I liked the warning at the beginning, too, just in case some haven't finished, or for whatever reason, they clicked on this while NOT wanting the explanation. Thanks again!
same here. I didn't enjoy the joke scene thought it was a bit lame, my fault entirely. This film did an excellent job of explaining its relevance and I am really looking forward to the next series.
@@kenhew4641 This joke was not in the books. It was purely from the Netflix series. I have to admit, the writers were really clever and I loved the way they decided to go with The Dark Forest Theory. Way more intriguing and mysterious than basically just saying it outright.
Don't worry, our constant communication via radio waves and satellites have basically already lit up our location far brighter and have travelled much farther than voyager can ever go
Bro!! I thought this when i heard of Voyager being sent out in my year of birth '77. Arrogant of us to think were the only ones in the universe, stupid of us to think that life out there are all friendly.
Somebody posted this on Reddit about Voyager. Who I am is not important. All you need to know is this - for the past five years, I’ve been part of the NASA team that looks after the Voyager 1 probe as it travels further and further away from the Earth. We have helped keep it functional for decades after its expected lifetime and at a distance of 14.5 billion miles away from Earth. It really is a marvel of human engineering. If you’re interested in our work, you’ve probably read in recent news about the unexplained malfunctions that the craft has been suffering from. It’s true that the probe is experiencing difficulties, but that’s not even half of it. God, it’s not even a malfunction at all. Blame the government suits for that lie. The probe’s orientation in space is managed by a system called the AACS, which stands for “attitude articulation and control system”. Normally, the AACS makes sure that the Voyager has its antenna pointed to Earth, so that it can both send and receive signals. That is how we get the data the probe collects, and that is how we make sure it will stay functional for as long as possible. Two weeks ago, we started receiving information from the AACS that simply could not be true. We checked, then double checked, but there was no mistake. The data we were getting contained a single, confounding piece of information. The probe had stopped. It was, to put it simply, hanging motionless in space. We scrambled to find the source of the error. Had the AACS broken down, sending us flawed information? Was it some other system that had broken? Thankfully, the fault protection software hadn’t triggered - that would have shut down all but the most essential functions of the probe. As it was, we could run all the tests and diagnostics we needed. No one considered even for a second that the readings were correct. That would be ludicrous. But day after day, we found nothing - as far as we could see, there was no malfunction at all. Nothing had broken or gone wrong. For all we could tell, the AACS was working just fine and the probe was, indeed, just hanging in space. NASA higher-ups berated us and told us to look again. “Probes don’t just stop,” they told us. “There’s something we’re missing here, there has to be.” A monotonous, unfulfilling week followed. More tests, more diagnostics. Same result, every time. In desperation and at our wits' end, we attempted to instruct the probe to rotate or start moving again. The thrusters complied, but the Voyager remained stubbornly in place. Our approach to the situation changed. We shut down all the systems aboard the Voyager and, going one-by-one, switched them back on and checked their functionality down to the smallest detail, only moving on to the next after we had made absolutely sure that they were running without any issues. Then, a breakthrough. Without our prompting, the on-board plasma wave instrument - essentially a sensor that detects waves of electrons in the interstellar space that the probe travels through - had switched back on and begun sending data to us. Understandably, this caused quite a stir. Equipment turning on and off of its own accord - now that was a problem. There was a feeling of doom in the air. Suddenly, the idea of losing the Voyager 1 - after so many decades - seemed all too real. The data from the plasma wave instrument can be listened to, since the waves it detects take place on frequencies that the human ear can detect. Naturally, we decided we should listen to whatever recordings it had sent back. From the very beginning, the data was bizarre. Normally, the sound of the plasma wave instrument is a monotonous, eerie hum, the background noise of the interstellar void. The recording we received was nothing like that. Rather, it was a series of rapid spikes - a bleeping, wailing sound, irregular, punctuated by bouts of almost-silence. Our team was dumfounded. What did it mean? Another faulty reading? A space anomaly? At this point, we were coming to terms with losing the probe altogether. I guess it wasn’t that far-fetched - Voyager 1 was operating decades past its expected lifetime. It had always been a possibility that it would simply break down one day. As we sat in the listening room, pondering and arguing, one of my colleagues - a genius and one-time child prodigy named McKinley - suddenly sat up straight. I looked over at him. His face was rapt with fascination. “God above, I’ve got it. It’s Morse code.” There was a second of silence. “Ridiculous,” someone sneered from across the room. “How could it-” “Listen to it,” McKinley insisted. “The spikes, the punctuation, the breaks - it’s Morse, I tell you.” He grabbed a paper and pencil and began playing the recording back again, mumbling under his breath. “P…. e… r… a….” After a few minutes, he sat up and lifted the paper into the air. “Per aspera ad astra,” he declared victoriously. The room exploded with frantic activity, people shouting over each other, asking questions, voicing confusion, drawing hypothesis. That phrase - per aspera ad astra - was known to us all. When the Voyager probes were launched, NASA attached something called the Golden Records to them - a phonograph record meant as a message to any extra-terrestrials they might encounter out in the void. The Records contained everything from music to the sounds of nature to recorded greetings in 55 languages. And, last but not least, there was a Morse code message. Per aspera ad astra - through hardship to the stars. A motivational quip sent to our interstellar neighbors. More recordings came in, even as we argued among ourselves. These readings were impossible, they couldn’t be real. We were receiving all the sounds stored on the Golden Records, distortedly played back to us through the readings of the plasma wave instrument. Birdsong, music, even the sound of Karl Sagan’s son saying hello. With each reading, the room grew more quiet, more subdued, as the truth dawned on us all. Someone - something out there - was listening to the Golden Recording. And then the AACS went haywire. Suddenly, there was movement where, just a second before, there had been none. Our systems were flooded with locational data, and my heart plummeted as I realized what was happening. The Voyager had started moving again. At speeds no human creation should be capable of, it was hurtling through space. And it was heading back towards the Earth. I understand now. I understand why this is happening. The recordings aren’t the only thing on that disc. There’s so much more. Diagrams of human biology - of our culture - of the Solar System - Dear God, it all leads right back to Earth.
@@GiantFreakinRobotI preferred the joke to the expo dump from the books. It made more sense to use subtle metaphors because she knew a direct explanation would tip off the aliens. Sometimes, less is more.
It was intended as a riddle about the dark forest strategy, but it does also work on the level of just a joke. "Don't play with God" is a pun, referring both to messing with God and to playing music in a duet with God.
Yeah I think it's a no-brainer for Netlfix, the hype leading up to this first season, the acting, their ability to follow a book that attracts audiences from all over the world, Netflix would be fools for not doing at least a second if not a third season. I know they have been trying to capture Southeast Asian audiences ever since Squid Game, which did exactly that and boosted their stock price/subscriptions from that part of the world. Since then, we have seen more and more Korean, Japanese, and Taiwanese releases. Given that this show includes a cast of characters from all over Europe and Asia, I think it's safe to say at least one more season is coming.
@@GiantFreakinRobot no its not, i dont know why but the show deserves atleast the success like stranger things or any top ones. Maybe if they make second season then cuz their is the main story
The Showrunners who gave us The 3 Body Problem are the same ones who gave us Game of Thrones. They also gave us the 2009 version of Deadpool that doesn't talk or make jokes. Prepare for an amazing build up and a massive let down.
@@GiantFreakinRobotYeah, but Netflix’s hobby is cancelling hit shows. I really am surprised Stranger Things was permitted to see its way to a series finale.
@@yseson_the netflix series seems to be that way. But the books have a lot of depth and character development. 8 episodes don't do the series enough justice. For comparison Tencent version of the adaptation had 30 episodes.
In the original work, Ye Wenjie gave two axioms to this person: first, survival is the primary need of civilization, and second, civilizations continue to develop and expand, but the total amount of matter in the universe remains constant. She also introduced him to two concepts: the Chain of Suspicion and the Technological Explosion, without saying more. At that time, Luo Ji (the Black Brother in this show) did not understand, and it was not until much later that he realized. In this drama, there is a mention of Einstein and the violin, which I guess is related to gravitational waves and string theory. Additionally, on Ye Wenjie's bookshelf at home, next to Einstein's bust, there are two books: "Game Theory" and "Fermi Paradox", which is somewhat similar to the original work. Perhaps this is the key to finding a way to resist the Trisolaran civilization.
I hope they give this discovery credit to Saul instead of deleting the important concepts. These concepts are the foundation of the dark forest theory.
I’m trying to get into the lore and just the world of science in general, so I’m obviously not knowledgeable on anything but they say the matter in the universe stays constant. Does that mean in this story the universe isn’t expanding ?
I've seen other videos describing this but yours is the best one I think. Thanks for posting. The story is subtle and you can watch it and miss something like this easily. I got the "don't mess with God" idea while watching, but there is more to it than only that. Great writing.
I just finished the second book and at the end when Luo Ji (Saul in the show) describes the dark forest I got a pit in my stomach and chills down my spine. I will never look at the night sky and all of those stars up there the same way. Such a great series.
Something has been bothering me since I first watched the show. I can’t seem to find the answer. Maybe I missed a scene or something. The question is, when Dr. Ye (the woman that made the first contact with Aliens), a “good” alien told her not to contact them because the aliens will kill mankind. Then the show made it seem like the aliens only made that decision to kill the mankind only after finding out mankind can lie. However, hints were placed throughout the story that even before the aliens found out humans can lie, they were already planning on killing humans. Examples: killing scientist and not letting scientist further their experiments. Also it was funny how they only found out humans can lie after the conversation with Evan’s because they were able to see everything from the beginning. So that means they know humans can lie before the crucial conversation. Can anyone answer my questions? Much appreciated.
@@mtc343 if they're going by the book then it shouldn't be the aliens killing the all the scientists. It will be the ETO or Earth trisolarian organization.
@@mtc343 that''s correct bro, one thing for sure even tough the alien tech is far more advance than human, they can't read human mind.. that's why they say "we are afraid of you" in the phone call, because they can't predict what human plan/think.
@@GiantFreakinRobotMy initial belief was that the joke was intended to tell saul that the santi can't understand jokes and they need to communicate in ways the santi can't understand. Some have mentioned a connection between Einstein's General Relativity and gravitational waves. The violin sending gravitational waves as is done in the novels.
@@GizmoMaltese And Einstein playing the violin also could be related to Singer's nickname for humans "Starpluckers" as if plucking an instrument (the Sun)
@@GizmoMaltesemy interpretation was that she was telling Saul, to send a message to the universe of the San-ti's existence. Thus drawing the attention of another more powerful race to kill the San-ti. Saul's name may also be a clue? The biblical Saul was present and apathetic towards the persecution of the early Christians and jews. But after he witnessed a miracle he became a devout Christian. Saul's name means "to ask" or "to request". This highlights that Saul was chosen by God for a specific mission: spreading the word of God. I think this means his mission is to figure out a way to tell the universe of the San-ti's existence. I've never read the books so I could be wrong.
This is a great video, but besides the means of how to destroy the aliens, she was also demonstrating how to communicate from now on our plans so the aliens will not understand it. The joke is the means itself. They established the aliens cannot lie and do not get our metaphors (most aliens would not as it is a very specific cultural thing). Her friend and partner was excommunicated by the sant ti just by telling them little red riding hood, the most basic child story we have and they did not get it. I think people missed the import of that whole scene. The aliens could not get how a wolf could pretend to be human and how little red did not know immediately it was a wolf. It went right over their heads and all they got was "we are liars". We can get it at age 4, but they were just clueless and had no ability to think in metaphors and to understand even basic fiction. The "joke" she told was purposefully bad, it wasnt funny. That was the point I thought too. She was telling him explicitly they can communicate by jokes and metaphors, as the aliens do not get them. So Sual and others moving forward can communicate plans on how to stop them and move science forward, and the aliens will only know they are communicating something important, yet would not be able to decipher it. That is why they tried to kill Saul as they "got" Ye told him something important..but did not understand what. This dialog was great because it is so well written and can even be argued is a metaphor for Ye's life. She was Einstein and the aliens god. They kicked her in the balls too and did not understand not to play with god. Now how the UN knew she communicated with him? Kind of a plot hole.
Very good analysis. I don’t believe that the UN picking him as a wallfacer is a plot hole. As i understand it, UN had been alerted by intelligence that the San-ti were trying to kill Saul in the autonomous drive car crash, and deduced that he must have received some important information somehow.
"I think people missed the import of that whole scene" Actually, you are layers too shallow in your analysis, and maybe missed the point yourself In the joke, Einstein is Humanity/Ye (mainly humanity) attempting to 'play' (communicate) with higher forms of life and make themselves known to the universe. The angels (the Santi) attempt to warn Einstein (humans/ye) that doing so will lead to the destruction of the human race by God (Alien race much more advanced than the Santi). We know this from the film as the first message from the Santi is a warning to stay silent. The books provide evidence that the only successful wallfacer (Which will likely be Saul in the series) hatched a plan to expose a star system to the universe, which was destroyed after being known to other forms of life (and it is said that it was destroyed by a race magnitudes more powerful than the Santi, so its not them) The Santi are simply worried that if humans discovered the 2 main secrets of the universe (1. Survival is the need for civilisation, 2. Civilisation grows but the mass in universe is always constant) that they would discover the presence of God (super powerful aliens) and attempt to reveal the location of the Santi to the universe, ultimately leading to the destruction of humanity and the Santi -> that's why they prefer Earth / Einstein to stay silent. And why Earth should stay silent for their own sake is obvious
@@49Xofficial it's an interesting analysis but that was not my interpretation when I first read Three Body Problem. The renegade San Ti, who warns Ye Wenjie not to respond, said "I am a pacifist in my world", and was simply warning Earth that they could be invaded by the San Ti because their world was doomed, for which the renegade was "punished". Yes later on, the San Ti reveal their concern about the dark forest threat.
She was still being trailed 24/7 by that one agent. As soon as she was murdered in China they worked their way backwards. He was the last person she met with and an attempt on Saul’s life was made. They made him a Wallfacer because the aliens want him dead.
Interesting - tho I think Douglas Adams already predicted what will be the final outcome... "the mighty ships tore across the empty wastes of space and finally dived screaming on to the first planet they came across - which happened to be the Earth - where due to a terrible miscalculation of scale the entire battle fleet was accidentally swallowed by a small dog.”
After finishing the series I dedicated a lot of time to reading the Dark Forest book. When I finished it I came back to rewatch the series with a couple of friends, and when we got to the joke I audible went "OH SHIT, I GET IT NOW!". My friends asked me to explain it to them, but I didn't and said that it was best to wait. Or even they don't get the joke yet.
It was a wordplay. God plays Sax - Sophon, who doesn't allow humans to play with string theory. The message I think is that they can't understand the joke, that level of abstraction and that can help humans communicate. This scene happened before the installment of the Wallfacer project. In the book, Ye Wenjie has another paragraph that explains the dark forest.
@polski Agree, GiantFreakinRobot explained nothing in his video, besides the absolutely obvious that the 'joke' was actually a hidden message. @Peter I like your theory about the Saxophone and Violine/string theory. I did not read the books, but it would be interesting to list of all the research the San Ti tried to shut down.
5 месяцев назад
@@lukrezialaval2406 It makes sense in English, but I don't know what the joke was in the original Chinese version. There the Sophon is a wordplay of sounding like proton (positive child) but meaning smart child.
So by the time they get here they will have heard all the other sitcoms, horrors, comedies, tragedies, romances, and the Word... And for any civilization advanced enough to travel among the stars they will know that you don't play with God... Meaning do not fuck with His creation. Obviously, anyone that is even capable of coming near will be warned and dealt with. Perhaps the 3 body problem is a way of warning us before we too set off amongst the stars...
Giant Freakin Robot I enjoy the show even more now since you have explained the joke/riddle. I fear that Netflix will pull a Netflix and not follow up with a 2nd season, but thanks to your comment section I now know of the Tencent series. Thank you.
The Fermi Paradox is basically a bunch of scientists acting like kids in a car yelling "Why aren't we there yet!" The answer to the Fermi Paradox is that our assumptions of sufficiently advanced civilizations are wrong (emissions, megastructures, exploration) and that distance is a key factor. And we've only just begun to observe our surrounding. In conclusion: "No, we're not there yet, kids. It'll take a while longer"
I agree with you. It presupposes we could easily see or detect alien civilizations, which is a BIG assumption, and might be wrong. And I think the common sense explanation of everyone is simply too far away from each other to detect is sufficient. Scientists and physicists have an assumption that just because you CAN do something you will. Like dyson spheres or megastructures. Even if an advanced civilization knew how to build this, maybe they just do not want to. Maybe their energy needs are met through some other means and it would be too costly, use up to many materials and maybe just too much of a pain to do. Maybe most civilizations dont travel around the galaxy for the same reason. It just isn't worth it. They build a few great telescopes to study the stars, like we do, and they are happy doing just that.
@@timreeves8937 take it a step further and your at my feelings on Fermi. Not just the distance and the fact that we've been looking for half a second on cosmic scales. Consider the possibility that humans, as intelligent species go, aren't very intelligent at all. How many species on this world deliberately destroy their own environments knowingly, while still living in it? An intelligent species from my point of view would likely never even have the ambition to leave their world, or possibly even ever have considered it. If you live in a balanced eco-system you have no need to ever expand. Intelligent species ever developing civilization at all is not a given. Hard to convince me that we are happier now than we were as hunter/gatherers, no matter the life span or how hard it may have been.
@@IDontBuyIt50 we are much happier now. LOL Life was awful back then and you lived to age 30, if you were not killed first. Always starving. Cold and wet all the time. I do agree that it is a human supposition that aliens would even want to "expand" and it is very possible that a highly advanced people might reach some point where they are just happy where they are.
@GiantFreakinRobot well the Fermi Paradox isn't right or wrong. It's just a question that presents a mathematical conundrum. But I'm sure most of our explanations that attempt to resolve it are incorrect, including the Dark Forest scenario. My money is on less exciting reasons, like having no motive to kill or colonize other worlds because expansion is impossible. Not just because of the crazy long distances between worlds. Each life-giving planet develops an ecosystem that is hostile and toxic to other alien races, much like an immune system. Any alien that sets foot on Earth would likely die from toxins or diseases that we evolved to resist, but to which they have no defenses. Terraforming may be impossible to achieve in realistic timetables; what good is a planet that only becomes habitable after a thousand years of engineering? It's probable that other races simply realized the futility of expansion, given the hard and fast rules of physics, and settled on improving their own home rather than wasting time and resources attacking its neighbors. And after discovering other life out there, they probably stopped caring after the novelty wore off. So now they aren't bothering to look or send messages.
Something has been bothering me since I first watched the show. I can’t seem to find the answer. Maybe I missed a scene or something. The question is, when Dr. Ye (the woman that made the first contact with Aliens), a “good” alien told her not to contact them because the aliens will kill mankind. Then the show made it seem like the aliens only made that decision to kill the mankind only after finding out mankind can lie. However, hints were placed throughout the story that even before the aliens found out humans can lie, they were already planning on killing humans. Examples: killing scientist and not letting scientist further their experiments. Also it was funny how they only found out humans can lie after the conversation with Evan’s because they were able to see everything from the beginning. So that means they know humans can lie before the crucial conversation. Can anyone answer my questions? Much appreciated.
No, they didn't decide after contacting Evans. In the book at least, the San-Ti/Trisolarans were presented with an interesting choice: because humanity's development of radio astronomy happened faster than their development of space travel, it was clear that they were not yet advanced enough to formally understand Cosmic Sociology, which in the book was the real idea Ye Wen-jie was trying to get Saul/Lou-ji to understand as necessary for dealing with the San-Ti and the Universe at large. As it was clear to them that Earth at the time had no concept of the Dark Forest state of the Universe, it became feasible to launch a colonial project rather than destroy Earth outright, which Saul will figure out later in the story is the socially accepted consequence of failing to mask your presence in the Dark Forest. The warning was issued by Watcher because the San-Ti had spent countless eras of their species' existence seeking out a less dangerous world to live on, and at that point, desperation had made them callous and nihilistic. Killing scientists and halting science was necessary because while using the sun as an amplifier allowed for line of sight communication across interstellar space, advances in our understanding of gravity and quantum mechanics, combined with our species seeming disregard for hiding our presence, would eventually lead to us being able to communicate indiscriminately with the entire universe which, SPOILERS, will end the Trisolaran Crisis in a fatal stalemate. Knowledge of our capacity for deception definitely presents a wrinkle in their plans, but by the end of the Deterrence Era, the next Era in the story's timeline, the San-Ti will adapt. Finding Will/Tian Ming's brain will be the real breakthrough in that regard, as well as ultimately ensure Humanity's survival.
Simply put, the trisolarians' motive is survival. Humans are just insects in their eyes, whether these insects should be exterminated or not doesn't really matter to them. But there is a threat that these insects could harm them in the future because the stable conditions of the solar system allow their technology to advance very quickly but the solution to this has already been solved thanks to the sofon. The ability of humans to lie is another fact that could also threaten their main motive, survival, trisolarians communicate by projecting their thoughts, so when they learnt synonyms while learning about our language, they were surprised that speaking and thinking were not synonyms, this made them know that humans communicate without showing their thoughts, but using vocal devices, this only adds to their reasoning that this insect called human is dangerous. That is, until this "insects" work a miracle that changes the trisolarians' view of humans.
I saw it to mean that even in absolute paradise you still don't p1ss off the man in charge. Like when they arrive the people who fall in line will live a life akin to paradise compared to what it was before.
No, because the San Ti have already said they can not coexist with liars. This means that when they arrive, they must exterminate all humans. Total extinction.
In the book, Santi was unable to interpret Yun'Tianming's three fairytales because they cannot comprehend implied message. But in the show, Santi was able to comprehend the implied message of this joke told by Ye'wenjie, so I wonder...
I'm glad to say I understood the joke when I watched the episode a few days ago. I did have to rewind and listen again though - on first viewing I realised she was telling him about the need to communicate indirectly and through metaphor, and then rewatching I guessed that the joke was probably about the Fermi paradox. Very nice. This series has some flaws and plot holes, but overall I really enjoyed it. I particularly loved the concept of using the aliens' lack of understanding of metaphor against them, it's a neat idea.
Thank you for this. I’ve been working out in my head what the joke means but as someone said in the comments, it’s more of a riddle to confuse the aliens made sense to me
If you read HFY, there is a good story where humanity sends a broadcast gets told to shut up and keep quiet, 300 years later humanity sends out "come get some" then 100 years later humanity sends out "everyone come out to play, we hate the quiet so we killed the bully"
HFY might stand for "Humanity, Fuck Yeah!" A genre of speculative fiction that focuses on themes where humans demonstrate their positive qualities, ingenuity, strength, or moral values, often in the context of interactions with other species or civilizations.@@GiantFreakinRobot
@@rodjacksonx the dark forest makes totall sense to me I'm a male whose 5 foot tall at 50 years old and been a bout a foot shorter than everyone in my year at school. In other words have you met humans.
The problem with the paradox is that it is founded on a set of premises everyone is expected to believe in without any first-hand personal experience to support them as empirical.
It assumes that all intelligent life thinks with fear as the underlying motivator and that technology is the supreme hammer to solve all problems. Considering the likelihood of habitable planets much closer than a four hundred year trek and the ability to gather immense information at a distance I can only see the author advancing a story by denying the scientific alternatives that this lifeform should well possess. Considering their abilities why wait until the last minute to solve their dilemma? So far I only see that the San-Ti and the author are not operating in good faith. Religious myths are like that as well. Trust what I say about the unknowable is knowable.
It's actually based on logic. Given humanity's own history of genocidal warfare as well as its rapid technological advancement, any alien civilization has good reason to fear Earth. It could only be a few centuries before humanity starts expanding and conquering other solar systems. The only rational conclusion is to wipe out humanity before it wipes out others.
Yes! Thank you! Makes about as much sense as "well, of COURSE we live in a simulation, since advanced civilizations would OBVIOUSLY create some, and then with MILLIONS or BILLIONS created we MUST be in one just through sheer odds!"
My theory: The Santi prefers to discrete 1 to 1 communucation via sophon (saxophone) rather than broadcasting ultraviolet (violin) into the universe which can be intercepted by anyone including, presumably, beings with the power and intent to eliminate anyone they come across. The Santi want humans to be fearful so they stop occasionally broadcasting the location of the Santi's new home-to-be into space.
In Oxford 5 person, only Saul and ChengJin visited Ye's home . Only Saul and ChengJin have talked with Ye when the santi's existence opened. They have strong connection with Ye wenjie. So Saul and ChengJin are all a kind of YEwenjie. They will do the thing what Ye did again in S2 and S3.
Highly recommend those who havent read the book stop watching this video. :) that is the best part of the second book when you as a reader realize human out smart san ti. so satisfying
But they recognized that the joke was a coded message; they tried to assassinate the characters afterward. Even if they don't understand the content, they can detect a joke *might* be full of secret content--HOW?? This paradoxes the whole theory
The books do 2 things to explain why this is not the case. First is the concept of a Chain of Suspicion, which states that a given risk of conflict only exists until a reasonable common ground can be reached, and that while our commonalities of species and shared environment make chains of suspicion between humans relatively easy to resolve, differences between interplanetary groups can extend into the Kingdom level, biologically speaking, thus making those chains of suspicion practically indestructible, thus, even with a common language, peaceful relations with other forms of sentient life is practically impossible. The other reason is that the San-Ti/Trisolarans are a hyper-literal, telepathic species that, combined with a highly stratified social system, never developed a capacity for duplicity and up until they get their "hands" on a human brain, don't understand it's strategic value. For them, at this point in the story, subterfuge is an out-of-context problem.
The solution to protect your civilization? Squeal on all the others. Like the old escaping a bear joke, you don't have to outrun the bear... just everyone else.
i think the idea Ye Wenjie is getting at is that if the San-Ti are in the universe, and the universe is a dark forest, then that means there are other species out there as well. Saul’s strategy next season (fingers crossed) may be to send a signal out to a third (or many more) alien species, thereby attracting a civilization to earth that is far more advanced than even the San-Ti. Of course, this is the problem with the dark forest-a civilization far more advanced than the San-Ti would likely attack earth as well, purely as a defensive measure. But there’s also hope that perhaps the most advanced species would be capable of coexistence with humans-and would defend earth against the San-Ti. Conceptually, this show is fantastic. Gonna go give the books a good reading over
IMO, the Dark Forest Theory sounds like it was written by someone who saw the Flash Gordon movie as a kid, and took Ming's warning WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and then became an academic.
My understanding was that it was a joke so san ti could not understand as its not in their nature to lie and a joke is essentially some kind of lie in a way. I thought she was trying to tell him to use jokes as communication.
The books are much clearer and detailed than the Netflix series, which I'd find hard to understand if I hadn't read the books. The Chinese televised version is on RU-vid. It's much better. And it takes them 30 episodes to get to what was covered in 8 episodes on Netflix.
@@Ffs.idek04 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3-UO8jbrIoM.htmlsi=1Hkkx7HRro9N6knQ That's the first episode. RU-vid will suggest the next in order after that. 30 episodes in the first season, the first book covered.
I mean, trying to formulate a strategy is a little difficult when the enemy can see and hear everything. Also, books are always more detailed since you literally read the thoughts of the characters.
Dude, I really appreciate the explanation! Just finished the series, probably won’t read the books but will definitely watch more of these vids… subscribed.
There is a small part in me that is willing to put mankind at risk of destruction just to know if there is other inteligence life out there...just to satisfy my curiosity...
Good breakdown. I thought this was probably what the joke was about. What's really kind of funny is that when you think about it, the Santi have no freakin clue when it comes to a sizeable chunk of Human communication. They listen to jokes, tales, comedy etc. and they just don't get it, complete failure. Even our science can be laced with word play nuance that is a total "HUH?" to them.
Somehow I doubt they'll stay true to the books in season 2 because I don't see them filming the drop destruction of entire fleet and other crazy scenes. They'd have to create interiors similar to battlestar galactica, completely futuristic streets, cities, moon bases, orbiting bases and so on. Filming GoT was easier cause all you needed was good medieval landscapes and castles, of which there are plenty. So all they had to create was costumes.
If the San-Ti didnt understand metaphors, why did they 'lie', and call the humans 'Bugs', when they clearly are not under the classification of 'bugs'? It shows that they can actually lie?
The Dark Forest is such a totally human perspective. We could have stayed hunter/gatherers with a reasonable population that co-existed with nature. Instead, as humans we are selfish and greedy, so we think aliens would be too. Maybe they would never even consider leaving, or space travel at all, being content living a balanced life in a balanced ecosystem that you don't deliberately destroy while still living in it. I don't believe as intelligent species go, we are all that high on the ladder. We aren't likely to ever leave this solar system for that very reason.
The idea of co-existing with nature suggests we are somehow outside nature. But we are not. Everything we do is natural, as we are a natural product of this world
The black people of Africa had no written language as did natives of north america. They moreorleas were nomads hunter gathers. Once western civilization came to africa, anarchy set in.
dark forest theory still accounts for that. yes some civilizations will be benevolent but there are millions. all there would need to be would be one who is malevolent and then… chain of suspicion arises. and communication lags. >>> In the book, the "chain of suspicion" is described as a situation where if one civilization detects signs of another civilization's existence, it will immediately suspect that the other civilization has also detected its existence. This mutual suspicion triggers a chain reaction of distrust and potential hostility. pair this with communication lags due to light speed limits and we have a recipe for disaster
So how does this help Saul? It seem3d pretty strati forward. The threat is already manifest so the joke is a bit of a late warning...unless...the idea is.....)wait, this may be a spoiler?) ... . . . . . . . . ... to find yet another species?? Hmmmmm. Getting interesting.
1:13 Actually, as the bible explains, denizens of heaven have a fairly busy schedule. They are to constantly kiss God's ass, and gloat over everyone in Hell that didn't make the cut. Tho ,I think the ass kissing was described as singing god's praises and a different word than "gloat" was used.
The theory falls apart quickly when you realize you are assigning human motivations to non human species. There is no way to be sure that all other life is as paranoid and violent as us
@@SalGilbert or the exact opposite. If you are cynical and paranoid, you assume the worst. If you are optimistic and extroverted, you could just as easily assume the best in everyone.
I have not read the books. I do have q question. In the scene where Evans is telling the story of Little Red Riding Hood and the Santi are perplexed by lying. They say, "we cannot coexist with liars". Were the Santi at first coming to share our world or was that a deception? If that was a deception then they do understand lying.
There are different factions among the San Ti. The ones who sent the warning were pacifists for instance. But in general the San Ti always planned to come and conquer in one way or another
Surly, they might get this method to save their lives and the world. However, the key question is if they knew about it, do they continue to develop the theory to know it wholly. I couldn't find the reason why they must do it, except their curiosity. The characters in TV series should know and notice the dark forest theory itself. It is extremely, particularly important. That is the main difference between first knowing the theory and then thinking the way and first knowing the answer and then...( I don't even know how the story continuously propels.)
I was mindblown when i read the novels, now i can see there many plot holes. If the santi wanted to kill Saul, how couldnt they do it with the sophons. They disrupted wade's flight, they can make magical numbers appear to anyone ffs. Also, using the micro threads for destroying doomsday ship to extract the hard drives seems like a very stupid idea. With all the explosions happening in the ship, the hard drive was only saved by the writer's plot armour.
because the sophons can't interact with anything on a macroscopic level, they can't control cars or manipulate digital devices. and the countdown is the sophon drawing the numbers on the retina by moving at speed light in the eyes of the victim same for every other ilusion The show created the plot holes by making them absolutely far more powerful than they're in the book
There are no such things as plot holes or plot armor. There is just a plot... and it's created by someone. Then the hive mind meaninglessly discusses or criticizes, but the plot stays exactly as the creator wanted it to be.
@@GiantFreakinRobot Yeah, the tech team on the meeting confirms that they can read it even if it's cut in pieces by the nano threads, since they cut so perfectly. They didn't mention explosions tho
My interpretation of the joke is that Einstein in heaven represents humans on an earth dominated by Trisolarans. Because the trisolarans and humans have different tastes, the Trisolarans will display tyranny and dominate over the humans and their actions(breaking the violin and smashing Einstein's balls) and might even possibly erase them from existence. It's pretty much the same as your interpretation, with just a slightly different angle.
The dark forest is a social theory that kinda falls apart on galactic scale, it is however much more accurate when applied to an environment with clear and limited ruleset on what constitutes survival-advantage-win-loss. . For example the internet social media environment.
The dark forest theory when explained in the books gives you chills.. a kind of nightmare.. but the story has more twists and turns as well as a chilling scene(way better than the canal scene) in the second book. I hope they show it in the second season itself.
This was a diversion of thought for the San-Ti. They don't understand the subtleties of the human mind and the layers that a story can give. Ye Wenjie disguised this warning as a joke to him and at first, he doesn't understand how this is a joke. That's the point, only she protected the message within it while saying things that the San-Ti might want to pay attention to. She also made it a point to tell him he has one of the best minds which the San-Ti directly correlated as a threat. This was deception at it's finest, and that will be used by Saul as a wallfacer or Will in the future against the San-Ti because they are united in thought, lying is not possible with their mode of communication. Humans are not the same. She said that jokes are important and we wouldn't survive without it. She was indirectly saying that deception is our greatest weapon against them.
_Ohhh,_ the "enemy of my enemy" concept adds another layer of meaning to the title, the three bodies being humans, the San Ti, and whatever is hunting for the San Ti in the dark forest...
How do the humans announce the presence of the Santi without also revealing ourselves to the rest of the universe? I guess if we're going down, might as well take the Santi with us
Mutually-assured destruction. It also ties into the Berseker solution to the Fermi Paradox. It took me a little while, but it explains why the San-ti suddenly became hostile to humanity.
If humanity shouts out to everyone about the san-ti and they're destroyed, whats to stop the destroyers from turning they gaze to humanity and destroy us? I still don't get it.
I still don’t understand why knowing about the Dark Forest would change anything. Does he need to contact another alien species to take out the Santis? Hahahahah
So season 2 will be about kicking God's testicles and breaking his saxophone, clipping the angel's wings, building a whole new instrument, and rocking out to death metal.
When i saw the scene. I thought, God was Senti Aliens. And She is Einstein. I thought, She's narrating her own story because Senti aliens warned her. But i thought, why is she telling him that. Now after watching your video, I understood. God is not Senti but some other alien race.
Not sure if the “joke” was a better way to do it in the show than what she says to him in that scene in the book which was equally vague. In any case, it’s not fully explained until the very end of the second book because it is the main point of the book and central to what he does as a Wallfacer. Folks should have some patience and see how it plays out rather than looking for an explanation to the joke now. (I was glad I didn’t watch any of the joke explainer videos until just now after finishing the second book.)
The warning from the Trisolarian was not because of the Dark Forest, but because it would give Earth's position to the Trisolarians who will come and conquer. Broadcasting signals does not give away your location, only your rough direction, it is replying that gives the distance and therefore your location. You can broadcast your (or someone else's) location based on celestial markers.
@@GiantFreakinRobot If that were true then the Trisolarians would have given away their position when they broadcasted their message. But they new it would not. The reply from Earth gave away their relative position which is why the Earth's Dark Forest deterrent would doom both worlds.
i know that this has to lead to the dark forest hypothesis from the second book but the show does a bad way of explaining it, in the book he remembers a conversation with ye (or someone) that explicitly mentions the dark forest theory.
