🔴 WHY WE LEFT ACADEMIA (THE FINAL STRAW THAT MADE EACH OF US LEAVE) 

Heading towards completion of my PhD , and teaching . Fact is, I’m already done with academia. Middle finger is already in the air

I feel like I am listening to people who escaped a religious cult or something.

I recently completed my PhD and moved into industry. One thing I can say that I noticed in academia - which was the key reason really for me to leave - was that it was so easy for PI's to screw you over when they not pleased with you, even if your work was on par and excellent. I really saw myself being used as a publication generation machine for the benefit of the PI instead of them also dedicating themselves to my career development. When I made it known that I wanted to leave, my PI got mad at me and even went on a full blown character assassination because I was no longer going to produce papers for them. With this, they also intentionally delayed my work and progress, but thankfully I had other supportive people who just made sure that I finish on time

I started feeling suspicious when my advisor said "Don't worry, everybody has a nervous breakdown when they're doing their PhD."

The stress caused by narcissistic abuse, simply put

I learned about many things in my PhD program but for the most part what I got out of the program was not the biomedical sciences PhD level research education that I was looking for. I learned mostly about the nature of people ( good and bad). I learned about toxic cultures, politics, inductrination, manipulation, exploitation, racisim, hate, scare tactics, fraud. I learned that for some reason PhDs and MD's within an institute don't get along and don't collaborate. I learned that in academia they are focused on grants, power and politics and not education of students in the field of study that the students joined the program to gain expertese in. I also learned that most students who join PhD programs are very trusting and get manipulated easily by evil faculty and PI's, because those students dont have the basic scientific mindset to question things, investigate things and analyze things to determine if what they are being told is true or not. I learned that although academia is mostly super toxic, there are still some good people sprinkled among the many evil people. I left academia and dropped out of my PhD because of all the overwhelming negative things that I experienced in the program, but the experience did open my eyes, and it was a learning experience.

I am so glad the truth is coming out. The general public is wholly unaware of this. Yet this is a far stretching phenomenon.

Hearing people speak and comparing it to what I’ve learned in recent years, I think the issue lies in the fact that some people seem to completely idealize the academic world, putting it on a pedestal as if it were something special and completely different from what the rest of the people have to deal with. At the end of the day, being a professor is a job, no matter how much you like it, and this means you are not immune from all the issues that people have to face when being an employee somewhere. In industry people often find themselves working for a department in a company with a bad environment, meaning with rude, demanding managers that yell at them, make them work overtime so their figures for productivity go up, play favorites etc. and colleagues that are not always nice in the sense that they may suck up to their bosses, gossip a lot, be lazy and stick you with the work, be jealous and ruin your work etc. It’s still a job and if you don’t approach it as such, you are going to make life very difficult for yourself. The issue I see with academia is that people in it purposefully create this mythical image of it so that they can guilt-trip people into accepting the worse conditions ever, like low pay for high end work and a bad environment. In industry, people handle this by looking for a new job. You don’t need to change fields, but in academia it’s unheard of to change your PhD advisor, PI, department etc. Even when you have tenure, it’s basically impossible to move to a different department or even a new university. You are stuck many times.

Damn. Academia has got WORSE in 30 years? I have spent years dealing with depression, OCD, and numerous other issues which came up in grad school.

It is so shocking to me that the most basic of understanding about stress, how to detect you are experiencing it, and how deal with it, is blatantly absent from modern science. Everybody knows by now that washing your hands before an operation will avoid infections, and yet nothing is known about what to do about emotions. Astonishing.

past a certain point in the academic career ladder, it starts to become more of a popularity contest and less of a competition for the best technical science. i can see those who are in positions higher than me that it is being great public communicators that got them there, and what they have done technically are often not really impressive when you know what is state of the art or what is technically possible. i don't want to choose between wasting my time playing the popularity game or being the sucker doing the real work that boost these people's career and ego.

Left my tenure-track professor job (after 2.5 years) today for an industry job. My research proposal was accepted for funding three weeks ago. But I just made up my mind to take up the industry job that came along later. Was just tired with too much teaching and lack of time for research. Totally agree with the video about the lack of support.

That first story about the rage-filled superior in the lab is awful. I work in the manufacturing industry with some rough-and-tumble people and I've never seen a foreman or manager dole out that kind of abuse. I've seen the odd shouting match and "fuck you-s" thrown around plenty of times but that "I'm going to ruin your career" business is a sign that person is rotten to the core.

"I have to laugh so that I don't cry" Yup, that's how you go through it.

THANK YOU. It's so easy to feel isolated and blame oneself for not trying hard enough. Hearing your perspectives made me feel like I'm not completely crazy!

I am heading towards completing my Ph.D., and during these 3.5 years, the only thing I got is my mental problems. Thank you for this conversation. I thought only I was struggling with those feelings toward Ph.D. and academia overall.

I left a Physics PhD program in 1996 on my own accord. When I noticed that publications, which should have been 12-page papers to "Physical Review", were submitted as four 3-page articles to "Physics Letters" I knew it was basically a racket. That was one thing that soured me to the whole deal. I have Masters' Degrees in Physics and Engineering (There's a Dr. Science joke in there.), and am grateful for the career that I have. In industry, you work on projects/programs/products that get funded; in academia, you work in research topics that get funded.

I have a passive aggressive and selfish mentor as a postdoc. She always blames the lab techs, students and postdocs. Thanks for sharing.

I’m just glad that people have an outlet to be able to heal.

I devloped all kinds of immune problems from the stress during PhD, including hair loss, asthma, and skin rashes. Hair loss and skin rashes went away after the defense. I still have asthma but it’s manageable. Haha, still in academia but trying to transition out to industry.

I'm a wannabe looking for a more meaningful career, so thank you all for sharing your honest experiences. It's not roses *anywhere* What a tough issue. Workers need to unite more than ever.

Thank all of you for sharing! I feel much better with my decision now

Thank you for sharing this video. You can definitely hear the pain in Amanda's voice. More love and success to your guys.

I want to finish my phd, but I do suffer panic attacks, heartburn and a huge fear of rejection, which means that i do tend to isolate myself with my work (history). This was, is my dream, but I have put a life of real work, pension and friendship on the sidelines. I am sad, but I will have a phd, I will.

I definitely faced a lot of abuse by people I worked with in academia. The people attracted to this industry are high in narcissistic traits.

I have so much respect for all of you coz of your honesty and transparency ... thanks for sharing

Thank you very much for sharing your views. I also left a couple of years ago. Good to hear others go through something similar and make it.

Many thanks for this wonderful, open and honest discussion. I agree, often, there isn't one breaking point. Just a series of disappointments, that gradually make you realize this is not working out. That's what it was for me. For ages, though, I didn't want to admit that to myself. In the end, I had no real option but to leave academia, and also, at that point, the country where I did my PhD. The saddest aspect, in hindsight, is the fact that leaving academia has also meant letting go a crucial part of my identity. Unfortunately, this left my interests/ passions kind of contaminated. When I read about my former field, there's still a sort of lingering sadness. I also miss the academic lifestyle, being an expat in an inspiring, international setting, being part of an international community working in this field.

I'm glad I'm not alone when Elliott described it as soul sucking, even if I only have a BA. After graduation, I just felt dead inside, and continued to feel burned out for a year after that. I don't know if I really want to go back for the MA.

Hi Hankel, you speak really well, the way you describe things is animating great work!

The other hit to doing a PhD is having the willingness and ability to teach yourself: why bother with the whole drill of a PhD program when you can buy a few books, take a couple of on-line classes, join a Professional Society and research the relevant literature yourself? Over the years, I've had to learn new things (multiple programming languages, electronics, RF/microwave engineering, space stuff, etc.) *and* revisit topics in Physics: electromagnetism (Jackson, Zangwill, etc.) and semiconductors, etc. (I'm glad a kept my old books, and bought new ones!)

Thank you for this 🙏🙏🙏

OMG Amanda looks like she’s about to burst into tears after only the 1st minute. All I can say, as someone who got out just over 11 years ago, is that it does get better. You do stop guilt-tripping yourself. You do start to heal and take better care of yourself. You do start to learn that it’s possible to have a normal, happy satisfying experience in your workplace. You also find that businesses are happy to hire smart, motivated, productive people. They also pay better salaries

I so much empathize. It took me 8 years between Ph.D. and tenure-track job. Now I am preparing to retire after 26 years of service. Looking back I so much wonder whether it was worth it. After having spent so many endless hours doing mindless admin and answering pointless emails, and so little doing what I was meant to do, namely research and teaching, I feel that it is time to go. Yes, it can be a very toxic environment, even if you are lucky enough to land a job in a half-decent place. Hard to get in, hard to move, and hard to leave. Go and do a job that makes a lot of money. You may hate it, but you will be making a lot of money and you can retire early.

Amanda's constant smile made my day

I think that the most crucial reason to leave academia is that there are not enough tenure track positions for most of the people with a PhD, and therefore alternative career paths need to be found. Negative experiences such as those you described may happen, but in many cases we make good experiences. I did a PhD and two postdocs and I am scandalized with the way you mentioned you were treated, because I always had fairly good relationships with the people I worked with. Motivation to stay in academic is generally not about money or career, but about discovery, contribution for knowledge in some profound way, etc., and it is not for everybody. Many of the frustrations are just natural since results are usually very slow to come, which is naturally against our anxious human nature. Anyway, I think your videos are really nice and helpful. People who enjoy research find it difficult to self-motivate to industry, and you help with this, so I really appreciate your work!

Random schedule and I barely ate, slept poorly. But I finished it and took 8 grad courses as a bachelor. That year I lived off fries, Chinese eggs, rice, beans and porridge. I was like I'm finishing this and I am out of here.

I came from industry, loved it. But realised I needed a PhD to get the better jobs. Sadly, after the PhD, which was wonderful, great pi's and such a calm and supporting place to work. I graduated on time with two publications as first author. There were no industry jobs at the time so I had to take a post doc. Not putting much here but i relate to the first speaker. Happily, I am now moving back into industry and to a wonderful supportive system.

Personal perspectives are useful but they leave out half the equation. The other problem is structural. Fiscal crises mean that PhD scholarships have dwindled, knowledge is mostly freely available, and full-time teaching positions have declined. Research universities focus on ranking, and are unforgiving on quality publications. Hence they are for the top 5%. Good teaching universities are looking for students and cheaper ways and fewer hires to deliver quality education using IT. Then there are those at the bottom, not good at research or education. At the personal level, some depts operate in research groups and heaven or hell depends on the leading professor. Others are more collegial, and yet others fell like a war zone among different groups over resources. Then there is the problem of proliferation of PhDs. Decades ago, only the top 5% go on to do their PhDs. Nowadays, we don't even hire newly minted Ivy League doctoral graduates without strong publications.

I saw two very recent videos that touched on this topic. The first talked about the political movement for loan forgiveness, that it was designed to fail from, the proponents. Because it would bait students into a sense of ease into taking out additional... Student loans... The other talked about how the Achedemic track is a pyramid scheme and because of the insane competition to advance and the fact that one in a PI position the are few if any checks and balances. You end up with... Insane pressure to publish... A load of classes in which any could be cancelled without notice... Major health issues from the stress... Vindictive PIs that can say things like 'I am going to destroy your career'... Finally your time is so consumed between family, health, publishing, teaching and research... It's five balls to juggle but no one can juggle more than three, so you choose... No to mention the wonderful lack of pay as a starting adjunct professor....

Don't completely understand why people who are supposed to be so smart put themselves in these stressful positions. It's not like it's news.

I’m a PhD student now and I plan on leaving academia as soon as I graduate.

Academia encourages people who can grind through a system, not necessarily the best.

I'm starting a PhD in Toxicology in the fall straight out of my undergraduate school. But I already know academia is not for me and I'm glad that I saw this channel because I do not know how to transfer into industry or what industry I want. Post doc doesn't seem worth it but what else is there? Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I am accepted to a PhD but before staring I already I feel I did a wrong step accepting it, my supervisor seems to me as a person who is interested in a slave labour, the other supervisor started with blaming me on my publications and finel thesis at my Master;s degree (I don't understand is it how you are supposed to be a PhD candidate !? ), I am offered a tiny salary that is stated somehow in a distorted way (emphasizing the overall budget allocated to me) in my financial support document ets. My area is IT, and I have good software development skills, though I had hard times finding a job so I applied this PhD. Please, give me some advice, does it worht doing for someone who has a possibility to get a job as software engineer ?

This is interesting to hear others experiences. In my case the advisor does not supply basic laboratory supplies and the other faculty on my graduate committe did not belive me about this. I used some alternate materials because I didnt have basic things like solvents. My advisor has also told me many times not to talk ask other lab groups outside their lab for supplies and not to discuss experiments. There is also a lot of screaming, tantrums and nasty personal remarks and never looking at my data or advising my experiments. and nobody will believe me. The university instrument room has been packed up for over a year for a planned move to another builfinh and I cant use them to do my experiments. Its costing me a lot of time and money to hang around waiting to see if these will ever be functional again. Meanwile I apply for jobs for over a year but cant find any

Exactly, I feel like I am losing myself

7:35 really spoke to me! 😳😩

So fucking glad I got chronic fatigue during my undergrad and completely changed the trajectory of my life. Otherwise would have been in the same position as these 4. Don't even know if I'd be a strong enough person to leave 😅

O remember my supervisor said: "you'll HATE your PhD"

I was not temperamentally suited to it. I'm doing transition jobs now, trying to understand what my transferable skills are

I had a two similar situations for me in my PhD programs. First I was at a Top 40 school in the south. At this institution they still required cumes or written qualifiers. On one test in particular I scored a 76/100. Which for a graduate score is not bad, on a 15pt scale its a B and on a 10pts scale, a C. I failed that test. I failed the test because out of the other 15 ppl I was testing with, so many scored high enough to skew the bell curve such that the minimum passing was an 80/100. So they HAD to fail people. There were 4 failing grades and of them mine was the highest. The next closest score to mine was 63 if I remember correctly. So I was being graded against my peers rather than on my own merits. I then decided to return to my undergrad alma mater and try to pursue a different branch of the same PhD. My PI had an off the wall idea for me to try, and I thought it sounding interesting. At this point I had already been a grad student for 4yrs and wanted to get my work done as efficiently, precisely and expediently as possible. So I dove head first into my project. Now, fast forward almost 3yrs and while I had been reading articles to use as references, as my project was on the downward slope to completion, I was actively looking for articles to use in my dissertation. What I found was not only was there a group in China that had performed and developed the EXACT method and device that I had been working on, but they had a patent...on both...IN THE USA!!! My professor either did not do his due diligence or he read about this work and forgotten that he had. In either case I would have had to go back to square one and at that point I did not think I could do 4 more years after the 7 I had already done. So I stopped.

Back in 1983 i had a Student Job in a Lab of a University. Already at that time i heart from the physicists at that Departement that there Main challenge is and will be the constant fight for funding. So i decided to go for an engineering carrier in the hightech Industrie. Looking back it was the right decision. My carrier also included to manage Phds ... ;-)

The post-doc system morphed in the late 80's into a ridiculous indentured-servitude system as academia became corporatized. Awful.

The even sadder thing is that even after tenure is awarded, even after a full professorship is attained, university administration can make your life miserable, as I can attest. As far as I can see, there is no control over university administration. Litigation is not the answer, because that can blackball you. The only solution is to walk completely or to start a second career while employed as a professor so that salary no longer matters.

Have you read 'Lord of the Flies'?

I have only a bachelors degree but I wanted to pursue academia for my love of philosophy. Looks like that’s going down the drain. I would not be able to stand for that kind of verbal abuse, I would end up killing somebody. Also… I’m new to the academic jargon like PI. What does that term stand for?

I was hospitalized for 2 days at the end of my PhD program, the Chair of my Department did not hire me back as an adjunct professor after I graduated despite that fact that my SPOT evaluations were best in department just b/c she didn't care for me much, and I struggled to even get a job after I completed 4 of the longest years of my life. Academia stinks. Period.

Damn! from the tone of voice of the speakers. Leaving academia sounds like leaving a cult...

Wow!

For my PhD at an Australian campus (humanities in my case, not science), I had an admirable supervisor, and COVID lockdowns motivated me to finish the thesis within the deadline. All this was to the good. But being obliged to deliver Zoom tutorials to a student body of whose members 60% were unable to speak, read or write English (and where some of the other students committed plagiarism, with no worse punishment than the gentlest taps on the wrist), was for me quite exceptionally soul-destroying. It took months before I saw a single dollar of my salary; wage theft is notorious at Australian universities, and has even been discussed in the American media. People have been kind enough to tell me that my lectures are interesting, enjoyable, and intelligible. Yet now that so much of Australian academia is an exercise in holding non-Anglophone students' hands - shades of the Alice in Wonderland doctrine "Everybody has won, and all must have prizes" - I think that I'm better off out of the field.

Very true. I don't know why people in the academia tolerate mistreatment and diva behaviour

Just graduated my 7-year PhD with zero publication, not even middle author ones. Spent my first 4 years writing an NIH RO1 grant with my PI and got funded with a 9th percentile. The rest of it was working on a 6-year collaboration project that didn't go anywhere, doing a small project stemming from promising preliminary data in that RO1 grant and it ended up getting cancelled by my PI because the impact was low and we already got the grant, taking over TA responsibility from a junior grad student since my PI wanted him to graduate ahead of me, working as a computational chemist with the wet-lab team that wasn't my personal project because "if you don't it, they can't publish a paper", and finally writing up my thesis and job searching. Just as brutal as my Ph.D is the job market in 2023, we want you to have experience in the industry, but we're not hiring any fresh graduates into the industry. Have to do a postdoc for now, but not going anywhere else with zero publication, so still stay with my PI.

The real reason: you’re all scientists so industry is a viable option for you. If you’re in Humanities that door is closed … unless you count being a delivery driver for Amazon. (And no, school teaching isn’t a simple swap with academia except perhaps in terms of stress).

Is it possible to get an industry job in Europe/US for people with a PhD working in academia in other countries (like China, India, Russia)? I have a good academic resume with publications in journals with an impact factor of 15-20. But I don't have any industry experience. I feel like companies won't bother with all the paperwork for visas and work permits. Is it so? Will it be easier if I do a postdoc in Europe/US and start looking for a position in industry from there?

My PhD supervisor used to say frequently ‘I can waste all of your time but you can’t waste 5mins of my time’

I meant some of the nicest and meanest people in academia.

is this related to a domain ? for example is this the case for Ph.D. in computer science, because projects in CS are interesting and usually have funds easily.

This sounds like my nursing career lol

Look into animated cells, bacteria, viruses and nano and other microscopic inner army under command , if my kidneys quit working in a highly competitive and stressful and hatred filled workplace that's what i would think was happening

I've finished phd and 2 years inti postdoc. Tr3ated like a paper mill and never a discussion about whats my future ljke. The worst feeling is when ur PI is not an expert in the field and gives stupid corrections to your manuscript. I am waiting to out of thus S**hole asap

It must be so frustrating watching Civil engineers, lawyers and medical doctors getting paid great money with their carreers, while you used so much time in Academia.. that is litterary worth little in the open market. 😢

Studying moves the economy

What was their field of study?

It’s a CULT especially when your supervisor is narcissist and play a victim like whatever you did is for your degree and has zero benefits to them. So it’s your PhD (meaning I’ve got mine not my biz anymore 😊)

Toxic coworkers, everyone's got an inferiority-superiority complex in academia

This topic is...well...academic

Look at that. Phd = poor, helpless, desperate. No one will live a fulfilling life unless working as an entrepreneur or network marketer.

What is a "PI?"

People like you MUST form an alternative higher education system. Please.

The root problem is that people derive joy from putting things together, but academia is all about taking things apart until all that remains are colliding particles--The path to hell.

Yelling at you, saying nasty things to you, toxic culture (I thought “progressive educators” are supposed to be tolerant), lack of support, stress related illnesses. I’m a 65 year old man and have spent years in the trenches in the private sector, mostly manufacturing. Welcome to my world!!!

Unless you’re on to something very interesting from your experiments get out

You should introduce the panel before blabbing your personal view on the subject, Sir.

Academia isn't toxic. It just isn't for everyone. Or they got the bad end of the stick & decided to leave.

None of you were cut out for the academy. That was your first mistake. You don't have thick enough skin nor a strong enough passion. You did not have a vision for your career. It's not really that important a thing as you make it out to be. It's just a job. That's all. Successful academics love the competition, thrive on the challenges, and succeed because they were built just for the experience. People like you, don't. You were all mediocre academics who were not driving your discipline forward. You were trying to fit in rather than being a shining star, and there are way too many of those types at every college. You chose the wrong profession and you figured it out. Bravo. Not everyone can be great at being a professor. Thanks for getting out before ruining the college experience for whatever students you may have taught.

If I could afford it, I'd leave my community college today. Why? As a faculty member, I had to file a restraining order against a student who harassed me; all of my support at the college immediately disappeared when I was forced to do this. I found out that he had harassed other faculty members and had a number of restraining orders against him in my town and surrounding cities. Another reason? Constantly shifting bosses which causes me constant stress. I've had 9 deans in 14 years. Exhausting. The biggest reason? As we moved toward the first wave of COVID, students seemed less and less interested in doing the work. Many were not prepared by our weak high school system. After the pandemic hit, there was a huge upturn in mental health issues and 80% of my students just don't do the work. This article from The Chronicle of Higher Ed article describes it better than I can: www.chronicle.com/article/a-stunning-level-of-student-disconnection Because I support myself and pay my own mortgage, I can't afford to quit. I have 7 years to retirement. I hope that things improve even just a tiny bit so I can feel less trapped. Good luck all.