Accident Case Study: Delayed Reaction 

yeah its one of those cases where the old airman saying "when in trouble, be sure to wind your watch" does NOT apply lol

Couldn't have said it better myself. "systems are there in small engines for you to EXIT a hairy situation, not fly through it" is perfectly worded. It's almost how I teach self-defense; I teach them to deescalate, escape, and evade, not teach them to fight the heavyweight champion of the world. You win every fight you avoid, same applies to this situation with the weather. You win every time you avoid a situation like this, not fight through it.

If you’re familiar with the weather patterns then you must not live in Michigan. Unpredictability is predictable!

@Terry Melvin got ya. cheers

Yes.

@Terry Melvin A Hail Mary wouldn't hurt.

"There is no thing as a graceful fall, but some falls are more graceful than others." As a young teenager, the best US Marine Corps training I received was how to fall properly. This as a prereqisite to hand to hand combat training, martial arts instruction and so forth. Also, an older flying friend, Murphy, said "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots." Finally, fly, navigate and communicate. Flying implies constant focus. Be alert to. the aircraft and constantly check and recheck everything. When you are safe on the ground and away from the aircraft , then relax.

Ok

I don't fly, but dream to. Every episode I watch and then appreciate the care and responsibility flying requires more than before.

Seriously keep posting these, I've watched all these probably 3 times each and I cant get enough. Until i can afford my own training these are some of the only professionally made "stories" I can hear of mistakes that could be made. Please keep these up.

They sure are.. keeping me from ever being one!

agree 100%

doggo

yep

@Fred Flintstone How about fly the plane

@Terry Melvin So you value animal life over human life...fool.

Your original comment belies the truth. "I was OK until I heard the dog got killed. That did it for me. I cried all night." How else is anyone to interpret your comment? The obvious interpolation is that you had no emotion, you were OK, you did not cry..."all night"...*until* you "heard the dog got killed". Five humans died tragically and you're crying for a dog?? Pitiful comment. When five human lives are lost those lives are precious. I did not read all 368 +/- comments but at least 100, and no one else mentioned the dog. I have great empathy for animals myself but I'm also able to discern the appropriateness of the situation. Given the circumstances a dog's life is inconsequential and deserves no mention whatsoever. And for some there is a deeper aspect to this; there is no comparison between human and animal life - humans have souls, animals do not.

Yep

I remember that poster.

I belive Kermit weeks owns that actual plane.

I know I liked the manner, (the way) in Which the narrator Delivered that statement truly bone-chilling

@@llo7816 Me too. And in an area of open fields, it was apparently, the only standing tree for hundreds of yards around.

how disgraceful

Actually I dont tget the sense of this sentence. Means that he would regret his siutaion now ?

@@12345fowler they were saying he was descending but he didn't want to be.....in other words the plane stalled and was literally falling out the sky...certainly not what the pilot wanted.

It’s a nice way off saying that the plane is falling out of the sky quickly.

I expect you arrived safely but driving is even less safe

@@jesspavlichenko5745 I did. You are correct, flying is safer. If you lose a fan belt at 35,000 ft, you're screwed though.😁

Mr. Invincible cool guy.

+steveo1kinevo Well said you are the man Steve. Have you ever encountered icing conditions in your 850? Don't let the warm Florida air get to ya :)

+steveo1kinevo I am a pilot myself, I had a interview yesterday by phone to fly a TBM-900, the interview when well so I just may get the job! I would like to pick you brian a little if that is ok with you! I am in CT but the job will be in Wis! All I know at this point about the airplane is that its fast 330 Kts and 15000nm legs! As for me ATP with over 11000 hours logged!

+George Semel I have flown the 850 and have most of my time in PC-12s and Caravans. TBM is a fine aircraft for the most part. I hate flying it in winter conditions, but I'm spoiled by the PC-12. The High pressure tires of the TBM makes it feel like you're taxing on hockey pucks. Be extremely cautious when operating on contaminated surfaces because the airplane skids easily. The De-ice boots protect thin sections of the leading edge of the wing, meaning getting ice buildup behind the boots (most likely what happened with this accident) is strong possibility. The AFM states no ice build up beyond the protected area of the boots is acceptable and the pilot should exit icing conditions immediately. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

Thanks, I got a bit of time in the Caravans myself along with lots of 402, Some King Air , never got to fly a PC-12 yet but the same people are also talking about fly one also! I never liked flying the Caravan in Icing Conditions, I tend to ask to go some place else or land when in countered, I just an old guy, but I am still alive and never bent an aircraft! Its a fast sucker, 300 +KTs I should not have much of a problem with it- its the dam G-1000, not have much experience with those!

Indeed the TBM is fast. Unfortunately I never really saw the increased cruise speed since the trips I did in the airplane were no longer than an hour and a half. It would cut around 5 minutes off a trip that the PC-12 would do. Fortunately the vans I flew were not certified for known ice and we never flew them during the winter. Garmin offers free manuals on the G1000 on their site with system specific differences training as well as a simulator you can download for free. If you're familiar with the GNS430s and 530s there is a lot of commonality between the systems. Honestly they're a lot easier to pick up and learn compared to the Honeywell Apex in the PC-12/47E.

So many of these videos seem to deal with someone who let their ego get the better of them. This seems to be a case of a well trained pilot that just got in to a situation that turned bad quick. RIP

My perspective is that this pilot, and I seldom think this, was a victim more than he was at fault. I have only 10 hours dual instruction, so I don't know enough to have an opinion, but that is my view.

NihongoGuy: Watashiha Amerikajindesu.

@NonyaBusiness! Agree: Bunch of people--including the well-known pilot with his own channel--seem to want to knock the guy for being "over his head" with the aircraft. That doesn't seem to fit the facts that he was very experienced and simply got caught in a terrible icing situation. Maybe he should have been more prudent about checking the weather or not flying at all that day, but that's not a pilot proficiency issue.

@@richardernsberger5692 well at the end of the day he won the darwin award for him and his family. sad

frrrrr

unlike you. youll start panicking at the slightest turbulance

​@@gayjoebidenOk Karen.

That’s just good radio communication. Dramatizing your problems over the radio is not helpful to anyone. It delays important information. I never think their radio communication reflects their emotional state. It’s a separate skill pilots need.

My buddy does the same thing hunting with new people in New Brunswick. If they make a stupid move, he and his brothers DO NOT CORRECT the error. They pack up, come up with a reason to go home, and leave. It's not worth your life being around these people in sailing, flying, hunting, or even rounding up cattle. You and your crew don't get a second chance.

Thanks for sharing your story. I took my wife up in our Arrow last December. I got surprised by some icing conditions and immediately had ATC divert us back home to fair weather. Plans were ruined, but I feel zero shame for choosing the safe option because I'm here to tell the tale.

@@dave0351 And I am sure your wife is proud of your ability to think and do the correct maneuver. May you and yours have many more flight hours to enjoy. Pax

An ice hauler? Omg. 😂

@@dave0351Great job. We GA pilots need to promote a culture of these kinds of decisions.

Had he only gone straight through it, there is a good chance he would have been okay. Instead they level off *inside* the icing conditions. Of course the best course of action would have been to avoid it altogether.

That statement tells the whole story . Complacency. Overconfidence. They should have stayed home that day .

it's not exactly clear what he meant when he said that, either going horizontally or vertically, neither of which he was doing in a steady climb. I think that a lot of guff is being given to this pilot and ATC over what was an extremely bad icing scenario. The thing is that like any weather condition that pilots fly through regularly, 99% of the time it's not deadly because either the weather is not bad enough or the route isn't dangerous enough. In this case both happened. Yes this and that would have helped the situation but also you don't know that it would have made the difference. The plane could have simply gone up to 20k agl and had the same problem.. It just would have taken longer to hit the ground..

Had he been allowed to climb straight through it, it wouldn't have been a problem in a FIKI aircraft like the TBM. The problem is ATC knew about the icing and still leveled them off in it. I had that happen to me in a Meridian. I told ATC I was picking up ice and wanted an altitude change (leveled at 14k on the way to FL280). They left me in it for a while. Luckily my boots were able to clear it just fine because I wasn't in once in 35 years kind of severe icing like this guy. Next time I will declare an emergency and start climbing out of it, and let them route other traffic as necessary.

I'm not a pilot either but there's nothing wrong with passenger's learning something. Like if I needed to board a plane to the next town and it's freezing out, I'd head to the closest bus station. There are way too many of these video's of big and little planes crashing due to icing problem's. I feel bad for that family , that sucks.

John Turner I agree

i'm not a pilot and i somehow stumbled onto these videos. this one in particular is interesting because you find out that the commerical passenger airline pilots are fighting off the ice.

Me too. I watch it all.

@@gwag8410 So do I.

Exactly. Well said.

Same can be said about TAA. So many pilots fly IFR and lose the capabilities of hand flying an approach. Its great equipment ,but when it fails can you still fly it to a low approach? I own a very well equipped AC11 and disconnect my AP 50 miles out and hand fly all the approaches. Have been doing this for years and so far the good lord has kept me safe.

@Brown Paw Yup... The NObby got triggered.

+Flying Drummer. The chief pilot of one major European airline insists that automation is simply a tool and no better than the people using it. She (yes she) insists that all pilots fly without autopilot once a week and only engage it in an emergency, rather than the other way around. She is ex RN, (UK navy) and was the training officer for landing on aircraft carriers, so her flight skills are second to none. The airline has a history of highly skilled pilots and has not suffered a crash in more than 50 years. I wonder whether you immediately realized which airline I am referring to.????

@Nobby Barnes Good name for a Nobody like u

Excellent points Kevin. I thought the same re the "rattle". I feel that it is highly unlikely that Mr Cool in his AlphaMale TBM would broadcast feeling "rattled". I assume this by listening to his "cool" vocal fry when speaking to ATC. I am not speaking ill of the dead, just making a clear point that pride can kill, and we can learn from this. It also demonstrates why use of non-standard terminology is a bad idea, especially if there was a serious event such as buffeting or stickshake in icing conditions. A "little rattle" would ratttle me in a very large way. Perhaps its a trap having the expectation that a high spec aircraft could handle ice and icing conditions, or quickly fly out of it.

Does the TBM have a stick shaker to warn of an impending stall, hence the reported rattle by the pilot?

Si fis amari, ama. Hey man, I agree with your overall points (pride/ego can kill; non-standard terminology is very bad), but either (a) actually don't speak ill of the dead, or (b) speak ill of the dead and at least *own it*. But (c) speaking ill of the dead ("Mr Cool in his Alpha Male TBM") and then claiming that you aren't is contradicting yourself and not real intellectually honest.

Now THAT was the kind of explanation I was looking for. If he got all covered in ice, that should not have made him go out of control. He should still be able to hold it, even if only in a dive. Its not likely he couldn't recognize and recover from a stall. But a stall of the tail? Thats a new one for me! Pull up to relieve the downward load of the tail - totally counter-intuitive. Add to that how quickly a slick airplane with (possibly) cruise power headed straight down can pick up ungodly airspeed. Power off! Gear down! Full flaps! Careful not to pull the wings off.

@@si_vis_amari_ama Really unnecessary. This was a man who had his wife, two children and dog on board. His most precious cargo. I can not take what you have to say serious when it's soaked in nastiness especially when you are taking a single word he said, to do so.

Good call!!

Glad you made it man, Amen brother.

TRI is my home airport. Jewel nestled in the mountains. Glad to hear you had a good outcome.

He probably went through icing conditions before and got used to not having any issues... that is worst thing that can happen to you (either pilot or driver) when you think you are in familiar situation but you are missing some key difference.

If your not instrument rated nor have experience flying in the flight levels. There’s not much choice but to obey ATC. Especially in that airspace. You are a peasant in a turbo prop and will route you in the most convoluted way to avoid pissing off the airlines who pay their bills

Wow. Your perspective is interesting.

"more than capable of handling heavy ice" That is a worrying statement from a pilot. Bravado like that gets people killed. The conditions described by the Air Wisconsin and Amercian Airlines planes in this video sound like supercooled large droplets (SLD) conditions. The cues to SLD on the plane are ice formation on side windows and aft of deice surfaces. A TBM is not certified for flight in these conditions simply because the de-ice system cannot adequately protect the aircraft in these conditions.

Av8or9557 says the TBM "more than capable of handling heavy ice. I'm not a pilot. What I know about icing I have read on the internet over the last few minutes and from that meager knowlege I conclude Av8or is a fool or a liar. At 4:40 and following there is a graphic on the video describing moderate and severe icing which puts the lie to Av8or.

Why would you cycle the boots with little or no ice in them ? That’s a recipe for disaster. The ice can still build up that way and build what some call tunnels. Those also destroy lift too.

Good synopsis to me, well thought out. Plus the EXPERIENCE is a bonus

Well said.

They got you too, eh? I was captured only two days ago. I'm waiting for the email from any one of several RU-vid channels I subscribe to that laments: "Geoff....have you...well have you been seeing other Aircraft Accident Investigation channels?" Yes. Yes, I have.

Same. This didn’t have to happen like most accidents.

Always remember, YOU have a choice to make. It’s YOUR choice to make a flight or not. But remember, always own your choice. Because only you’re responsible.

Get the license. Choose if to fly into possible icing. IFR and complex aircraft are years away from you if you have no ratings now and are flying recreationally. Plenty of good weather days to go fly.

A lot of screaming .

I'd like to think that it's my fear of dying that makes me a REALLY good pilot.

If you have airspeed bugs, put one on expected airspeed, and the min icing speed

he probably had a good idea of what was going on seeing as how the windscreen was coated with ice blocking his view of hte ice on the wings that he was told would be a problem

The ice not only adds drag and decreases lift, it increases weight. All three point to a stall.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it.

@@chap666ish hindsight is good to make better decision than others for yourself.

They have bigger things to worry about than small aircraft.

HyperU2 Negatory. Pilot should have stressed importance of getting out of the situation. How do you think that controller felt afterwards? He could not have known how bad the icing the pilot was experiencing, and likely only wishes the pilot had spoken up.

Your first responsibility is to fly the aircraft. Sitting on your hands while waiting for ATC in a dangerous situation is always the wrong answer.

My thoughts exactly. A whole famility lost forever in less than a minute. How sad.

Nope. Definitely 100% pilot fault. Who has the yoke/stick in his hand to fly and flies the plane? The Controller or the Pilot ? It's called PILOT in command for a reason. Who is more stupid: The guy in front of a screen who orders you to slow down 30 kts below your stall speed, directs you to a 4,000 ft mountain after he gave you an altitude of 3,000ft to maintain. Or the Moron that paid several thousand dollars for a flight instructor to teach him how to fly and was definitely told to not fly into such conditions and just respond "unable", but decided to do the exact opposite of what he was trained regardless?? It was 100% clear pilot error. Even if ATC would have gave him a 30 minute holding pattern into severe icing, it would be still the pilot's fault. Who dies, because he follows the stupid ideas of ATC despite knowing better ? The Pilot or the Controller ? It's Pilot, because it's always the Pilot. You guys seriously need to understand what ATC's jobs really is: It's shuffling as many fully loaded commercial airplanes from one airport to another without them constantly colliding with one another, and to do it as fast as they can. And call an ambulance if an accident happens. That's it. Nothing more. That's the only thing they are paid to do. Nothing more. Shuffle thousands of A320 and 737 into to or out of airports. The FAA doesn't care about anything else. Because that is where their funding comes from. From the taxpayer who gives them taxmoney when he buys an airline ticket. And from the profit of an airline that pays taxes. 99,9% of their funding does not come from the pilot of the small plane. They are just there to keep the business going so that the airline can make more profit and the FAA gets money in return. That's it. And the sooner you realize this, the sooner it becomes apparent why they act they way they do. Because they don't care. And they don't care because they are meant to not care about it. They FAA is merely meant to keep a multi billion dollar business running. They were never meant to help you (besides calling an ambulance or the fire department.) Because business means money. And big daddy gov only cares about money because it creates more taxes for the government. The only reason they talk to small aircraft at all is, because they need to keep them away from the large money machines of the airlines because Mid-air collision are bad for business... If the FAA would be able to, they would immediately ban all small planes for good, just to make more room for more big jets. Sorry but that's just the way our economy works. It's always your own responsibility to keep your flight safe. Never the controllers. You die, they don't. Even when they sometimes screw up. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Also, Joe said the minute you start icing up "you're a test pilot flying an experimental plane."

I don't blame him. Icing is one of those things that can turn your graceful flying machine into a brick.

You don't make it 40 years flying unless you have that healthy fear

Me too

Same. Causes a lot of crashes. I don't travel when there's icing anywhere along my route under any conditions.

Odd... that didn't matter to me at all. Especially given the context. You know, death.

doesnt matter because theyre already dead.

I feel exactly the same way. This video, rattled me a bit. I've been trying to figure out what he really did that was so wrong. The only thing I can think of, is that he lacked radar (or a feed from radar) and that, with the obvious temps, would have screamed "icing" and would have guided him as to where to turn and how much sh*t he was in. So maybe, the moral of the story is, "fly extreme weather - have extreme weather equipment".

Leonardo Paone I know this is late but how would you suggest getting real IFR training here in Seattle? I would like to learn it all and preform everything at the highest level I’m capable of (VFR, IFR, Commercial, CFI, Multi and acrobatic) The school I’m about to start training at has Cessna 162s and 172s and a Piper Seminole PA-45-180, but that multi is 300$/h. That’s gonna get pricey quick if that’s the only way to safely get real world experience in IMC. Any suggestions?

Well stated.

But the video did mention his excessive training.

Lighter In The Storm He likely got standard recurrent training and IFR. Few GA pilots put much time in real IFR let alone in challenging weather conditions where time is everything. Add in over-confidence and you get what happened.

@@TheBeingReal I think the main problem was that he did not analyse in depth the plane manual and put too much trust on the machine. He was completely ok to fly in the icy clouds while the manual states to get out of them asap. This overreliance on the machine somewhat remotely reminds me of Flight 447 where the crew felt overly confident in the modern A330

This x 1000

Probably “dad I’m scared I don’t wanna die” and “I love you I’m sorry. Fuck”

@@gumbyshrimp2606I think it was a rhetorical question.

Exactly what I was thinking.

....actually there is. He probably never read a decent manual on how to configure a turboprop to run in potential icing conditions. www.kingairmagazine.com/article/ask-expert-ice-vanes-important/ Now, realize that he was in "moderate" icing conditions. He was already hearing a rattling noise. That very well might have been a bent first-stage compressor blade. In his one engine. By the time it became audible it probably had several bent blades. Not a good thing to have when you're flying up through "moderate" icing trying to climb to a higher altitude where supposedly there is no more icing.

True - ATCs job is to know the big picture, and here they blew it. They should've known there was moderate (probably understated - was actually severe) icing at the FL range this prop was flying through. Never should've sent them there at that alt. Terrible decision-making

That said, if the guy hadn't spent minutes in what he called light icing conditions, the 15 seconds probably would've turned out to be nothing. He trusted his anti-icing capabilities too much. When you're carrying your family and the dog, why would you not avoid known icing conditions?

That’s a cute dismissal of the responsibility of ATC. When you fly you are commanded by ATC! you don’t get to push back unless you want to loose your license. So you are required to be polite on the radio. Everyone desperately avoids filling out a nasa report to try and avoid the wrath of a crappy incompetent controller with an attitude.

@@edouble0325 I have no idea what country you fly in, but in the USA we have this thing called "FAR 91.3" which says: "(a) the pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency." If you, as PIC, feel that the weather you are currently experiencing is unsafe, you have the legal authority to do whatever you need to do about that. ATC has no authority to override you.

...and what good would it have done for him to turn around? Is it not clear that at a certain point you're halfway in and halfway out?

@@touristguy87 Descending with accumulating icing out of the bottom of the clouds is still dicey, but controllable. Ascending can lead to slower and slower climb performance as the ice builds up on the airframe until you ultimately stall the airplane. He backed himself into a corner he couldn't get out of. A descent out of the icing takes a predictable and short amount of time. If you try to climb out of the top, you're betting that your anti-ice systems can keep up and if you lose the bet, you're stuck with a totally iced up airframe that can barely fly at all, and definitely not climb further.