@@IlieTornesThat's something that really confuses me: I learned in school that Greeks thought that you only went to the underworld if you had a funeral, so when did Odysseus have the time to have that for all of his men? Besides, you had to burn the moody, but most of the men were eaten or squished/eaten by Polyphemus. Ironically, the only one who could've gone realistically was Elpenor since Circe could've arranged his funeral out of guilt.
That Penelope and Telemachus was not only bringing it back to the "what do you fight for" in the first song It was an answer to "When does the reason become the blame?" In the first song, it was the reason, now...
I think Odysseus' issue is that he cannot believe that Man and Monster can coexist within an individual. In the case of Polyphemus, the bloodshed started once his sheep had been killed. Polyphemus is a monster for killing but a man for protecting. Circe is, in some ways, a monster for turning every man into a pig, but she's just a (wo)man protecting her peace. Poseidon is the only case that doesn't really fit and I think showcases Odysseus' reasoning crumbling. Poseidon is a god--therefore, he cannot be a man. Then Odysseus uses his personal example to justify his shame about both the horse and the infant, and cementing his belief that one individual cannot be both man and monster. Odysseus thinks the monster will help him get what he wants, but he didn't consider if the monster's ruthlessness can help him stay a man after the deed is done. Anyway he is the monster rawr rawr rawr
in the song no longer you i s clear that he changed and will not turn back he cannot be the same man he was and now being the monster is the only way to keep going and survive but he is being the monster to achieve a goal to come back to his family the same thing he always wanted but now he will be ruthless to others to have mercy towards himself and his family
I think Poseidon falls in the category of duty. He doesn't necessarily care about his son's plight, but he feels duty-bound to avenge it. You can feel obliged to someone even if you don't care for them. And if people learn to fear his retaliation, they are less likely to go after his other children, so it would be fulfilling the duty he feels towards them (whether it be because he is their father or just because someone hurt what he considered to be in his territory/domain).
Posideon does fit. Posideon only destroyed the fleet after Odysseus harmed Polyphemus ( his son) and boasted about it . Posideon viewed it as a slight and that is why he retaliated .
I think I disagree with your assessment that Odysseus believes they can't coexist. I think the song illustrates that he now believes there is/has to be a duality and he has been applying it wrong. The song is a declaration that he will become a monster to foes and the world but still be " just a man" to his crew . He literally says, " If I became a monster to everyone BUT us would that get us home again" which I would say is also a call back to the lyric," I am just a man trying to go home" in " Just a Man" and further demonstrating that he now believes being a man and monster can coexist. The problem is that Odyessus is still demonstrating black and white thinking . Before , he thought he had to be either a man or a monster. Now he believes he is both and has to be both but he will be able to turn it off and on. He's going to learn it's not that simple and he's wrong in part 2 which is going to cause him to continue to grapple with his identity.
@@sebastiansepulveda547 it’s an April fool joke, where he said that he’ll cut monster off the underworld saga because it’s too dark so he make a new version of monster and the lyrics are “I am the monster rawr rawr rawr”
Hope you go watch Gigi's brilliant animatic for this as well, even if you don't record a reaction for it, it's still worth the watch! EDIT FROM FUTURE ME: Oh of course you kept it for your joint reaction for Casper. Your reactions were just as good as I expected!
Gigi's animatic is amazing, but for once there's some very real competition - Rochi has a rougher art style but the way they convey Odysseus' struggle with what's left of himself and his morality is heart wrenching.
Yeah, basically the point is that the actions he's describing are monstrous actions, but the people performing said actions are doing so in order to protect themselves and the people they care about. They don't worry about guilt, remorse, or right or wrong. They're doing what they have to do in order to keep their personal peace. Thus why Odysseus comes to the conclusion he does, he recognizes that being a monster doesn't mean you're uncaring or without feeling, it means you're doing what is necessary, regardless of how awful, to ensure your safety and the safety of those you care for. So if he wants to get home, to get his crew home, he must become the monster and stop showing mercy to enemies.
If you compare Polyphemus and John Wick, you can see how he would go ape-poop when loosing his favorite sheep. If anyone comes into my home, takes off one of my kitties and then goes "Oops, here's a bottle of wine" we are not gonna be cool. Pets are family.
And that is the moment when the Prophets words came true. He will eventually make it home but he will be totally unrecognizable to his wife. (no longer you)
I don't know if you noticed, but in Monster, the melody "if I became the monster..." is actually from *Polites'* song Open Arms. It shares a motif with "I can see you're getting nervous, so do yourself a service, and try to relax my friend" and other sections of that song, like when Odysseus sings "If we don't get back safely, my men will turn this place into blazes" so its such an interesting parallel. It's almost as if Odysseus is remembering Polites' advice but choosing to turn away from it, while also harking back to a time Odysseus threatened to commit 'monstrous' actions in order to 'get back safely.' Jorge's writing is truly ingenious.
it ends that way too! from what I've noticed when listening to the full Act on repeat, is the final note of Monster is the starting note in Horse and the Infant!!! Just thought it was cool enough to share haha
I love how monster calls back to the 4 major evils, one for each previous saga. Of course Polyphemus, Poseidon, curce, and of course Odysseus from the troy saga. Its such a nice tie in,
It's not human, it's not human to be a monster, for whatever's stupid sake and excuse, what kind of retribution is he seeking out? A good father and a good human or god in this case chastises and teaches his child when they've done something wrong and are going on the wrong way, Polyphemus was a monster and did terrible things out of a misunderstanding and did not let it pass or accept that it was a mistake and the resolution that was given and chose to kill all 600 hundred men for one sheep (he didn't achieve what he wanted which was to kill 600 hundred of them but he still killed quite a few, and still that was his true intention which is what he intended and would have done no matter what, he simply didn't get to do that only because of the lotus and Odysseus's plan), not even killing one of the men for the killed sheep would have been justified, he only wanted blooshed and was bloodthirsty, he's a monster, but then again why should Poseidon be a responsible and good father and teach his son what's right and what's wrong and to choose and go on the right way/path and chastise him and correct him when he does something wrong so he can be better and a good person when he is a monster himself and he's everything but that? Everything but what he should be? Like father like son, at least definitely in this case. I'm tired of people trying to justify actions and thoughts that are clearly totally, absolutely and logically wrong or twisted even more so because of something that they love like a character or characters, a story, a mythology or a culture, etc, which doesn't justify any bad things anyway, I get this is a musical and I love this musical with all my heart, and that’s taking into account that I'm not even a musical person and I normally don't like musicals in general, but I genuinly love this, I love the music (which varies a lot too from song to song), the lyrics (which has a lot of thought and are very well written and exposed) and everything, it's all just so well made, with their own instruments and sounds for everything that distinguish different moments and characters even sometimes before they are present and appear in the song itself (or a future song) foreshadowing the future and what's going to happen, and also all of the callbacks and tender moments with Penelope and Telemachus, it's all just so very well made and thought, but that doesn't mean that I won't be able to distinguish and separate clear good actions and thoughts from wrong and bad ones, I'm a person with strong morals and sense of justice, and if anything that's one thing that I don't regret at all and that I wouldn't ever regret and that I think that is something very needed in todays world and people but that it is sadly very lacking (like things like empathy and mercy for everything except oneself too, since the world is full of selfishness and pride too), one doesn't even have to try and look around to realize it, it'll hit you in the face, you can't escape that dark reality because we live in the world so we can't escape the world and what's inside it and inside people and the great lack of anything good (which doesn't mean that there's nothing good, I ain't saying that, but it's something very lacking today), any kind of fiction or any kind of story in general isn't going to make me loose sight of that, of righteousness and of morals and of what's truly right or wrong and it isn't going to make me stop distinguishing and identifying good and bad things both inside fantasy/fiction stories and reality, past, present and future included, then I wouldn't be what a human is supposed to be and learn to be better than yesterday everyday like a human should, but I would stop being a human, what we are supposed to be and what we are made to be and I would become a monster (which isn't right at all), if you strip everything that makes you human, all the emotional, mental and spiritual capacities and abilities that make you human what you have left is not even an animal, but a beast, and I don't mean beast in the sense of an animal, but in the sense of a bestial monster, a human could be the best thing or the worst thing in the world, a true blessing or a true curse, like an angel or a demon on Earth, sadly we usually choose the latter and waste all of our great potential and what we should and are made to be
@@disableddragonborn Keep in mind, there are a lot of reasons. Monsters ressurect, so if he'd been killed, he wouldn't really be gone. And Polyphemus is known to be the weakest/smallest/runtiest Cyclops. Those Sheep were sent by Poseidon to be Polyphemus' friends because the other Cyclopi treat him like shit. They see he's missing his eye, and they sorta say, "Oh, if no one did it, you did it to yourself. Shut the fuck up." So Odysseus only made his life and disabilities WORSE when killing him would've been more merciful than permanently maiming him.
KILLING a monster in greek mythos is rather common point and accepted even if said monster is a child of a god. They'd eventually just reform over time. But what Odysseus did was decidedly worse. Maiming Polyphemus and boasting about it was basically a slight to Poseidon. That his kids weren't worthy of death.
@@bradleybarnett1469 Monsters only resurrect in Percy Jackson. That was a plot device to let Percy face the same monsters that appear in the myths. It's not taken from mythology or the Odyssey.
I love how he doesn’t realize what the message of epic is until THAT MOMENT! it truly is perfect ❤ welcome to the downfall buddy get your popcorn we are about to watch a villain get his butt home!
This actually helped me make sense of why THAT is the message Odysseus is a villain! Act 1 was his villain origin, and Act 2 will be his villain arc Ok, villain protagonist, let's do this!
@@beastwriter3915to be fair it depends on the point of view, some people who believe in the ideal of "the end justifyies the means" aka Machiavellism, can simply see Odysseus as a hero, because he'll do whatever is necessary to get home, but that doesn't make him necessarily evil
Already gotta say that you NEED need NeEeEeEeD to watch Gigi's animatic to it. I believe it may well be the best EPIC animatic made yet! I know it ain't no competition, and they're all great in their own way, but that one was so astonishing that I had to take a long break after watching it to just process it and be in awe hah! Would be truly lovely if you made a vid reacting to it, but even if you don't, or it's Patreon only, I'll be glad to know you also got to see that masterpiece 💙🖤💙
@@Apophis.004 I'd expect part 2 at minimum at the end of summer, maybe somewhere during the fall but most likely (if miracle doesn’t happen) is the end of the year since it the beginning of part 2
the problem is this is the world with Greek gods, open arms gets you killed by asshole gods and monsters they spawned, I do wish Odysseus was better, but he was made by this world and from his perspective taking on naive advice from his friend got everyone killed. Remember most of that came from the guilt of his killing the infant and was directly opposed to the years of Athena teaching him to be the ruthless killer.
Like poseidon said, “the line between nativity and hopelessness is…” (forgot the exact quote) in the world Odysseus lives in, if you are naive, you die.
My thought process on Poseidon, is that for him to make sure that other gods don't see less of him, and try to fight him, or allowing more mortals to do what they please against him, he needs to be ruthless, cause if he doesn't more people will hurt his kids, and not take his word as seriously. Yes i do think that his reasoning his the more monstrous of the ones given, but i think there is still a reasoning behind it, that makes sense.
I had to learn that lesson the hard way. Respect can only be engendered through fear. You don't have to be a tyrant, but you need to keep people in line with threats and punishment if you don't want them to see you as weak.
That's how I see it too. Odysseus wronged Poseidon by blinding Polyphemus... and not even giving him an honorable death in combat. By taking horrible revenge, Poseidon makes sure that others don't make the same mistake, and by doing so he is protecting his children from future harm. That's not just pride.
8:38 spoiler The only thing i can think of is Antonius' hold him down. "Hold us down while the throne gets colder, Hold us down while we slowly age; Hold us down while the boy gets bolder, Where the hell is our pride and our rage?"
Mid-watching thought: I'm sure you're going to get this by the end of the video, but I don't think the song is questioning as much what makes someone become a monster, but IF being the monster is the best way to make it out alive. So yeah, the examples given for the Cyclops, Circe and Poseidon still don't make them good people, but the real question there is "Being like that makes them feel bad? Or are they okay with being monsters because they know that's the way to survive?"
Fun fact: most people have headcannons like this one where Polites wears a headband, and one he dies Odysseus takes and wears it. Until this song where he tears it off.
11:34 When I first listen to this part I was like "JORGE BREATH" like it's genuinely jaw dropping, it's such a fascinating saga. the whole show is amazing but I can't wait omg I want more epic😭
I think it’s even closer a callback than that. If I remember correctly, the kitties are actually “one FUMED with RAGE as you’re conSUMED by AGE” (emphasis mine).
Pretty sure I saw Jorge in a clip saying that the "end goal" for Odysseus is to become more ruthless. So from that POV Monster is a good thing, our protagonist is becoming stronger 👍
Cyclops avenging his friend and knowing he's done him right and Circe learning to be colder when she got older are such good parts! 👏👏 Then Odysseus questioning his wooden horse because in real world romans (who thought their ancestors were from Troy) hated Odysseus because he did that and was a coward in doing so! 😁
I love this musical, and I love its message. Jorge has talked about how it's Odysseus learning in his world. Mercy often fails because it's a world to full of war. But to take the message and apply it into your life it's, a story asking. When you stop being merciful, when you've used every peaceful solution. And failed. And as a result hurt the people you love were who were truly innocent. When do you become violent? When do you hurt the bad to same the good. When do you become the monster to protect what's yours. It's also why I love how Odysseus brings up the horse in hie comparisons. He did that. He at the start has already killed hundreds, so why couldn't he do the same when his friends and crew were in danger ?
Even if you have already watch this a while ago, now that you got up to day in youtube, i can now officially give you this Winion badge- Finally welcome! You'll be stuck here forever!😊💙 Now that you finished (for now) i know that you and Caster have reacted to a cut song called Your light, i thought that while you waited, you could react to the cut song Ismarus. It has a lot of Hamilton vibes and it was meant to be before Your light. Anyways, we'll see you next saga!⚡
The transition from Jay singing along to the lyrics to the animatic with the lyrics was SO damn cool!! Edit: technically Poseidon was avenging his son whom Odysseus blinded. He certainly didn’t need to kill all his men though, his beef is strictly with Odysseus
That is true but Ody did not apologise to Poseidon,if he did Poseidon might have shown mercy by just killing Ody but leaving his crew alive. Actually The Cyclops might have been the same,If Ody offered his or the one who killed his sheep the others might have been left to live...🧐🤔
@@gabrijelakelec4361 Poseidon was never going to spare any of them if Odysseus apologized, and he basically says it in response to Odysseus's "apology". "The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible." = "You're so naive that you thought an apology was your one last hope to survive?"
@@gabrijelakelec4361 I know there's a lot of discourse around whether Ody actually apologized to Poseidon or not and whether there was any chance Poseidon would be merciful, but I think it's made pretty clear the cyclops was always going to kill them all. He accepts the wine Ody offers as an apology and recompense and as Ody says it's good enough that the cyclops no longer wants to eat them. Polyphemus even thanks Ody for the wine and offers to kill him last. So I think it's safe to say if that is Polyphemus while he's grateful and trying to give a gift in return, he was always going to kill everyone.
Now that I'm rereading my message I'd like to apologize if "I think it's made pretty clear" comes across as passive aggressive. That's not my intention. I just don't know a better way to phrase it.
the spiral of Ody just caving to become a monster is kind of the point. Greek tragedy pulls zero punches and it is meant to be an example of how bad shtt gets when you hit every branch on the way down the Things go Bad tree. its about how a man can delude themselves and ruin who they were.
Two things of note. One; the souls of his dead men are no longer calling Odysseus Captain but a Monster. That feels like foreshadowing to me. And Two; the Prophet said that a Man will make it back to Ithica, but Odysseus is now a Monster. His fate is sealed now.
Mortius I understand the comparisons this way, I am a monster for this but I am "human" for this, Polyphemus did what he did for his sheep who were like his pets, Circe for her nymphs who are like his daughters and Poseidon started all this because that they blinded their son, and in this way they are being merciful to themselves, Polyphemus in the end killed those men but avenged his friend (that is, he alleviated his guilt for not protecting her), Circe turned them into pigs but protected her nymphs (he avoided or did not give them a chance to be hurt), Poseidon killed 557 men (Elpenor was not killed by Poseidon, he died after falling from Circe's roof in a drunken state) as a warning so that in the future no one would dare to annoy him or disrespect him (Or his children because all this was because Polyphemus went to complain to his daddy), so they are "saving" future discomfort/pain, they are being merciful to themselves by being cruel to Odysseus, just like he was merciful with his people by being cruel to the people of Troy. I think that's how everyone comes into the comparison of I'm a monster for "protecting", actually Poseidon is the most questionable BUT... he is an all-powerful god who has an entire kingdom at his disposal as big as his ego so it was to be expected.
I would say that Poseidon is the least questionable. Polyphemus doesn't kill to protect. He kills for revenge. He kills, because he is sad and angry. Circe entraps any man she can and ruins his life. Doesn't matter if he is vile or not. She ruins his life, if she can, just because he is a man and she has been hurt by men in the past. Both of those are very questionable to me. Poseidon punishes those who have wronged him. For revenge, and so that mortals will respect him and his children in the future. You could argue that his case isn't much different than Polyphemus', and you may be right. We can only speculate. But unlike Polyphemus, he has the wit to do this for the sake of preventing future harm, and not just because he's emotional. ... Other than that, I agree with your entire comment.
13:41 In an Alternative Reality… Odysseus: Greet the world with open arms~ Poseidon: Allow me to reiterate what I taught you the first time. RUTHLESSNESS IS-
Hey, I know you probably wont see this but I hope you do to clarify a few things; since I see a lot of misconceptions with this song and I really hope you don’t get the same! This isn’t Ody becoming evil or fully ruthless- this is about him finding the _capacity_ to be ruthless! The message of the show is how you need to know when and how to be ruthless in order to protect yourself and your loved ones (Jorge says this in numerous videos). Odysseus’s problem was that he was _too_ merciful (via sparing the cyclops) not that he was merciful period. Odysseus is learning what sometimes must be done to survive! The song takes great care to clarify this with lyrics like: “If I became the monster, and threw that guilt away. Would that make us stronger? _Would it keep our foes at bay?_”,“Five hundred men gone this can’t go on”, “If I gotta drop another infant from a wall _in an instant so we all don’t die_”, “I must become the monster, and then we’ll make it home.” All of these reference protecting his men or himself in some way! I’m pretty sure Jay mentioned in a video how Ody isn’t just becoming a ruthless villain (my words not his) but rather finding a balance between “Greet the world with open arms” and “Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves”. But I could be misremembering. There’s more I could say but it’d be referencing future songs and I don’t want to spoil anything for you! Sorry if this is confusing or comes across as a little aggressive. It just sort of saddens me to see people call Ody evil or morally dark after this song. Since they’re kind of missing the whole message of the story :(( it’s a genuinely important life skill to know how (and when) to be “ruthless” or selfish! You just simply can’t be nice to everyone if they’re hurting you or your loved ones. (Also I typed this up very quickly because I’m sort of busy so forgive my wordiness)
With all due respect the problem wasn't that Ody spared the Cyclops, the problem was that he got arrogant. If he kept his mouth shut and not told the Cyclops who he was Poseidon wouldn't have been able to find him. The problem wasn't being merciful, but rather arrogance. And Ody has become morally darker, I understand the moral of the musical. But I don't agree with it, I think it's cynical. Sure, the world can be awful, but that doesn't mean the only 2 choices are cynical ruthlessness and naïve optimism. There can be a better choice.
@@henryreed4697 I see where you’re coming from and I’m not here to argue just here to point things out. As I do apologize for not being articulate enough. No it wasn’t him being arrogant. At least not in my opinion looking at the larger context of “Remember them”. In the odyssey, yes he was arrogant, and I can see why you’d pass that on to Epic as well. But Odysseus in Epic is very different than him in the odyssey. It’s important to remember that Epic is a reinterpretation/retelling. Odysseus saying his name was a mistake made out of grief and trauma. His best friend and many others just died right in front of him horrifically. He wants the cyclops to remember him and his crew for choosing not to spare them. He’s essentially trying to teach the cyclops a lesson. Kind of like “You didn’t spare us. So I’ll hurt you, spare you, and make you remember us. So you can learn to be more merciful”. As seen in the lines “When we met, I led with peace. While you fed your inner beast. But my comrades will not die in vain. Remember them. _The next time that you dare choose not to spare,_ remember them. Remember us. _Remember me_.” Not once did he ever go anything like “Your so stupid. My name isn’t nobody, it’s Odysseus! You’re a fool for believing me”. Why did he reveal his name then? Surely he would know the consequences? You may be asking. That’s because (as I stated) he was just in a moment of severe psychological stress. That resulted in his best friend (who was very clearly an important part of his support system) dying. Under a healthy brain Ody would’ve been more prudent about the situation yes. But it’s important to note that he was no way in a good mental space. He made an awful mistake. Because in the end he’s “Just a man.” And that isn’t a cause to (and not saying you were doing this- referring to the fandom at large) demonize Ody. As for the second point you made. I don’t think you exactly do? But I completely don’t blame you for reaching that conclusion due to the vagueness of it all! But Jorge has said numerous times that the lesson of epic is “That you have to have the _capacity_ to be ruthless in order to protect yourself and your loved ones.” Not to be straight up ruthless. Just that you need that _capacity_ to when it’s needed. Epic is showing two starkly different ways of thinking. A black and white. And showing you a grey middle ground. I do apologize for my wording in my previous message. Yes Ody did get morally darker. But I don’t think he became morally grey nor morally dark. It’s best to think of Ody as sort of like a scared cat. He was backed into a corner by his environment and situation. And he’s only trying to get out of that corner. If you’ve ever seen a stray scared cat you’d know how “aggressive” they can be. Especially one backed into a corner.
@@TheQuasarWinds okay you bring up the original a fair bit. Why? I never brought it up once. Ody is epic is still arrogant, that carried over. And he did tell the Cyclops his name as a way to rub salt in the wound, yes he wasn't in the best mind set, but it was still arrogant on his part to assume that telling the Cyclops his name wouldn't have consequences. And I already got the message of the musical, you don't have to explain it even more. I still don't really agree with it.
THIS SONG! This song was the one that I first heard that made me obsessed with this musical (back when it was just a few concept clips), love how well he's fleshed it out for this version.
mortius, calm down mate, odysseus has been through so much already, he even tried to be merciful to the cyclopse but all he got was a visit from poseidon. and he was even in a sense betrayed by his own crew when they opened the bag of winds. he's been hurt by the world when he tried to greet it with open arms, and now he is tired of being disappointed in the world and loosing the people around him due to his mercy, so this is a very justified reaction from odysseus.
He didn't spare Polyphemus as an act of mercy. It was punishment. Death would've been mercy compared to being blinded with a massive wooden spear. Odysseus is acting severely irrationally, which is understandable, but it's still irrational to think that he has to become a monster to get back home.
@@disableddragonborn he used himself as an example to not hurt others, and if he wanted to truly make sure that polythemus would not hurt others he would have just killed him, also, odysseus told athena that mercy is a skill this world needed and there was no need for more blood to be shed, so he was indeed showing mercy. also, with everything that he is dealing with, becoming ta monsteris a very rational decision.
@@jafferaxtras8061 the greeks have a dual concept of blinding. on one hand a king may blind anyone who would otherwise deserve execution. in this reguard this is known as the merciful blinding. however one blinded in this manner loses all titles claims and anything else from their former life (up to an including their marrige in some cases and any rights to their children or home) now being essentially cursed to act as a wandering warning to others and be shunned for whatever they did to earn such a punishment's. thus the Greeks consider being blinded a fate worse than death while ASLO being a mercy. and Odysseus calls out this concept as he reveals himself to the Cyclops. it is why it is so important that he is THE REIGNING KING OF ITHICA! this is a king's "mercy" which many Greeks consider to be nothing of the sort. the act is intended to be controversial. so both of you have exactly half the classical Greek argument to which their is intended to be no answer... and keep in mind to... these stories are in part a series of city state democracies listing out all the reasons monarchy is bad.
You should go back and watch it as the full first act with your favorite animatics for each song both with foresight like you are going with CF and to experience it as a hole piece to see how it's different from bit by bit over.
I recently read in another comments section that Jorge actually said in an interview that the souls are actually singing the last thoughts they had before their death. Which just makes the whole situation more upsetting because even in his last moments Polites was thinking about having an open and kind heart
The Poseidon line sits inline with how Ancient Greek life was, the gods aren’t monsters, they are necessary elements of the world and daily life, but they also very real beings (to them at least), that if you disrespect or piss them off , they have every right to punish your hubris, with any means they think necessary. Zeus once flooded the whole world because the people were saying disrespectful things and being so too
9:05 Precisely. Ody's off the deep end at this point. He thinks that being a monster is *_the_* way to succeed his objective. Poseidon was monstrous to Odysseus's men, and now everyone's too scared to piss him off, which is ultimately what Poseidon wanted, to keep mortals in check and have them respect him, even if only out of fear. Circe is the more rational comparison. She turned men into pigs to protect her nymphs, which has clearly worked since the time they faced a heavy loss. Odysseus isn't concerned about being good, he's concerned about being successful in his goal to get back home alive. Every other life be damned.
I'm not entirely certain, I understand which point you're making: That Circe is more rational than Poseidon, or that Circe's way of being ruthless is a more rational example for a role model, than Poseidon is. Either way, I don't agree. Rather indiscriminately, Circe entraps men and ruins their lives... for the sake of them not getting the chance to do harm, if they would have chosen to do so. If she is able to lure them in, she breaks them, because that's proof enough for her that they are vile. Poseidon punishes those who have wronged him, so that they and other mortals won't do harm to him and his in the future. He sets an example, and gets his revenge. Poseidon's approach seems more rational to me. It's definitely more reasonable. But both are examples of being ruthless to protect what you have to, so both are rational examples for Odysseus to use.
@@MrSlothJunior I meant it's most rationale to empathize with her, because she has been through some terrible shit that made her ruthless. Poseidon is just cruel for the sake of feeling powerful, which is tyranny, and Polyphemus is a literal monster.
@@disableddragonborn I don't know why you feel that you know that Poseidon is just cruel for the sake of feeling powerful. But you're right, that I don't have sympathy for Poseidon. It's hard to gauge how much he truly cares about his children and their feelings. I get the rationale that he was wronged as a god, but I don't feel that he was hurt, though I can't know. I empathize with Polyphemus, though. Unlike Circe he's made to be monstrous through and through. He's huge and powerful. His voice is not human. He kills and eats humans... but he's also the runt of the cyclops. I see him as just a kid (cyclops). A kid whose pet/friend was murdered by strangers, while he was doing other things. I hurt for Polyphemus, when the adults scold him for being noisy, because "nobody hurts him", and he begs them not to go.
@@MrSlothJunior "When a god comes down and makes a fleet drown, is he scared he's doing something wrong? Or does he keep us in check, so we must respect him, and now no one dares to piss him off." That's why I say he's cruel just to feel powerful.
@@disableddragonborn But that's not what's being alluded to. "Or does he keep us in check, so we must respect him, and now no one dares to piss him off." In context it does not at all allude to him doing it for the sake of feeling powerful. He keeps them in check, so that they don't go against his will and harm those he wants to protect. This song is about the different entities that are ruthless for the sake of protecting what's dear to them. Poseidon is not the exception. If anyone, Polyphemus is, but Poseidon isn't.
I think what Odysseus is saying is that in a different view even Circe, the cyclops are not monsters. Poseidon is a God and known to not be a very patient one. So I think he doesn’t count. But to her nymphs is Circe a monster? No she is protecting them. To the other Cyclops’s is the poly(can’t spell his name) a monster? No, he was just trying to avenge his pet. Extreme for humans but might be normal for the cyclops. Are men in wars monsters? If a home invader tries to hurt someone’s family and get shot. Is the person who protected their family a monster because they shot the invader? Humans tend to view any opposing side as the monster when the opposing side probably feels the same way. But in Odysseus case, he could have just shut up. If he didn’t let his hubris get in the way. I do think it would be best is Odysseus had a balance. Greet the world with open arms, cautiously. But I do know that in the Odyssey, every creature and several gods seems to be against Odysseus. So maybe him being a monster is the only way? 🤷♀️
Nah cuz think about when this becomes an actual, on-stage musical. THIS is where the intermission would be. THIS is where the break would be. THIS is the moment where the lights go up for a 10 minute break. Can you imagine watching this for the first time, 'Monster' finishes and then suddenly the curtain drops and the lights go on 😭😭
"Colder...older" appeared in "Where do we go" By Lindsey Stirling (feat. Carah Faye) Chorus: Now that I'm older Now that it's colder life keeps on crashing day after day like wave after wave we did everything right and now I'm asking Where do we go oh when our prayers are answered? and the answer is no
You said that Polities cameo didn't hurt, but it did when I heard it for the first time without watching any of the animatics, so I DIDN'T REALIZE HE WAS DEAD UNTIL THE UNDERWORLD. Anyway, this is my favorite song in Epic, and I love watching other people experience it
When you said that you shouldn’t compare the life of a sheep and a person, I felt a little funny, because I know for sure that for the sake of my cats I will take both into the fire and into the depths of the ocean. Even if I'm afraid of fire and don't know how to swim. And if someone had harmed them, I certainly would not have killed the person, but he would not have gone unpunished and certainly would not have paid off with wine. But my mother could easily kill someone for this😅 So, I kind of understand Cyclops
The absolute shock on your face is priceless, the slow building of horror in your face! And the denial of the wait at the end. I adore your reactions man! Great video, love your stuff.
Y’know, I just noticed something in Monster at 10:50 with the background vocals singing "Monster" along with Odysseus. The vocals singing "Monster" constantly sounds a lot like the soldiers shouting and calling Odysseus a Monster which emphasizes the shift in Odysseus’s character into the monster.
Apparently, Jay hasn't gotten paid a single dollar in royalties from The Troy Saga OR The Cyclops Saga, (thanks, Blair Russell and Blair Russell Entertainment) so the cast rerecorded them, released them under Jay's LLC Winion Entertainment, and debuted them in the livestream for the latest saga. The new versions are even better. I'm still processing what I just watched. I won't say prepare yourself, because that's impossible. It's yet another amazing Saga.
I love this quote I saw. “Sometimes you must unleash the monster within you… so long as you don’t lose yourself to it. And you know when to let it rest once more.”
13:40 What makes it so much worse is that the change comes right after the Circe Saga, the ONE SAGA IN THE ENTIRETY OF ACT ONE WHERE GREETING THE WORLD WITH OPEN ARMS PAID OFF FOR ODYSSEUS. Circe said it herself at the end of There Are Other Ways: “Maybe showing one act of kindness leads to kinder souls down the road”. After EVERYTHING Odysseus was forced to endure on his journey, most incidents not even being his fault, showing mercy by not killing Circe and showing her his true intentions worked IN HIS FAVOR. After everything, Polite’s words rang true for Odysseus, only for him to say “F*** it, I’m getting us home even if it means mercilessly slaughtering anyone and everyone that gets in my way” one saga later. I REALLY hope that Odysseus doesn’t run into Circe again in the second act of EPIC, because I know that she’s going to be SO disappointed to learn that yet ANOTHER person she showed mercy to wound up becoming someone she can’t trust. I honestly feel that with time, Circe could’ve become a really reliable ally and maybe even new mentor for Odysseus, especially since she’s made it clear that she has the same views as him by the end of the saga, but all of that potential burned the second the Underworld Saga came to a close.
@mortius "Learn to be colder when she got older" might be familiar to you if you go back to The Horse and The Infant "...he will grow from a boy to an avenger/one fueled with rage as he's consumed by age". I dunno if they're direct parallels the way "have I been too kind to foes but a monster to ourselves" is to Ruthlessness but I knew what you were thinking of
To me “lean to be colder when she got older” sounds like Pink Floyd’s ‘One of my turns’, “but I have grown older and you have grown colder, and nothing is very much fun anymore”
I know it's been a few days since you posted this but there's an interesting consideration. I agree that Poseidon killing an entire fleet of men so that his power is respected isn't comparable to say, Circe protecting her nymphs or Odysseus using his Trojan horse to end a decade long war... however: Odysseus is seeing a parallel in what happened just before they met with Poseidon. If he had been harsher with his men, if he had made sure they wouldn't piss him off, they would have not opened the bag of winds that then carried them away as they were right about to get home. As a king, who in terms of ruling power can be seen as a sort of god among men, he thought he should have used his power more rather than treat his subjects like friends.
I believe in earlier songs when Ody was singing about Penelope, there was some violin background - he was missing her and thinking about her. But now it's accompanied by the chorus of "monster". As if it was an aswear for a question "when does the reason become the blame". Now. He's not thinking about his wife and searching for a reason to sail forward. He's kind of blaming her (or the situation) for his further actions.
Funny thing i only now caught: the final sound we hear sounds like its the start of the first sound that fades in at the beginning of "the horse and the infant" to maybe illustrate the circular nature of odysseus' arc
I have been waiting for this! And now even though it's only the end of act one I feel like I can say this because it ties into the song monster. If you look back at every choice he's made through act 1, Odysseus has always become the monster anytime Penelope or telemachus or his reunion with them have been threatened. It's only when his family really comes into it that he throws his mercy away. And he said so way back in the song Just A man. He would trade the world to see his son and wife. The prophet has told him that there is a chance he won't make it home, and I think this is him coming to terms with the fact that the reason he isn't the one in the prophet's vision is because he has no choice but to change if he wants to see them again and so he will do it. No regrets. That's how I see it at least.
I love that your inner Polites came out thru out this reaction it would be cool if both you & Casper cosplayed as Polites when yall react to the underworld saga again I hope you watch the animatics that are out for the underworld saga with Casper or when you do it solo Thanks for the insight can't wait to see you next time for Act 2 whenever that comes lol
For Monster animatics Gigi's one ties this whole series together nicely since you started with it. But I also recommend the one by Rochi because I was flabbergasted after watching that one. De details?? They really looked at the question "When does a man become a monster?" And said: "watch, I'll show you."
It's been so much fun watching your reactions to this! I'm happy that you'll be doing more musicals! I'm not too familiar with Six, so it'll be fun to learn about it with you. (Also, I'm so glad you paused it on the "I'm the only one whose line I haven't crossed" line! It's my favorite in this song.)
The reactions were recorded way before most animatics came out, so it's just the official(?) lyric+some animatic segments video, but we can certainly all hope that he'll grace us with reactions to the full animatics too some day!
@@BlueCookies1116 Yeah, he reacted pretty soon after the Underworld Saga dropped to avoid being spoiled, but released part 1 of the reaction video like three weeks later, and now part 2.
i think its very interesting that odysseus humanizes his enemies first in their lyrics "is the cyclops struck with guilt/is he up in the middle of the night" (p self explanatory i think) "when a witch turns men to pig to protect/is she going insane" (losing herself) "when a god comes down and makes a fleet drown, is he scared that hes doing something wrong" (is a GOD still 'human' enough to regret or worry) but in his own lines, his first instinct/idea is to make himself to be the monster and only later rationalize it "does a soldier use a wooden horse to kill sleeping trojans because he is vile"
The chorus kicking in once he’s finally determined to be the monster? Repeating Poseidon’s words immediately after?? Damn Jorge That hurts me in the feels
"Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves." That can be deciphered differently depending on what an individual is trying to protect. They were all protecting something different (their sheep, their nymphs, their power as a god, their men), and in turn they had to be ruthless to protect those things. In the end, while they were all trying to bring mercy upon different aspect of their own lives (be it mercy on their own self or on those they wanted to defend), they all had to commit similar atrocities to keep that balance.
Fun fact: polites wasn't telling Odysseus to "greet the world with open arms" exactly, the dead are singing their thoughts during their last moments, which is even worse for Odysseus cus it means that in his last moments polites was so sure that it would work, only to get killed for it
I highly recommend watching Gigi’s full animatic for Monster and WolfyTheWitch’s clip. They’re both amazing and add a lot of UMPF to different parts of the song.
Bro imagine strangers break into your place...kill your pet(only friend you've actually known) and when you confront them they offer you a budlight to cheer yourself up... 6:32
Mortius might never see this, but whenever I listen to Monster I always think of the simularities in the opening musical sequence to The Horse and the Infant
