I love how Zain says he thinks Pika sucks even though he personally loses to Axe. The humility and honesty is impressive. He says he's going to prove it to Blur (presumably by beating Axe) showing that he has confidence in himself rather than using any excuse as a crutch.
Completely the opposite of Leffen who just bitches about match ups everytime he loses. The fact he thinks puff beats fox only because HBox shat on him is honestly the dumbest worst take I've ever heard in the history of melee.
@@Figgy20000 I dont even main fox but Leffen is usually right on the nail with fox vs puff/marth especially from a mental/tournament game aspect. IDK why so many people take it that way.
@@yobobby9 If by mental aspect you mean he gets tiltied because HBox fucks him up the ass every time they play sure. Lets not forget Armadas insane winning record against him tho. Leffen just can't accept that Hungrybox was always a better player than he was. Same as he still can't accept Zain is a much better player and changing characters is never going to fix that fact.
I feel like a case could be made for it, DK has alright mobility and cargo throw shenanigans (he's also less commonly used than gdorf so the matchup unfamiliarity might give him an edge, not sure if that should influence tier placement or not though)
Old thread but I play a lot of ganon and DK is better against spacies which should have a huge bearing on tier lists IMO. Ganon is better against floaties though
@@peytonwinstead3412 DK and Ganon are both ass vs spacies and sheik. They're both generally better against floaties, Ganon is more explored whereas DK is better on a few more stages like Stadium and FD (Specific MUs). DK is better at edgeguarding and Ganon hits harder, they're quite comparable, but DK's mobility and better recovery gives him the edge, he's just less popular. Also Ganon is significantly easier to chaingrab than DK, so that kinda matters too.
We love your skits, but this is sick af to see a tier list from you! Keep doing the skits for sure, but I'm really interested in seeing more analysis videos from you! 😃
i can. i have had sit down conversations with several players, such as zain. i can call him zain cuz its his real name and we're cool like that, but its whatevs :P
I think it's funny how Roy and Marth's positions are pretty much flipped in Ultimate. It kind of shows how both games are played; Melee is about precise gameplay and long combos (which is sick) and Ultimate is just about running at people and beating the shit out of them (which is also sick)
Not really, he says pikachu loses to Marth. (Yet he loses consistently to axe) I can confirm as a pikachu main, Marth and peach are not fun and seem unfair.
You’re a smart guy Zain, even watching mango I see moments where he needs so much practice, and I’m a huge fan of his and falco main myself. I second Marth because it feels like an art to play him. But you outplay even what I can imagine with him.
Idk... I feel like I'm in the minority with this opinion, but I reallllly enjoy tier lists and even though lots of people get shit on for doing too many, I honestly wish MORE (especially very specific/niche) tier lists were made haha. For example, it's already doe decently often, but I think a matchup tier list against various characters (especially Marth) is always informative. What I'd really like to see though are much more specific tier lists (especially ones that only Zain specifically can answer), such as ranking off of "best secondary for a Marth main," "characters easiest to pick up with Marth experience," stage rankings (with analysis) for each matchup, etc.
i dont think pikachu loses to marth, never, and capitan falcon, sheik, fox and falco beat marth, i know it because i m a marth player, the problem that i see here is that zain based this in his results and not in the reality
good list. if sheiks start stepping up and winning big tourneys maybe i'll believe she's REALLY good (or maybe not cuz Wizzy and Armada won super majors with Falcon and Peach but those characters still aren't top tier). but i think she's in the tier with Falcon and Peach, cuz Wizzy and Armada proved those characters can solo win super majors, and, in theory, Sheik could too, but it just hasn't happened
It's really weird how it hasn't happened yet considering Pikachu has even won a Major. I guess part of the issue is that the 2 best Sheik players, being M2K and Plup, both have a lot of good secondaries so they can just swap in a secondary in a bad match up. Would love to see solo Sheik a Major though
M2K puts Marth at 4th best, and he's been playing Marth for a long time. I'm not sure what to think at this point. I think the top 4 are all very well balanced. But each are good in their own way. Seriously how did Sakuri make such a well balanced game in 13 months?
@@Yvs8962 everyone: spacies lose to marth but its pretty close, fox vs marth on FD is unreasonable but thats it really, pretty close matchup, 55-45 maybe spacie mains on twitter: 60-40 WORSE THAN FOX PUFF (WHICH IS EVEN IN TOURNEY BTW) IM DUAL MAINING FOX GANON CUZ SPACIES CANT DO IT everyone: get good spacies: NO
@@crooker23 Okay thats horseshit, “Everyone” does not/has not openly admitted Marth beats Fox until maybe very recently, ONLY because Zain said it himself. When it was spacie mains saying it y’all wouldnt even let them just speak honestly and would just bitch them out and dogpile them for talking about the game.Thats the point of my comment. Even then youll only concede slightly losing 55:45 when even Zain says they lose more significantly and they clearly do. Marth has been robbing spacies off hella low effort shit since the beginning of time, and yet people who have never played the MU from a spacie perspective gonna act like they know what theyre talking about and spacie players are full of shit when they talk about the MU 2. No one is tryna pick up Ganon for any MU. 3. No one thinks Fox loses to Puff, the most people complain about her is that shes boring and non interactive, and ALL mains do that. 4. Disingenuous as hell acting like everyone is civil with the conversation about the MU until spacie mains throw tantrums about it, thats complete BS. Leffen literally can’t talk openly and honestly about meta analyses of the MU without constantly being shit on and called a scrub. Literally just talking about meta and high level interactions that make the MU hard, totally reasonable, knowledgable, and legitimate statements get him dogpiled just for making the blasphemous claim that Fox loses a MU. Also you openly admit the MU is unrealistic on FD. How tf can a character possess a virtually guaranteed free game + momentum kill in every set, but the idea that this character might hard win the MU is ridiculous to you? Do you not realize how busted that alone is? Neither spacie possesses an equivalent CP, Marth beats them on every other stage as well, just the worst on FD, which is really what tips the MU from slightly losing to actually bad territory.
it changes once new punish options get realized and implemented. Remember tier charts are based off tournament results not just the character in general. If people were to place higher in a tournament with a low/medium tier they'll be respected more as a character. That's what I think at least, correct me if I'm wrong^^
players improve and so do strategies. The melee meta changes slower than a patch based fighter like Ultimate does, but over the course of years it will change of course. The same applies to games like 3rd strike, Marvel 2, and any other classic Fighter. Unless there's a top 1 or tier 0 character it takes a while for a meta to stale out. Melee runs so deep it'll be ages before this game days
Its also just hella fun to talk about the melee meta, everyone sees it slightly different and seeing tier lists from top players gives an insight as to how each sees the game
I feel like the Eh and Sucks tiers are all wrong. There really isnt that big a difference between mario and doc, DK is placed absurdly high just for his good spacies punishgame, and younglink has more to offer than mid Sucks tier imo. What stands out to me the most is DK though, feels overrated.
Marth *does* beat Falcon though. The consensus on that has shifted for a while. Shiek is still debatable though. The way Spark does against Zain seems like pretty hard proof it’s still even too, and historically it checks out.
I agree with falco being really good, but he's really hard and gets comboed/cheesed pretty hard so that's probs the reason we don't see as much falco rep
I'mma say it rn, puff is even with Marth. Most puffs just don't actually use melee's movement and spam bair.. Seriously, force a spacie to play puff and you will see puff do some crazy things. Mang0 can EASILY prove this.
You dont think samus is worse vs puff than pikachu? I think puff counters a lot of samus's strengths, but i also think that puff seems to kinda dance on pikachu without fear of retribution.
My hot take is that G&W easily has the most untapped potential out of all of the low tiers, I remember there was a nasty G&W in the Toledo area who always did pretty well
I agree, I sometimes wonder how good he would be if you could L-cancel his aerials and if his shield actually worked. Considering he has chain grabs on Spacies and Falcon, and the fact that his neutral air is massive, I feel like he could be among the weirdos on this list at the very least. It's just sad that he was probably rushed during development
@@drakejoshofficialyoutubech5569 as much purity as there is to Melee being unchanged for 20 years, a Melee+ that buffs some low tier characters with obvious fixes (like for Roy and Game&Watch) seems like it would be a no-downsides improvement to the health of the game. Nobody would get worse but some new characters could be in the mix
There is no way in hell puff beats Falcon, that matchup is at best 50-50. Mad respect to Zain for not underrating his own character or overrating a character like Pikachu that he consistently loses to though.
why do ppl keep ranking YL over link... ask anyone in the link/YL discord and they will say link is better in nearly every matchup except super floaties.
I feel thank Link is more of a gimmick than YL, once you get passed his wall hes very slow and semi fast faller combo food. VS Young Link who has better camping/time out potential with his faster movement and jump squat especially he seems more threating. Just that YL struggles OOS in some MUs and getting people out of CC percent.