350 Legend vs 360 Buckhammer - Season 2 Episode 296 

Throw in the 338 Federal when you compare the 308 and 358 Winchesters. Great stuff Ron!! Thanks!!

Please run the 350 Legend and the 360 Buckhammer against the 38-55 and /or the 375 Winchester

Interesting topic on extreme cold. A few years back John Barsness did a write up on how extreme cold affects velocity. Way back in the early '80's I went out at -42°C and shot a few different loads in an '06 and a .308. Both seemed to have much more drop than normal and yes, the shots sounded somewhat more muted as well. Best to you all.

Sporting classics magazine is my favorite. I haven't missed a magazine in 5 years.❤

These shows are so much fun to listen to, It takes away all the boring and stress of my day as I listen learn and some things Ron says or questions that get asked remind me of things I forgot about while hunting or shooting my rifles.

A friend in Central Alaska was out with his sled dog team and a grizzly not yet in hibernation attacked his lead dog. He was carrying his Marlin .45-70 in an open scabbard. He pulled out the rifle to kill the bear and only the primer of his factory loads ignited. Thankfully, he’d kept a .454 Casull under his fur coat and it was warm enough to work. One shot dead bear but not before it had killed his lead dog.

Savage made many lever action rifles that used and still use rimless cartridges. Henry makes lever actions that use rimless cartridges however these rifles may not be tube fed.

Stevens 425, Browning BLR, Henry Long Ranger and other lever guns use a box mag instead of a tube. Any of these could be made to work with the rimless cartridge.

Yeah... the comparisons of the 375 Winchester, 38-55, Legends, Buckhammer, etc.... those too are great cartridges that would make good comparisons. I also like and use the 375 and 38-55 cartridges.

308 358 and the 3006 35 whelen would be awesome

Never thought much of 350 Legend. That is until I just put together an AR chambered in it for deer in MD. Now I'm super excited about it. Funny how that works.

Ron... You are right on the money about a 1 : 9" twist stabilizing many of the 62 grain projectiles and only the Speer 70 grain RNSP (and similar length/density projectiles) have been stabilized in .22/250 chamberings in my load development tests) > Obviously, you can also check the Greenhill formula!

The 360 Buckhammer has the advantage, bullet selection in .358 caliber are plentiful and have better bc/sd, i like my 35 Remington, may try this caliber.

fantastic idea I have a .308 and a 35 whelen love'm both. Geez I learn allot from you Ron :)

Agreed. I like all those cartridges.... 30-06, 308, 358, and the 35 Whelen. All great, and the comparisons would be useful.

Hello Ron. I just wanted to take a minute to thank you for your great channel. I'm always interested in what topics you are putting out there. I live in the Yukon, where we have a variety of big animals, starting with Grizzly bears, bison, moose, elk, cariboo (2 kinds) deer, and oh yeah, black bears. So I keep a 45-70 in camp for obvious reasons, a .22 for birds, and a Weatherby laminated stock in 300 win mag, my go to gun for all of the above, unless I'm in heavy bush, and the 45-70 comes into play. So you see, a ton of rifles is not always necessary, but I sure like to watch all your videos on all the guns out there. Thanks!

I love these developments in the straight wall cartridges, really fills a need for the midwest guy or gal trying to get some venison

.38's and .44's were named as such because in the earlier days of metallic cartridges the bullets were often of a heeled design much like the 22lr's of today. The nose or driving portion of the projectile was larger than the base seated in the brass and measured closer to their namesake and as Ron pointed out measure close to the external case mouth dimension. The cases over time have stayed the same but the firearms produced in them have tighter bores negating the need and trouble of a heeled bullet.

Keep up the good work.

JMHO..but i think at the -50 degrees the air is so dense and cold that the blast coming out of the barrel is absorbed so quickly as to act like a suppressor as the heat and flame would be dissipated and the density of the air would slow down the sound making it seem more quiet because the sound barrier would be be harder to hit because of that air density..as i said this is JMHO..and not taking into the effect the cold would have on other factors that could play a part in it..THANKS RON..YOU ALWAYS ENTERTAIN AND KEEP ONES MIND WORKING SHARP TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH YOU

A detachable box magazine kept in near your body in extreme cold helps keep the ammunition warm also and that part is the cartridge stop that keeps the next round from exiting the tube while cycling the action

Great interview.

I reload for both calibers. Ballistics they are fairly close, but the nod goes to the .360 BKHMR. Hornady reloading data reveals that the .360 is capable of driving a Speer 180 grain Fp to 2,503 fps! Consider the .308 drives a 175 grain bullet to 2,600 fps. That is eye opening comparison, indeed. I have seen loads for the .350 with a 170 grain bullet advertised at 2,450 fps. I like using .358 diameter bullets. I did get a Lee .356 sizing die to resize .358 projectiles to use in the .350. Both have a place in the deer woods.

The Savage 170 pump and Marlin 336 were both chambered 35 Remington and they really don't have a rim and they both use a tube fed magazine. Henry makes the long Ranger in 223 I don't think it would be hard to make one in 350 Legend. The main problem with running a 350 Legend in a tube fed would be the 150 Win Deer Season bullet has a very pointed bullet, the 180 grain Power Point and 145 FMJ would probably be just fine though.

In extreme cold some powders usually stick powders are very hard to ignite. The lower sound is from incomplete powder burn and lower velocity less boom. At close range likely won't see much drop. I have two different loads for my 6.5 a winter load and a summer load to compensate

Glad to see some information about the new 360. I've got to have one of the new Henry in that calibre !!! Thanks for the info !

Good stuff

The question about shooting in extreme cold temperatures sounds like a collaboration with Destin from Smarter Everyday coming! (HINT HINT HINT!!!!!)

Well, as far as muffled sound in denser air, that doesn't work. Denser air will only exacerbate the effect, rather than reduce it. Take two extremes and it will be clear: sound is a pressure and not "energy" wave, so sound in near vacuum - does not propagate at all, while sound in denser medium will carry faster and for longer distance as well (think water or metal).

The Buckhammer may have a slight edge in power, but I think this comes down to what kind of rifle you want. The Legend will be better in box magazines (bolt & semi auto) while the Buckhammer will be better in single shots, and of course will be great in a 30-30 sized lever action.

When I went through Artic warfare school as a designated Marksman, the instructor had us keep our ammo under our outerwear. I kept a magazine next to my long underwear (ecwcs flannel) and I never had an issue. Other guys with m4a1s had issues with ammo for their qualifier shooting. My shooting was fine at -35F It's the extraction that's an issue, not the magazine.

400 Legend ...... that's the way to go

I've got a bergara b14 ridge 22-250 1:9 twist. It shots sub moa with 55 grain Hornady varmint express. It'll shoot sub moa with 60gr Aquila loaded with Hornady interlock. Recently just tried some Hornady varmint express 50 gr v max and shot a .52" group at a hundred yards. The 55 gr are coming in around .70" groups.

The 35 Rem works in a lever gun be a use it has a shoulder to headspace on. This allows a good crimp to prevent the bullet getting pushed back into the case because of recoil. A straight walled case headspace on the case mouth. You can't crimp it much more than to ensure a straight case. This lack of a firm crimp the bullet can be set back. You mentioned a poster that mentioned the 444 Marlin didn't have a rim. He was wrong, it has a rim of .514 and a body just ahead of the rim is .470. It uses this rim to headspace so it can use a firm crimp to prevent bullet set back. As far as a lever gun functioning with a rimless case is nonsense, they work fine. A lot of old lever gun cartridges use black powder. The proper load of black powder fills the case enough so when the bullet is seated it compresses the powder. In this situation you don't need much crimp because the compressed powder charge prevents bullet set back. The 350 Legend being straight walled and cant be crimped is the reason it won't do well in tubular magazines. The 360 Buck Hammer was designed to get as much power as possible from the 1.8" straight walled 35 cal or larger requirements in some state that works well in a lever gun with a tubular magazine. It used the 30-30 case as a parent case because it when straightened out a 35 cal bullet is about as far as that case will go. They could have used a larger case to start with but being a straight walled case you wouldn't gain much if any more room for powder. Also, the amount of work to change the 30-30 case into the 360 is negligible. This allows owners to easily convert abundant cases into usable cases easily if they can't find 360 brass. As far as power it exceeds the power of the 35 Rem in factory ammo, reloaders can gain much by loading a bit warmer. At this point it may exceed the power of the 360. With the effectiveness of the 35 Rem is a well known quantity. So a cartridge that is very close in performance, but with an easier case to get should do well for those who want a 35 cal level gun and doesn't like not finding much ammo for it. For those who live in places not under such restrictions it will do well too. It wouldn't be hard to with a bit of work to get a rifle chambered for a full length 30-30 necked up to 35 cal and gain some power. This was a wildcat cartridge popular back in the days of corrosive ammo and a lack of poper cleaning that barrels got ruined. So a simple rebore and chamber touchup made the gun shoot well again. I've thought of it myself but most guns now days don't get ruined barrels to do such a change too. They shoot too good the way they are and cost too much too.

One reason there are very few rimless cartridges chambered in a "standard" lever action rifle is because it is difficult to properly headspace a rimless cartridge in a rifle like the Marlin 336/1895 or any of those from Winchester. I'll go out on a limb here and say that since the 35 Remington is a fairly low-pressure cartridge, it works ok, whereas higher pressure cartridges may have problems with excessive headspace. Since the Browning BLR, or Henry's clone of that great design, lock up with a rotating bolt, those rifles can easily handle a rimless cartridge.

Henry has a 6.5cm lever action... the technology is available for both spire and rimless carts in lever action

Where do you guys recommend to try and get a Sako rifle in up state New York?

Please just give us back our 35 Remington hunting ammo. We can't have it because the "Buck hammer" is more important. The 35 Remington has been the real Buck hammer for decades!

It would be nice if someone compared the 350L and 357 Rem Max/357 Super Mag both with 180 gr bullets and out of 18 or 20 in bbl. The rimmed 357Rmax is the perfect lever rifle cartridge.

Can you do 30’06 / 338’06 / 35 Whelan comparison?

I think that the colder the weather the faster it cools the gases from the shot down extremely quick that would lessen the report from the firearm

With the new .400 Legend that came out how do you think it will stack up against the .360 buck hammer and the .350 Legend?

I was watching this guy who was the best long range shooter supposedly in the country and he said getting the bullet close to the rifling doesn’t matter a bit. I was surprised to hear him say that, but I guess he would know better than anyone.

If you are comparing the 308 with the 358 I'd add the 338 Federal in the comparison.

I have experienced the quiet gunshot phenomenon hunting in Maine. I shot my 7 mm rem magnum across the field when it was about -10°F and my hunting partner 50 yards away. I didn’t hear it.

Extremely cold weather you should carry your ammo inside your jacket, don’t load till you’re ready to fire!

I'm waiting for the new bond arms lever gun, I want to put that in .350 legend.

Hey ron a video idea: cartridge wars, king of the greats 30-06 and wildcats like 25-06. 308 and variants. And 375handh and variants. And choose which have the best pros and cons in your mind

My guess is the super cold barrel and air is cooling the propellant gas so fast that it stops expanding hence the pressure wave is shortened and turns into a fump instead of a bang?..

Hi Ron. Answering reduced report in cold and high pressure conditions. The atmosphere itself pushes back against the expanding gases from the muzzle and keeps the concussive blast focused away from the point of origin. Anyone, standing behind the muzzle would experience far less of a blast whilst anyone in front would experience much worse. (please nobody actually try that). If you would like to see the phenomenon in action, watch a video of a rocket launching. At sea level you will see the exhaust focused to the point that it actually inverts in on itself and as the rocket rises and the atmospheric pressure drops the exhaust plume presses outward until it begins to expand at almost 90 degrees from the nozzle. This is when it separates stages to expose a vacuum optimized engine.

My uncle served in Korea. He and his fellow soldiers kept their 30 carbine ammo under their parkas until it was needed. They also completely degreased everything and lubricated with graphite. He said if you did that, the 30 carbine did what it was supposed to do. Regarding the reduced muzzle blast, I'm inclined to disagree with your theory. Cold air is known to carry sound much farther than warm air. The sound absorption by snow is still on the table, but I think the decreased report is due to decreased powder performance performance making less pressure - therefore less muzzle blast. And extreme cold is known to do that.

Ron, what is the difference between Winchester magnum rigle primers and Federal 215 magnum rifle primers? Been looking for about 2 years for Federal 215's and unable to locate some for my 300 Win mag. Please advise. Thank you. Gary David

The big issue with the legend for us hand loaders is bullet diameter. Remington was smart, they used a .358 bullet. The 360BH is a 35rem on steroids.

For the topic of using a micrometer to measure case head expansion going by the world renowned Vernon Speer you can load to a half of a thousand of case head expansion. (Just an example if you measure a case head @ 0.473 you are within the safe pressure limit @ 0.4735). It’s important to use virgin brass when using this procedure so you know for certain your starting measurements are at zero expansion. If you were to use once fired brass that wasn’t measured before a first firing you don’t know if you have had expansion already occur. I learned this from Randy Selby (“The real Gunsmith” on RU-vid ) and have adopted this procedure in all of my load development and even if using factory ammunition. I’ve developed loads for standard cartridges and my belted magnum cartridges as well. Randy has some great content on this subject for those who are interested and have the technical knowledge to use this procedure. Also I must add you should still be cautious and use all other methods along with using a 1” micrometer with 0.0001 graduation. I would also suggest using ball anvils to get precise measurements more easily. I’ve used this method and have had 11 loadings with brass for my 257 weatherby mag With no problems. As long as you follow this procedure correctly it will work very well for you. Side note also Bruce Hodgdon used this method while handloading among other practices measuring pressure.

A silencer cools the gas making it quieter the same is true for really cold whether.

Coldest I’ve ever seen was -35 Fahrenheit. I was not HUNTING, I just wanted to not die! I tell people when you get below -5, it’s going to hurt.

They will not make a 350 legend in a TUBE FED lever action. Because some 350 legend rounds come with a spire point which can discharge in the tube under recoil. That’s the reason you won’t find a 308 in a tube fed lever gun that’s why Marlin created the 308 Marlin express . 308 Marlin express will use round nose or flat nose bullets.

Well that picture is prettier anyway when the camera stopped working Lol keep the info coming enjoy all of it wrong or not haha

I think the question about 22 magnum and coyote hunting was more of a terminal ballistics question then an exterior ballistics question. But I may be wrong.

Can't answer about the report volume, but cold air sound waves propagate faster, not slower . Cold air is dense compared to hot air, and the speed of sound is faster the denser the medium.

Hi Ron,from Mississippi. Do round nose bullets do any more damage than pointed bullets, due to the shape

I can hear all things better in colder air (less than about 0 degrees Fahrenheit). Your air density theory is probably correct. I've heard people comment that they can hear distant conversations in cold air that they wouldn't normally be able to hear in warmer air.

Trent use a copper bullet like the Barnes TTSX it will be longer in a 165 grain bullet seated .020 off the lands

I bet in the extreme cold you would have to keep you're rifle in the cold air so the action doesn't freeze taking by taking it in a warm tent or cabin then back outside.

Ron enjoy all your videos and how you explain and compare cartridges. But with these new straight wall cartridges I don't understand why these straight wall states like ohio won't let you use cartridges like the 30/30, 35 Remington, 348 winchester since these new straight walls ballistic are all similar and most are just a 200yd cartridge.

id love to see your review on 22 creedmoor

Sound travels faster and further the denser the medium. The same sound travels further in water than it does in air.

I have had good success by seating the bullets 20 thousands off the lands ( hunting rifles )then find the best powder charge then vary the seating depth 3 thousands up and down to find the best groups . Hunting rifles are not target rifles , if you want a target rifle then buy one . Please don’t wear your hunting rifle barrel out trying to get target rifle accuracy out of it ( ask me how I learned that ) ! Thanks Ron for your informative programs !……..

Hi Ron 350 legend is based off 223 case and browning make a 223 lever action with a mag not tube , I’m a 350L fan and I’m trying to find a browning 223 so I can rebarrel it

steel contracts in extreme cold thus the reason for the light firing pin strike........and the feeling of a jamming gun.........also i wouldn't trust those Hornaty plastic tip bullets in a lever gun in extreme cold weather..............

The Buckhammer would be better suited for use in double action revolvers than the Legend.

350 legend could be 300 blk but better. I believe it's called 357 legend but the idea is a faster twist barrel with a 357 bore, (rather than a 355 like the 350 legend) to use and stabilize heavy, subsonic rounds. I saw a video on the channel "ap2020 outdoors" and I've been interested in the idea ever since.

Double base, and especially ball powders, are notorious for poor function at subfreezing temperature. Stick with single base powders for those conditions and add magnum primers for subzero temperatures.

RON, These segments are engaging. Comparison with .357 Maximum, 350 Legend, and 360 BuckHammer. You nailed the cartridge name with connection to designer, case dimension, and bore/ groove diameter. However .360 not new as was used by silhouette shooters in cooperation with developing a .357 handgun cartridge that would knock down the 54 lb. Rams at 200 meter more consistently. .360 Dan Wesson, . 1 longer than .357 Win. At 1.4 case length. It did increase the velocity and energy with just slight increase in recoil to be effective. Appreciate your insights and passion for education to the increased following. JERRY. 🦅🙏✡️

My 336c is pre 64,.. they made change in 64, it was sites and mine has a gold trigger I have all that info about the change and what they did saved in a document on a hard drive I have on a hard in a computer in storage,....

In Sweden, I'm talking about. This country would never do that. IT MIGHT HURT SOMEONES FEELINGS!!!!!

Marlin didn't add the 35 Rem. to their line until 1950.

.360 buck hammer ? Never herd of it

The .350 Legend, the new .400 Legend and the .450 BushMaster all have rebated rims, in other words the area making contact with the bolt face of the rifle is a smaller diameter than the case immediately above the rim. And, we need to know a rimless case still has a groove around the base of the case to allow ejection during loading a new round into battery. A rimmed case has a metal base that is larger diameter than the case immediately above the case base. Rebated rims like the .450 BM, .350 Legend and the .400 Legend lack a rim that will load into battery from a tubular magazine. The bolt face on a tubular action lever action has to make contact with the base of the cartridge during cycling to push the case into the barrel and into battery. The rebated rims work well in AR platform rifles and bolt actions whereas the rimmed cartridges have difficulty in a bolt action and pretty much impossible in a semi auto action.

Ron, Have you considered doing a comparison of 360 Buck Hammer vs 400 Legend? ARMYDAD

You're making a mistake comparing the 360 to the 30-30. I will be buying a 360 rather than a 350. The 360 is basically a 35 Remington in a straight wall making it legal in Ohio.

A rimless, straight walled cartridge like the Legend, has minimum taper on the case. That with no rim, allows the cartridges to stack "perfectly" bullet tip on primer...while in that tube magazine. Upon stiff recoil, and a sensitive primer.... you could have "detonation" of some or all cartridges in the magazine tube. I think that could be one reason why that Legend cartridge wasn't chosen for a tube fed magazine rifle. Headspaceing may also be another reason... The only cartridge that blows that "theory" out of the water... IS the 35 Remington, in Lever action, tube fed magazine. I think in general, heavy recoil in Tube Fed magazines are a bad idea. I never shot a 350 Legend, but I can say that it certainly that it shouldn't recoil any more than a 35 Remington OR a 360 Buckhammer! But just as Ron says, feeding the Legend from a tube fed magazine could present issues! Especially in a mass produced lever action!

While Length of bullet is A factor on bullet spin and stabilization .. it is not the actual story, round nose are more stable as the difference end to end is smaller ....think of a softball in a sock ....it is going to stabilize heavy end forward... the longer a poi ty bullet is the farther the light end is from the heavy end and the more tendency to swap end without spin...I did some experiential with cornstarch and tungsten powder and was able to stabilize very long (vld) boat tails in a 1:12 twist 308 ......but the bullets were forward weighted.

Freebore, USUALY its the lengh of the diameter of the bullet, from the bullet shoulder that touches the lands to the lands, But if you change bullets it's useless. Trial and error as to seating deph will give you accuracy and or pressure if you seat to touch the lands. Don't get carried away with it. Weatherby was famous for its freebore, yet till today advertise under 1 Moa Accuracy, so not to bad

I wonder if these feed less reliably

Ron does mention the importance of bullet length but he doesn’t mention barrel length. This to me explains why some guns stabilize bullets they mathematically shouldn’t???

They explain the effect of cold on an m16 in ice station zebra

The. 350 is rebated as well as the 450 BM. Also both have no shoulder at all. Leaving nothing to headspace on. Except the case mouth and that is crimped. Someone needs to explain this to the multitudes of guys that just don't understand.

Problem is just too many weapons systems, Henry is definitely guilty of this. They can’t get out what they have in their existing catalog. They originally said spring of this year for introduction for 360 Buckhammer rifles, I don’t see a catalog number or anything for them yet. If they were going to do this, they should’ve skipped that 9 mm carbine introduction for now and get the 360 rifles out there 1st and then if they wanted to do that 9 mm carbine right after… the 9 mm carbine is going to be a fad and this has way more usefulness, and can immediately start digging into the share of the 350 legend for both Remington and Henry. This is definitely one of those head scratcher situations.

Pardon my tongue in cheek but, could the quieter report be observed rather than actual because of increased thermal protection for the ears? 🥶🤔 Or a real thought: might your eardrums be less flexible because of them being colder than "normal"?

Those states should have just let them run the .35 Remington. Some laws are stupid.

In reguards to why the 350 is not used in a tube fead rifle I’ve read that it’s because it is not just because it’s rimless but that it’s is a straight walled rimless cartridge that’s what gives it problems. Vs the 35 rem being tapered there is more technical information out ther but that in a nut shell is why

I'll preface this by saying, I'm not a hunter but, the older I get, the more interested I become in hunting for meat. It seems to me that the most ethical way to kill an animal would be with a headshot. I understand that this could ruin a trophy and that the brain is a smaller target than the heart and lungs. It would also seem that a headshot would damage less meat. Are there any other reasons why a headshot is not recommended more often?

I have no use for 360 buckhammer or 6.5 Creedmoor

I have looked into the 350 legend and wasn't impressed with its expansion tests. But have been waiting for tests with the 360 buckhammer

Lol, the answer to a question no one asked, what if Remington made a .350 legend.

I would say a 6.5 Creedmoor has no business in a discussion, concerning Moose hunting. If someone cannot handle the recoil of a heavier rifle, too bad, they shouldn't be able to go. I know---- someone will say, oh there are tons of Moose killed with a 6.5 Swede. Yes, but if I'm not mistaken, those hunters have to pass a shooting test before being able to buy a permit.

Timestamps please.

Your comment about the longer bullets requiring a faster twist is flawed. It comes down to the surface area of the bullet engaged in the rifling. Perfect example most 308win hunting rifles are 1/10 twist but all most long range/tactical bolt guns are 1/11.25 which really shoot the long high bc bullets better. Look at rifle makers specs, and it seems this is only done with 308win.

There really is no comparison between these two *cartridges.* The MAIN advantage I see for the .350 Legend is that IF you already own an AR rifle (and many people do) and IF you want to use it in the areas restricted to these straight wall cases less than 1.8" long, then the .350 Legend offers an option that can be had by ordering an upper receiver online and having it shipped to your door for a fraction of the cost of a new lever action rifle. But that is an advantage that has nothing to do with comparing the *cartridges*