In this video we try different holds with our little XS19 and see which hold works out the best! This is just a fun little video we thought we'd film in the run up to our Rotex review.
In my humble inexperienced opinion this is the greatest video a new spring rifle owner can watch. Marksmanship is a really complicated art. Thanks for the advice Daniel!
Hi Vaios! Thanks ever so much for the kind compliment it really means a lot. Springer shooting is an art form like you've said yourself you usually can't just pick one straight up and get sub 5p groups straight away. This is why we made the video to show that sometimes only the most minor adjustments in hold can make what you think is an inaccurate rifle into an accurate one!
Thank you so much for this test ! My normal tool of choice for pest/vermin is a .222 T3 but unfortunately it's not suitable for the egg thieves in our chicken run. So I bought a gas sprung xs-19 which printed the most exquisite 1/4 choke patterns with all the pellets that I have, holding it as a have held all my previous air rifles. After seeing your excellent test on I'm now confident I can fix the problem 😁 Many thanks and best regards Mark
A trigger job on this rifle and the results are so much better, I really love working on these triggers I strip them down to every last part check them polish them space them add better parts and they are really good, but it's the accuracy that is transformed it really does make that much better.
Hi Robert, the trigger they come with is... a bit mediocre at best, with a lot of ours that come in the sears don't even reset if you ease off the trigger which can be somewhat concerning to say the least! With tweaks though like you've said they can be pretty pukka and it makes them a far more accurate rifle. Thanks Robert and all the best.
Hi Alan! They laughed at us and our bouncy guns before.. let's see how they feel once the air runs out and their seals go. We'll be the ones laughing soon mate we just need to wait until the time is right haha.
I was trained to shoot in the military, the hold they used (pre bullpup) was as you did with your best group with a small addition. When ready to fire give a gentle twist (with both hands) inwards towards the stock to steady the sight picture...firm but comfortable hold has never let me down, even standing unsupported. Also to note when unsupported stance is important too. Never was a fan of the artillery hold, the reason artillery was allowed to rock back on recoil was purely because, until the advent of recoilless, they had no way to completely control that force. Artillery was less accurate so I have never seen how releasing control of your gun works.
Fantastic comment thanks Muppeteer. The supposed science behind the artillery hold for springers is that the pellet hasn't left the barrel before the recoil has set in and so by not allowing the rifle to recoil freely you end up interfering with the rifle's natural behaviour. The issue I have with this is that in my mind if the rifle is almost unsupported then it's free to fling pellets all over the place. Even the PCP's can "flick" pellets all over during the shot cycle.
Totally agree...No one should fire an uncontrolled or even semi controlled weapon. know your weapon and learn to be part of it...the gun should be part of you not a beast to let roam free...maybe the 'Drop short' hold is the reason people don't get on with springers@@bigdansairguns83
@@bigdansairguns83 I think the reasoning behind the artillery hold is eliminating human input as far as possible during the shot cycle. With a high velocity rifle there is an extremely short time between the hammer dropping on the firing pin and the bullet exiting the muzzle. Provided you control the initial recoil and maintain sight picture for a couple of milliseconds there is little opportunity for the shooter to disturb the aim. PCP rifles have much lower velocity and a longer period of time between hammer drop on the air valve and pellet exiting the muzzle. However there's negligible recoil, so as long as you keep it on target, all's good. Springers have all sorts of movement going on during the shot cycle. When cocked the piston is to the rear, when fired the spring pushes the piston forward, creating recoil and shifting the weight forward, dropping the muzzle, there's then rebound at the end of the compression stroke, flipping the muzzle up. All of this happens with the pellet still in the barrel. The theory with the artillery hold is if you let the rifle do what it wants, the pellet exits the muzzle at the same point during the shot cycle each time, giving a consistent group. You then adjust the sights accordingly. I think that probably works well for novices, particularly with hold sensitive springers, as it's very easy to change hand position, grip, cheek weld, cant during trigger pull etc without noticing the subtle changes, sending pellets everywhere. The looser the hold the better in this case. However once you become experienced you naturally begin to hold the rifle in a stable, repeatable, way. It's repeatability of the hold, with exactly the same positioning and grip that makes the rifle shoot consistently. Once you get a feel for a rifle the 1:5 grip you describe in the video is about the best hold for control and consistency. Hope that made sense!
Hey Dusty! Springer's can be frustrating beasts until you learn how to handle them. I've always used the "point system" to remember how to hold each rifle and it has helped me greatly so I thought I'd share it. Let me know how you get on.
@@bigdansairguns83 Oh that’s for sure but I really enjoy the challenge. PCP rifles are very appealing but personally I think I would get bored with one, being just a casual target shooter. It’s more important to me to master basic marksmanship rather than having the latest technology. I’m sure I would think differently if I was into hunting or pest control. Anyway I will try out this approach and let know how I get on, in the meantime BIG thanks Big Dan for the videos :)
Excellent vid , better results then I could dream of , even the worst target .. that said , years ago ( 70's ) I was pretty descent with open sights .. these days , well , its bench rest stuff mainly ... looking forward too the RM8 review for sure . Ok theres loads on the tube , but YOUR reviews add that little " extra " '. Ps ... the fly on the target ( bottom left ) early on in the vid ... I couldn't have resisted it ... Keep up the good work Dan ... loving it ( btw , the mrs says your a bit of a dish ) ( thats old person speak for handsome )
Hahaha Hi Mark! I can't lie mate I didn't see the fly but trust me if I did he'd be minced where he stood. Or I'd try anyways haha. Shooting unrested can be a challenge but in my opinion it's not as hard as it's made out to be, don't take your first groups to heart and just keep changing your holds until you find one you can get consistent groups with and then practice the trigger control as yanks and pulls with that unrested causes worse flyers than if firing off a rest. The most important big though is to take your time and most importantly be sure to have fun. Once it all clicks it's a fantastic feeling. That being said though mate being able to shoot well with open sights is one hell of a talent. I'm not terrible with opens but you'd have spanked me back in the day (and probably would now too!). I shan't comment on the Mrs's comment Mark as I don't run that fast and you're a better shot than me haha. All the best mate and you and the Mrs look after each other.
This is a great video. I've got an XS19, and wondered why a light artillery hold often reaped scattered grouping. My HW99 definitely prefers the very light shouldering & artillery hold for best grouping, but I found the XS19 preferred being held a touch tighter like you witnessed. Love your unbiased & no bullshit explanations, & keep up the good work.
Hi Harry! I'm glad you liked the video and it's interesting to hear that our XS19's behave the same. I really wanted to do this video for a long time as it keeps being said that the artillery hold is the best hold for any springer and as we both know that is simply not the case. I like to review things in laymans terms if I can mate, there's a saying I love that goes "Keep it simple, stupid!" and trust me I'm very good at being simple, but you've probably already learned that eh? Haha cheers mate.
You're welcome Michael, springers can be annoying beasts at times but once you find the right hold for them they're so rewarding to shoot. Cheers mate!
Hi Dan , Strange ! I only got notification of this video today , weird ! , no problem though ,I've watched it now , a change from your normal revues , but welcome none the less, it definitely had some interesting results . Sorry if I'm being a bit pedantic but (& I may well be wrong ) I was under the impression that any form of hold where You allow the air rifle to have a degree of natural movement back & forth was classed as the artillery hold in much the same way that an artillery piece barrel recoils backward when fired before returning (more or less) to it's original position . Anyway pedantic's out of the way , I have to agree that every rifle will differ somewhat just as some barrels prefer pellet X as opposed to pellet Y . We must also remember that different people have different levels of strength and reach so each of us is as bad (Varied) as the rifles we use for being different & probably worse, simply because there are more people than air rifles. We're All the Same - - Just Different !. Anyway Thanks Dan & crew (if any) looking forward to whatever You have planned in the future , Stay Safe Stay Well , Everyone & if You can, Keep on Shooting .
Hi Richard, I'm glad you liked our somewhat different video this time. The artillery hold is usually (in airgun circles at least) considered to be a hold where the leading hand is wide open with the rifle rested upon the palm. The second hold in the video includes a more standard where 1:1 is still light in the forehand but the fingers are still naturally wrapped around the stock so there's still some contact. Cheers Richard and the same to you mate look after yourself and all the best to you and the family.
@@bigdansairguns83 Hi Dan , Personally I use the 1:1 or a 1:2 dependent on which rifle is being used ,with the Remy Express & old Hawk MKII its the 1:1 but the HW 90 needs 1:2 probably due to the weight , (I'm only 5' 7" and proverbial 10st wet through so thats probably part of it ) . I hope You received the Old Wasp Pellets I sent to you in the hope that the Webley can show the Hun What For ! they were some My late father in law had stashed away .Since then Iv'e actually found some on line at Glasgow Angling Center web site , there only about £7 a can and the tin looks identical to the Old one I kept it even says .22 5.6mm and (apart from dents & scratches ) and the price on the Old Tin ? £ 1.95 for 500 , but they were from the late 70s/early 80s . anyway keep up the good work Stay Safe & keep on shooting ! (Both Guns & Videos ) . Thanks again for the excellent series of air gun tests & revues .
Well that point system worked out a treat for me this morning. I use a TX200 mk3 in 1.77 and an Hw99 in 2.2 off a bag on a bench as a rule. I wanted to apply this technique to the 99 both on the bench (no bag) and freehand mainly because the TX is just too heavy for freehand shooting for me. Having tried various grip strengths and pressures into the shoulder I found five out of ten for both worked best for me with the 99. One of my most enjoyable mornings thanks to trying this out and my groupings were vastly improved. Thanks for the tips again it really payed off for me :)
Hi Dusty! I'm so glad to hear that this worked out for you and thanks ever so much for letting me know how you got on. Sometimes springers can be fickle buggers and without something as simple as a 1-10 point system like this it can be difficult to remember how it likes to be held. Fingers crossed after a while muscle memory will kick in and you'll naturally hold it the way it likes it. Thanks Dusty and I'm glad our quirky little video helped.
Thanks mate! The WW unit really transforms these little rifles. I thought I'd do something a little different from the norm and make a sciencey video for once. Cheers mate!
@@bigdansairguns83 great work. Good honest review again. The low priced rifles with a bat of a tune & new trigger is as good as anything in My eyes , & you definitely get your use out of it.
Cracking little carbine! .25 cal. I've got a fascination for, and want one. Have for years, as you said it is under used sub 12ft/lbs and being a lifetime. 22 fan, a little more holdover and that's it!
Hi Homepride flour grader, oops sorry, I mean Dan 😄, interesting video, hold sensitive springers, my walther LGU likes to be held very gently,hardly touching the shoulder, but my AA Prosport prefers to be pulled tighter into the shoulder, 4 springers all slightly different holds, so when I go to the range it takes a good few shots to work out which one likes what,only have a short back garden, about 13 yards so it pistols only, by the time we get back to the range I’ll have to learn all over again, stay safe Dan and keep em coming.
Hi Lynden! Hahahaha brilliant I'll be stealing that. They're all different aren't they? Granted it can be a pain in the backside but I find it gives them character. Here's a question for you though mate, as an owner of both an LGU and a Prosport which one do you find the most forgiving to shoot? You're possibly the first person I've spoken to that owns both so it'd be interesting to hear your take on things. Cheers mate.
Hi again Dan, hmmm difficult one this, but I think I’ll give it to the Prosport but only just, the LGU is a lovely gun but a little more hold sensitive than the Prosport, mine are both 177, wether 22’s make a difference or not I don’t know.
My artillery hold doesn’t work on my hw 99 or webley gas ram , I grab the front of of stock tight and give it slight , very slight shoulder room then they are both very accurate, I shot a fly on my target couple of days ago with my webley gas ram at 46 feet , and that gun has the worst unajustable trigger I’ve ever used , cheers Shane uk 🇬🇧 and I’ve been to work everyday in this lockdown , and it hasn’t made a blind difference to my life , but respect to others that it has
Hahahaha this made me chuckle. You've got me found out Reg, my name is actually a bit like what the Americans do with people called "tiny" that are 6ft8, I'm just backwards (in more ways than one probably!). I'm 4ft3 really but I'm just handy with a camera lens. Cheers mate.
Hahaha,...good one,...well Tiny, I had to go cook supper, so I'll be back a little later to finish watching this video. THEN I'll come back here and terll you what I think of this one....( I'm having a chuckle now as I write this ) Back again; and I liked this, Inever thought of doing this, and I think you're on to something here. As soon as the weather warms up a couple of degrees warmer, I am certainly going to try this out with a couple of my Springer rifles. Thanks for your time and effort in doing this video Dan, it is appreciated!
@@regsparkes6507 You're welcome Reg and I hope it helps! Also just think.. if I can make myself seem tall it makes you wonder what I can do to the size of a 5p piece haha.
Thanks for your efforts and time something interesting to watch, Dan , I am currently doing some videos on my 3 inexpensive guns, webley vmx dr, Gamo Phox pcp and victory cp2 ,, the good thing for me is I’ve spent about 7 hrs so far on editing,cos I’m crap at it for my not brilliant RU-vid channel ,, I’m getting in my mid to senior yrs and me and computers are not good friends , but I try ,, l o l , look forward to your next vid, and hopefully this lock down won’t go on to much longer, I’m still working everyday in a empty building and time really drags ,, thanks shaneweightman. Shane uk 🇬🇧
Hi Shane, I'm glad you liked the video mate, I'm really looking forward to your videos mate especially on the VMX and the Phox. Which video editor are you using? I use Filmora and it's actually really simple to use. Yeah the lockdown while essential is making quite a few people lose their marbles, I think that could be more due to the constant close proximity to the Mrs than anything else though haha. Thanks Shane and look after yourself out there mate.
Big Dan's Airguns , cheers for the reply , Dan , using Sony Vegas 11 that my daughter bought me 5 yrs ago, and swop between that and shotcut, problems start putting video ,in video and then syncing them togeather there’s loads of effects you can do , if ur brain can handle it , l o l , on the positive side , since getting back into shooting , I have learnt a lot thanks to youtube , and can’t believe I’ve ordered some weighing scales , to weigh my pellets , and plan on buying a chronograph, and various bits when we are free to roam again , take care Shane
Thanks Dan, this was different mate, and i found it very interesting, people have to remeber yes there oare good guid lines out there for us, but Nothing is set in stone, Cheers mate, and of course stay safe , Cheers
Bull shit don't lie crap like Welsh Willy's tuning kit . Crap Dan review a proper air gun smk I had 2 of the same shit shit he shooting now from brand new 3 weeks of shoot 1
Tin of pellets the mane spring Snaped in 2 . Had new one from shop replacement same thing the spring Snaped after 10 days. Smk fuck off have more chance hitting rabbit to death with the but . Fucking gun made of plasticine 😁
thank s dan another great video ! have really only ever shop from a prone sort of position , more hunting then target shooting ! this does conferm a theorey of mine (sort of) every so often over the last 25 years plus when shooting almost straight up the recoil acts funny not all the time but you can definatley tell when it happens , not so present on hw 95 as it was with the bsa mercury , i often thought it was a comination of shot cycle and maybe the thickness of the stock from gun to gun or just the grip strength or lack of, have tinkerd with my grip and hand position to piont of ballance from gun to gun over the years and never quit cracked it? i do try to never get in to that position , but as any hunter knows you cant plan for nature all the time, well done dan mint mesage too !
Hi Kevin, you can definitely drive yourself mad with springers at times. How many times have you thought you've got it nailed down and then you get that one weird recoil pattern and it throws a shot off wildly. After that I seem to either shrug it off and recover or it'll curse the rest of my day haha. I try to keep the point system in my head though and it seems to help quite a bit. I think after a while I can get too full of myself and I start to grip the rifle too much. We'll get it sorted one day mate I'm sure!
A lot of it is about getting to know the gun & its own little foibles. Ten cars or products of the same make will perform slightly differently due to the tolerances within a Spec'. So called "Perfect Rifles" from a production line were often given to Presidents, Royalty & other dignitaries!!
I have a bsa lightning in .177 and i get the best results using the same hold that you used for your best group, its the spring version not the grt version, tried one didn't like it , nice one dan 😁👍
Hi Phillip! It's great to see you here again mate. The Lightning's are beautiful rifles aren't they? It's good to hear that I'm not alone when it comes to the standard/comfortable hold vs normal hold then. I find the artillery hold to flip the muzzle too much on lighter air rifles. Gripping it and ripping it was fun though haha. Cheers mate!
yes thx every one is saying artillery hold !so i was ready to practice this like hell, but my best results in the past have been both elbows stuck out ! which prob looks daft and can only be held for a few seconds.
Hey tdf! The Artillery hold is still something that is worth practising but it does not work for all air rifles as you can see here. If it feels more comfortable try going back to a more natural hold but experiment regarding how tight you hold onto the rifle. Cheers mate and all the best.
Dan, everyone should have to learn to shoot a springer before they're allowed to shoot a PCP. They can call themselves a marksman then. The springer is a disciplinarian tutor. The PCP is a baby-wheels, stabilized bike ride into shooting. Talking of babies, I use what I call the 'new-born baby hold' i.e holding well enough not to drop it but not tight enough to hurt it. I nearly gave up at one, no not one, but several painful stages , nearly hurling my Weihrauch HW35 springer into the river! Now I look upon it with affection and although I am not as accurate with it, (consistently), as I am with my Walther LGV Pro Sport springer, (which is as good at tack driving as my Air Arms PCP), I am grateful I bit the bullet, (pellet?) and persevered. You are the best reviewer on RU-vid and there are many to admire.
Artillery hold is OK for Artillery - 24 inch Naval shells from 26 miles out at sea!! For my air rifle shooting, it's tight to my shoulder & a firm grip on the fore end. Not right for everyone, but suits me!!. Did you monitor your breathing on the shots??
Hey Joker Badguy. Absolutely mate, it makes a huge difference to how your rifle groups. Sometimes a crap shooting rifle can turn into a laser just with a slightly lighter/tighter hold. Have a play mate and let me know how you get on.
I found this really interesting as I did the same test at the range, although halfway through I forgot what pressure I was supposed to be using.......... then it started to rain
Hey mate. Hahaha if that's not sods law then I don't know what is! Try using the point system that I was using in the video. I find it helps to no end when it comes to remembering the best holds. I hope you're all dried out now mate. All the best.
Hi David, sorry mate I was also just finishing an exorcism at the same time. I think it was the train a few fields down that was our culprit, I'll be muting the target sections in the future so no more weird noises. Cheers David.
@@bigdansairguns83 ha ha, yes, I can hear a train or two now you've said it. I thought it was a pack of wolves or dogs howling during my first viewing..! I've experimented with holds and rests in the past with my springers, similar to this video though, the front end lightly rested between thumb and index finger and butt secure but not firm in the shoulder gives my best groups. Even using sticks, my best groups are still with hand on the sticks with gun rested in the thumb/index finger 'V"'. With the forend straight on the stick V, my point of impact shifted to a 10 o'clock position of my zero oddly.. Keep up the good work mate.. :-)
hallo Dan. Me using 8:10 on my HW77K .177 and 6:10 on my HW 77k .22 cal and it works. But I have to have a tight grip around the front end ! You call it standard hold !? Thanks for your tips !!!
Hi Carsten. The type of hold is a standard rifle hold but you can adjust your grip to better suit the hold sensitivity of a rifle. It looks like your HW's like a tight grip especially that .177! It'd be interesting to know what power they're running at as a higher power/potentially faster spring could speed up the shot cycle making them more grip friendly. I'm glad it worked for you mate.
@@bigdansairguns83 Hi. My .177 was a 6fpe ( max. in Germany)from Germany and I tuned it up to 17-18 fpe( 2. zero at 40 yds 1/2 " group , 1.zero at 12 yds) here in Norway ( No restrictions in power) But tuned it down to 12 fpe( because shot cycle being to hard and the gun was to loud) now 1.zero 12yds and 2. zero at 33 yds. The .22 cal. always being a 12 fpe gun and it is a pleasure to use 1. zero 12 yds and 2. zero at 30 yds using 14.35 gr. JSB´s or JSB´s Exact Jumbo RS 13.43 gr. 18 gr. are to heavy in this gun. 1 " group at 50yds
Hey Kevin! I really can't say much mate as we're all on lockdown so I can't get anything in. We do have a Warhawk left though I'll see if I can get it filmed. Thanks mate and all the best!
@@bigdansairguns83 same to you bud stay healthy keep sane!!! best wishes for you and yours , we can all wait as long as needed for another great review, dont feel the need to be out unless you need to mucker , like your vidoes dan but they wouldnt be the same without you in them ! plus it would ba a bit of a shit watch just stairing at a riffle doing nothing for 20 mins lol . tom says hi , keep well mate
@@bigdansairguns83 I love your long-winded descriptions (a compliment not an insult) and I hang on every word. Looking forward to your next 'nice' instructional and entertaining video and thanks for the reply.
@@LordWilsonVILLA Thanks mate! Next up we'll be reviewing the Walther Rotex but I'm sure we can sort something instructional out. Besides we've just made a 9mm blank target and it'd be a travesty if we couldn't think of something to put it to use eh?
@@bigdansairguns83 GREAT! I was thinking of buying the Walther Rotex the one thing that put me off - it only has a ten-shot magazine in .22 cal. I'll decide after your next video. Cheers 🍻
Please help me keep a bit sane & reply to my email re a Scope & some pellets. Not after any freebies - just need to keep plinking in the back garden whilst still shielding from the virus!! I'm one of those Clinically extremely vulnerable people & need something else instead of just Telly time. I have COPD & had a near fatal heart attack 7 years ago. Postage price is not a problem. Thanks in advance. Martin.
