they push people that don't draw, Brock, Ronda, Edge etc. That's what really gets me
@@DaveKnowsWrestling When fans are screaming for a specific guy and are dying to give the company their money, but the suits STILL say no and ride their current cash cow after half the audience is already sick of him, that drives me nuts. I get not going overboard for every flavor of the month that comes along, but squeezing every last bit of value out of one star before allowing the next to shine makes for a very boring product.
Roman was getting over with a lot of people a few months before that Royal Rumble. Some people were big on Rusev too. When goat boy came back, fans melted down and didn't want to see anything else but him winning the whole thing again. Bringing him back when they did was the biggest mistake. Having Rusev lay low and be the last guy to be eliminated was another mistake. Finally, they pulled all that crap in the city of brotherly "Lets punch horses and flip cars". Crowds there always cheer heels, buck trends, and get upset when things don't go their way and often the internet will follow their lead. They honestly should have called the audible after seeing how the crowd reacted to Rusev and had him win. It was the only way they could halfway salvage things after bringing Brian back. Instead they knew they messed up and brought in the Rock, and even he couldn't salvage that blunder. If Rollins wasn't going to cash in his MITB contract at 'Mania, then how long was he supposed to hold on to it? I don't think that was done last minute.
@@michaelsinger4638 agreed, it was so obvious roman was winning, and should have pulled a swerve, and have dean win, and main event with brock, and let roman have more time to be solo, not push him to the moon, glad he never won at wm31, nothing worked except him threatening vince to let him do it his way with his gimmick and letting him finally turn heel, and now he is doing well promostyle, and is decent in the ring, and gets loud reactions and draws lots of ratings, still hated, but not the most hated anymore, and shouldn't be because thats his gimmick now
Bro the thing is that the guys that you mentioned (Cody, Knight, Walter) already are hot, the win against Roman would just solidify them to be the faces of the company
I like the match, I hate the way they did it. From just about every angle you can slice it. A much older 55 year old Rock is supposed to Beat Roman at his highest career point? Thats devaluing your star and making him look weak. A super altruistic Cody wins the Royale Rumble just to give his opportunity away? Thats out of Character, it wastes a lot of build-up time, and it reeks of corporate greed. Just when we get rid of McMahon and his erratic and irrational booking, they do exactly what McMahon would do. They could have had Solo run Cody over with a car and then sub in the Rock. The decline from the early 2000's is evidence that McMahon has severely hurt the buisness. 2004 when the Rock retired the viewership was at 3.67, which was down from a 5.88 in 2000, the two years after Rocks retirement, the ratings went slightly up, then basically steadily declined. I think with McMahon out that it's definitely on an upswing but the newest number are at 1.85 from 2022. I cant predict the future but it just seems like TKO is cashing in their chips to make short term big money but with alot of fans really upset, this might equal stagnet long-term growth. Why didnt they just put Rock in at #30 and win the damn Rumble? So stupid.
I find it interesting that you said both "reeks of corporate greed" and "severely hurt the business" without seeing the contradiction there. Plus you spelled business wrong.
It didn't work when they ended the streak for roman didn't work when he beat triple H or taker himself and sadly dave it won't work after he beats the rock
Of course it’s all about the story. That’s why it shouldn’t be based on what draws the most money. Unless you want the card to be soured on. That’s why Rock shouldn’t dethrone Roman. The timing is not right. (**elevating still works though **)
Samoans run the wrestling business. Samoa Joe aew world champ, Roman reigns longest reigning champion on the road to passing hulk hogan, umaga son being a big part of booker t wrestling promotion.
I noticed gen Z is to ruthless nower days what is definetly responsible for a toxic environment on todays squared circle! The gen Z Fans are ruining everything and make others responsible!
@@brandonperkins176 yes because if you want to see these guys stay in the company, they need to make a lot of money to PAY them! did you guys forget that to do???? or are you gonna complain, "we want this! we want that!" blah blah blah
Roman should have lost the belt along time ago, and has gotten stale and old along with others on the roster like Lynch too. Roman was a failed project by vince who come hell or high water was going to get him over instead of biting the bullet and moving on to someone else, but vince and his fetishes..
Why because you say so? In terms of profitability, Roman has proven his worth. But ultimately, your beef is that Vince pushes who he likes. Which if you ran a company, is exactly what you would do. Plus, Vince isn't even in charge anymore, and Becky isn't even the champ
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Still doesnt change that Reigns was pushed well beyond his means till the fans turned against him because of vince and are tired of his part time status, ect. And Becky's gimmick is whats old. And I would have pushed who the fans liked, like say Bryan, Cody, Cesaro (with manager) ect and would not have put the belt on reigns till around now, when he wasnt so green and had proven himself, and it wouldnt be a 3 year reign either as they dont work in the modern era.
Again Romans merch sales back then and still now plus his TV ratings show that he does draw. Do I like Cesaro and the like way more yes. But the sales show that other people outside of the IWC support him with money. You are only looking at this from your perspective
