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1950's EXPERIMENTAL APFSDS vs T-54 | M46 vs T-54 | 90mm T82E23 Armour Piercing SImulation 

SY Simulations
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During the 1950's, experimental APFSDS projectiles were developed for the M46's 90mm M3A1 cannon. A likely threat at the time was the Soviet T-54, with this simulation showing how the prototype T82E23 APFSDS would fair against the T-54's upper plate.
The T82E23 was one of the first armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot projectiles, which used a sub-calibre hardened steel penetrator. This increased the penetrator of the round, reduced its drag, and improved its range over standard projectiles. For comparison, the highest penetrating standard rounds of the 90mm M3A1 were the T33 AP and M304 HVAP, which could both penetrate ~80mm RHA @60° at point blank range -the APFSDS can penetrate ~95mm under the same conditions.
I dont know for certain, but I would speculate that these APFSDS rounds did not enter service due to the HEAT-FS projectiles being developed at a similar time, which could penetrate more than 150mm RHA @60° (a much greater improvement than the APFSDS).
About the simulation:
The body is hardened steel, the tail is aluminium, the T-54 plate is 300BHN RHA (source: Tankograd), the witness plate is 2mm Aluminium spaced 6" from the armour, to replicate the Protection Ballistic Limit penetration criteria listed in the reference image: preview.redd.i...
Amazing thumbnail art from: Degit22 sketchfab.com/...

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5 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 130   
@SYsimulations
@SYsimulations 2 года назад
This is one of the earliest anti-tank APFSDS rounds I'm aware of but please let me know if there any others with sufficient information :) (I know about german ww2 "arrow shells" and smoothbore artillery versions but the information is very scarce...wouldn't be surprised if the russians had early prototypes as well)
@LazyLifeIFreak
@LazyLifeIFreak 2 года назад
The earliest APDS(!) round I know of was fired from the 17 pounder but that's a different kettle of fish I think.
@Sh-epard
@Sh-epard 2 года назад
Probably this is the earliest, another example was the one used on the T95E1 (with a 90mm smoothbore, i think there are infos on one of the Hunnicutt books for that).
@mush0847
@mush0847 2 года назад
Could you try this structure @ 9.10 and see how AP shells would react. Or even other shell types. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-k6g9Yv8LwOU.html
@michaelvigil5321
@michaelvigil5321 2 года назад
Idk about earliest but the tiny power of the 60mm APFSDS on the AUBL 74 HVG
@funkx6438
@funkx6438 Год назад
There was the German Röchlinggeschoss, that is a "Mortar/Artillery" Variant and the Peenemünde Pfeilgeschoss, that one was used for the K3, K5 and 15cm Feldhaubitze. The Peenemünde Pfeilgeschoss was the ground work for the Later (60s) Rheinmetall-Ferngeschoss. Look in your Email I send you data of it.
@freedomisntfreeffs
@freedomisntfreeffs 2 года назад
Nice implementation of the witness shield. It gave a good understanding of the speed and force of the spalling on the inside.
@nomcognom2332
@nomcognom2332 2 года назад
Wow, the armour managed to stop a shot from 100 m.
@rubberbandman200
@rubberbandman200 2 года назад
Has some spalling. Potentially deadly
@markcorrigan3930
@markcorrigan3930 2 года назад
No
@WalletWorrier
@WalletWorrier 2 года назад
Spoiler alert!
@zeffy._440
@zeffy._440 2 года назад
@@rubberbandman200 A little bit of spalling is unlikely to be lethal and when we consider that tanks don't fight within 100m of eachother in real life then this round would not have been very good.
@rubberbandman200
@rubberbandman200 2 года назад
@@zeffy._440 we arnt talking about 500m here. The video was of 100m and yes that smalling would absolutely kill you if it hits you anywhere above your legs. Even a leg hit might cause you to bleed out. 100 percent take you out of the fight. You also have to put into account that a follow up shot would take place in under 10 seconds
@adam346
@adam346 Год назад
I cannot imagine the sound of a non-penetrating shot on a front plate like that... the masses, energy and forces involved boggle the mind.
@KorianHUN
@KorianHUN Год назад
If the steel was of a lower quality, it could have been a penetration, seems like it was really close. Of course any horizontal angle will increase the survival chance but any hit coming from an angle over 0° will decrease the effective angle.
@SicilianSSFR
@SicilianSSFR 2 года назад
Very nice to see some 90mm on t55 action! IIRC there where some Yugoslav tests where the heat-fs from patton tanks would likely ricochet off of the T-55's UFP
@jintsuubest9331
@jintsuubest9331 2 года назад
It is the fuse technology back then. They can fail to fire when impact at steel armor of 50 degree or higher. Variation of such problem exist for pretty much all scj warhead of both side for about 2 decades.
@andrewmandrona7891
@andrewmandrona7891 2 года назад
Speaking of other kinetic rounds, can we see M332 vs. T-54 upper plate? (Or anything else) That was one of the last HVAP rounds seriously developed and it had extreme performance. According to test reports it should be able to penetrate the plate at extremely close range, like you mentioned.
@marksman158
@marksman158 2 года назад
m332 was great hvap for m3a1, but dont know why us army give up the 90mm apfsds
@warellis
@warellis 2 года назад
@@marksman158 Probably because HEAT shells were becoming more reliable.
@m1a1abramstank49
@m1a1abramstank49 2 года назад
@@marksman158 APFSDS probably wasn’t too reliable by that time compared to HEAT
@ivanmonahhov2314
@ivanmonahhov2314 Год назад
@@m1a1abramstank49 the problem was that could hit anything with it
@m1a1abramstank49
@m1a1abramstank49 Год назад
@@ivanmonahhov2314 So you reiterated what I said
@SilencedMi5
@SilencedMi5 2 года назад
Awesome video!! I like that you find some obscure but interesting rounds to test! Suggestion: DShK 12.7×108mm AP vs. BMD-4 UFP (20mm ABT-102, 62°) perhaps at 200m.
@xilano
@xilano 2 года назад
Damn that is a wide APFSDS projectile, looks more like a finger than a dart. Clearly some lessons were learned from the experiment.
@user-yc1xe1pd1f
@user-yc1xe1pd1f 2 года назад
Driver: 🚙 - Ah just a scratch, let’s keep going.
@user-xp5df5yt7j
@user-xp5df5yt7j 2 года назад
Driver: Commander, fuck this Pindos!
@sullafelix4885
@sullafelix4885 2 года назад
Very nice simulation. I was wondering if you could do a simulation of the last and probably most powerful full caliber rounds fielded, the US M358 for the M58 120mm gun as used on the M103 heavy tank. Which supposedly (along with the British FV214 Conqueror) were built specifically to counter to perceived threat of the heavy Soviet IS-3 tanks.
@jacobs4545
@jacobs4545 Год назад
I think the W23s had a bit more punch but thats just my opinion
@NikoBellic-hg4un
@NikoBellic-hg4un 2 года назад
Can you make king tiger hull vs 128mm pzgr 43? Strongest hull vs strongest anti tank round of ww2.
@tokencivilian8507
@tokencivilian8507 2 года назад
Great stuff, as always SY.
@handsomeivan1980
@handsomeivan1980 2 года назад
Holy shit, I didn't think it'd stop it, especially from that range
@du_nut_tuch_me4230
@du_nut_tuch_me4230 5 месяцев назад
The armor may have stopped the dart, but it wouldn't be enough to stop that very loud bang around the entirety of the tank that will cause you almost never-ending tinnitus (not service related ofc)
@volodymyr3169
@volodymyr3169 Год назад
would be interesting to see a perturbation of initial conditions study. You newer know the velocity and angle exactly, maybe small changes would lead to penetration
@xapocotacox
@xapocotacox 2 года назад
I don’t think some people really understand what spalling is and and how fast it’s moving lmao
@djohn4904
@djohn4904 2 года назад
Also, try multiple shots at same place, including shell wreckage, if possible
@Wien1938
@Wien1938 2 года назад
It would be nice if the HEAT rounds could be modelled against the T-54 plate.
@s.e.a.lthefurious8701
@s.e.a.lthefurious8701 2 года назад
Day three asking for Char B1 bis 47mm and 75mm vs Pz. IV E
@Anlushac11
@Anlushac11 2 года назад
I am really really really surprised that a APFSDS projectile going 4400fps, weighing 2.9lbs, and only traveling 100m failed to penetrate a 100mm thick armor plate sloped at 60 deg.
@mcnuffin1208
@mcnuffin1208 Год назад
I think this counts as a significant emotional event
@francoisdavel1786
@francoisdavel1786 Год назад
I see the T-54 is being sent to Ukraine. Please model the Bradley 25mm APFSDS, M1, Leopard, and Challenger 2 against the T-54/55
@jintsuubest9331
@jintsuubest9331 2 года назад
Yet Russian 100mm steel rod can do quite a number in return. I am genuinely curious why US and nato did not continue to experiment with it more extensively.
@peasant8246
@peasant8246 2 года назад
Until the advent of composite armour arrays the HEATFS shells were more than sufficient against any contemporary opponent.
@johnathancooper3897
@johnathancooper3897 2 года назад
Damn so the 120mm plate on the 1947 variant would have stopped it
@Internetbutthurt
@Internetbutthurt Год назад
This one basically stopped it...certainly at battlefield ranges.
@jwilly2607
@jwilly2607 2 года назад
Suggestions: French pre-1940 Edgar Brandt company (Henry Mohaupt, lead warhead designer) HEAT ordnance--50mm rifle grenade, 80mm "rifle" grenade, 75mm round for Mle 1897 rifled cannon German WWII infantry HEAT devices--adhesive-attach HHL-1, magnetic-attach HHL-3 German WWII 7.5cm HEAT rounds--HL, HL/A, HL/B, HL/C British WWII #68 HEAT rifle grenade
@patrickbateman4148
@patrickbateman4148 2 года назад
Can you do a video about Rheinmetalls new 130mm
@pioneer_1148
@pioneer_1148 Год назад
I know this is an early round and was fired from a relatively small cannon but I'm still surprised it couldn't go through 200mm.
@wawaweewa9159
@wawaweewa9159 2 года назад
Can you do a test with a apfsds that has a mini shape charge standoff tip and see how much better it does against HERA ?
@djohn4904
@djohn4904 2 года назад
Please do a vid modeling modern shell thru like ten 1940-50 era tanks from the side front ect
@seanmurphy7011
@seanmurphy7011 2 года назад
Can you do the aforementioned HEAT-FS round for comparison?
@tunakaankarabacak1110
@tunakaankarabacak1110 Год назад
Can u make a vid about the thing in front of the M1 abrams that was used to push over cars and debrish like how efective it was agains RPG heat rounds
@enriquejosegaleanotalavera5497
@enriquejosegaleanotalavera5497 2 года назад
It could be cool if you put behind the armour plate the thickness of human skin to see the damage of the little pellets when projectile doesn't penetrated at all the armour plate. :)
@kimjanek646
@kimjanek646 2 года назад
Feels like 90mm APCR could do the same 😄
@DaReaperZ
@DaReaperZ 2 года назад
Would be cool to see the Swedish 37mm APDS fired at some target.
@jaydenkerr912
@jaydenkerr912 Год назад
Can you do tiger 2 vs t54s armour or t54 vs tiger 2s armour
@DamplyDoo
@DamplyDoo 2 года назад
So this round kinda looks like a thumb, instead of a dart? 🤔
@m.streicher8286
@m.streicher8286 2 года назад
Kinda disappointing until I realized it's a 90mm projectile. We're all used to seeing 105 and 120mm
@EchoSixMike
@EchoSixMike 2 года назад
Would a cored round like early Sov APDSFS penetrate the plate under same conditions?
@shamooguy
@shamooguy 2 года назад
why are the design problems with this round that cause it to have such poor (relative to modern apfsds) penetrating power? is it the shape? materials? insufficient velocity?
@nuraly78
@nuraly78 2 года назад
Rifled canon generally turns some of kinetic energy to rotational movement. This rotation creates aerodynamic drag, thut further decreases energy of the projectile
@ghoti221
@ghoti221 2 года назад
In addition, length -- longer penetrating rod means you have more stuff to bull your way through the armour. And modern sabot uses tungsten and other extremely dense materials/alloys for the penetrator, so you're carrying more energy into the target in the first place. In other words, it is the shape, materials and insufficient velocity. :)
@SYsimulations
@SYsimulations 2 года назад
Like others have said, its a few things, but the largest factors are the material and it's diameter (and therefore mass & velocity); its made of hardened steel, which is ~7800kg/m3 whereas modern apfsds rounds are ~18500kg/m3 (tungsten or DU) while being less brittle as well. The diameter is 40mm, from a 90mm gun, whereas modern apfsds rounds are ~25-35mm out of 120-125mm guns, giving higher velocities, less drag, and increased penetration due to the energy being focused on a smaller point
@joshuawilson8371
@joshuawilson8371 2 года назад
do m48 patton heat fs and m82 capped against t -55 lower plate
@serahshevelan3263
@serahshevelan3263 2 года назад
How did firing from a smooth or rifled gun change the characteristics of early apfsds? Did the spin from a rifle lower the penetration?
@SYsimulations
@SYsimulations 2 года назад
A rifled gun means a lower muzzle velocity as the rifling grooves cause resistance and drag, wasting energy. This therefore means lower penetration
@serahshevelan3263
@serahshevelan3263 2 года назад
@@SYsimulations I see, I figured it might lower the accuracy with spinning a fin projectile but I didn't think about rifling resistance slowing the round down. Thanks 👍
@khahinmetameta7826
@khahinmetameta7826 2 года назад
There's a alternate history novel when the korean war went hot called hot war without a doubt the M46 Patton and centurion 1 would out done by T54
@diegotarses9460
@diegotarses9460 Год назад
This is why the english developed the 105mm L7A1.
@ignacio3154
@ignacio3154 2 года назад
¿Is it posible destroy a tiger 2 with the british APDS shot SV Mk.1?
@kollok3740
@kollok3740 Год назад
will I survive if I am behind that??
@joannezupan4175
@joannezupan4175 Год назад
How about a 75mm Panther round vs. JS 2 armour?
@thezig2078
@thezig2078 Год назад
Not a scratch
@warellis
@warellis 2 года назад
I wonder if a 105mm version of this could've penetrated? Because I suspect 90mm was too small by then.
@darnit1944
@darnit1944 2 года назад
What 105mm? The L7?
@warellis
@warellis 2 года назад
@@darnit1944 Yes
@SYsimulations
@SYsimulations 2 года назад
The L7 could penetrate this armour even with APDS
@warellis
@warellis 2 года назад
@@SYsimulations And presumably an APFSDS 105mm round, as shown by the 1970s, would've done better than APDS. Which makes me wonder why attempts to refine this round weren't done as early as possible.
@francoisassatlien8642
@francoisassatlien8642 Год назад
@@warellis the l7s best apds could pen over 303mm.
@derrickstorm6976
@derrickstorm6976 2 года назад
I thought T-54 had 120mm armor, it doesn't?
@savagestuff2040
@savagestuff2040 2 года назад
The 1947 version did
@nuraly78
@nuraly78 2 года назад
@@savagestuff2040 some T-54As also used 1947 version's refurbished hull.
@boshi_coyo
@boshi_coyo 2 года назад
what if a tank had wavy armor but also sloped?
@berserkerpride
@berserkerpride Год назад
Well it would make parts of the slope flatter and parts more sloped depending what part got hit. So it would make a penetration more of a 50/50 proposition.
@meskalin64
@meskalin64 2 года назад
Whats the groves for on that last image of apfsds?
@SYsimulations
@SYsimulations 2 года назад
Its where the sabot grips to during firing
@meskalin64
@meskalin64 2 года назад
@@SYsimulations Oh yeah that makes sense. Tnx!
@rkadi6540
@rkadi6540 2 года назад
Now do in reverse, m46 getting shot by t54
@pimmelschilz9728
@pimmelschilz9728 2 года назад
Still loos like some very unpleasant spalling into the fighting compartment.
@Rider-lo9vt
@Rider-lo9vt Год назад
It's surprising how some tankies assert that those rounds will do little to no damage to the driver. That shrapnel will obviously kill or seriously injure the driver, instantly incapacitating it, and eventually maiming it.
@DuyLe-yc7zd
@DuyLe-yc7zd 7 месяцев назад
The witness plate:🗿
@cristsan4171
@cristsan4171 2 года назад
"As you can see, Pershing cannot defeat T-34-85 bigger blyat"
@WaukWarrior360
@WaukWarrior360 2 года назад
You mean M46 Patton and T-54?
@nemo5335
@nemo5335 Год назад
dorks on the internet malign it 60 years later but the T55 was the best tank in the world for quite some time.
@user-xs9no8uc1x
@user-xs9no8uc1x 2 года назад
100 м ?.......(((
@user-xp5df5yt7j
@user-xp5df5yt7j 2 года назад
тихо ехал...
@SYsimulations
@SYsimulations 2 года назад
Wouldn't have been interesting if it was any further away
@TuAFFalcon
@TuAFFalcon 2 года назад
Can you do Atlatl vs. Mammoth?
@nhatpham2206
@nhatpham2206 2 года назад
Stalinium
@nehalemxtv5331
@nehalemxtv5331 2 года назад
Test russian grid on turret roof against Javelin
@grandvoyage816
@grandvoyage816 2 года назад
Yes t54 was not so shit like many say this!
@LURKTec
@LURKTec 2 года назад
Oh man that is some AWFUL performance, no wonder it stayed experimental
@armymanaka360
@armymanaka360 2 года назад
War thunder now has advanced armour Penetration tests,you are no longer needed
@haguroIJN-myokoclass-No.4-1929
@haguroIJN-myokoclass-No.4-1929 2 года назад
貫徹力に乏しいですね
@inhcaominhpham9512
@inhcaominhpham9512 Год назад
Good morning…from Viet Nam. This is how Viet Nam win the war.
@0kisshun0
@0kisshun0 2 года назад
t-54: huhhh that was close... but no cigar for you m46
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