28c3: The coming war on general computation

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Cory Doctorow: The coming war on general computation
The copyright war was just the beginning
The last 20 years of Internet policy have been dominated by the copyright war, but the war turns out only to have been a skirmish. The coming century will be dominated by war against the general purpose computer, and the stakes are the freedom, fortune and privacy of the entire human race.
The problem is twofold: first, there is no known general-purpose computer that can execute all the programs we can think of except the naughty ones; second, general-purpose computers have replaced every other device in our world. There are no airplanes, only computers that fly. There are no cars, only computers we sit in. There are no hearing aids, only computers we put in our ears. There are no 3D printers, only computers that drive peripherals. There are no radios, only computers with fast ADCs and DACs and phased-array antennas. Consequently anything you do to "secure" anything with a computer in it ends up undermining the capabilities and security of every other corner of modern human society.
And general purpose computers can cause harm -- whether it's printing out AR15 components, causing mid-air collisions, or snarling traffic. So the number of parties with legitimate grievances against computers are going to continue to multiply, as will the cries to regulate PCs.
The primary regulatory impulse is to use combinations of code-signing and other "trust" mechanisms to create computers that run programs that users can't inspect or terminate, that run without users' consent or knowledge, and that run even when users don't want them to.
The upshot: a world of ubiquitous malware, where everything we do to make things better only makes it worse, where the tools of liberation become tools of oppression.
Our duty and challenge is to devise systems for mitigating the harm of general purpose computing without recourse to spyware, first to keep ourselves safe, and second to keep computers safe from the regulatory impulse.
Transcript: github.com/jwi... (CC-BY by Joshua Wise)
SRT file with detailed timings (created automatically by RU-vid) gist.github.co...

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21 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 259

@123Bosniak 7 лет назад

In Lollipop 2.0, you'll get to turn the alarm off, and the red bar is also cool

@blakebudos7022 3 года назад

Love you

@hope6840 2 года назад

OK GOOGLE

@TheFirstSSJ 2 года назад

OK GOOGLE

@hope6840 2 года назад

SET A TIMER FOR TWO MINUTES

@Hyperlink1337 2 года назад

OK GOOGLE

@yareyaredazeyareyaredaze4207 7 лет назад

Wow good taste Sam

@wangchung_ 3 года назад

yes

@MrJason005 3 года назад

It sends a chill down my spine on how prophetic this was. Here we are, in 2020, with Apple releasing new Macs that don't allow you to run any other operating system besides MacOS. And if you try and run any of your own binaries inside MacOS, they must be Signed and Approved by Apple, otherwise it's going to be hell to run them. Stallman was right.

@Praisethesunson 10 месяцев назад

It is very disappointing how right this guy ended up being

@motionthings 19 дней назад

Google Asahi Linux

@poika22 Год назад

I remember seeing this 10 years ago and thinking "well, that's something to keep in mind". It didn't seem too relevant yet, or that inevitable. Now it's already too late.

@futsk01 19 дней назад

It was always too late. These decisions are not made by the electorate.

@dimsim-youtube 17 дней назад

what is?

@wizaaeed 4 дня назад

@@dimsim-youtube The fact that you're in a mass surveillance hamster wheel

@dimsim-youtube 3 дня назад

@@wizaaeed pretended ignorance ;-)

@monetize_this8330 5 лет назад

I had a piece of software in the 1980s that required authentication by using a wierd lens plus key word from the manual, then key it into the computer before the game would load. Used it only once, and never bought their software again. Until computer hardware is (eventually) open-source, we won't truly own our tech stuff.

@innovationsanonymous8841 17 дней назад

Jeez I hope we get that timeline where everyone can rig up sentient AIs from salvaged TV remotes. And also IP/HAM

@treehome 12 лет назад

What he talks about starting at 45:40 is what the "Ghost In The Shell" tv series meant when they used the phrase "standalone complex".

@MichaelFinkenthei 13 лет назад

Is there going to be a written version of this talk in the nearer future? Frankly, I think this is one of the most important talks given so far in the 21 century, right at a turning point in time. So publish largely, please!

@ΔημητρηςΜπουκλας-ι6μ Год назад

I listen to this whenever I do the dishes so I can memorize it

@Jarymut 7 лет назад

It's sad that 6 years later we still have the same problems.

@two_horus7337 Год назад

Another 6 years, still the same.

@shallex5744 9 месяцев назад

you think our problems are gonna be solved that quickly?

@snerttt 6 месяцев назад

I wish we had the same problems as we did then lmao. Hold on guys my BMW is asking for money so I can heat the seats brb.

@boscorner Месяц назад

Now we got subscription printers. Subscription everything.

@a_clapham 5 лет назад

Watching this in 2019. Many questions raised in this video really provide the answers we need today. Like companies such as Apple having monopoly over iOS and not letting people install software or remove software as they wish. There is no way to change default apps such as Safari, maps and mail etc. Recently uBlock origin has been removed from Google chrome and Microsoft app stores.

@JobvanderZwan 12 лет назад

"My wife used to play Quake for England" I think this is the first time in my life I have felt status envy.

@gabe135 7 лет назад

t h a n k y o u s a m

@David-ck3gv Год назад

You've been assigned 10 hours of genital torture Got it! 👍🏻

@deethanyter7324 4 года назад

"my computer runs funny and--* *thunderous applause*

@BulletMagnet83 12 лет назад

Suddenly, my obsession with vintage/obsolete computer systems isn't seeming quite so bad ;-) Not too sure I like the way things are going - having grown up in a certain age of computing, I do very much like to own the hardware I buy, and run precisely what I choose on the bastard!

@poika22 Год назад

That's cute and all, but what about when those stop being compatible with the rest of the world? What happens when to work, to be able to purchase things online, pay bills, file taxes etc. you need an APPROVED system? Being able to Liero in your basement gets old quickly if you're starving or freezing to death. Hell, we're not that far away from grocery stores stopping to accept cash. It's already common for small businesses. I would not be shocked if in my lifetime I would be required to set up some smart phone app to buy milk. Take a guess whether that software is going to be available for general purpose computers.

@alltkaos 12 лет назад

This will become reality as soon as THE CLOUD is in full effect. No device will run its own software, and the companies will have total control.

@NonTwinBrothers 2 года назад

You're amazing at predictions

@roymarshall_ Год назад

Yeah, pretty much

@snerttt 6 месяцев назад

2024: almost no smartphones have SD card slots anymore, and all of them offer cloud subscriptions.

@jimle22 2 месяца назад

It is 2024 now and the Cloud is fully functional and you will own nothing but be happy?

@jimviau327 20 дней назад

@jimle22 - As far as happiness is concerned, that is a no-brainer, it will never be absolute. As for not owning nothing, that is an almost certainty.

@ms767210 12 лет назад

I don't know if I'm grasping this right but isn't the push for cloud computing and dumbed down appliances that access the cloud already implementing what he's warning against?

@shallex5744 9 месяцев назад

there is no such thing as a cloud, other than the one that exists in the minds of people who use that term

@JS-jr1fo 9 месяцев назад

@@shallex5744there absolutely is such a thing as cloud computing

@tommyb.6064 3 года назад

Is there such a device we can connect "dual microphone setup" to it which will avoid comb-filtering as the speaker moves towards one or another microphone? Am I the only one to notice it? Comb filtering is the effect of hearing or capturing a single sound source from two different position where positions changes duuring use / or vice viersa. (two speakers one aside another and you moving cause the same effect, mostly noticeable in the high frequency)

@gulllars 12 лет назад

Liked and added to playlist of great talks and panels :) I've heard OF Doctorow before, but never heard him talk. It seems i will have to go through some hours of youtube clips of him in the comming weeks/months.

@mrflamewars 4 года назад

Does he mention John Deere anywhere in this video? Currently watching but I want to make sure this is mentioned. JD's "You can't repair this yourself because copyright" cack is abominable.

@JodyBruchon 2 года назад

No, because this video is from 2011 and John Deere's bad behavior hadn't set in yet.

@Khift Год назад

Given the context of Intel ME and Microsoft Pluton, this is actually quite chilling. A very prophetic speech, and in the worst possible way unfortunately.

@garouHH 13 лет назад

@CreatorsInCreation Being a software developer I've got to ask: Huh? What do you mean by "energy"?

@NonTwinBrothers 2 года назад

*_R E D_*

@scotthenry111 12 лет назад

@ms767210 Yup. Cloud computing is a key component of many future business models that have any relation to IT. It is one way to maintain control over content with minimal consumer backlash.

@benderman1157 2 года назад

lmao and 10 years later your still right haha

@user-me7hx8zf9y 2 года назад

@@benderman1157 haha

@koya25 12 лет назад

This was a GREAT listen. Thanks

@Exploder11 12 лет назад

What about old style computers, which have the program physically designed into the architecture? No software, and runs only one thing.

@ErictakesAll 2 года назад

This is very accurate when it comes to the new windows. It’s like they are trying to be ios

@boscorner Месяц назад

And it keeps getting worse and worse

@TalsBadKidney 18 дней назад

Whoever that woman was who asked about general von neumann machines.... she was right. we are starting to see purpose-made asics all over the place for crypto mining and later for ai transformers... also the copilot-ai pcs are really not okay

@riveravaldez 12 лет назад

Simple like that. I'm already in kinda of a personal campaign doing all my friends and family try and change to the more convenient GNU/Linux distro in each case. I know it's a boring job, but I think it's an indispensable one in order to build a better, free society.

@hyne1234 9 дней назад

thanks sammie really gets the the core of what im angry about 80% of the time im having computer troubles. everything thats wrong with my shit is filtered through 70 layers of "hmm could an 80 y/o dude with dementia be able to comprehend this error message?" that anyone with even a vague idea of what theyre doing has no fucking clue what to do to troubleshoot anything. its all just "your shit is fucked (10100100)" and when you google it the official support documentation for the error code is "this error code is for when the program has no fucking clue what went wrong". which WOULD be fine if the fucking developers put in more than like 5 error codes and just routed all the more complex errors into the catchall of "idk lol" so you never have any fucking clue what happened and when you actually go in to parse the error log its JUST A FUCKING SCRIPT THAT PRINTS OUT "IDK LOL" INSTEAD OF HAVING ANY USEFUL INFORMATION SO EVEN IF YOU GO TO SUPPORT WITH IT THEY WOULD STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE TROUBLESHOOTING PROCESS WITH YOU AND THE ERROR CODE WOULDNT DO ANYTHING AT ALL, ITS JUST FOR THE OTHER 4 ERROR CODES MADE FOR REALLY EASILY SOLVED ISSUES SO SUPPORT CAN JUST PATCH YOUR SHIT INSTEAD OF DOING THEIR JOB AND SUPPORTING YOU 101:YOUR COMPUTER ISNT PLUGGED IN 102:YOUR INTERNET ISNT PLUGGED IN 103:YOUR SHIT IS FUCKED, RESTART IT 104:YOUR INTERNET IS FUCKED, RESTART IT 105: IDK LOL A DEAD RAT COULD FIX THESE PROBLEMS WITHOUT ANY SORT OF OUTSIDE INPUT, WHY ARE THERE EVEN ERROR CODES WHEN THEYRE ALL JUST THE FIRST STEPS TO TROUBLESHOOTING ANYWAY but yeah this is a good video to send to people who dont know whats going on so they can continue to not know whats going on and its worthless to send it to anyone who hasnt already seen it :)

@traggums 6 лет назад

thanks for the link, sam

@bigboysdotcom745 21 день назад

Groomer lmao

@EternalATomik 13 лет назад

This talk gave me chills... I must spread it !

@TheFloatingSheep Год назад

Had me until he implied lawmakers aren't evil. I guess fire's cold, water's dry and grass is pink too.

@Freecell82 12 лет назад

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

@0xde57 11 месяцев назад

man what a good talk and only more relevant by the year.

@-Aar-n Год назад

Here from a comment on video from a review of Bluesky; decentralized Social platform; and the “enshittification” of fresh platforms becoming bombarded with tolls/bad actors

@paulista 12 лет назад

@28c3 can you send me the srt file, please?

@roidroid 12 лет назад

@spambot71 we're all hoping real hard that the 3d printing scene pans out fast enough to out-flank that looming threat. But at the end of the day we're all simply praying to hasten the nanobot revolution... yet again. The gradual realisation that one is pinning a lot of hopes for the future on what boils down to a quasi-religious technological dream: Feels bad man. :(

@generalralph6291 2 года назад

I can really see a cottage industry of replacing signed firmware chips with open firmware ROMs at the component level. Maybe freedom is just an eternal personal struggle.

@JodyBruchon 2 года назад

> freedom is just an eternal personal struggle Exactly.

@generalralph6291 2 года назад

@@JodyBruchon Hey the reason I watched this video was your referral on the Windows 11 video. Important to know.

@JodyBruchon 2 года назад

@@generalralph6291 ❤️ that's fantastic! Thanks!

@Brainiarc7 10 лет назад

Fascinating indeed.

@roidroid 12 лет назад

@MrElvey afaik so is Android, one of the "locked down app store" systems he's talking about much like iOS no? And isn't Android open source? (no really, i'm more asking than anything)

@DiegoSpinola 3 года назад

2021, and we now have censored app stores...

@TheSuperbaconator Год назад

Man hindsight sure is 20/20 👀

@Voxnulla 12 лет назад

@elfboi523 And MP3 players and digital camera's and new cars and dishwashers or any new sort of home or kitchen appliance? All of these are stuffed to the brim with FPGA's and SOC's running proprietary software and all of these can potentially "spy" on you or run more software.

@azngoku666 6 лет назад

the question at 39:00 is really ringing true now!

@aight2312 7 лет назад

Powder puff girls

@VAXHeadroom 12 лет назад

People: please note: it's copyright - a right to copy, not copy write (something that's written?)

@paoloc.6449 7 лет назад

did he say at 17:17 "a program that does one specialized task like STREAMING"??

@J2897Tutorials 7 лет назад

Yeah, like ffserver.

@pajeetsingh 12 дней назад

They will call us "Conspiracy theorist"

@ShaeErisson 13 лет назад

I do wish some solution had been proposed. The description of the problem was excellent.

@JCurcio 12 лет назад

@R4NDYS4V4GE i think the warning / speech you're talking about was eisenhower at the end of his presidency, not JFK. not that it matters all that much.

@MrElvey 12 лет назад

@Voxnulla - Yeah, Open Source software can't be used to build reliable systems like Google. Oh, except for Google, which is built largely on Open Source Software. As are most of the big, successful dotcoms.

@bbyponk 3 года назад

Chuck Berry died today

@Suuuperelaxed 13 лет назад

Excellent talk! and very scary!

@NicolaiSyvertsen 13 лет назад

usually the problem isn't with fast talking but sloppy pronunciation. yes, by native speakers.

@colloredbrothers 12 лет назад

This seems more like poetry slam then a lecture. Great listen

@innovationsanonymous8841 17 дней назад

Whenever someone wants a deployment pipeline for closed-source (anti-detection, evasion, anti-analysis) and proprietary (uses a product server to download the payload .. erm i mean "product"), im just like... Yeah ok ive done malware dev ops before. You want your logo or mine embedded in it?

@indeepjable 2 года назад

arent specialized devices specifically intended to run types of programs through hardware a thing like, a hardware device specifically designed to run ai as best as possible; specifically ai, not necessarily some other programs

@zerorig Год назад

you need to understand the point about being turing-complete - a general purpose computer CAN run any program you throw it even if it's unoptimized and takes 10,000 years the point is that it's still actually possible even if it's done through weird minecraft computer

@lushfauna 12 лет назад

@bongnbud What about those news stories you hear about teenagers and their parents getting million dollar fines for downloading music and such? Is it already a "drug war" do you think?

@RichardTakeshita 7 лет назад

A data pagan, and a cyber vegan

@elfboi523 12 лет назад

@87solarsky I do like smartphones, but I'd like to have an open one, like OpenMoko or something similar. Something under my control, not the control of some companies.

@zaineridling 13 лет назад

Wow, he's right. Time to get started, NOW.

@analyze9030 11 лет назад

This is so good.

@dallassegno 18 дней назад

I agree with the premise. Thanks.

@iiiears 12 лет назад

True, True, and True, here is the interesting part. Without personal control over our devices we will rent computing power from others. They have incentive to increase profits by producing artificial scarcity. Limits that create services for things you might do for yourself. Stream a Blu-ray saved on disk to a second T.V. Video chat without buffering or price increase. Backup your SSD device using a tool with a competitive price.

@iiiears 12 лет назад

@blinxwang Great idea. And OPEN hardware. Would you like some RasberryPI? /silly

@rseasyguidesto 2 года назад

Sam hyde sent me

@commanderrussels2612 2 года назад

OK GOOGLE

@bigboysdotcom745 21 день назад

Oh the guy who had that cool relationship with that Marky girl?

@Freecell82 12 лет назад

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called “Linux”, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use.

@rebirthmode3437 3 месяца назад

OKAY GOOGLE

@anonharingenamn 22 дня назад

Real king moment to shit on the drug war in 2011, in Germany no less. The parallels between attempting to defeat "bad" use of software and attempting to defeat "bad" drug use are many.

@CineTechGeek 12 лет назад

Cory, you are a leader of men.

@sominianalternativo2975 11 лет назад

And yet, UEFI is a thing and there are reports of bricked laptops after installing Linux.

@NLRamonNL 12 лет назад

I really enjoyed this, awesome speech!

@ReX0r 12 лет назад

@29:22 -- EFF, Bits of Freedom, EDRi, CCC, Netzpolitik, La Quadrature du Net, and all the others, who are thankfully, too numerous to name here -- we may yet win the battle, and secure the ammunition we'll need for the war.

@Mardal 12 лет назад

Another front is opening up in the war on general computation. Telcos(Telia) are trying to tax the use of Skype, because they don’t like the prospect of people replacing their old landline telephones and subscriptions with internet based alternatives.

@Freecell82 12 лет назад

Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called “Linux” distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

@sejtano 12 дней назад

so they are actually killing the general purpose computer, but using AI, that will control everything you can and can't do on your device

@thewhitefalcon8539 9 лет назад

Around/just before 18:00, he implies that a single-purpose appliance is fine, but a locked-down general purpose computer that *acts* like an appliance is not. I don't quite follow this argument - surely it's not a problem as such a device isn't *advertised* as a general-purpose computer? I can't reprogram my dishwasher, but I don't see it as a problem either. Of course, there's also no physical or cryptographic protection measure (I assume) preventing me from ripping out the control board and building my own, which might be what he meant. He also throws the word "spyware" in there, without explaining how spyware is related. You can have a locked-down computer-appliance-thing without spyware, and you can have an open general purpose computer with spyware. If a third-party sets policies, that's not spyware, although *if it updates automatically* it probably is malware. (And it *can* be spyware if it reports back)

@paulperkins1615 7 лет назад

Spyware is a good example of a "feature" you might want to remove from a computer system you own, but if the computer system is sufficiently locked down, then you cannot remove the spyware. Locked down systems ARE being sold as essentially equivalent to general purpose computing systems. The argument that the public should have access to general purpose computing resembles the argument that the public should have access to guns. Though of course guns are more directly dangerous. And we are not that far from having the DMCA interpreted as making it illegal to replace the control unit of your dishwasher.

@thewolfin 6 лет назад

Compare, contrast, and combine: power line ethernet, wireless routers, smart meters

@rolfs2165 5 лет назад

You can lock down functionality of a device without resorting to spyware, yes. So if you want a device that can't play music, you don't install a sound card. However, the only way to stop a device that's capable of running MS Office from running LibreOffice is by having spyware that checks for the running programs and stops you from installing LibreOffice, since they both use the exact same basic functionality.

@elfboi523 12 лет назад

@Voxnulla That's why we need open systems in all of those.

@lushfauna 12 лет назад

@MrSaturdayNightSpecL You don't get it. It's not about that. he's saying that copyrights are dead now all together because copy rights hinder mans evolution and only protect profits and tyranny. If the wright brothers patents stood we would never have aircraft we have today. If the ideas time has come and is a big one there is nothing you can do from humanity using it. I can see your point with music, movies and books but it's not about that -they just need to find new business models and adapt

@MrElvey 12 лет назад

@MrElvey So Android isn't that much more open than iOS. I didn't realize this 'till recently. Apple fights hard against developers that make software to unlock iPhones, but not against developers that make software to jailbreak iPhones.

@Tasteslikedaniel 12 лет назад

I heard they developed the internet and the personnal computer so they could have windows into every home, seems like its going that way

@lushfauna 12 лет назад

@maxmanrules I agree with you on this, I've always said thank god the geeks are critical thinkers and most of the time fight on the side of good. The way the world is going right now though only makes me cautiously optimistic

@bbyponk 3 года назад

soy

@SomethingAbstract 12 лет назад

this was great to watch.

@kirstinetermansen3426 6 лет назад

There noone home in that show

@KingKhain 12 лет назад

Send this video to your Congressman!

@MrSomethingdark 19 дней назад

The voice of the first asker if beyond reason omg.

@MrElvey 12 лет назад

@roidroid, you asked if Android and its "locked down app store" make it like iOS, and if its open source. Android and iOS are both combinations of proprietary and open source software. Both are a unix OS at their core - The former is based on Linux, the latter is based on BSD and Darwin. Both app stores are proprietary applications. Officially, you have to get Google's permission to copy it, but I've heard Google turns a blind eye to that (cuz they make money when its used).

@E1SUNZ 12 лет назад

I couldn't watch all of this can someone quickly please summarise what this is about the description is too long, thanks :)

@elfboi523 13 лет назад

This is why I am against closed systems like iPad, iPhone etc.

@litianzhang3156 4 года назад

Good talk.

@ibrahim3690 Год назад

Sam hyde brought me here hey google

@bigboysdotcom745 21 день назад

The guy with that cool relationship with that Marky girl?

@randomsnow6510 19 дней назад

nazi nazi nazi nazi!

@Pommesflasche 13 лет назад

this guy is such a fantastic speaker, why did he READ his lecture :(

@LordKelvan 12 лет назад

@iiiears raspberryPi isn't open hardware afaik, at least atm

@gmmonko 12 лет назад

@elfboi523 - Couldn't have said it better. Those devices to have a GPS capability too.

@otheroftheother 12 лет назад

@nikch1 Yup. I think that there aren't enough incentives for politicians to listen to the people who elect them. Lobbyists and special interest groups are able to gain more support than citizens, as they're capable of donating more and essentially funding the candidate's entire re-election campaign. What we really need is a method for the people to call a vote of confidence. We can vote for the people who seem to be the best, but the media can influence our decisions in favor of one person

@CreatorsInCreation 13 лет назад

I'd like to hear a discussion regarding the exchange of energy from a developer to a user in today's social structure. Much of what I'm hearing in this discussion is not about computers but how we exchange energy. I have my own thoughts on this topic but I'd like to hear more regarding the roots of why this is an issue to begin with. I liked the starseed comment ;-)