8.6 Blackout: The Weakest 338 EVER! 

garand thumb's video on the rifle "the fix" is a great example for how powerful the round can be in the right gun, it cut through 3 16 inch blocks like they werent even there

These blackout rounds were designed for quiet, close quarter combat, anything beyond that is icing on the cake,

Kevin was also the guy who directed the .300 AAC Blackout development when he worked for AAC, before he founded Q, LLC. 8.6 Blackout is a shortened 6.5 Creedmore case with a .338 Lapua bullet stuffed in it. The intent is that it can be used in the AR-10 platform with nothing more than a barrel change. They also found that 1 in 1" twist works even better, but they go with 1 in 3" to keep bullets from spinning themselves apart.

I appreciate how open minded you are even when it’s not your thing, a lot of this wave of subsonic specific has to do with modern people want to be able to ditch the hearing protection while plinking or shooting at hogs and coyotes

Ron, the 8.6 Blackout's parent case isn't the 338 Federal or the 308 Winchester, it's the 6.5 Creedmoor shortened.

I have seen the guys at Q and Discreet Ballistics do some very impressive work with this round. I have a 7” Daniel Defense PDW 300 I use for hunting white tail in the thick pines. You can’t beat an overall package of 20.75” long for getting through the woods and into a tree stand. It makes my full sized hunting rifles and even 18” shotguns feel like unwieldily beasts. I’ll definitely give the 8.6 a shot when I can more easily find ammo for it.

Some people believe the 7.5 FK pistol is a powerhouse, but if you then suggest they hunt game with a 30 carbine, they may think you are nuts. If you believe the Blackout cartridges are suitable for hunting, then you should have no issue with using the overpowered 7.62x39 or 30-30. Up next, taking Kodiak Bear with the 22 Short (warning: it's already been done).

I was under the impression that the 8.6 blackout is based on the 6.5 creedmore, necked up and shortened rather than the 338Federal(308win). That's what faxon says on their website.

JD Jones did a lot of subsonic round development with quite a lineup of different "whisper" cartridges. The concept was super simple, stuff the biggest, heaviest bullet you could with enough powder to tickle supersonic speeds and send it. That being said, the .375 raptor would potentially be a better option?

All I know is I’ve seen several people hitting 700yrds with 500ftlbs, suppressed it is quiet, the wound channels are extreme. All and all I think it is a great cartridge

Thank you so much, Ron, for doing the research to make this an easy-to-understand presentation. I only knew that the 8.6 was now a thing, but I didn't know what it was.

Love the Spomes take! You are appreciated Ron!

Apparently the way they optimised 300blk and then 338blk to short barrels was in part with a change of powder : instead of using the slow burning powder that most cartrige maker used in rifle cartriges, they choose fast-burning pistol powder. This made that the powder was able to transfer all it's energy in the span of a short barrel. As you said, the guy who created 300blk was initially working in pistol cartriges. I though that was neat, and I don't understand why nobody did that before, as short barreled rifles are nothing new! Also a subsonic rifle has all the reasons to have a shorter barrel, as it doesn't need the barrel lengh for speed, nor for precision .The only problem is stability, and they fixed that with short span rate as you explained very well

It just makes me think of how it would be great to see a 338 federal revival, especially if some companies chambered it in ar10 rifles. Or if Robinson Arms made a 338 federal chambering.

Ron makes me smile. Thanks for the vid.

So, Kevin Brittenham was formerly of Advanced Armament Corporation. They were responsible for taking the .300 Whisper and developing to work with in an AR without necessarily having to change anything between running subsonic and supersonic. Also, what they did that JD Jones didn’t do? Was get a SAAMI spec for the cartridge. As I recall Robert Silvers was also heavily involved in the .300 Blackout. The point was for Spec Ops units to get away from running 9mm sub guns. They could run subsonic ammo for stealth and then when things got loud, they could switch mags to supersonic and have their firepower back all in the same platform. Now, the fascinating thing with the 8.6 is that twist rate which alters what we’re used to where terminal ballistics are concerned.

As a seventeen year old I'm still hunting with a 303 British and loving it(and I still prefer older wood stock rifles,in fact my dream gun is a 8mm or a 7x57 kar98 Mauser rifle),but the ballistics of this new cartridge is very interesting and peaks my interest. Edit,I would gladly be an old fud with you 😄

Best description and comparison I've seen of the new 8.6 BLK round and related rounds. Thanks, Ron! I'll be converting my .308 pistol-rifles with 12.5"" barrels with the Faxon 8.6 BLK 12" barrels. Regarding my Diamondback .308 pistol-rifles with 13.5" barrels, I'll have to cut a little off the handguards.

That’s great information and philosophy of modern hunting. I guess it depends on what you want to achieve. It’s nice to have a multitude of choices now

Your videos are amazing and so informational you're not a fud you're a forward-thinker. Thank you.

How did I know, Ron would probably not like a new 8.6 sub/supersonic round developed in 2022! 😅 The 300 BLK was to fit in a AR15 and for close quarter under 200yd range imho. The 8.6 is a subsonic/supersonic for a AR10 size rifle. This is going to take off like crazy. You can have a .243W, 260R 6.5CM, .308, and 8.6BLK(.338) even the new 375 Raptor barrels all for your Ar10/LR308! Just a simple barrel swap! Same bolt, same mag, same everything, just swap barrels! Ron failed to explain that 8.6BLK uses a 6.5 Creedmoor case necked up for a .338 bullet and then trimmed. This is not designed to replace a .338 magnum. Its a whole new range. Look at the specs. On subsonic, you can use a 8.5" barrel and a 8-12" can for ultimate quiet, short, wood hunting gun. When have you ever seen that? The other thing Ron seems to miss, is that the round is limited by the AR10 mag size. That is why its not competing with the long .338 Magnums. 338 magnums cant fit into a Ar10/LR308 mag. Also the bullet/case design is the same lessons learned with 6.5C. A long, super efficient bullet, not ran way down into the powder makes the cases hold up better, as Ron noted by not leaving a donut. Its a more efficient bullet, and case and a gun. It has a huge range and in a Ar10, lets you change between 7 different calibers in minutes! From .243W to .338/8.6Blk supersonic or Subsonic and still will knock down anything in North America. Even a .375R for the largest caliber. You have bullet weights from 160 to 360 grains in just the 8.6Blk! I can use 1 rifle and carry 2 mags. 1 subsonic mag for close range woods etc, and a quick detach suppressor. Then switch to a mag of 210gr supersonic to reach out farther. Seems like it could be a massive hit to me :) Looks like this Kudu isn't a fan of the 8.6Blk! -8.6 Blk vs Kudu -ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_C6FKKx1d_8.html Ron may not be a fan of 8.6BLK but I bet the people are!

When I first read about the 8.6 it caught my attention. As an avid hunter/shooter in Oklahoma I have a couple different rifles depending on woods hunting or Prarie hunting. This was a great alternative to my. 30-30 and .243 win for the hunting my children do. One rifle for all their hunting needs, and for my range pleasure.

Super appreciate your perspective & that history Sir 🎉

Love all the 338s keep up the good work.

Another great video, you've got me thinking there might be a place in my gun safe for a short barrel 8.6 Blackout. And it would fit in a backpack nicely.

In my opinion the 300 BO was designed for CQB. And our special forces wanted something with more impact as the M4 or MP5. Urban warfare! This 8.6 seems to stretch that junction just a little further. I think the .308 or 7.62 still own that realm in the future with the 6.8 as the biggest replacement in that category. I would never choose this over a .308,.270, or 3006 for hunting.

hahaha i went to ask Mr. Spomer a random question about really low ratio twist rate barrels on his official website and then immediately stumbled across the 8.6 and further thereafter this video of his popped up in my “recommend” videos. Did not know he had already made a video on it. A 1:3 twist barrel on the 8.6!!! Crazy!

Terrific show. Thank you.

My brother took a beastly 7 point last year with his 300blk pistol. The terminal effect at close range was nothing short of fantastic.

I love 300 AAC Blackout but not for it’s amazing suppression capabilities but for the sweet ballistics of 110-115 grain out to 300 yards. Now this has me interested in 8.6 Blackout but not suppressed but more for that 220gr out to 300 yards.

Love love love the history recap

I am retired military and still work to support them. The 300 Blackout came into its own for subsonic work with our special forces. It has pretty much replaced the 9mm silenced sub machine guns used by our military in the 70's- 90's.much better range and hitting power while still remaining subsonic. The 8.6 Blackout will be embraced by the special ops community since more mass and diameter means more stopping power and still remain subsonic with a cartridge usable out to 200 yards

Thanks Ron, for another terrific episode!

Hey Ron thanks for the update, and the twist rate is the key for this raskle,To each his own,just have safe FUN.

Love your videos man, thank you

Fascinating!!!

Fun video! We missed a couple of the strong points. It's designed to fit in AR 308 style rifles. It works perfectly with your remaining magazines. It was also not designed to need a 16-in barrel. It comes into barrel configurations. Remington 700 style action and AR-10 action. If you're interested in this round It would also be who people to look up videos of Kevin in Africa taking tons of different large game with it including cape Buffalo

I’ll stick with my heavily blued walnut stocked 7MM Remington mag rifle PS. You new guys can enjoy your AR whatever platform rifles , enjoy 😊

@7:00 I'm a fan of your channel and I've heard you mention the doughnut build up being a possible reason for design of the lowered shoulder and I'm sure that's one of the reasons for it. For this 8.6 blk out however, there is a much more important reason for doing it. As far as i know, and it has to do with cartridges properly seating into the AR 10 magazines. Apparently the OD of the 308 neck is 338. Same as the 338 bullets in the 8.6 black out. This allows the cartridges to tuck in to the ribs of the magazine and align the way the 308s do, which greatly increases reliability of feeding for semiautomatic gas guns using AR10 style mags.

The 6.8 SPC and the 224 Valkyrie do a really good job on the whitetail and Axis deer when the distance isn't over 225 yds. These 2 rounds use the same brass but different sizes of bullets. Both of these rounds actually use the same mags. I have color coded my magazines to make sure to use the right ammo.

I started hunting with my 300blk 10.5 and love it. Easy to get through the woods and up in trees and using Barnes Tac Bullets it drops deer easily. Plus with subs it's easy on new shooters and getting them accustomed without the loud crack and recoil.

I agree to each there own. Depending on your part of the country you hunt 200 maybe a long shot and for others 400 maybe the normal. The right tool for the job is all that really matters. 👍👍

If you think about all the different cartridges we have in America and how similar they are but we perceive the differences to be vast. It’s kind of amazing. Only an multi-generational endeavor could create such variety that we can all enjoy and discuss.

You are very entertaining. I understood all of this before the video, but I watched until the end. You make great videos

Well. I’ve been watching these guys develop this round and they where shooting 1000 yards and it was staying stable and accurate out that far with a slower heavier bullet and I really think it has some potential when guys start reloading for this round we are going to see some impressive stuff. And really going back to high power big bore PCP air rifles we learned you don’t need a 150grain bullet going 3000fps to hit will power and accuracy out past 100 yards. A well placed shot with a lower power round is very effective. More than people think

If memory serves me right, all the various caliber subsonic whisper cartridges were already developed something like three decades ago. What I think is the current trend is; the taking of existing wildcats and have them SAAMI spec under a new name as "factory" guns and "factory" ammo for those too intimidated with handloading and having custom built guns for wildcats. A recent classic example was the SAAMI spec of the 6mm PPC, but under the new "trendy" name of 6mm ARC. Now everyone wants the "new miracle modern high tech" cartridge even though it's been around since the 70's as a wildcat. It's producing "boutique" products for the buyers of the latest iPhone crowd who believes they're the cutting edge hipsters of the gun world, yet still be convenient for purchasing at the local shop.

Looking forward toan update from you on a gel block test with a 1:1 twist rate. It should be awesome and a continuation of the paradigm shift. Thank you for the consideration Ron.

Thank you 😊

Thanks for the information on this cartridge. A couple of things you might want to mention on this is that the 300 gr. Sierra load may not be a legal hunting cartridge is some states. We require a 900 ft/lbs. of energy at 100 yards to be a legal deer hunting cartridge. Also with the 210 gr. TSX load, most of the monolithic bullet constructions require a 2000 fps. impact velocity to allow them to expand. This round like the 300 Blackout was really designed around the close quarters combat. I do think with the right bullet combination and wt. you could have a very viable close range deer hunting rifle with this cartridge. However even the 300 Blackout will perform as well as the 30-30 Win. at its nominal ranges.

This fits right in with the .450 Bushmaster and the .350 Legend.... If you look at the guys that were hunting in the late 40's 50's and 60's... 30-06 was the "Go To" cartridge. Maybe because they saw how good it was in WW1 and WWII with the 1903 Springfield and M1 Garand.... Later in the late 60's through to the 2000's .308 was the "Go To" great cartridge (and still is)... Maybe because of the 7.62x51 NATO and the M14. Along with the Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70 being widely known as the best Sniper rifles and the .308 being the best round of times??? Now as we are moving fwd and so many folks have embraced the different AR platforms and calibers available in those platforms, and so many being very familiar and proficient with AR's its just happening like it has in the past...The military cartridges have always become popular. Think 45-70 Govt! We are already seeing this with the 6.5 Creedmoor and Im willing to bet that we will see it with the 6.8X51 being fielded by the Army in the M5 service rifle and M250 light machine gun. Ron you are right about a paradigm shift. I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps with the M16A2 from 1992 to 2012 (I never got an M4) and swore I would never own an AR.... Now I have 3 of them... These days Cerakote, M-LOK, slings, rails, night vision, bipods, optics and building your own set up is now as desirable as a beautiful Weatherby or Browning Walnut stock... 20 yrs ago many people thought that suppressors were illegal... Even though they were not, you just didnt see them. You would get laughed at if you had a suppressor on a hunting rifle...Now they are common place. Henry even has threaded barrels on Lever Guns. Im excited about all the new stuff and technology in the gun world. Polymer cased cartridges, affordable night vision, sub sonic ammo, suppressors, new military rifles with 80,000-100,000 psi chamber pressures that have a 10,000 rnd barrel life. Its wild times... I just wish I could keep up with it all.

First time at this channel. Well done video, much better than I guess I expected. I found the host to be interesting, engaging, and well-spoken.

Kevin also helped develop .300 blackout. Before Q LLC he worked for the AAC that helped develop a proposed replacement for the HK MP5. They did not win the contract but Kevin left AAC and founded Q and took that design further and made the Honey Badger in .300 Blackout. Currently I use a suppressed .300 blackout running subsonic as my backup home defense weapon if my shotgun isn't enough. I also hunt pigs with it but with sonic ammo. Much more knockdown than 5.56/223 out of a shorter barrel and I can put more rounds out faster than with a bolt gun. Personally I love the AR platform. I deer hunt with my dad's bolt 300 Win Mag.

Good performing subsonic ammo is a balance between ballistic coefficient and bullet weight limited by the velocity (about 1150fps). .300 blackout does that very well.

I was entirely unimpressed with the 8.6 black on paper and just laughed, then I seen the video of the fast twist on ballistics gel and WOW I did not expect that at all.

thanks for the very good description. that's exactly how I imagined the tool for myself

What a nice analysis

I hunt with a ar15 ... have for many years now ... 6.5 Grendel and 300 blk and .450 bushmaster. I will have a 8.6 soon as the ammo is commonly available. The guns are really light and handy

With a lot of 8.6 loads the bullet actually extends very deeply into the powder column

UK dear hunter here. Generally, shots over two hundred meters are considered unethical here which also coincides with most of the terrain we shoot. We also live in a very crowded country where you really don't want anybody hearing your shot for annoyance and 'help I heard a gunman' reasons. Nearly all hunting is fine with suppressors (we call them moderators) and pour licence authorities expect you to own suppressors for all your rifles. I'm really looking forward to this carriage making it over the pond. It's perfect for us.

Wonderfully informative video> Thank You!

Ron, I've been seeing "Blackouts" in deer camps for years. Usually caused from liquid corn or liquid hops and barely. I think I'll pass on this new Blackout just like I passed on those other Blackouts. Thanks for the info thou. Cheers, Jeff

I think the 1 and 3" twist rate is the key to this thing. Kevin over at Q has taken multiple Big 5 African animals with this cartridge and it's performance is impressive. Ron is correct in saying it's a paradigm shift. This cartridge is MOA past 400 yards, and with modern optics and range finders it will be effective. Is it the best option for an elk at 600 yards, no. Is it effective at reasonable ranges? For sure.

Mr. Spomer, I'm glad to see attitudes about AR's and chassis style firearms changing. They honestly offer a lot to new and old hunters. My father-in-law shoots a 300 RUM, but in his 70's he's not wanting to take the abuse of that canon. I've seen him grab the 300 BLK I bought for him a few times now instead of his howitzer, and I think there are a lot of older, and younger shooters that will do the same with AR platform rifles in the future. They might not have a pretty stock, or nice lines, but chassis and modern sporting rifles are here to stay.

Before anyone starts giving credit for any of these subsonic cartridges, just remember that JD Jones made a slew of them. From the 221 Fireball case, JD developed the 6mm Whisper, 6.5mm Whisper, 7mm Whisper, 300 Whisper, and the 338 Whisper #2. Then from the 7mm Bench Rest cartridge he developed, or redeveloped the 302 Whisper, 338 Whisper, 375 Whisper, and the 416 Whisper. Then from the 458 WinMag he made the 458 Whisper. From the 460 Weatherby Mag he made the 500 Whisper. Then from the 338 Lapua Mag he made the 510 Whisper,

And there’s also the .375 Raptor: a .375 bullet in a necked up .308 win / 7.62x51 brass. Same idea.

Very interesting cartridge!!! I have no doubt that it could pull double duty.. home defense and short/mid range hunting. I'd guess the recoil is quite light too. Sounds like a great idea 🙂

Great video brother.

You are absolutely right about the powder capacity and the bullet seating depth. Its the total amount of powder not where you put it necessarily.

The .338 Fed is truly a missed opportunity. What a superior cartridge that went nowhere.

I'm loving my 8.6 blk bolt action. I'm getting great performance out of the 12" SBR. Sub MOA 350 gr subs, spicy 225 gr TTSX putting out great energy. This round is here to stay and slay. This little shorty is gonna take an Elk this year.

After watching this cartridge get tested I think it’s safe to say it would drop any animal in North America at 100 yards. The twist rate does some crazy stuff, it can sip through multiple gel blocks while still making a pretty good wound cavity.

Excellent content

Looks kinda goofy, just makes me think of the .338 federal being a better option

I thought the 8.6 used a necked 6.5 Creedmoor?

Awesome!

Great video, Sir! Always enjoyable info. Now, I know that this is unrelated, but you know what I'd like to see? Remington's glorious 742 Woodsmaster, chambered in .338-06 A-Square. A Browning autoloader in the same chamber would also be very well received. I'd like to use the Speer 200 gr. Hotcore for deer and black bears, and the Barnes 210 gr TTSX for moose, elk, and grizzly bears. Just a dream for now.

Ron you are definitely not a Fudd. As always I appreciate your perspective and how current you stay with firearms developments.

Outstanding and very objective review of the 8.6. It is a very forward thinking design. We will see if it stands the test in time. I've got to be honest, this old timer believes that his 338-06 and 338 Win Mag will have to be pried off his cold dead hands--for now.

I am smitten with really efficient large caliber cartridges ; the only nagging doubt is bullet performance at the lower velocities when the overwhelming majority are designed to operate at higher velocities/pressures/rotational speeds ...

I think 8.6 blackout could be a great cartridge for hunting open timber where most shots will be under 50 yards but you might get a chance to stretch it out. Chambered in something like the Remington 7600 pump or a fairly light bolt action like the Tikka T3 series, heck even a low cost bolt action like the Savage Axis. If it remains with just a few high end manufacturers though I doubt it'll ever fully catch on.

I have been following the 8.6 development for several years. The round that most people want to compare it too is the 375 Raptor. I am also a big fan of 300blk and being able to double or even triple the effective range for subs and supers with 8.6 is phenomenal. My neighbor went Nilgai hunting in South Texas. You can't bring anything less than 300 Win Mag and they prefer shots to be taken at 100yds or less. The hide on these things like a ballistics rubber retaining wall. Even getting a great shot, my neighbor was underwhelmed with the results and when he got him he immediately traded that gun for 338 Win Mag. Now Kevin Brittingham of Q takes a gun with a 12 inch barrel, half the length of the 24 inch in my neighbors 300WM and drops Nilgai.

Regardless of what you prefer yourself, guns are awesome either way. I absolutely love an old wood stock 30-06 bolt gun, just like I love real old-school lever action guns, but I also love ar10 and ar15 platforms. Theyve all got their place

That Barnes 210 gr. bullet would not be a good choice for hunting because they will no expand at the low velocity of the 8.6 black out! And most of the 338 bullets are made for 338 Winchester Mag velocities not a good choice for hunting.

One good thing that comes out of these ideas that take off is more bullet choices! Look at 30 cal with all the light bullet options now due to 300 blackout.

I will just stick with my .308

I wonder if a 1:3 "gain twist" (like a Carcano) would work better. Anyway, I'm not a fan of more cartridges but people just aren't realizing the advantages of these large bullet/small casing cartridges. They are extremely effective at realistic distances...not to mention that suppression is the future. 300blackout is a 223/556 on steroids but people still can't comprehend it.

If I am not mistaken, the reason the case was shortened and the neck set further back was for magazine compatability. The outside diameter of 338 is the same as the diameter of the neck of 308, and AR10 pmags have guides of a specific size set either side of this area to keep 308 cartridges pointing in the correct orientation. And if I am not mistaken, the parent case of 8.6 blackout is 6.5 Creedmore, not 338 federal. Since 6.5 Creedmore has interior dimensional changes that increase it's power capacity over a normal 308 cartridge

I’m glad you can at least understand. I’m not going to run out and grab an 8.6 blackout, but you said it when it covers the spread for most shots on deer. The only calibers I shoot that aren’t intermediate ones are for milsurps because I don’t “need” something like a .308 or similar to hunt when I usually* don’t have shots over 80-100 yards. *you can find places to do that like in a power line, big clear cut or field.

Another nice video, thanks Ron! In that perspective you should check one of my favorite new sub-sonic/supersonic creations - the .375 Raptor.

slow velocity but ultrahigh spin rate - would definitely be a paradigm shift if this catches on ...the selling point seems to be that terminal effectiveness (combined with lower recoil); probs good on hogs and nice to be able to hunt them with an AR style rifle for fast follow-up shots

I love ARs all day long. When it comes to hunting White tail and Elk size game. The bolt gun and lever action is the best and sexy option all day. Wood and steel is an American icon!

I'm loving this. The 338 Federal is one of my favorites, but having something to run in an AR platform that's a little easier on the should will be nice.

I love big, sectionally dense, bullets. I don’t know if this will be successful, but a conventional deer rifle with a 12” bbl. Certainly gets my attention. Keep up the good work. Your content is well researched and presented.

This is interesting, post Afghanistan a lot of the cognisant in Australia started thinking of .338 squad automatic weapons WITH very good long range accuracy. The consensus being that either the 7.62 nato or the 300 blackout would be the calibre the remainder used. NOW you’ve given us 308 Blackout to consider, that retains consistency in calibre, standardises production of long arm Infantry barrels (assuming that barrel design is optimised and then standardised). Oh we are in some interesting times. I footnote that the Infantry WILL carry a sub-sonic silenced long arm for dogs, sentries, cameras, drones and the like.

Yep, I can agree with that. Where i hunt in the brush of tx, most shots are between 20 and 100yrds...maybe 200 if you have a large ranch or something. And I only need the power to drop a 150lb or less white tail or pig. Ar works fine, 308 is kinda overkill, 300blk works very well and with the supporssor is much more friendly to everyone else on the lease.

Just ran a chart for the 210-grain super g-1, altitude 3500', max ordinate 4" (I have been using this successfully for 59 yrs. I know you like a 3" max ordinate.) It reached 4" at 125 yds, "0" at 210 and 4" low at about 240yds. 8.4" low at 275yds.'thoght you might be interested. It still has 1342ftlbs but looks like it would wreak havoc with that spin!

8.6 subsonic is an spendy specialized tool. That 338Fed is an outstanding design and while I don't own one it's perhaps one of the best hunting cartridges ever devised considering the bullets available in 338 and it's performance in propelling them in that efficient sized 308win case. Too bad it didn't catch on because it try does check so many boxes and I wish you'd do a spotlight on it.

Im digging that new 8.6 blackout

I love my AR-10 8.6 and I just got my bolt action back from my gunsmith. Gonna start load development on it this weekend.

I loved your remarks on the whole „fudd“ situation. Most people in the gun community are pretty open minded to other opinions. Have it your way and be polite, we are all on the same team at the end of the day