As an engineer this discussion at granular level on bleeding edge battery work just so interesting thanks Munro and Associates and Zeta Energy these deep dive specifics are genius insights.
It's a nice science experiment, but it's always hard to believe that CVT can get the throughput for something that needs to be as cheap as battery electrodes. That said, they are dealing with quite short CNTs, so 30 seconds isn't terrible, and if they go to even smaller coating thicknesses (lower energy density, higher power)... maybe? :) The other issue I'd *really* want to know more is their cathode chemistry. As a general rule, all the methods I've seen to alter the cathode chemistry to prevent the polysulfide shuttle problem dramatically reduce the energy density.
@No Nonsense Bennett only 5% of asbestos was crystalline (cannot be easily expelled from body by cilia&mucus) - the majority was 95% amorphous and easily removed. The hysteria over asbestos was initially ginned-up by the Trial Liars and their well-paid so-called expert witnesses from the lower echelons of their graduating class. As always, once the hysteria gets going, it's impossible to stop. Analogous to bank runs on o/w solvent banks, planetary global warming hysteria even though we know other planets in solar system also warming, shipyard workers getting lung cancer while insulating hulls and smoking 2 packs/day, EMF cancer claims when HV Line workers have no increased cancer rate than genpop, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
I just love these informed conversations around the table. Especially as I've got to the point in the last year or so where at least 90% of the info is staying in my brain, and the understanding isn't so temporary any more. So, for me, this was a truly great episode. Can't wait for the next one. And by the way, they can be as long as you like.
Very impressed with your work Sandy. it’s great that you continue to contribute to the world of engineering even though you could probably afford to retire. you obviously are well respected in the community. Thank you.
I'm not convinced they have eliminated the dendrite issue. Looking forward to hearing more about this company. Thank you Munro live for putting this together.
@@w8stral Their explanation about swelling resistance seems credible given the CNT forest-swelling should fill in the gaps not “out”. The cathode sulphur migration mitigation seems credible. But dendrites ... they suggest it’s not a problem but will need to show in details why.
@@Georgewilliamherbert No, they did not say dendrites are not a problem just that their design severely hinders dendrite formation rate. True, they did not use the word rate, but that is the simple truth for any dissimilar material.
re: "I'm not convinced they have eliminated the dendrite issue." exactly those who are astute/paying attention will recognize how they are not the first to claim to have resolved this issue. in fact those in the chat who aren't "baby young to the world" will recall how we heard all this same HYPE and CONJECTURE in regards to Super Conductivity back 30+ years ago (ref: circa 1992) yeah "Pepperidge Farm Remembers". now I know it's hard to believe but the 4 men speaking in video are not REMOTELY the only people with decades of Engineering experience across a variety of sectors. no, for example the Auto Industry alone employs over 10 Million people annually, so that roughly leaves another 99,999,996 talented and experienced people you haven't heard from. in fact I just flew back from Salt Lake City having spent a week with 24 others including myself.
Incredibly interesting discussion! And I'm a food marketing executive with no engineering or technical background. Munro Live is one of my top three go-to RU-vid channels PERIOD, regardless of content.
Actually, that should be “… other than charging and the total inability of our grid to supply the required energy” (Maybe that’s what you meant by “charging” though.)
@@DEtchells ... and the complete inability of our current infrastructure to provide the dozen-or-so supply constrained raw materials at the rates needed (10× or more) to convert an appreciable percentage of the global automotive industry to EV's. Not to mention the massive recycling facilities that would have to be constructed as well. ☹
@@briandbeaudin9166 Yeah, all that too. It's an even bigger issue than the grid, but either is a showstopper on its own. It's just incomprehensible to me that the "green" forces are shutting down reliable energy production at the same time they're investing billions (many hundreds of them, probably trillions globally) in trying to force an impossible changeover to solar and wind. (And it's clearly not about saving the environment, as any rational person who cared about CO2 would realize that third/fourth-generation nuclear is literally the only non-CO2-emitting way to provide stable baseline generating capacity.) Our energy policies, hundreds of billions dollars of expenditures and the resulting impacts on global health and peace are literally and entirely based on fantasies 😖
evs are not even possible even with new batteries you people are so blind we need 10x more copper, 10x more silver 100x more quartz for it to be even maybe feasible and it isnt and we just lost 40% of the worlds material in Russia and Ukraine for the Jews but even that statement will come off as hate to you, because you have no idea what is going on in the world or what reality is. Of course maybe I am deluded as well but I think I know the truth. Can one ever really know
What’s interesting is that they have really failed to implement the gains of that technology i.e. battery day. They have only really implemented a couple of the bunch of innovations i.e. 4680 form factor, tab-less and battery frame. They are struggling to scale the dry coating tech which is key to reducing complexity, cost and waste and I think there was 1 or 2 other things they have yet to deliver on. Hopefully they will get there, but I think they are some time off by the fact they are asking for suppliers for generic 4680 cells.
@@marknevar8234 indeed I did. Thanks. Still skeptical, why order 4680 from other suppliers if after 2yrs investment in scaling up they don't have the capacity yet?
@@Gareebaa84 About the only thing they had failed to deliver on was price, and now prices are coming down as well. The big miss from battery day seems to be the $25k car... now theyd rather sell a $25k robot to take peoples jobs.
@@patreekotime4578 I think you agree price was intentional. There's no reason to reduce price given the demand. U saw them experiment with that price lever recently and now they are sold out again
Reassuring to see a bit behind the scenes regarding battery technology development. Thank you for bringing this complex topic down to earth. Your guests were superb communicators given the obvious knowledge they possess.
The team from Zeta is incredibly sharp. Too polished for me to trust fully. But they had an answer for EVERYTHING. Impressive whether they're truthful or not. Time will tell.
Love the continuing attempts to make much better batteries, but we’ve seen so many not pan out that proof is needed in order to believe any claims. Good luck to them and us!
@@MunroLive tell these guys to show up with a working cell. If they don’t, which I have yet to see them show a single working cell, tell them to get lost.
@banme2784 I am with you on this, there's a lot of pipe dream here and everywhere. Before Munro starts interviewing companies and "Flannegans pipe dreams" Thay need to bring a batch of batteries say a 100 so that Munro can test them. Then sit down in have that interview and talk about the batteries. All of this may be a pipe dream.
Boy oh boy with all your experience and contacts made over all the years you've been in this industry Sandy, you've really gotten yourself to the top of the cutting edge of today's technology. It's AMAZING how far some of the people you know have come with cells and chemistry, I really can't wait to see these guys get it out there and become the next default for cell production. Great work to all involved. It's hard, long hours, time consuming, but the payoff for society as a whole is incalculable. Fantastic and thanks for the little education on the dendrites and how nasty those little buggers are. I have a pack that won't charge, opened it up and the 3 18650 very high mAh but low amp batteries just will not hold a charge. I'm not opening them up, it's not that big of a deal, but I'm going to be I have dendritic loss here. Thanks again!
@@MunroLive these guys kinda seem like bs between the cnt in mass production and the lack of an actual dischargable cell to show you. This was a weird paid ad
This is great to get a primer on this new technology. I'm hoping it can come to the automotive market sooner than 2028. I'd love to see my Rivian have the same range as my diesel Cayenne. Thanks Munroe for putting this together to help educate the masses. Another--Well Done!
I want to believe... Just as I have wanted to believe the last dozen or so revolutionary battery technologies over the past couple of decades. Somehow it seems like there is always a bottomless chasm somewhere between the promise and actual production that these technologies inevitably plunge into.
I have seen so many "battery breakthrough" videos in the last few years. Forgive my pessimism but I'll believe it when I can go and buy it off the shelf.
@@MunroLive huge difference between china and japan dipshits, japan wasnt our enemy after ww2...china is our current mother fucking enemy just like japan used to be pre ww2 you stupid fuck, plus tesla's charging network sucks i live in one of the most heavily populated area's of virginia and there is only one charging station in the entire city and it's @ the fucking mall lol what a joke electric vehicles are a fucking joke plus junkies cutting copper cable on charging stations and trading it in for cash for drugs you can run without catalytic converter by the way if junkie snatches that it doesnt make the vehicle inoperable unlike cutting copper cable from your power wheels charger they are heavier and wear tires faster shittier for offroad because high centered less open spots under the vehicle for rock or something to go in they wear down our roads more and we can hardly keep them maintained now muchless millions and millions of ev's the power grid cant handle millions and millions of ev's plugged in either they cant tow for shit they lose range just sitting in heat or cold unlike gasoline, charging times are dogshit they're a major fire hazzard you cant just fill them up with a can of electricity whats cheaper gas can/grabbing acouple gallons or thousand dollar portable battery pack that would take 60 hours to give it 2 % juice lol if you run out. they will be monetized pieces of shit the whole things terrible besides electric vehicles are out of date technology compared to ice vehicles, 1832 vs 1886, the design of electric vehicles trash also they are adding way too many things that are going to fail on them even somerthing as simple as charging port door or door handles its all one laughable joke besides all the stuff used to make batteries are finite resources just like gasoline and even more destructive to habitats. Besides they're a bitch to even tow the fuckers if you break down lol FUCK YOUR GODDAMN POWER WHEELS SOUND ABOUT RIGHT?
13:34 that equipment is so jank! I love it! (I'm a business owner in a niche field, a lot of the machines I use are ones I have had to design and build myself, they look very similar lol!)
I've seen several promissing presentations on Li-S architectures...all of them very exciting. Lyton is another Li-S cell start-up with an optimistic outlook. This is quite exciting...if the Li-S cell can deliver, the EV future is not only guaranteed, but will dramatically accelerate.
Sandy, people thought that Tesla bought Maxwell for it's supercapasitors but the real gold was the dry cell technology. I have installed very many Maxwell ultracapacitors over the years.
Funny, sounded like some nonsense without real data. They didn't even bring one along to show off. Many specs not mentioned. Its early days but surely if they are testing for thousands of Cycles and have some laying around on cupboards . Then they have time to make a few to give for independent verification and demo purposes. But ueah still pretty good in general
Thoroughly enjoyable presentation and discussion! Not sure what stage this is in but if there are sales pitches going on, a huge leap would be to say "did you see that Leaf/Model 3/etc. we drove in on? We swapped the battery with our own technology and all of our team has them in their cars. So far we've driven hundreds of thousands of miles on them. This phone I have in my hand? I swapped it with our battery technology. I can get 5 days worth of life from this phone before recharging and we can drive 500 miles on a single charge. Oh, and charging the phone and car are only 30 minutes each. Here's an example of different form factors of the battery. Now here's the details on how we make it cost effective, safe, and reliable"
They go on about the tabless design as if it was an Ultra Capacitor breakthrough but the truth is HF film capacitors have had similar construction with sprayed metal end terminations for many many years. It effectively parallels all the windings to lower inductance hence achieving better HF and and pulse current performance.
Love this new stuff talk, keep it up. Someday a breakthru battery will be here but the road to hell is littered with "the next big thing" battery ... hope this one gets there.
Looking at the chart at 9:26, it appears that the Zeta cell is about half the volumetric density of the Tesla 4680 cell and about the same gravimetric density. So that means a battery twice the size of the present Tesla battery and the same weight to get the same amount of energy storage. So what's the advantage? Using cheaper material input costs? Ok, but we don't use the input materials without additional processing, like the CVD process to grow the carbon nanotubes. So what are the comparative costs of building the anode rolls and cathode rolls for the new Zeta process compared to the present Tesla dry anode / wet cathodes? Finally, there's also the cell performance over thousands of charge / discharge cycles. Is this equivalent or better than the present chemistries? While there are encouraging early results of the Zeta chemical processing to build the cells, they still have a lot of development to do to exceed present day capabilities. And you should remember that present cell chemistries are not standing still but are improving as time goes by.
I think you're looking at the prototypes tested last year -- the cells being developed now are expected to have 450 Wh/Kg (almost twice Tesla's density) at
@@melissaschilling1138 The 2022 cells have about the same gravimetric density (specific energy) as Tesla 250-300 Wh/kg per the chart. It is the volumetric energy density where they seem to have a disadvantage at 450 Wh/L vs. 750 Wh/L for Tesla 4680, according to the chart at 9:30. I agree that Li-S is a much more promising chemistry if it can be commercialized. It would be interesting to see cycle life and calendar life data for the Zeta cells.
@@georgepelton5645 And lithium sulfur should have a significant cost advantage and supply chain resiliency advantage given that it does not use nickel, manganese or cobalt.
My takeaway from this conversation is one major key point. These gentlemen stated that we want our product to stand on its own merits. You can explain in detail how great your product is. Many sales folks make long-winded pitches with charts and graphs geared towards convincing you to have faith in their product. In the end, the only real indication of quality and trust is the product itself. One other thing with all of these new battery technology game changers is generally they are barely worth looking at. They are vague about what the new is. How will it advance battery technology in the now? Is it real or setting in a lab results-oriented speculative? Will it take trillions of dollars and 100 years before it actually exists? We have all been misled by click bate videos bragging or promising the latest and greatest game-changing battery technology. 🔋
Thank you. I'd love to see a comparison to existing EV battery chemistries and examples, on that chart showing LFP, Tesla, and ideas. Add Tesla's cheapest type, Nissan leaf, and some others.
What about temperature performance? I assume they hinted at that topic with the euphemism of “automotive application “. That is what they plan to solve, or “fine tune”, by 2027 at the earliest. So they have cycle life, safety, energy density, and cost, but not at -/+50C
I just saw your comment. I posted essentially the same question. Zeta said they had mitigated the gassing issue. In prior Li - S, the gassing was elevated levels of ethane and methane due to electrolyte decomposition. Elevated temperature is 30 ~deg. C, so really not that elevated. Capacity loss is related to the gassing, so maybe Zeta has also effectively improved the working temperature range. I guess we’ll see in about four years (2027).
@@wtmayhew Being able to charge at 10C rate without any gassing expansion sounds like temperature isn't rising much, doesn't it ? That would cover part of the temperature management issue -- cooling while fast charging. Did they mention operating temperature range for charging and discharging ? Being able to charge and discharge with ambient from -20c to +50c ? Being able to eliminate the need for temperature control on a pack would be a huge cost savings.
@@kirkellis4329 Thank you for the reply. It seems like we’ll have to wait (or at lest I will have to wait, given my limited chemistry expertise) to see if Zeta really delivers. If/when Zeta gets their cells to market, they’ll have solved several thorny problems which have annoyed others with Li - S cells. Indeed a 10C charge rate would be applied repeatedly without serious deterioration would be quite an accomplishment.
@@wtmayhew I didn’t know about the gassing issue. My question pertains to the car being parked, charging , driving in Arizona during the summer or Norway in the winter.
@@steffenfrost I pretty much have the same question. Zeta made the pitch, suggesting their technology is appropriate for a cylindrical container. Going to Zeta’s web site isn’t very helpful in explaining how Zeta is addressing the known technological problems. That is understandable, given the need to keep some things proprietary. I am given a little pause because the News section of Zeta’s site is mostly about who’s been promoted to what position rather than about field deployments and trials of their technology. For now, we have to sit back and see what’s next.
this was fascinating, but as far as electric cars are concerned, there are performance specifications that matter. The discussion did mention vibration resistance and volume per kWh storage, but not weight or internal resistance of the batteries or temperature sensitivity. Without meeting those requirements also, you have a product that won't work in cars but may be useful in other applications.
Temperature sensitivity of Li - S cells has been the bane of Li - S technology prior to Zeta’s. I ran across an ECS paper from April 2022 which studied 19 AH pouch type Li - S cells which documented almost 3.3 times charge cycle capacity fade at 30 degrees C versus 10 degrees C. Zeta stated in the video that they address the gassing issue which is apparently related to elevated temperature capacity fade. Perhaps working temperature range has benefited as well? It would be interesting to hear more, as it is certainly relevant to automotive applications.
I tried to post a link to the paper I cited, but it was auto-removed. Search for “Investigation of the Effect of Temperature on Lithium-Sulfur Cell Cycle Life Performance Using System Identification and X-Ray Tomograph”
28:00 but big cell give you another big benefit: you can balance every chemical-unit, not a module of small cylindrivals. Also you have less conectors, easier packaging, simpler assembly, easier servicing and so on.
1. Sandy, you’ve really done a great job of evolving into your new role as a RU-vid host. 2. Any offers from Elon yet for this tech, or is it too early for that😉
They hope for automotive grade in 27-28. That’s 5 years and it’s a hope. I would think too early for Tesla to consider seriously. Maxwell said it’s a ready tech and it took them what, 2 years to manufacture it?
From a risk management perspective this sound VERY impressive! Great health, safety, property and, liable characterizations! I'd love to see the data sheets on this compared to current competitions schematics! Its VERY refreshing seeing clearly intelligent, experienced, insightful and tenured talent work with highly forward thinking philosophies and strategies in mind! The value of experience knowledge demonstrated with wisdom! The spec's sound most competitive, however, the Achilles heel of the current industry leader designs seem to be the diverse temperature tolerances and performance burdens, "especially COLD weather", environment effects on such similar energy storage engineering! Everyone complains about how "bad" electric models function in snow, freezing, ice, very cold and, the inverse areas that are very HOT, dry, micro dust hazard(dessert) extreme weather geographic areas! The combined exposures a true dred! If, this technology could address these current complaints, or a significant part of, the value of the engineering would be monumental! Just my opinion. I truly enjoyed this production! Sounds like a winner! I'll be watching...
"If you want to make something dirt cheap? Make it out of something that is as common as dirt, and preferably locally sourced dirt." - Dr Donald Sadoway.
@@joenavarro2973 Sodium batteries are on the way too. Again a lot cheaper and capable of being manufactured on existing lines, with excellent cold weather performance.
@@davefroman4700 absolutely agree 👍💯. cost is everything. Sodium ion batteries are the future, CATL start's producing them in the third quarter of this year.
Thank you for this awesome video. I like the nanotubes and the speed they are being made. Minimal shrinking and swelling and holding the charge for extra long time with minimal loss.... OMG... Sounds too good to be true. I really hoped this was ready go for industrial scale production now. It's time to talk to Elon to speed up this pretty interesting new development. Go Zeta GO!
Around 16:30. It was only 5 or 7 years ago that copper nanotubes were experimental. Engineers and other scientists still were figuring it out. And, here is Zeta energy doing it in a small factory? workshop? And, rapidly and consistently. Sandy, I can see why you brought them on your show.
Hi Sandy, An ultracapacitor (Maxwell-style) is designed to give out all its stored energy in ~15 second. in that sense, it's a "240C" device --> 240 * 15 second = 1 hour In that sense, it is like a fireworks rocket. --> Huge power. 15 second. Finished. A similarly sized 18650 stores 100x as much *energy* but is able to give it out rather slowly in comparison - Le's say like a propane torch. 15 minutes till empty. Aka "4C", but more energy than the rocket. This is why all quadcopters/drones have a "run-time" of ~15 min i.e. 4C (and not any shorter). A "regular" (electrolytic) capacitor is okay to be pulled empty in ~ 10ms ("360000C") - like a firecracker. --> 10ms. Finished. Tremendous power. (although lot less *energy* than the rocket) A ceramic capacitor may be run even faster, i.e. even more power, but the stored energy is minuscule. Ehh... I guess Tom already explained all this to you :)
I always just say a camera flash is powered by a capacitor and a flashlight is powered by a battery. One gives you a burst as bright as the sun for a fraction of a second, the other gives you a dim light rated in hours.
The cut away Ultracapacitor I showed in the video is capable to be charged in about 1second. So the C numbers are even higher. Larger cells will take 2s. I used to state that an Ultracapacitor does have 1800C - nice theoretical numbers, but not practical
@@michaelliedtke4738 Honoured to hear from one of the original folks at Maxwell! I was at a "tradeshow" booth of Maxwell in NL around ~2007 +/- 2y - Talking to the rep there, I arrived at the 15s number from a back-of-the-envelope calc.. Apparently their information was conservative. 2s to full-discharge is amazing. I have later worked with an Australian company called CapXx (now bought out by MuRata) - are you familiar with these? They have lower C-rating than Maxwell's but also have low ESR and very low self-discharge. I look forward to your new company's energy-storage breakthroughs!
I thought Tom was about to say he started in automotive in the middle ages. Who would have thought a bunch of engineers having a geek out session would create so much interest. Thanks folks.
The wrap up speaks to the reality that so many people who talk about "new battery discoveries" fail to understand: The time and effort that it takes to develop new battery technology is far more than just having a better chemistry. It is being able to create a better chemistry and structure that utilizes cheaper materials and operations, plus years of testing and validation at every level, and then finding out if the process can be done at scale. All while trying to keep investment flowing to recruit and retain talent in a business that may not be profitable for decades, while hoping you can get your product to market before being left behind and/or going bust. This is not work for the faint of heart.
Extremely interesting stuff and when I heard a 10c charge rate my ears really picked up. I however heard no mention of safe discharge rates? Again extremely interesting and I'm going to be doing a deeper dive on this company and their tech. Thank you gentlemen for the presentation and I look forward to learning more...
They panned LFP a bit at the end with the weight penalty issue. What wasn't discussed is LFP's ability to fully discharge/recharge for thousands of cycles. So while it is heavier, you are able to fully utilize the battery. Other batteries cannot be fully discharged without degredation (mostly negating their weight advantage). If this sulfur battery can also fully discharge/recharge and be lighter, this technology looks like it really has a chance.
