The new cars are technological wonders, but its tough to top the feel of having lockable center and rear differentials in the gen 1 cars. So much fun in the snow!
@@josh8344 I am not driving the car as a daily, so I prefer the archaic solution by far. Torsens are more comfortable and need no engagement, but as you already said kind of a compromise. Depends on what you prefer, I guess.
I've counted 39 times that you've said "quattro". You guys create great informative videos that anyone can watch. You cover the history of brands and models all over the world in up to speed and also the more complex engineering in cars breaking it down to a very simple and comical format. I've learnt alot through your videos and I hope to see you posting in years to come. Thank you soo much to everyone at Donut media!!! From Brad in Jolly Old England 🇬🇧
Really happy you cover this! Being German and Audi Customer as well as having watched Gruppe B as a Kid together with my Dad (along with F1, DTM etc.) i have to admit, i didn't know what exactly the Differences between all these AWD Systems and always assumed they were all the same and i bet i'm not the only one! Prost & Cheers from the Berchtesgadener Land in the Bavarian Alps
All i knew was that the same word with a capital first letter does not always mean the same as the same word with a small first letter. This is fun to know. The more you know... 👍
@@alberteinstein1438 didnt you read. he modded the center diff. You can get 2 to 1 and 4 to 1 torsen center diff to counteract the understeer. Basically what audi did later, increasing rear power bias
You guys should do a top gear kind of series where you do a road trip with a category of cars. Some challenges and partying opportunities. Be fun to watch and tour around !
The AWD system on our two highlander Hybrids works great. It uses an electric motor mounted on the rear axle and will send power to the wheels when required, like when starting from a stop, heavy acceleration, loss of traction. The battery being over the rear axle also gives it better weight distribution.
I have a 2019 A5 Sportback, and I really like how you broke the 5 systems down. Great content and now I feel more educated about what I should expect out of my vehicle.
I have a feeling that, if I understood the system correctly, and audi do a brilliant job with settings, quattro ultra *may* be on course to being insanely good.
@@hokage_smoke what type of alternative fuels are you interested in? Corn based biofuel is overall worse for the environment than regular gasoline/petrol even tho ethanol burns cleaner at the tail pipe. In the US it's effectively a weird corn subsidy. Hydrogen fuel cells will likely have their uses but generating green hydrogen will always be less efficient than charging a battery directly from the grid (ie higher operating costs for fuel cells so needs to be an application where energy density is critical) Synthetic fuels have been researched for a long time - I can see F1 switching to it. To actually make it carbon neutral it will always be more expensive than just charging a battery from a grid. I could see collectors wanting this as an option but it wouldn't be as viable for a daily driver due to costs.
The EV stuff isn't really my jam but it is pretty interesting to hear about as it is the majority of the real cutting edge stuff out there now. That said, I know it isn't really donuts style, but it would be great to hear about the different EV companies on the market and how they got going, and what ones are up and coming. The reasoning is I think there are going to be some sleazy companies out there just hoping to seperate people from their money without ever really having a plan to produce a car, and at the same time some companies with great ideas struggling to get going. That EV truck company in bed with GM is the one that comes to mind for a scam company, but it would be good to inform people about the red flags because this is the thing that happens during these big shifts in science and production.
I counted 39 quattros in the video. I would like to thank yall for making learning about cars a fun experience for all ages and it not just being listening to someone talk for 3 hours as the build/just talk. It helps make everything easier,faster and better overall for everyone hell I started watching yall when I was 12/13 and still remember to this day some of the information I learned especially with the car I have now (2012 audi a5 premium)
Used to pull the front drive shaft out of my 96 Grand Cherokee Limited cause it had that stupid all time all wheel drive it would chew through gas when it was working. As a teen this wasnt great for me so pulling the front shaft out helped me save alot in the warmer months.
Having more EV explanations is going to be quite educational and fun as these systems are completely new and having a funny, reliable resource, especially at your size is going to help educate a lot of people and used to disspell rumours perpetuated by people just being flat-out ignorant because they don't like the idea of a quiet car. #quattrocount 39.
I've got a '18 A4 Allroad and I thought the car would feel very FWD with the Quattro Ultra but really does feel like an AWD on drifts and corners, rear kicks great and the launch is amazing as well.
I counted 38 quattro's. And Yes, please continue making B2B's on everything EV's! Hey, that kinda rhymes. Keep up the great work! You Guys are Awesome!!!
As someone who is working at a company which supplies eAxles, I would love to watch an episode about the EV platforms with eTrains or even about PHEV platforms. I know it is not as interesting as combustion cars, but their design is also interesting in their own way.
@@eriklarson9137 then you can ignore it, simple as that. There are many people out there who would love to learn more about automotive stuff than you do.
I like to hear about EV and think everyone crying about not wanting to hear about them could just ignore the videos about them, like I do with other videos Bout subjects I don't care for
You said "quattro" 39 times. Have you considered making an update episode on Lykan, now that it's getting a lot more attention on the social media, like videos of lykan whips driving and accelerating. P.S. I still haven't seen any video in which the claimed power of the cars have been unleashed :)
@@96ej that *is* rad. I want to do a tube chassis and put a carbon fiber body on it, my idea is if rocket bunny had a love child with a class B quattro
I’d like your take on tire size and wear with Quattro. Tire dealers always want to sell 4 tires, with the threat that you “may” ruin your differential if the tires aren’t matched. It seems from this discussion that the Quattro is smart enough to figure it out, especially since the diff is disengaged for 90% of the time.
You said Tor-Sen wrong 3 times. I recall reading that the ultra system saves about 6% at low speed city driving. 20% sounds too high. Good to see a video of these systems as many don't know. I prefer the old mechanical Torsen diff with a rear lsd added
I owned an A6 avant quattro. it was an '06 with permanent AWD. I never thought they made different systems later. terrible fuel economy like Jerry said but best winter car ever (safe and fun drifts)
Great episode! I feel like You left out the origen story of the FF system that gave rise to quattro. This supid long jensen interceptor with a "Ferguson Formula" central transfer case that was first invented by the tractor company. And it had abs. 60/40 f/r power distribution through a multi clutch pack. Pioneering. As long as a station wagon.
#quattrocount 39. Love and loathe that you made me watch it again to find that out. I'd be very very interested in more electric car stuff. Especially about that Quattro EV you mentioned first!
I want MORE ELECTRIC stuff. Its the future of auto, innovation is only getting better and more exciting. Would love to see breakdowns on its tech from your engineering background, in a video format similar to this and torque vectoring ep. much love to Donut from East Coast
its actual retro future the first electric car's came before gasoline engines. 1832 was the first ev and 1890 was the first one built in the US. so the tech is actually over 200 years old.
Great video 👍 As a video idea, you could move the brands tuning labels comparison e.g. Audi =ABT Mercedes=Amg... and where you get the best tuning for the least money. Kind regards from Switzerland 🇨🇭
I counted 39 times that you said quattro. I would love to see more content on electric cars and I don't see why people feel like they have to prove that gas is better.
you got em all on point and made me giggle and snicker =P. I absolutely LOVE drifting my 4M Q7 - especially last night because of the snow dump in my local
Many may not like EV's, but with all these insanely complicated and heavy systems to drive all wheels when necessary, it's frickin' fantastic to have one electric motor driving each wheel that can be controlled through a simple computer without the need for long drive shafts, clutches, differentials etc.
I can't believe you guys are still sleeping on the Acura sh-AWD system. smh. It literally has planetary gears in each axle to PUSH the outer wheel even faster than 100% of the other wheels, while cornering; the opposite of the 'brake vectoring' system. It's awesome.
That depends which system you're talking about. The sport-oriented SH-AWD that was in stuff like the RL, used a rear diff with a taller drive ratio than the front diff, so when the Haldex-like system engaged the rear axle, they were able to get more than the usual 50/50 max rear split of a typical Haldex setup (I forget if it was 70/30 or 60/40, but the slightly taller ratio resulted in the rear axle being "overdriven" compared to the front).
@@jsquared1013 Well, that's how the new VW's are, with the fixed overdriven gear ratio in the rear-- they just did a video on it not too long ago. But the SH-AWD systems have a planetary gear set-- so it can run at the normal 'matching gear ratio of the other wheels-- AND it can also shift into the "taller" gearing, as you're saying-- But it can do it independently: left and right/ and can do it on command; computer actuated. So it can shift from low to hi in the rear, and has the clutch pack on each side also, just like the quattro. So it chooses which wheel gets the power with the clutches, and then chooses which wheel can be over driven. But I think it's only based on cornering (it drives the outside rear wheel faster, to push the car on around the corner better-- rather than using the brake on the inside tire, like most systems)-- but I'm sure they could lock them both and overdrive the entire rear with some little software changes.
I’ve driven many, many Audi cars. I even worked at a dealer. My favorite Audis are from the ‘08-‘16 era when you could still get a lot of them available as a manual. Being an Audi/VAG enthusiast I get flack for this, but I actually prefer the quattro system in my ‘12 TT RS to some of the longitudinal set ups. I had a V8 S5 and found that the real world difference even in harsh driving conditions is negligible with Gen4, or newer, Haldex. The Haldex system can also be tuned and adjusted pretty easily on Gen4 and newer systems, if you’re into that.
Hey. Im planning to get an mk3/8S TTS in the near future, and was wondering whether you could tell me if programming a 'locked 50/50' haldex mode is viable? Obviously, you would not want to drive around with it like this everywhere for fuel economy reasons - but I was wondering if you know whether it puts significant stress on the haldex coupling? It seems strange to think that it may cause clutch wear or high temperatures because I am under the impression that the pump is always running. To then use that fluid pressure to keep the coupling locked would seem like less stress than constantly varying 100-51% power to the front - since there is varying amount of slip present inbetween that range - whereas if it was 'locked' then the clutch should never experience slip because the clamping force of the haldex pump should be preventing that, right? Or is the haldex not supposed to run perminantly liek this? How is your TT RS? Still enjoying it, i hope?!
@@mommaduck79 With 8S being Gen5 Haldex I think it’s pretty simple, I believe it can be flashed through the OBD-2 port like an ECU/TCU tune. Some tunes might even include it. There will be a small bit to fuel economy, but our cars are moderately efficient. Most I’ve heard have reported 0-2 MPG difference with it fully engaged. As far as wear I haven’t heard of anyone wearing through the Haldex clutch pack any faster; including people who track the car and commute. Though I’d be inclined to do a Haldex fluid change a bit more frequently, maybe every 15-20k miles instead of 30-40k, just to be safe. I believe unless you’re putting down an astounding amount of torque and drag racing/launching the car, the Haldex will have no additional wear to worry about. Both front and rear diffs are open and power will always be wasted to the path of least resistance anyways; I imagine that would happen before any slipping of the Haldex really happens regardless. The TT RS is going great. My favorite Audi I’ve ever owned. Can’t go wrong with a 2.5T and 6-speed manual 😁
@@alberteinstein1438 it’s not front-biased in the way you’re thinking, it’s part-time AWD and can choose to send 100-51% of power to the front axle, however once the Haldex system locks then power is evenly distributed. Using XDS, power can be diverted to whichever wheel the car wants to send it to (not in a perfect way, but it does vector torque where it wants it to be - whether that be front or rear).
@@alberteinstein1438 The '12 TT RS I mentioned does NOT have torque vectoring, it's Gen 4 Haldex. That being said it's still pretty good for a Haldex system.
Owned a TT Quattro for three years, it spent more time in the shop than at my home! Traded it for a Chevy Silverado crew cab 4×4. Now that's a 4 wheel drive!
#quattrocount I counted 29 quattros in the whole episode! I actually thought about the quad-engine all-wheel-drive system of the rivian r1t today, I would love an episode on ev- awd systems! That's probably the most exciting engineering aspect in evs!
not really, Ev's been around longer then combustion first ev was built in 1832. Till energy density issues are solved its just a gimmick. Tho can't solve the issue without putting more tech and money into it. So we are getting closer to it being able to replace combustion but probably still 50 years away from that unless we find a better energy storage solution/ creation method.
@@zakyrath EV's have had less R&D since cars were invented so there is more opportunity for people to do cool stuff with them now (that the first EV existed before the first ICE isn't relevant to today's industry). Energy density is fine as is for the vast majority of use cases. There already exist (in labs) a ton of improvements to battery density and charge speed - the challenge will be scaling those new technologies up to mass production. Instant torque is also super fun - and you don't need fossil fuel exports from countries led by a war criminal
@@coleeto2 I'd say they've had more R&D then ice since its just a electric motor using the same design principles used in all wheel vehicles. Its the batteries and computer control systems that are really making its strides toward an EV future. Ive seen some videos about those new batteries and can't wait till it trickles into the consumer electronic markets. Only having to charge your phone once a week sounds awesome. The instant torque reminds me of the old steam cars. Jay leno has a awesome video of one that makes 1000lbs. I mean we could of just made our own fossil fuel and sold and bought from our allies instead of shutting down our industry prematurely and having to support that asshole. Its tit for tat tho not like common sense is possible for a politician. Hopefully in the future we can wave at each in our overclocked ev's !
Given the torque splitting benefits torsen diffs provide, I always thought it would be sensible to use center and rear (heck maybe even front) torsen diffs in mid-sized trucks, as it would be superior to open diffs (or lsd's) and less complex than lockers, while meeting the modest off road needs that most mid-sized truck owners have. Those that need more could do lockers aftermarket, like all the Tacoma owners do anyhow. Torsen rears would be hugely beneficial on snow/ice vs open or limited slip for sure.
Except one crucial area where torsen differentials do not work, which would affect trucks: when one tire is in the air a torsen acts like an open differential. They are great for soft roading, but proper off-roading they are terrible.
@@gnashmelllow true, however given the fact that (per a survey of 250k truck owners by Strategic Vision in 2019) over 70% of respondents stated they never or rarely off road, my point that this should be the default option (vs open diffs which are the current default) as it is superior in normal, soft road, and winter conditions (and those that need more capability can factory option or aftermarket some lockers) holds true. The majority of trucks never lift a wheel, which is why ford, chevy, ram, etc don't have lockers or lsd's by default, and you need to option them (fx4, z71, etc package). Perhaps you are one of the 30% that needs or wants more capability than torsen or lsd's can provide, and that is awesome, glad you have such fun with yours, but saying that a superior (to open diffs and limited slips) system should not be used due to one very specific limitation that does not affect the majority of users is a bit unusual. Open diffs just should not be widely used in the modern world, limited slip or torsen make much more sense as a standard option, with lockers available beyond that. Engineering Explained did a great job of breaking down why on his channel a couple of years back.
I should also add that this specific limitation with a lifted wheel is easily overcome by lightly pressing the brake, which places load on the lifted wheel (and the others of course) a technique used with open diffs for decades as well but to lesser effect as they don't torque multiply. The torque multiplying of the torsen then provide 3 to 4 times the amount of torque generated by braking to the other wheel, overcoming the light braking. Additionally, modern trucks all have computer controlled braking of individual tires (the traction and stability control systems do it automatically) on detection of slip. So lift a wheel in a modern truck with a torsen, it automatically brakes the lifted wheel only and torsen does the rest.
@@jg8263 I misunderstood, I thought you mean in place of the optional clutch type LSD or E lockers. I agree open diffs on RWD is the dumbest thing, and should not be a thing. But manufacturers gonna keep having those pesky accountants prevent the engineers from making things the way the should be.
My god these systems are complicated! I'm sure they work wonders for what they're designed for, but I do not envy the mechanics who need to diagnose and fix them when they go bad. And I definitely don't envy the wallets of people who have to pay for those repairs lol
Bought a used Audi once, I will not do that mistake again for the exact reason you mention : maintenance nightmare! (which is true for all luxury european cars)
@Francois St-Pierre I couldn't agree more. There is a reason why you pick them up usef for cheaper than something like a Ford escape or even a Rav 4 which has next to zero options comparatively. Same year, mileage, everything. They don't hold value because they know they're reaching the end of usable life without dumping copious amounts of money into them.
This is exactly the reason why I prefer EV AWD :) All you need is 4 motors, geared down appropriately. Voilá, arbitrary handling unlocked with minimum weight and wear parts
@@frankthechemist had an 07 335 coupe and only had 1 major repair in about 80k km’s. Needed a new rad. Was about 500$ cdn. The 15 Audi s3 I’m driving now is still on warranty and I’ve had more major repairs that have been covered. I honestly preferred the bimmer but the Audis not bad if you got that warranty and a dealership that doesn’t really care about engine mods.
I personally like EV stuff. Especially now, as more affordable and newer systems come about I’m super interested to see how the aftermarket and tuning is gonna work for it.
Oh man, this is so freaking advanced and cool......aaaand will make these cars absolutely worthless when the manufacturers will stop supporting all of the software needed to diagnose and fix all of these systems/subsystems. Same for the mighty ev-s. We're approching the 'car as a service' future increeeedibly fast. We better get extra good at recycling old cars or we' ll absolutely drown in junk in the not so distant future...
am also interested. Sure, i'm a die-hard ICE fan, but EVs are awesome tech and it's clear that they play a large role in today's enthusiast car culture.
I always dig your take on topics and enjoy the dive into the engineering of the topic while still being accessible and fun. a fine line to walk and you do it masterfully! I Watched the video a complete second time to verify the 39 times you said Quattro...I see what you did there ;)
Dear Donut, I appreciate each and every one of your videos. Please do not stay silent about the war in Ukraine. I know that you're trying to be off-politics. But that is not about politics. It is about life itself. You can at least put a tiny 🇺🇦 flag somewhere in the corner of your videos. ;) With love from Ukraine Your fan and subscriber forever until I die and beyond!
i'm no mathmagician but I counted at least 7 Quattro's. Appreciate the content, Donut Team. I'm becoming more Not-So-Illiterate when it comes to understanding cars.
The ultimate “Quattro” would be a midsize model with a high power lightweight engine, manual box, 40/60 power split and torsen diffs front, center and rear. 🤤
Love the EV stuff, cars is cars and I don't want you guys to fade into history because you're attached to a die-hard boom-juice fan base. If it's got wheels, a seat and makes your heart rate go up, we should all want to know about it irrespective of how it's powered.
You said the w word 39 times my boy. My size is large and I would love the junk car shirt in white and red. I love you guys and your content! I’ve been watching since y’all first started and I’m really happy to see how much don’t has grown, keep it up fellas!
I also counted 39 too, I thought it was 38 This video was great. I got to learn about audi, their 4 wheel drive system and how great it sounds tho it honestly sounds kinda complex and expensive to fix, if it engaging and disconnecting a lot. But it still sounds so awesome! Thanks for teaching us something cool, MO POWA to my knowledge.
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The torsion system in my S5 with the sport diff sure is a lot of fun in the snow with dedicated snow tires. Hold the stability control button until all German nannies are completely off (yes, S models let you do this) and drift your heart out.
Haldex systems realistically have 1 main advantage over 2wd. Not getting stuck. I've owned a few brands and driven many more in snowy Utah. They don't kick on predictably in a corner. Meaning they are either too late in a slide, or upset the balance and make things worse. Also, I'm guessing the ultra system can't accommodate a limited slip differential. So that sucks too
from an enthusiast perspective, think i prefer the BMW xDrive wherein you get RWD always, AWD somtimes. AWD when you need, and still able to drift or get that fun oversteer. Unlike FWD always/AWD sometimes. Also, no clutch pack on the rear means you dont have the Focus RS problem of only being able to drift for a short amount of time before overheating.
YOU should ABSOLUTELY do an episode on Audi (and errrrrrbody elses for that matter) electronic AWD and electric torque vectoring systems. It REALLY IS INTERESTING even if youre in the "ENGINES MUST CONTAIN EXPLOSIONS OR IT DOESNT COUNT" crowd, Lol. Im especially curious about how competing companies have all essentially got "to the same place", Id love to see the differences explained, the way you do, in systems that to the outside, all seem to accomplish the exact same thing. Anyone not interested or curious is gonna end up WAY BEHIND the rest of the class. Our industry is going electric, we SHOULD ALL get used to it. I remember when I worked for Toyota/Lexus when the Prius was new and the first the GS and RX started coming as hybrids. All the old heads were VEHEMENTLY against going to the school and learning the ins and outs. UNTIL THEY EVENTUALLY HAD TO STARTS GIVING US YOUNGER GUYS THEIR TICKETS AND HOURS CAUAE THEYRE COULDNT AND WERE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK ON THE HYBRID AND ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS.... Jusssssssayin lolol
I've always known Quattro was the Italian for 4, coming from the Spanish quatro, also meaning 4. As a result, I've always thought of Aldi Quattro to be like a generic term to mean any of Aldi's AWD systems. I've always known that "real Quattro" is full AWD as opposed to the "fake quattro" being 2WD except when the ECU/sensors etc determine AWD is needed.
My Haldex TT handles quite okay for me. I drive my car all year 'round, so that includes 4 months of snow and ice. And I'm the only one at the company parking lot with a tiny sports coupé during winter. As a matter of fact, most people don't even understand how I can drive that kind of car during winter. But when the light turns green at a snowed-up intersection, I'm still the one leaving everyone behind because of the traction and the light weight. So I'm still not sure why people like to hate on the Haldex Quattro, but maybe they should drive one before passing judgment based on how much elitist car journalists hate it. For most people, that system is great.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers Must be, because I can't fault mine. Then again, I don't pretend to be a racing driver. I just like a fun car that I can use all year round...
I've been watching Donut Media content unsubscribed, this is the video that got me fully on board and hungry for more content, this was a special one to me👍🏼
I got 39 times. I like EV stuff! My nephew and niece run battery powered JR dragsters. One of them is powered by a bunch of cordless drill battery packs.
