The Dip is a lead removal method that uses equal parts Vinegar and Hydrogen Peroxide. It is very effective but leaves behind nasty Lead Acetate. We can use Zinc metal to turn that lead acetate into lead metal again.
Check out this follow up video from The VSO Gun Channel. He knows a lot more about chemistry and gives an easier solution. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MaOBNJvRx0o.html
Hey Johnny, if you want to speed up the reaction you can use zinc powder instead of a large piece of zinc. The increased surface area of the powder will help a lot.
Nilered did that in the 2nd video, so I considered it. I was holding out hope that maybe we could grow some cool looking crystals, and we did a little bit. Like you say, I'm sure all that surface area would help a lot.
This seems like the sort of video I will soon delete in shame. Also: I bought a Creality Ender 3 S1. We can talk about it on the stream tomorrow night, but it will be a few weeks before I get a video put together. It's still in the box because I've been staring at lead all week.
No worries, interesting stuff. Need to see if you can cast a bullet from what you collect :). I’ve got a supressor on order so this will be in the back of my mind for future consideration. Maybe some stronger acids could move the process along faster?
I vote for leaving the video up, I don't see any problem with it. Also, I may be wrong, but I think the white precipitate may have been lead that fell out of solution because you're solution reached its saturation point. Keep up the good work Sir.
FYI kinda related to this but more relevant to your annealing, "reese on the range" is a metallurgist on yt and he has a very good explanation of the science of annealing on his channel. Thought you may be able to consult him on other metallurgy questions too and it looks like he watches your channel as well. Just thought I'd let you know Sir.
Because of you I bought an Ender 5 Pro and the Lee APP. I got a couple 3D projects in mind. And I just can’t get over the speed of the Lee once you got it set up. Quick question - what size tubes do you buy that fits the collator?
Fellow student of RU-vid Chemistry University here, I think what happened is due to what's called the "Reactivity Series of Metals", basically some metals are more reactive, and others less so. You can use this to swap one metal for another in a solution, and since Iron (in the brush handle & bristles) is more reactive than Lead, it was not only dissolving due to the solution, but whatever lead had dissolved into the solution was immedately being replaced by iron from the handle. Zinc is more reactive than iron, so when you put the zinc coil in that nasty solution, both the iron and the lead were precipitating out which is why you got a different looking precpitate. This is used in Gold refnining because Gold is the least reactive metal. A process called "inquartation" can be used whereby carat gold (i.e., gold that is not pure) is alloyed with sterling silver to make it easier to dissolve out the silver and base metals. The pure metallic gold is left behind, and then the solution that is full of silver, copper, etc can be refined using the reactivity series to remove just the silver by putting in pieces of copper.
Alright he summed up my comment way better than I wrote it haha. Any experience with iron sulfate to precipitate gold in solution? I think I accidentally screwed up with adding more hydrochloric acid and peroxide over and over and eventually got the gold in solution (over a week or 2, no heat). Can’t find any sodium metabisulfate locally but did locate copperas (iron sulfate).
This was cool. I might duplicate from the perspective of a classically trained chemist. Also, that copper solution at the end is either copper acetate or copper hydroxide. Maybe both. I’m guessing acetate because of the excess vinegar in the original peracetic acid mix. To test this take a small sample (maybe 100ml or so) and get some clear, strong liquor like everclear or 151 and dilute it. If precipitates you have copper acetate. If it doesn’t then you have the hydroxide. This will determine how you go about cleaning up the copper
That would be really awesome. Correct it, refine it, explain it, expand it, refute it...I'd be happy to hear anything from someone that understands what's going on.
Easier: freeze distill metal acetates, the 90% of the acetates will form a crust on the surface and also suspend as particles, I just did this for copper acetate. Then filter for pure metal acetates.
@@notamouse5630 I hate freeze distillation, makes a mess. I’m a classical wet chemist- contain everything in a liquid system and kick species out chemically.
@@VSO_Gun_Channel Depends upon whether the container is glass, Also there is the option of freeze distillation, scraping the crust, crushing and centrifuging the slush, and taking the concentrate for round 2 of freeze distillation. All without glassware, which was my reason. I am a classic kitchen chemist reusing polymer ice cream cointainers. This freeze distillation makes both a crystalline product and a concentrate.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench Aluminum powder is relatively cheap (Alpha Chemical sells 2lb for $26) and IIRC is a stronger reducing agent than Zinc, plus the powder will react faster. Would recommend trying it.
I'm not a gun guy at all. I don't know how common any of this is, but I think it's really cool that you've potentially made this process safer. Bioavailable lead being dumped into the environment is serious & if more people start doing this that's awesome. Also really fun chemistry.
I watch a lot of RU-vid and and I always enjoy logging in to see a post from “Johnny”. Keep up the good work and don’t leave RU-vid. We love watching this stuff even if it isn’t what we do in our free time. This was an interesting video for me because of my chem background in college recently.
"You're a frickin hill-jack, trying to do something with chemistry..."! Love it! Chemistry for the common man! Definitely interesting and equally entertaining. Do it again
Wow this is interesting. I sent my SpecWar back to silencerco a couple of years ago. It sucks waiting for it to come back but they did a great job and updated the locking ring thingy at no charge. Still your chemistry is awesome. Thanks for another great video.
As a chemist I love that experiment! That's why we do research so it can be tested for actual usecases! Nice job! (And don't worry it failed. This is what engineers do. They test what should work as a usecase and then often spend years ironing the kinks out)
There is a bunch that i never knew...particularly the lead acetate hazard - Thanks! I've been looking at a couple of suppressors that state they are "maintenance free" but looking at what you got out of yours makes me second guess those claims.
I appreciate the your info even and especially if you feel like a "noob". There are so many things in life that would be so much safer and easier just because others share their experience. Thank you.
Seriously interesting experiments Sir - and don't be discouraged if things go awry. That's what experimentation is all about. I laughed heartily at your term "Chinesium" ... that's a new element that I'll be quoting often!
I had no idea about any of this kind of thing. Seems if it weren't so hard to send suppressors everywhere you could have a reasonably priced cleaning service just so you didn't have to deal with that kind of crap.
If you have a suppressor with some build up in it just get some Boretech C4. Just plug the bore with a silicone plug and fill it up. It gave me excellent results. Now Boretech has a suppressor specific cleaning kit as well.
I'm glad all my moderators are strippable so i don't have to deal with this all i have to do is open it up, use something to clean like boretech eliminator and brush away.
Not a video that I would normally watch, but you are just so dang entertaining and I appreciate your willingness to "experiment" for our benefit. When will you start suppressor cleaning business?
Dude, seriously impressed with your experiment. Would like to see more like that concerning firearms. Where would you dispose of the liquid in the container or who would you call to find out? Thank you for the information 🔫👍🏻
I think that line might be the separation line of zinc acetate and lead acetate since they have different weights. Lead has more molecular weight so it would gravitate below the zinc acetate. That could explain why the reaction slowed way down once that line went below the zinc - it's harder for the lead acetate to get close to zinc metal since it is surrounded by zinc acetate. Suggesting a stir bar to keep the solution made of the acetates mixed or keep the zinc metal close to the bottom.
Alright the blue color of the last dip is copper. Once the copper goes in solution it will cement out on iron (why it plated on the can). The iron replaced it the exact same way the zinc does the lead. So to get it out of solution you can literally throw any scrap iron in and it’ll drop out. I’d avoid stainless as it will add other stuff like chromium, vanadium, etc. which may be more toxic than the copper. Plain old low grade steel is your best bet. You can also use electrolysis (which would put you on the road to plating lead projectiles for instance..). I know sodium metabisulfate and iron sulfate are 2 used to drop gold and other precious metals, not sure if they’d do copper but might be worth looking into. Oh and diluting the solution with water will make the lead and silver oxide drop out of solution.
That Hybrid.46 looks like it’s seen better days. I’ve had one for years and have never even once cleaned mine. In fact, the directions say do not clean! I should a few rounds of super high power .375 rounds through mine to blow out stuff.
I've had great success with DUB Aluminum wheel cleaner. I have a Griffin Armament Sportsman that is all aluminum. It gained some weight and the DUB cleaner did a great job loosening and dissolving the crud. It didn't harm the finish or base metal either. I have used "the dip" before with Rimfire cans. You can increase it's aggressiveness by using it in an ultrasonic cleaner. I don't use it in the ultrasonic tank. I put my baffles (Stainless only) in a spaghetti sauce jar. Add dip solution until the baffles are covered then place the jar in the ultrasonic tank. Add plain water to the tank and run as you normally would. The dip solution can be neutralized with table salt when you are finished with it. Or save the solution and drop off at your local Hazmat days.
Don't know about Dub but be very careful with aluminum wheel cleaners in general. Several of them contain hydrofluoric acid which is super nasty stuff. It burns your skin like other acids except that it penetrates the skin surface and doesn't wash off with water.
I did the dip on some individual baffles of my first 9mm can that I had been running 22 through. I knew the hazards. While it was the most effective and efficient way to deal with lead build up, I decided not to do it again. Now I just scrape off lead by hand with a pick maybe once a year. Sealed cans I don't even mess with.
A way to prevent hot spots in your UT cleaner is to put the suppressor in the cleaner in a jar, and put the jar in the tank and fill the space around the jar with water.
I actually used CLR last week. Cleaned my Omega, but it took forever. But it is clean now. Also F-Class shooters are using CLR for cleaning carbon fouling in Stainless barrels.
In Texas, my town has hazmat collection days from time to time. I can drive up to a parking lot and the state will dispose of hazardous chemicals for me (residential quantities only). I have never tried to do lead acetate, but it might be worth a few calls to Tennessee officials.
@@homersaypian3798 almost every large-ish municipality will have a residential hazardous waste disposal site. I would try looking for your town + residential hazardous waste disposal. Sometimes it's a city-run location and sometime the local fire department will handle it.
Hey Johnny, not sure if anyone has said it but I believe if you used a "bubbler" not sure the scientific name but the stopper on alcohol fermenting containers. This way only thing venting off would be the hydrogen and you wouldn't have to worry as much of spillover since the hole would be smaller. Great video. Hopefully going to start reloading after I buy my house and get out of my appartment
I soak my suppressors in BoreTech Eliminator every one thousand or so rounds. It keeps them maintained and I don’t gain any weight. I soak for one hour, rinse with water then rinse withBallistol and water mix of 90 percent water and ten percent Ballistol. I have never had any issue whatsoever but.. my finish is long gone, it’s been cooked, painted over and re painted over five times.
1. REGULAR MAINTENANCE is key to suppressors especially .22 rimfire! 2. Clean a take down suppressor (I don't like sealed units) as often as you clean the weapon (doesn't allow build up of lead or carbon). 3. Use brass brush for steel parts and nylon for aluminum. 4. Apply a light coat of CLP, white Lithium grease or petroleum jelly to internal parts (makes cleaning much easier). 5. Don't be a pig with your equipment, keep things maintained and enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like gold refining, you want to precipitate the lead out. Once done you can smelt it down and reconstitute into lead ingot. Low temps melt lead, so no need for toxic fumes. Once the lead is precipitate out you can reused your solution at least three times. It will be weaker, but it will still work. Once that last batch is done, add a base to neutralize and then disposed of safely.
Johnny you have an Omega 300. remove the caps to get more crap out of it by scrapping. Also heat up some water to around 180F and add some limi-shine to it. Not much but around 1-2 TBL spoons. Then submerge the suppresor. WOrks like a charm. I use it on brakes as well.
I clean my guns and suppressors with a product named “Shooter’s Lube -Stage 1 Military Grade” weapon cleaner. I spray removable baffles, wait a few minutes, then simply wipe down with a cloth. Baffles look like brand new when done. Same for their tube. For non-removable baffles, just pour an ounce into tube, put a finger over inlet & outlet, and shake it up to completely cover/soak the innards. Then drain after a few minutes (I reclaim the contents for future use), then stand it up on its end where it will “self dry” in an hour or two...
I am not a chemist but I did work at TBAC for some time. The suppressors they make are 100% titanium so I only recommend this with titanium suppressors only. CLR works really well at cleaning gunk out of suppressors. At TBAC they use the Zep brand CLR. It works really well getting the gunk out of them. If it is really bad you may need to repeat the process.
First thing. KEEP this video. It is educational and the more info we have on the dip being "less hazardous" the better. I cleaned my suppressors recently and have a batch of the dip sitting around. I have been researching for years how to make it less toxic. It seems NaCl (aka salt) would work. I found a chemistry video of lead acetate reaction with NaCl with the chemistry formula, but no actual concrete video. Been told to boil water to make it a super saturated NaCl solution then dump into dip to make Lead Cloride (or is it Lead Clorate?). NileRed I am sub too and saw that zinc vid. Considered it too. I am also partially ready to join his patreon for a month to ask questions he might be able to answer regarding this at home chemistry. Still looking for a place in my area that will dispose of lead acetate. Any time I call a hazmat place, I get the question of "what is lead acetate". Morons.
Ok with my limited chemistry knowledge i will offer a few suggestions here: 1: your bucket idea is ok for a waste bucket, but not the reaction vessel. The zinc will 'eat up' all the solution alongside the lead, unless the reaction turning the lead acetate to zinc in that solution requires lead acetate to be formed first. 2: as a few others have noted, if you want to speed this up buy a bag of powdered zinc from the internet/a metal or chemistry supplier. wire's alright for surface area, but you want surface area here. basically goes (from most to least) powder, granules, pellets (shot), and then just chunks of it. i'd put wire around the shot level. if you could find zinc mesh that would work faster too, but may fill up with lead pretty quick as well. long story short the finer the better. also, if you can, take the suppressor apart first. again, surface area. with it all put together the reaction is limited by how fast the reactants (peroxide and vinegar) are used up inside the suppressor tube. you've only got the small holes at the ends for "fresh" solution to get in. meanwhile if it's apart there will be more surfaces exposed constantly instead of it just being the outside of the can.
the piston clean is great for removing carbon on brakes and the bore . lots of f class guys use it or even clr . only it will remove bluing . it will even get a carboned up adjustable gas block lose .
Jonny, I use two methods to clean suppressors. I've found that "The Dip" works great on lead but not so well on carbon deposits. I read somewhere that you can take soda ash (sodium carbonate) and add that to the solution to neutralize the acid and precipitate out the lead. It's often sold as pool pH up at the hardware store. Add slowly and stir gently because it foams quite a bit. I'm not a chemist so I'm not sure this works but it does drop off a lot of the "white dust" into the solution. The blue color in your jar is likely dissolved copper from bullet jackets. For carbon, I soak my pistol baffles in a mixture of Lye(sodium Hydroxide) and water for a couple days. The carbon loosens up and can be wiped out or easily scraped off. You could also try firing some 223 rem to blast off the baffles since you can't take your suppressor apart. Lye is not good to get in your skin or eyes so make sure to use safety gear. however it's pretty safe to dump down the drain since it is used often in drain cleaning products. It should not be used on anything aluminum(only steel) as mixing with aluminum produces a toxic gas. It may strip off the finish on painted parts. Hope this helps.
CLR on carbon deposits. BUT don't leave it in the CLR for a long time as it can damage steel/stainless steel. 10-15 minutes works wonders. Search youtube on CLR on muzzle brakes.
Sodium carbonate is also sold as "washing soda". After I process circuit boards, I have to wash the etching tank. The rinsewater and the water in the dunk tank contain dissolved copper. I just add an excess of sodium carbonate to precipitate everything. Copper carbonate hydroxide isn't water-soluble. I don't know how that holds for lead. I'm assuming that the product would be a basic lead carbonate with low solubility as well. I don't know about the antimony fraction.
You are introducing many more elements to the solution, not just lead. The brown color is happening because your solution is oxidizing the steel (aka iron) in the brush you used as a way to remove the suppressor. Oxidized iron is also known as rust...which is causing the brown color of your solution. If your suppressor was a dedicated 22lr can, you would really just have lead buildup in the baffles, with a carbon and a little copper (if you shoot copper coated bullets). Since your suppressor is a centerfire can, there really isn't going to be much in the way of pure lead buildup...it's mostly carbon fouling...can't remove a lot of lead if it isn't there to being with. I use "The Dip" on my 22lr suppressors...I don't even bother cleaning my centerfire suppressor...especially since I can't remove the baffles. To dispose of my lead acetate solution, I just leave the jar open and let the solution evaporate over time (outside, of course)....only the lead is left in the bottom. I'll try the zinc method next time. IMO, cleaning a sealed centerfire suppressor is king of like trying to clean your car muffler. If the suppressor is still efficiently suppressing sound, then leave it alone. Running a carbon cleaner like that piston cleaner seems to be doing something, but if you can't get to the baffles to clean/scrap them, then what is the point?
something you forget that is a major contributor to fouling with 22LR and that is wax....22LR are lubricated with a fair amount of wax and boy oh boy does it build up
The white stuff is probably antimony acetate. It is moderately water-soluble and forms white crystals. Also, antimony is very common in lead alloys. As for the suppressor the brown stuff is probably hydrated iron oxide or rust. Not sure if it'll ruin the process tho as the visual can be more dramatic than the rusting damage actually is. I'd like to see you try again with the suppressor and this time reduce the volume of your solution by boiling so the lead would come out more easily (also get's rid of the leftover peroxide).
Lead oxide and silver oxide are water insoluble and form a white precipitate. I believe the lead will be destroyed/ converted if you boil it, which is how you separate the 2 if you’re trying to rev over the silver for instance. No idea how tin and antimony react with h2o2 and/or acidic acid.
If I understand correctly, the silencerco omega’s outer serialized thin wall tube can be unscrewed from the core (bother ends off to) and then put the Core into a water rotary Tumbler with stainless steal media to clean the carbon deposits. It took me about 6 hours of 3 hot Dawn water baths to clean a Sparrow core, but boy is that thing clean now.
I can't get mine apart anymore, but it's headed back to silencerco soon. I worry a lot about using the rotary tumbler and getting steel chips or pins stuck in there. I've heard it works awesome, though.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench Lok at replacing the Omega endcap with the AREA 419 cap and using the adaptors for your rifles. This allows you to switch betwen different thread pitches without touching the can. I use it on almost ALL my rifles and have seen ZERO impact shift between removal and re-install
@@JohnnysReloadingBench on the plus side, the SilCo folks are great about taking care of stuff. I had an end cap strike with my Hybrid and an aftermarket barrel. I contacted SilCo because I wanted to make sure there wasn't damage inside the can I couldn't see. About 3 weeks after sending it to them, it was back with 'no damage found' and a new end cap. That led to a trip to the friendly local suppressor shop where I discovered their 1/2x28XL piston and it's internal 'shoulder' that was designed for thinner pistol barrels that don't have enough metal for a proper shoulder.
Hi college chemistry student, some info may be off. the blue solution looks to probably be cuprous acetate from the copper jackets of the bullets. That line that was forming appears to be the separation between the lead and zinc acetate with lead metal floating in between (lighter than lead acetate and heavier than the zinc acetate) The orange mist that formed was probably a mix of iron and copper dissolving off the wire holder and inside of the baffles. As for the white precipitate I don’t think I know at all why could have caused it other than maybe some weird reaction between an oxide layer on the lead balls Cool experiment! Would love to see it tried again, maybe try filtering the precipitates with a coffee filter at the end too?
I think a large part of the solution change in color was due to the other elements that would be found along with lead I.e. Copper, powder and lead as well, compared to your first test with pure round ball lead. So the addition of these elements most likely negated some of the effectiveness of the solution.
Thank you for making this video. I have been curious about this for a while, but all the information I could find on the web is inconsistent and not trustworthy. I'm still trying to figure out a legitimate way to dispose of sulfuric acid that I used to anodize some AR parts.
I’ve had my suppressor for 6 years. It’s a 22 AAC Element. I just throw the stainless baffles into my wet tumbler and let it run all night. Sometimes I tumble the baffles with my brass. Keep in mine, I have to tumble them for a very long time, 12-24 hours. I don’t use the suppressor all the time because I don’t like cleaning it.
I watched the video twice, because the first time I didn't see where you did a cleaning with the suppressor in the solution with zinc at the same time. You only put zinc in the solution after the suppressor was taken out. What happens when you put the zinc in with the suppressor, or just lead balls if you don't have another suppresser to clean? Is the cleaning faster? Slower? No change? I clean my compensators with the peroxide/vinegar solution, but would like to see what happens with zinc added during the cleaning. Any chance you will make another video showing this?
You passivate lead acetate by just adding table salt. Lead Acetate + Sodium Chloride = Lead Chloride + Sodium Acetate. This is a balanced double replacement (metathesis) reaction. Add enough salt that it won't all dissolve when the solution is heated to boiling. In this supersaturated brine, no lead acetate can still exist. And then, to decompose the lead chloride, mix it with soda ash and heat it to melting. The soda ash neutralizes the HCL vapors (Hydrochloric acid) that will result.
@Shannon idk if the piston clean is similar to CLR but that’s what I have heard people using to clean there suppressors and muzzle brakes also barrels ?????? Idk maybe that might work for you
Interesting chemistry. I live in a cancer belt part of my state from decades of factories doing this and just dumping in the landfill near water. Smart huh?!🧐 got to love our industrial might sometimes. 😔
You should check out stingerworx suppressors. You can break it down to individual parts and get it clean without worrying about parts inside the can that are hard to get to.
There was an article on the web about using the dip to clean stainless steel. While it does not appear to cause damage to the steel, it actually does cause oxidation. That's what that brownish colored stuff was. Rust. You rusted/oxidized parts of your can, dude. Unless you go to town with cast lead or high pressure exposed-base FMJs, there shouldn't be much of any lead in your can. Use a solution to dissolve the carbon from time to time, and you'll be good.
Like someone else has said, since you're making lead salts by reacting the lead, copper, etc with the acetic acid I think your best bet is to let it dry out naturally and disposing of the remaining solids with your local special chemical disposal center. That being said, if they won't take it, I'd suggest you mix it with some epoxy.
Suppressors are a consumable item, stripable ones make life easier but there comes a time to throw a can in the trash can. Given you guys have a lot more invested in them than we do in europe.
so what? most things are 'consumable' if you put it like that, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to clean them and make them last longer. mind you, cleaning them probably makes the gas cutting damage to the baffles worse as its not protected by a layer of carbon.
Lead oxide is white, perhaps the H202 is forming it faster than the vinegar can dissolve it.. idk? would the oxidation be accelerated by including some kinds of salts?
The white sediment could either be some poorly soluble lead salts like lead sulfate, perhaps from sulfates in your tap water, or from some other additives in the lead that would form insoluble salts. Maybe antimony?
Take your suppressor and soak it in prolong engine treatment. It's an anti friction metal treatment. It will also soak into the metal and allow for easy clean up with muscle fp10 for fire arms. Or weapon shield is the same type of product. The film from the product keeps carbon from clinging to metal surface. It's also a super lube for all metal . heat up your can with heat gun to about 150 200 degrees and soak it in the treatment sir. Leave it soak for a day or two to fully coat and penetration of all parts of your suppressor .
Hey Johnny, I'd be interested to see crushed zinc tablets (the kind you get in the vitamin section) poured the into the solution. I need to clean my 22 can so I'll give it a try when I do.
Those probably won't work. You need relatively pure zinc metal in order for the replacement reaction to work, and those tablets don't use pure zinc, they use some type of zinc compound.
I think the reason you got that red solution when putting the suppressor in is because. The original chemicle you cleaned it in was likely still inside the suppressor which resulted in a different chemicle reaction. As opposed to just lead and your peroxide/vinegar solution. It is also worth noting you also added the material the suppressor is made out of which I'm assuming is steel. Which would oxidize in that solution. Then there's also the presence of carbon and any other foreign materials that may or may not be in the suppressor. Really just a lot of variables there. But I'd assume the original cleaning solution would be the root cause. Update: so I watched the rest of the video. I can't deny the brush did seem to be the cause. However you still might consider what I said above for future experiments.
Water contamination can play with your end result. Best bet is to use distilled water . Also, the sugar of lead can be used to make pigment ( toxic though ) .
That's an awesome idea. I'd like for it to evaporate over time, but it would probably be safer to have something spill-proof for long term. Definitely something I'll consider.
The reason it took so long is because the mixture was too cold. A safe way to dispose of the Leadacetate is to boil off the solution. It turns the lead acetate back into lead-oxide.
