Zweihander - Montante (Greatsword) Sparring - Nick (AHF) vs Jordan (AOS)

Подписаться 65 тыс.

Просмотров 36 тыс.

50% 1

These swords go by many names, Zweihander, Schlachtschwert, Spadone, Montante etc, but in English are today commonly called Greatswords. All terms for the family of massive two handed swords, the largest ever used in Europe, and typically ranging between 5' to 7' long. Jordan is using a Black Fencer v4 Montante synthetic, and Nick a custom version of the Black Fencer Flamberge model made to the same length as the V4 Montante. Therefore these training swords are near identical in spec, at 162cm long, 2.2kg total weight, and within a completely realistic specs for this size of montante or greatsword. Hence they are used with care and control as they can generate a lot of force. Nick Thomas of the Academy of Historical Fencing is in the red jacket, and Jordan Mock of the Academy of Steel in black.
This was filmed at the Gathering of Wolves event, 2023, organised by the Academy of Steel. Also worth noting that this was the very last sparring bout of a very busy two day event when fatigue is really setting in for all.

Спорт

Опубликовано:

2 май 2023

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист

Посмотреть позже

Комментарии : 81

@leftwardglobe1643 Год назад

As we can see: period inspired floofy pants do, indeed, provide a significant bonus to hit chance while wielding greatswords.

@bondvagabond42 2 месяца назад

I think they are called puffling pants, hah

@_ariosto1519 20 дней назад

I thought the fluffy was to hide where the legs are, but your argument holds water 🧐

@Pamjamelia Год назад

It's funny to me how media always shows greatswords as being brutish, crude weapons. And yet they look so elegant in motion here. Obviously you're tired, and holding back a bit to avoid clattering each other, but still. I haven't done any HEMA in *ages* so I have to wonder what it's actually like to fight with these things, based on what I know about longsword (which, even then, isn't that much but I learned a good chunk of the fundamentals at least!)

@musicfunlax1224 Год назад

Think in a real fight with all the steel armor and swords it would look quite different. Hitting whouldn't it be done with more force and much be more brutish trying to unbalance the opponent? And to find vulnerable spots for stabbing..

@Pamjamelia Год назад

@@musicfunlax1224 The main thing, of course, would be that you wouldn't be holding back for your opponent's safety. I wager you don't need to swing these things too hard to cause a lot of damage, even with armour because of all that blunt force. You don't want to swing something like that too hard that you lose your own balance, of course. I'm mostly just guessing here, hah!

@DerAptrgangr Год назад

@@musicfunlax1224 these aren't particularly ideal for heavily armored enemies. The blade won't cut through steel armor. I think with two fully armored Doppelsöldner you'd see the opponents trying to close, and use the parierhoken as an impromptu pick, or half-swording to use it more like a spear. Additionally, greatswords work best when kept in motion. You see a lot of longsword technique with these lighter replicants. You don't need to swing a greatsword as hard as you can, but to try to keep it in motion. They are very heavy so starting/stopping takes more effort.

@faizyuki 11 месяцев назад

@@DerAptrgangrBut wouldn't these great swords still do significant damage to heavily armored opponents? I know swords really aren't meant for heavily armored opponent. Mace and other blunt weapons are meant for that. And I know swords can't cut through metal armor. But wouldn't these greatsword can still deal enough blunt force against heavy armor opponent? It's still a long metal stick in a way. I would imagine there could be a broken bone or two if it hits your arm or something since you have more momentum each swing. Or would that never happen in a heavily armored 1v1 between greatsword wielders?

@DerAptrgangr 11 месяцев назад

@@faizyuki let me be clear, you can generate a substantial amount of force behind a greatsword, and I don't want to get hit with one, regardless of what armor I'm wearing. 😂 There's definitely the possibility of causing injury or damage despite armor for sure. Or even just knocking your opponent down, which is obviously very advantageous. The biggest issue is that a glancing or insufficient blow could be entirely negated. And while that's true for any weapon, with the size and weight of a greatsword, it adds extra risk to a failed powerful swing. Which is why, in that situation, I would rather choke up on the sword and use it more like a spear, so I can get better precision to attack a weak spot, and better leverage if the opponent moves in to grapple. But yeah, it's not like it would be useless against an armored opponent - you're definitely right about that. :)

@OKChamp Год назад

This is absolutely fascinating

@lefthandedhemawithlordrami8220 Год назад

Nice to see more clubs srarring Montante. We regularly spar Montante with the Blackfencer synthetics at my club Tidewater Renaissance Fighting Arts.

@dylanwing2168 5 месяцев назад

How have you found the Blackfencer synthetics? Im thinking about getting one for solo drill practice, would you say they are a good match for weight and balance?

@lefthandedhemawithlordrami8220 5 месяцев назад

@@dylanwing2168 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mqn-uZ2-sBs.htmlsi=jrZRpaDtz1dGUVB1

@A_Medieval_Shadow Год назад

Such Graceful movements are the reason why my love for the Zweihander/Montante/etc. Began

@JustGrowingUp84 Год назад

I love it! Please consider making a video about how it feels to spar with such a long sword, compared to a regular longsword. Is it difficult to adjust your movements in order to not hit the floor?

@cloudforest4087 8 месяцев назад

The blade in circular motion is a treat to see. Skillful fighter.

@zwidowca1 Год назад

Now that is some proper "crowd control" : D. Great fencing as always!

@troelsdc 8 месяцев назад

I could watch this for hours.

@agish3169 Год назад

4:10 I would have run too if I saw someone with a massive sword

@3BEPbKO Год назад

I think the guy in black did a bit of Marozzo, but Morozzo describes the weapon in a shorter and lighter way than a montante. I would recommend learning the Figuyredo technique, the author was in the military and had a lot of practice.

@davidschlageter5962 4 месяца назад

Scary big swords!!

@xact13 Год назад

Excellent! Looks exhausting-Was this more fatiguing sparring when compared to other weapons?

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

It is much more tiring than most sword combinations yes, and more so than many polearms. This was also filmed right at the end of a two day HEMA event where we were both rather fatigued.

@aaronvalentinalferez2306 6 месяцев назад

So cool! Could you be so kind as to share the link to the black suit pls?

@Davlavi Год назад

nice match up.

@WaybackFencingClub Год назад

Idea! Comparison video of "combat" lighstabers and hema sword stats. Like point of balance, length, weight, handling, etc.

@ringadingding7667 11 месяцев назад

nice

@Druid_Ignacy Год назад

Most of the time this is clear example of strike true vs look good; but at 3:42 ,,look good fencer" pulls off really impressive action! ,,We need to cut da balls" (singing) xd Dagger action is awesome as well.

@randomprimarissalamander8735 6 месяцев назад

Seeing stuff like this really makes hme want to get into this kind of thing more ive always been interested in buhurt but its always felt out of of my price range an actual range due to the apparent lack of clubs in the uk HEMA seems like a good compromise option but again no idea where to find clubs ill have fo see if jy university has one

@freifechterbasel6115 Год назад

Are there sources that advise to cut in duels with the greatsword? I only know ones that are rather strict with advising thrusts only (Godinho and di Grassi). I'd be very happy if you could give me a hint.

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

Very little is written about one on one with the greatsword, but yes, Godinho says you should only thrust when they face one another one on one, though it is worded in a way which implies many do cut in that scenario, and that his advice is different to them. We are currently working on two approaches to the greatsword, looking to understand it from a German perspective through the lens of Meyer's polearms, and also from a civilian perspective in fighting multiple opponent's from Godinho. In all our tests we have found Godinho's advice on thrusting only in this scenario to be very limiting with some major weaknesses.

@freifechterbasel6115 Год назад

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencingYes, Godinho (and di Grassi to a much larger extent) seems to regard anything but thrusts in duels with contempt. And I tend to agree with them on the basis of my limited experience. As such we seem to have very different experiences. How interesting. In my experience its not much different from a spear and moving the blade out of line is a sure way to get hit by a halfway competent opponent. But I'm very interested in opinions different from mine. If you ever find time to elaborate on the reasons why cuts with the greatsword might be good in duels, I'd love to hear them! And I love the idea of doing Meyer polearm with the greatsword!🥰

@josephlucas4024 Год назад

George Silver advises you to use cuts and thrusts like a staff in his two handed sword section (which is different than a bastard sword since other contemporary English sources make a distinction).

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

The moving off the line thing being a sure way to get thrust is sort of true but there are some major ezceptions. For a start, thrusts here typically have to target the body, when the counter cuts can strike the arms out of that thrust distance. Also supressing cuts against thrusts are really effective and can create large openings on those who thrust. Meyer's polearm section shows all of this so well, and it is a universal system for staff, halberd etc, and he does even make reference to the greatsword in his earlier 1561 text. We have found that if you do not cut you merely lose a large amount of options and you pose a far lesser threat to the opponent, of which threat is a huge part of the greatsword. Parried thrusts can also often have far quicker ripostes than parried cuts too, because less energy and bracing is needed to set them aside. As an interesting parralel we can look to the 18th century advice of how to use broadsword (basket hilt) against smallsword, which only thrusts. The advice is essentially to keep out of distance and cut the hell out of their sword arm, and then use drawing cuts if you get in close. For me this perfectly highlights the issue of using only thrust work with montante. However, we will continue to do tests and make videos about that too.

@freifechterbasel6115 Год назад

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Looking forward to it! I appreciate you taking the time to explain as well! I think I understand your arguments and I can very much relate to the broadsword-smallsword example, having used that sort of strategy against rapierists with a sidesword. I'll just have to respectfully disagree that it applies equally to the greatsword due to the difference in movement length, acceleration and resulting time units. But it doesn't mean that I cannot be convinced. I feel like this would be a good time for show-and-tell, which is sadly not an option to me as I lack the filming equipment and editing skills. But I'm super interested in your future videos. Keep up the good work!

@tomtr6854 Год назад

Where can I get one ???

@indisponib1le 7 месяцев назад

I'm not an expert but just interested, could you tell me what a Flamberge is best for and what a Montante is best for?

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing 7 месяцев назад

Montante is a type of large two handed sword, both in this video could be called montante, though they are usually a tad shorter and lighter than the typically even larger German two handed greatswords (called schlactschwert etc). They are great shock weapons as they can offend at any distance (almost the reach of a pole weapon but sharp and dangerous along it's whole length like a sword). They were often used to defend standards and valuable targets, VIPs in civilian life and town guards etc. Also as shock infantry. Flamberge is merely the wavy blade shape and it can be found on all sorts of sword types over many hundreds of years. The reason for it are argued and speculated over endlesssly. The potential reasons in shorts are, fashion, intimidation, binding ability, draw cut potential. I edge towards fashion and intimidation.

@Szeiker Год назад

Jordan has a great Batman's armour

@user-er3cs7iw2f Год назад

Такие мечи использовались против пехотинца в тяжёлых доспехах?

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

They were used in unarmoured scenarios, partially armoured and almost fully armoured, but really they are best suited to unarmoured or partially armoured combat, where they were used in civilian and military contexts

@penjaminthestrange4427 4 месяца назад

Flamberge nylon greatsword?!?!?! not me wanting a nylon flamberge longsword or arming sword that would be TOO COOL

@juanmiguelpalacioesteban5591 8 месяцев назад

I have seen many fights between 2handed weapons,but I never have seen a montante vs danish axe(or even danish bearded axe) could yo upload some video of that kind of battle? It would be great seeing attacks , disarms, and parries, besides the speed of both weapons in a real fight, and knowing which weapon cause more damage to a chainmailed warrior, leather armoured warrior,and plate armor warrior... and de diference with only gambesoned warrior. Too if possible, which one has more hardness/resistance to hits/blend/cut strenght/smash strenght And wich one of them causes more tiring. Too, in a one vs one fight between equaled experienced warriors, which one has more posibilities of winning, and finally, which one of them is more easy for cutting a member (leg,arm) armored and not armored, or even wich one of them it is better for destroy stomach organs. in some films I have seen a great sword cut down a chainmailed warrior from shoulder to waist.is that real accurate? Can do a dane axe the same with equal physical effort? And finally, during the same time in a fight, wich one of them causes more tiring? By one hand is for curiosity, by the other hand is for document myself for a novel about a medieval warrior. Wich one of them has more hardness versus hits (the long blade or the long axe haft) And which one is better for disarms.(the axe has his curves in head, but the sword has their crossguard) To end, wich one causes the worst injures or has more puncture power (the axe head is solid and heavier, but the montante has more edge lenght for puncturing. So...wich one of them is deadlier? (If the warriors are equaled in battle prowess/ hability. And speed? wich one is more maneauverable? Something like "stats" of each weapon writing at his side wich one would win Attack Disarm Parry Speed Damage vs gambeson Damage vs plate Damage vs mail Damage vs leather Ressistance to hits(hardness) Res.Blend Cut strenght Smash strenght Tiring % victory % dismembering - armored - disarmored - % destroy organs - % cut in two parts - worst injures -better puncture power -deadly -speed Too detailed data, but knowing this, whatever one could appreciate more the running of a fight, the hability of combatants, and the endurance vs injures and hits of both...enjoying much more of the fight, abd appteciating much more the battle prowess of each warrior depending on his diference between kind of armouring heigh,strenght,dexterity, inteligent movements etc etc

@bladeRoller Год назад

Was thrusting ruled out?

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

Nope, it was allowed. There are two successful thrusts landed in this fight, one each, and several others attempted.

@Mephiston1984LoD Год назад

🙂

@brucejedilee5290 8 месяцев назад

A character in the book I'm working on uses a greatsword as one of his primary weapons, this video will help me describe how he fights with it.

@thiagorodrigues5211 Год назад

That's an awkward sword to use. Was this the one they used against pikes? Seems too heavy and cumbersome for anything else.

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

Their use against pikes is way overstated due to a misunderstanding and also bad research. They had many uses, in civilian use they were used as bodyguard weapons, for guards etc. In the military they were used as shock troops and more often to protect important people and objects, such as standard bearers etc. Heavy and cumbersome to a degree yes, but also massively outreaching all other swords, and they can be used like a small pole arm if you need to face polearms.

@thiagorodrigues5211 Год назад

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing What about it's use against armor? Because it doesn't look like it would be good for that either. It's not pointy and all. Just out of curiosity since I'm just a casual reader about that and you guys are literally teaching historical fencing! And would you recommend any website or book for someone who wants to learn more about it?

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

They were often used in and against armour, but it was mostly against partial armours that were popular in the 16th century. In these cases the cuts can target unarmoured areas, but these swords can also thrust well and with halfswording techniques and taking hold of the ricasso they can be used well in closer range for thrust work. Some sources even show single hand thrusts with these for example. This book is a good overview to the subject - www.amazon.co.uk/Two-Handed-Sword-History-Design/dp/1526733137/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+two+handed+sword&qid=1683241488&sr=8-1

@thiagorodrigues5211 Год назад

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing thanks a lot for whoever is replying to this, thanks for the attention and the link. Definitely buying this one!

@DerAptrgangr Год назад

@@thiagorodrigues5211 just a note, *these* ones aren't pointy at all because they are a synthetic replica. They aren't real swords, and they aren't sharpened or designed to be lethal weapons. A real greatsword would be able to both cut with the sharpened blade, and thrust with the sharpened tip.

@SirPlusOfCamelot 9 месяцев назад

Each exchange would have lasted longer had you guys been using steel swords rather than synthetic.

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing 9 месяцев назад

Sadly in the case of these weapons that is because with steel you have to hold back massively, and so it becomes a more a light technical exercise rather than a fight. Even with these synthetics we have to be very careful, but we can swing them through in ways that become extremely dangerous for our training partners with steel. This is the only sword type we use where steel is not the norm, and sadly I don't think it will ever be. We will post some light contact stuff using steel in the future, but it is hugely restrictive because ultimately near 6' of steel is very dangerous.

@olivierviudes6268 6 месяцев назад

Dont get the point to train zweihander with plastic sword. It s so différent to train with steel and even more with big Swords. Even if you have experience with this, good luck with a real one. Half of your moves will never work.

@baisansebastian3358 6 месяцев назад

...Do you realize what happens when you spar with a Steel Montante and a hit connects on your opponent? What usually happen is a serious injury , FYI.

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing 6 месяцев назад

You're missing the point, steel swords of this size are devastating in their striking power. We do train with steel versions, and foam padded versions, and these synthetics. Each training sword type allows us to train different elements of the greatsword, but if you train with steel alone you simply cannot fully practice with partners as they were intended to be used. Each tool has it's strengths and weaknesses, as well as realism in what it represents when training with opponents. Lastly, the synthetic variants we are using in this video are not underweight compared to originals. They are in the lighter range of swords of this type and size, but within it, so no, the difference is not what you think. When we go to steel we move them just the same way, it's just so much more dangerous to anyone in front of it. We use a range of trainers between 2-3.5kg, which is the typical range of the original swords.

@anitaremenarova6662 2 месяца назад

Real steel of this size can only be used against heavy armor, also you have to be in *REALLY* good shape to swing up to 33lbs like nothing.

@JohnMcKLV 7 дней назад

@@anitaremenarova6662 No functional sword ever reached 33 pounds. 8 pounds is about the maximum practical limit.

@Kerilian Год назад

Guys, sorry, but most of that strikes couldn`t make any damage. You are working with really big swords, in protection, but slapping each other like children. That is not good)

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

Sorry but you are completely wrong. We are delivering good blows that would be devastating if the blades were sharp. We are pulling the blows because these trainers are full weight and are capable of delivering a lot of force, but that is merely the blow being pulled at the poiint of contact to not injure one another, the strikes are delivered with full range of motion and speed. Remember that this is simulating an unarmoured fight, not a fight in full armour, which incidentally would look very different and not be attempting to smack one another.

@Kerilian Год назад

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing 00:46 - very light slap 00:53 - that is not thrust, just touch 01:01 - again, there were no investment of strength 04:44 - there were force in that cut Another strikes could make some blood.. But this couldn`t, even if you were in casual jackets. I think it would be useful for your sport to simulate a fight in quilted jackets. there you need a greater application of force, which forces you to improve technique, speed and strength indicators

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Год назад

@@Kerilian With those time stamps that is simply not true. I think you just don't realise what you are looking at. This isn't full contact buhurt or something like that. We are using the full range of motion for strikes but we are not applying full force at point of contact. Because the protective gear will not stand up to those sorts of strikes like a full armour will in buhurt, and it's not supposed to, because this is representing an unarmoured fight. The thrusts you think were just a touch, if they were just a touch neither one of us would have stopped and called the hits. We stopped because we felt a stroke thrust that would have penetrated te body. Though once again, we do not keep on pushing with more force then because that is simple dangerous. You say 00:46 was merely a slap, but that couldn't be further from the truth, it is a full motion cut, just not with full force put in at the point of impact. because that is not needed, the cut went through the full range of motion, everyone knows what has been done, no need to try and break his rib. 04:44 - it's called a draw or slicing cut, and it a vital component part to many unarmoured fighting systems. We simulate many different things in HEMA from unarmoured to partially armoured and sometimes full armour too, but what is being practiced here is unarmoured fencing. We aren't trying to apply a greater application of force, you are merely comparing apples and oranges.

@DerAptrgangr Год назад

@@Kerilian out of curiosity, what is your experience with historical swordfighting? I disagree with all of your conclusions about the time stamped strikes you mention. Also, noting that one of the things about practicing swordfighting, is that I'll bet both of these people want to do it more than once. Which means you practice safety over lethality. These are not safe to swing/thrust with at full force. Especially not in the safety equipment they're wearing. But all of those strikes were good strikes.

@Kerilian Год назад

@@DerAptrgangr I practice two or three times a week. we mean full-contact saber combat in quilted jackets. there are a number of features of the rules, in particular, greater requirements for protection (leads to more accurate work with fewer mutual blows) and the correct execution of the blows themselves (a sufficient level of force is required, correct trajectories and places of blows). Since we are constantly thinking about practical nuances, we had to discard touches and slaps like the one I described above. What the guys showed in the video is more like Olympic fencing than practical fencing - there are too many nuances and rules that go beyond reality. If they like it, who am I to judge. But from the side jambs are visible)