Accident Case Study: Final Approach 

Escape the Matrix Indeed. Downside of declaring an emergency? NONE!

I have listened to a pilot atc conversation. The pilot was inexperienced and was in bad weather. One could hear he was panicking and called the tower and said that he wants to turn back, but the atc sort of interrogated him and let him know that it would upset their landing schedules. The pilot then said he will then have to declare an emergency as the weather to bad or something like that. The atc then mockingly told the pilot that he could not declare an emergency for something like that and that he got himself into a situation like that. One could hear the uncertainty and fear in the pilot's voice. I would have thought it better to bring the guy home safely and then scold him, not when he is in a predicament.

I don't believe it was embarrassment as much as being basically told NI as she clearly didn't want to be bothered. Nothing was ever said & it won't be because she's military. A private airport would've had much explaining to do.

@@cindywillis8923 I thought the military was supposed to be in the business of saving lives...what did she mean, "There's NO WAY you can land here?" I admit the pilot could have been more assertive, but he already said he was flying light, was clearly struggling with ceiling conditions, etc. I really want to know what the worst thing is that can happen if you land on a base without clearance, in an emergency, life-saving situation. What does the military do to you??

That guy fucked up man.

Exactly

True but the ATC didn't ask a single question. Shouldn't that person, who's not thousands of feet in the air, with bad weather, elbe a bit calmer & able to think clear to ask a simple question or are they a gatekeeper who doesn't care. She sounded like a recorded message of authority & not someone who answers to help.

That is correct. Emergency is when you are low on fuel not out.

@@cindywillis8923 pff I was wondering what if controller asked why do you want to land at an military airport , that imo would be most logical response because it is an odd request. And she most certainly would have understood the gravity of the situation. However, it is unfair to blame her as well because she did nothing wrong in the end and was professional when mayday call was made.

So, he was coming in to land one way or the other. Either intact or not.

He got put in the bye bye box.

This video is fabulously written__ Great writing, and great narration _

For real right.

@@sayloltothetroll6806 LOL😁

Oof. Right in the feels

@paul xavier The recording was played to an audience at a FAA safety seminar in Norfolk VA. Sorry - I don't have a link.

@paul xavier The conversation he’s referring to can be found in one of these accident case studies on RU-vid. It’s the one where the guy leaves Las Vegas a day before the super bowl to get home to Oakland. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-aRSqLHw_6po.html&app=desktop

@@ronmac1832 Not only is being afraid of a controller or facility a mistake, but you may save yourself, your family, and others untold grief by treating that connection as the place that needs to hear your confession to everything that you're concerned may be wrong, or going wrong, no matter the cause or whose fault, and insisting on a resolution that begins immediately. I have been the guy sitting in the dark room, with radar terrain maps expanded out to the finest detail we had, trying to thread an iced-up BE18 around every obstacle in high terrain that he could no longer stay above and could not see in fog and darkness. He landed safely. I doubt that would have been the outcome if he had been "nice" instead of telling us exactly what was wrong as soon as it began to get serious.

@@ronmac1832 Likely in the FAA Archives...

@@ReflectedMiles Good advice. I once was with the kids flying in hazy conditions and started to get a little nervous when I saw lots of unexpected clouds under me. 1st flight following controller said to climb, but I advised him I was VFR pilot. He said descend, maintain VFR & for watch for TV towers. BIG PANIC! I immediately said I need help (JFK jr. died a week earlier). He switched me to a calm slow talking controller who took care of me and I much appreciated the help!

+MrDlt123: Roger that! I dealt with Whiteman AFB when I was flying.

Say he declares an emergency at the moment the idea first comes up, what actually happens when you try and park your wet ga aircraft on the field at Dover? How much trouble would this guy be in? As it happened he broke no laws; land Dover does he get violated?

You are never going to penalized for declaring an emergency, even if it turns out that the emergency declaration was due to something very minor but looked to be major. The idea behind it being that they don't want pilots to be hesitant to declare an emergency for fear of reprisal. However, there are some things to note here: You need to exhaust all of your other 'reasonable' options first. Second, your aircraft will likely be isolated on the airfield as a security precaution. Third, you will probably be briefly interviewed (not interrogated) by military officials to ascertain the true nature of your emergency. You will likely be billed for any fuel, parts used to get your plane back into the air. In any case, I would never risk my life, or those of my passengers because I was afraid to get into hot water with the FAA or the Air Force.

Agreed. As an ex-Navy guy I wouldn't hesitate to land at a military base in an emergency. In fact, I fly over Miramar Marine Corp Air Station regularly and I can imagine nothing but good things about dealing with the Marines after and engine out or some other issue. Sure, you might have to go through a little red tape, but our service members are just people and they'll be happy to help. In short, they get it.

Isn't low fuel an emergency in IMC? Rather be questioned by military then be dead. Always work everything out later.

that's what makes a good pilot stay a good pilot

Very well stated! It stands out that if you run into trouble up there, the trouble will not be you. Congratulations.

No kidding. Humble=Alive

One of the best comments ever.

sad to much pride he should of declared emergency !!! he had to know he was just about out of fuel #

Right? She directly told him if it was an emergency, he COULD land.

hell the korean pilot that landed at osan air base cause he was running out of fuel is proof you can land

I agree . Then deal with the consequences later...so sad

The controller could've been much more kind, A simple "hey if your struggling to get down you can give it a try here, we'll figure out the paperwork later okay?"

Yea...She seemed so cold and uncaring...No kind of empathy..None.

@@bmentlow I agree. She should've got a job at McDonald's instead of at an ATC tower.

As a human being it breaks my heart.

@@bmentlow She was a professional who tried helping him until the very end. Nothing uncaring about her at all. Should she started singing some soothing songs or what? No, she did her job which was aimed at saving his life

@@rykehuss3435 she could’ve been less bitchy

Outstanding!

Nice. I hope you logged the landing.

Great job and yes god bless the Marines!

I'm glad my people help you out.

@@Krystalmyth Get out of here with that fake divisive BS. YOU are the problem.

Nice tip

Was thinking the same thing!

Terry Melvin I’m not a pilot. I’m guessing, and assuming it is. But from what I have seen you have to verbalize “I am declaring an emergency “.

Terry Melvin calling mayday can also get ATC to possibly declare an emergency themselves for you which is something they have the power to do, so I would think both would be fine.

Pasenger planes do this as a matter of policy if they ever reach low fuel. Policies may slightly differ regionally, but it's something along these lines (here from the European Cockit Association): "The Commander shall declare a situation of fuel emergency by broadcasting a mayday call as soon as the calculated usable fuel predicted upon landing is less than the planned final reserve fuel." Final reserve fuel means 45 minutes of fuel here.

It can be many things, from ego and arrogance, all the way to absolute lack of self confidence in one’s own abilities and inexperience. If you can’t fathom why someone would feel like that, consider yourself blessed! For me being a very inexperienced helicopter pilot with a big scary IP in the left seat, sometimes even when I know something is wrong or needs to be done, I have to fight that urge to not say it out of fear of reprisal or shame. Maybe those pilots feel they’ll face the same repercussions from ATC, or even themselves by making that bad call.

I think it’s just human nature. Had he watched videos just like this one maybe he would have trained himself out of that attitude.

Egotism. Seen it so many times.

I know he was a trauma surgeon, and I know they can have big egos. He may have not had one at all, and I could be completely wrong… but those two Venn diagrams have enormous overlap.

He did, he said his GPS was not working.

And the sad part is, in the end, he was both embarrassed AND dead

I don't know if embarrassed is the right apology for this.. no one declairs an emergency until they have a motor out or something serious. That atc person straight up said "you CANNOT LAND HERE, unless you declare an emergency" if she had said "if it's an emergency you can land here" I think things would have gone down differently. He didn't have to fly far past the afb to run out of fuel and declair an emergency. I can see fear being more of a factor than embarrassment. It's different for sure from one atc to another (military to civi) in my mind that atc couldn't care less or be bothered at that moment and was a complete b. I hope that dudes ghost lives rent free in her head for the rest of her life

Instincts DO go a long way. Nothing is worse than that feeling you get if you make a mistake while IFR. I still have a reoccurring nasty dream that I'm in the soup on an ILS and suddenly realize my VOR's are tuned to the wrong station and that at any moment a mountain could appear!

Phil: What's the rest of your story?

You have just read the story. Morale of the story is they elected to drive, hence they are alive

And that happened when he had a United 727 to fly? Try again

Bullshit. That's like saying people who choose to fly hundreds of thousands of miles are now alive only because they chose to not drive and otherwise would have died in car accidents. And if that "part-time lawyer" (there is no such thing because "lawyer" means you have a law degree and are a member of a bar association in "good standing" whether "active" or not and clearly he WAS active if flying to see "clients") was also a United 727 pilot, he sure as hell wasn't getting to the airport for his OTHER "part-time" job, taking a look at the weather and deciding to "drive" his entire plane load of passengers to their destination. Did you not just read the story?

Agreed! Especially on a bad weather day like that day, he was likely the only aircraft airborne in the area, everyone should have talked more to resolve the situation.

Too right! You want me to declare an emergency when I'm looking at an empty fuel tank? "Mayday fuel". There. Now can I land? The military would have been amused and delighted to see him safely on the ground, though they might have played soldier boy about it. Much much happier than hearing he died. I bet that controller was not happy that he didn't ask for more information. Not his fault, but it doesn't mean he won't blame himself.

cageordie

Yeah, and I suppose a good surgeon gone. MDs have a reputation as cocky and know it all, but this guy seemed humble, perhaps too much so. At least he left us with a serious lesson to learn. Ironically, Dover is the base where dead servicemen are brought from combat zones for final processing before burial.

Sounded a real nice, gentle bloke .... very sad!

"She would have said: Are you declaring an emergency?" Exactly. I hope she is longer in ATC

I would really have liked to see the ATC be more proactive in this instance? If the pilot is querying landing at a military base, then something is seriously wrong. Ask the relevant questions! Encourage them to declare emergency & help them get down safe! Don't just stonewall them.... Gotta admit this was disappointing, in terms of ATC facilitating a pilot's safety, and I was rather surprised that wasn't clearly flagged in the analysis...?

She said no,only if it's an emergency. now it's on him!!

She seemed like she really didnt give a shit

She immediately told him that if he was in an emergency situation, he could land. That's her job. His job was to say, "I declare an emergency, and I need to land." The moment he DID that, she cleared him. But he waited too late.

As a former Army flight medic, I hear that!

The Hands of a Seamstress The Eyes of an Eagle The Heart of a Lion The brain of a cabbage The Surgeon Surgeons know nothing and do everything Internists know everything and do something Psychiatrists know nothing and do nothing Pathologists know everything but it’s too late. I think this is from “ The House Of God “ Samuel Shem MD

Bill: An addendum to your slogan: "Blame the dead guy." - FAA/NTSB

KutWrite Sadly , I concur. Someone recently lamented that in Military Aviation, the final report takes roughly one month from the incident. One month .....versus many months / years. Why is this so ? The smart people said that in the Military every squadron has a safety officer. Sometimes two. The Warriors are on sight in a few hours, where memories are still fresh and the “ crime scene , crash scene ( not sure what the politically correct name du jour is. That is huge in terms of forensics and chain of custody. Most members are Pilots and Senior Enlisted maintainers. They all have “ skin in the game “ and no doubt knew the Dead Aviators well. In short they need a root cause analysis , especially if the A-C was a tactical bird. To keep nuggets safe. Versus the NTSB - FAA , who apparently don’t play well with others. I’m pretty sure politics come into play . Some of the “ talking heads “ should probably just stick to facts and hard data. The “ crash Scene “ is no longer pristine and in developing countries there is NO crowd control. Metro Manila has this problem every shift. I learned some members are appointed, voted in and don’t have a background in Aviation. Similar to these folks gingerly holding the dreaded “ assault gun “ that can kill 223 , or 5.56 people every time they smash the trigger . It’s always easier to blame the Pilot. Oft times with disastrous results to the family. A couple of wives worked tirelessly to get the pilot error verdict changed

@@mikepaz4870: I agree. But once the investigation gets to the Flag level, CYA and political considerations take over. E.g. When Kara Hultgreen died in the F-14. They had to blame someone/something other than her and definitely couldn't let it appear that a woman couldn't handle an F-14 (I'm not saying they can't). One very fine officer with a great career to that point lost his chance at promotion as a scapegoat, largely because he didn't want to pass her through the RAG (type training 'ron), even though he, as his predecessors in her training pipeline, wanted to flunk her.

Thanks for the info, Bill. It may save someone who otherwise might not make it because of being fearful of reprisal, or just plain embarrassment. at declaring an emergency for clearance at a military airfield.

Right! As I was told, confess early and confess often. If you have a problem don't make them work out what it was from the burnt remains.

Did the Air Force give you free fuel?

I can tell you the answer is a hard NO.

I doubt air force bases even have 100LL avgas. There are virtually no piston aircraft, everything in the air force including almost all of the prop planes uses jet fuel. The only piston aircraft I can think of are the civilian trainers and towplanes they have at the Air Force Academy in Colorado.

@David Miorgan

YES - it's about what YOU AS THE PILOT think is an emergency. That's all that matters.

Yes, but even if it turns out to be a "false alarm" after inspection of the aircraft, you would still have the right to declare emergency and land at the closest suitable airfield, even a military base. You'd have no way of knowing what the problem might be while in the air. Better safe than sorry.

wtf is a "traumatologist"? - a dumb pilot who makes poor decision after poor decision? I guess that is a good definition of "trauma".

​@@groth3395 "a traumatologist is a fellowship-trained orthopedic surgeon who specializes in the treatment of both simple and complex fractures, as well as wounds and injuries caused by accidents or sudden violence." google is a wonder, try it some time.

​@@groth3395you're disgusting and lack empathy

@@groth3395 A surgeon who operates on trauma cases - i.e. cases where the patient has suffered a critical injury.

@@groth3395the guy that puts you back together again after you get the shit beat out of you for being retarded

And he was a very skilled surgeon, a big loss for us all!

This one made me tear up. It’s so sad

@@Skipbo000 As if it wouldn't have been in the news. Idiot.

Absolutely tragic. Ask for help sooner rather than later. The panic in his voice is beyond....

You can tell he was intimidated by the military ATC's response and didn't dare to follow up. Very sad because it could have been avoided so easily.

And you never want to hear the sad piano music.

i don't know why I watch these.

Yeah, never ever. May we forever be eager to learn and never afraid to take command! 🛩️

Unless it involves a woman riding the captain's log while landing 40 Knott cross winds.

Shaun Daskam hardy har har har

If a skilled pilot is one who runs out of fuel and dies in a crash then your bar for “skilled pilot” is unbelievably low.

@@PresidentGuile Yeah but he died being a bad ass and on his way to performing a surgery. You’ll probably die one day writing RU-vid comments while on a toilet seat.

@@PresidentGuile Have to agree. Running out of fuel is unbelievable for anyone with an IQ above 80.

Thank you for your service Mr. Villanueva and for saving those lives!

Ruben, you were a good controller. You saved the lives of those people by your actions. I wish more controllers were proactive and declared emergencies when the pilot is too distracted to do so!

Ruben...many thanks for your practical, professional solution...that saved lives. You are a credit to your ATC profession, the Military, and Our Nation. God Bless you, Brother.

you are amazing sir

good for you. the first thing I noticed when listening to other threads is that controllers don't tell pilots what they CAN'T DO, which is what this military lady did. especially when you listen to the sigh in the pilots response you can tell he's in stress and trouble. you ask "are you declaring an emergency"., NOT you can't land unless it's an emergency. she flip flopped the questioning. , compared to all the other tapes I hear.

Spatial disorientation.

special 😂😂😂

​@komet5420 haha , I am sure it must have felt special to him lol

Remember YOU are pilot in command and have the sole authority to operate the aircraft safely. .....I would have requested a long landing in order to touch down past the point where the 737 landed.....or at least go around ....

Ghost Rider You’re totally off. There are no repercussions. No costs and no it does not affect your pilots license if you have an emergency situation

Ghost Rider No

Agreed. I don’t fly but if I was an instructor I’d make watching these videos mandatory

When I drove 45 tonne Shell/ BP fuel tankers part of the 10 min pre start check was to visually inspect both fuel tanks to ensure full. We started the early shift at 5.0 AM and, by the time we left the terminal, it was straight into the rush hour traffic. My mate skipped the visual check, or any check for that matter, got onto the motorway and, after queueing for 45 mins was starting to make headway. Imagine his distress when, for the first time, he glanced at the fuel gauge and it read empty! He turned back at the next slip road and chewed his nails all the way back to the terminal in case he ran out of fuel. Back safely, and now about an hour and a half behind schedule, he was at the fuel bunker and took the tank caps off; both tanks were full, just the gauge not working! He WAS pleased.

This is a very valid point, his voice sounds very desperate and he even asks that the ATC continue to talk to him so that he isn't stressed yet the ATC is still nonchalant. Wow 😭😭😭

I think that's easy to say after the fact. ATC doesn't know he's low on fuel, and he didn't tell her OR declare an emergency. In hindsight, yes, they could've done more to help, but in the end you're responsible for your own aircraft, and he made MANY bad choices along the route. Worst mistake was not inquiring about Dover initially. He flew to Salisbury without knowing if the weather was any different.

@@topspot4834 She was very cavalier even after he declared an emergency. Heartless individual. I would agree that a good ATC would have asked "how many minutes of fuel do you have remaining" and even gone as far as saying "okay, it sounds like you need to declare an emergency" when they realized how fucked he was.

@@kevinklassen4328 Again, it's easy to say this with hindsight; the ATC has to rely on pilots to know what they are doing. She COULD have done more, yes, but you can't always ask every question available to you, as you'd not have enough time. On another note, we inevitably are not hearing everything that was said between the two, perhaps she was trying to keep him calm, or was giving regular updates, maybe she was doing everything she could once she recognised the severity of the situation, we will never know. But to blame her in any form is foolish.

​@@cameronmcallister7606 You're right, hindsight is always 20/20. However if we don't try to learn from these mistakes then we are doomed to repeat them. While pilots are allowed to make bad decisions, perhaps better ATC training could be instituted to recognize clearly poor decisions that will jeopardize not only their safety but the safety of others.

I doubt he was familiar with GCA approaches but yeah a PAR approach into Dover would have been ideal in this situation.

Yea seems like too much faith in the forecast without really any backups, forecasts are wrong more then they are right.

What about the 4 passes? Land the plane! Dover was obvious, he was a Naval officer for years, a surgeon, he was obviously smart and worked under immense pressure. Declare your emergency, stop and get fuel, apologize and keep flying. This is sad beyond words...

@@codecodderson3607 Not true, forecasts are accurate 80% of the time.

@A OK : I believe he was competent. He flew the airplane in IMC plenty that day. I think you're mistaken about under fueled. The Arrow would only have about 5 hours range tops, max fuel on board, and that's where he ended up. Gliding 2 miles from the runway on a deadstick, night approach, in actual instrument conditions, with it getting colder every second also and worrying about icing in a non-deice ship. You wonder if he even tried to dial in an RNAV or an ILS in those last moments. Of course I question WHY in the heck didn't try to shoot the ILS at one of those fields? And why didn't he even TRY to make into to his destination airport? He was a surgeon of all things and probably could display the attitude that seems to go with that. So what he goes missed approach. Something he ended up doing the rest of that fateful evening. RIP Georgia comrade

@A OK : Mother Russia demands your service Comrade ! Give willingly or under force, your service will be extracted ! (You can interchange USA - same result)

Truer words have never been spoken.

A comforting thought next time I'm in turbulence.

So true

y je - I didn’t say it would be good at it

Yeah, that's what I said. He could've said nicely that the plane was coming down one way or the other.

After she said that, and he shortly after said "Mayday mayday mayday I'm declaring an emergency" I 100% thought she was gonna say "Yeah, nice try buddy"

Seems like something to remember: If ATC says something can be done "if it's an emergency," perhaps the pilot should take that as a hint.

Fantastic comment.

Same. I actually lower the volume. It's gut wrenching.

@@kittyhawk9707 Go see a psychiatrist.

@@kittyhawk9707 Thank you for some much-needed perspective in this heart-dropping time

@@ramonmoreno8014 Yup ..comedy central this stuff ..

@@Virtualmix wah wah wah ..crybaby

Plus I believe the surgery was the next day. I would have bumped my departure time by at least 3 or 4 hours.

Ralph Corsi I agree with you. I would have canned that flight as well. Buzzing around at night in an Arrow with limited range to get completely out of the weather system causing the low ceilings is crazy. The accident happened when he decided to drive to the airport.

Get-There-Itis.

Ralph Corsi I don't know what's bad about IFR flying if you can do it At Christmas flew a Mooney in snowstorm landed and almost wrecked the car getting the final miles home We didn't see land till breaking out at minimums at night.

+james connor - maybe I'm misreading something here, but it sounds like you were lucky in the flying. "Breaking out at minimums" if you actually mean airport minimum visibility would be right on the edge of a closed airport. Snow can be particularly bad for localized areas of poor to no visibility. "Almost wrecked the car" might also be meant as a comparison of safety between flying & driving, but the only good thing about flying by comparison would be less worries about other traffic. As written it sounds more like a description of pushing the limits more than you realized in the air, and too far on the ground.

Agreed 100%.

Being a VFR pilot myself, I'm so happy to hear you say that. While I won't bring up any criticism here, I have to admit that I was baffled over the exchange at Dover.

It's a lot easier to apologize when you are alive too. It's unlikely the FAA would sentence you to death. I guess this answers my recurring question "Why are American pilots unwilling to declare an emergency?"

Chris - try declaring an emergency with the iron fist that is the Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia. Mate, private GA pilots can't look sideways without fearing we're doing something wrong. I'd be absolutely shit scared to even utter the word "emergency" with the amount of bureaucracy and finger pointing we have in Australia.

Remember Alexander that we have been told that pilots are criminals that just haven't been caught yet. A great atmosphere to fly in, eh!

I too cringed at the way the last controller spoke to the pilot. It was like she was reaching over for her coffee while trying to vector the pilot to the runway. I was waiting for. "Can you excuse me one minute. i need to take this call from a friend."

I operated a GCA/MPN-13 at Sembach, *West* Germany. There were only 5 left in existence then. 1983 when i went PCS. Us, Kadena, I think Torrejon... 2 others. As much as they were garbage, they could still get you on course, on glide path. The difference in a military controller and a civilian controller is that a military controller is trained to detect situations. 1) Pilot is executing multiple GPS missed approaches. 2) Pilot articulates GPS is malfunctioning. 3) Controller must assume navgear is unusable. 4) Determine pilot training level, remaining fuel. 5) Interrogate pilot, what is usable navgear to determine possible alternative landing modes. 6) If internal landing modes are available, assist pilot. 7) If no internal landing modes are available, determine if aircraft has sufficient fuel to reach facility with PAR. 8) If PAR is unavailable... Check down. Since Dover was available, the weather was worsening, the controllers knew it, the pilot was having instrument problems, and they failed to suggest ILS at the first attempted landing airport, they were a significantly contributing factor in my professional opinion. Inexcusable.

Coulda should woulda. You're right, but the Dover controller should have offered.

Hope you don't mind me hanging a few comments here where someone can read it. Single pilot IFR is a very demanding undertaking, the pilot had about 80 hours of instrument time; considering that the national average is about 57 hours of instructor training to be certified this indicates very low experience in a single seat situation. ceilings of 300 to 500 feet are close to the average decision height minimum of 200 ft for ILS approaches, you have to fly the approach precisely in order to be successful with those weather conditions. I don't think that there was lots of error in the GPS System since he was able to navigate to airports with precision, but i believe that he became anxious and uncertain of his progress getting close to minimums, [ and the ground ] This could be a HEAD Thing that manifest itself in times of high stress. I also believe that this is why he did not revert to the ILS system. some pilots with GPS capability believe that Raw data ILS approaches is a antiquated system. Stress made him very suggestible to all the queues provided by ATC [ who were trying to help ] without, him having to make command decisions. Be aware that besides recent experience, an aircraft owner with less than 100 hours in actual or simulated IFR conditions will be well served by paying an instructor to accompany him on low weather days, good extra training. Single pilot IFR is very dangerous for low timers and when a pilot becomes overwhelmed it does not always become noticeable in the radio transmissions but i have to admit that as a more seasoned pilot, there were many indications that he just wanted the workload to end and he became less effective with each failure. If you do a GPS approach at a destination airport and cannot complete it ask for long vectors that you can prepare for an ILS rather than trying to sharp shoot the difference between 400 ft overcast and 300 ft overcast at other airports. Only you know when you are truly ready to command an airplane in bad weather if you are the owner. There is no natural ability that can overcome the assurance of operational experience.

@Tony From Syracuse/ dave92f1 I was a flight instructor and went on to commercial flying. After learning to fly one must concern himself / herself with command of the airplane. that means formulating a situational response to conditions present and being able to clearly articulate your intentions and elicit information to support or challenge your plan. The controller should be timely advised about minimum fuel and declare an emergency. [ too many pilots have a paperwork aversion ] If you cannot fly a 200 ft ILS [ 1/2 mile ] 2400 rvr you are a VFR pilot regardless of your IFR ratings. all the airports suggested were above minimums, with all the abandoned approaches and missed approaches, I am not confident that the military option would have been successful.

@Tony From Syracuse I am convinced that controllers try to play a neutral but advisory role in the conduct of a pilot's flight plan. You should be convinced that they respond to request and assist in actions predetermined by the pilot in command. There may be legal reasons behind that position taken. Controllers do not know your weaknesses; Recency of experience; or proficiencies. They avoid leading you into some action that may not be of your own formulation. This is part of the command and decision making proficiency that comes with experience and proper training. REMEMBER that flight time requirements for ratings are minimums. more training is always beneficial. also if you declare an emergency, or are lost, or overwhelmed, so state, and there may be more leeway in the actions taken to help the pilot.

BE ADVISED. ATC IS NOT THERE TO COMPENSATE FOR YOUR LACK OF PROFICENCY OR TO SAVE YOUR BUTT. They have and often will make the difference in a situation where a pilot makes it in safely, but that instructor who trains you and sign's you off plus your instrument check airman are supposed to insure that you are capable of operating in IMC [ instrument meteorological conditions ] and can do so without any spectacular crutches.

I have many hundreds of IFR time in light planes. I have never made an approach when weather was at minimums. I always had at least 100 feet above minimums. I just didn't want to push it. Because of that I've diverted a few times.

This guy made so many STUPID mistakes it is almost mind numbing to listen to him. You want to get on the radio and yell at him to pull his head our of his ass before he runs his tanks dry, which is exactly what he did. I have 1600 hrs in A-6's and about 1250 in various light civils. Shit like this should never happen.

@@stevehammond9156 No, it really shouldn't happen. However, like Bobby, the CFI in me really appreciates these videos--because it 1) helps us determine the kinds of things we REALLY need to stress to students, and 2) reminds us that no matter how much time we have, or how many ratings we have in our pockets, there are two things we can't win an argument with: Gravity and Mother Nature.

Noone cares how many hours you;ve flown if you make cheap comments like this.

As a part-time amoeba, I too can appreciate these vids for their logical portrayal of what appears to be illogical human behaviour, and their utmost respect for the plights of the victims who are humans afterall

Tom B I hope one of the lessons you teach your students when low on fuel with a destination that may be just out of range, with no feasible alternatives, is to pitch up to max range/best glide speed from the cruise speed they’ve probably been flying at . If the guy in the vid had done that even as late as leaving Salisbury for Dover he’d have made it into Dover for sure, since he was only a couple of miles from Dover when he crashed . Unfortunately the pilot reaction in many cases like this is to ‘ hurry on at cruise or above to get there before the fuel runs out ‘ ! In other words,doing just the opposite of what they should do. It’s a sub-set of Get-there itis I suppose.

Vic did you make it? If you have a chance review the accident in Tenerife between Pan AM and KLM. Had the controller given specific instructions to both aircraft every on would still be alive today. I dropped a post on the you tube comments. If you get a chance read it. Let me know what you think

Hi captain, I respectfully disagree with you. The controller in Tenerife did NOT clear the KLM for take-off, the first officer stated that to his captain and the captain took off without the controller saying "cleared for take-off" none the less. The rest is unfortunate circumstance, but no pilot should start rolling without confirmed "cleared for take-off".

@@TheNixie1972 "cleared for takeoff" was never given but they asked for takeoff instructions and the word "takeoff " was in them. ATC needs to become digital or at the least cellular. It seems like its a game for people to talk as fast as possible and to be as incomprehensible as possible. Large jets are finally at least partially digital. There is no reason all planes cant switch to an inexpensive digital system where the plane reports its call sign, heading, altitude and 'intentions' automatically to nearby atc's and automatically recieves digital instructions. Of course as this is aviation a $50 system would of course cost $5000..

I'm sure you've learned that you should have a much more sympathetic attitude and do much more to help than that last lady did. It made me cringe.

lockergr she was totally heartless and devoid of any emotion, even when he declared an emergency. It seemed like he was interrupting her from doing something else.

But it always is the "Monday morning quarterback" situation after the disaster happens -- even when the "quarterback" is the NTSB!

Your point about natural tendencies may be correct, which is why instruction like this--to overcome those tendencies--is vital.

Yeah, he was going to land either way. I'd aim for the one where I'd have some control.

Yes climbing into icing is not a good idea

Leave your ego on the ground right? 😔 I think you’re correct couldn’t bare to say he’d goofed up and stayed in the air too long… bless his family and the patients he can no longer help care for…

people are afraid of the ATC calling the FAA on them. (or just humiliating them) . And if you look around youtube for a bit you'll find that the FAA tends to cover ATC ass even if they were the ultimate cause of the accident. Theyll blame it on the pilot EVERY time

You get a good sense of this from commercial pilots who tend to say it like it is. And makes sense, being pros with a lot of lives at stake.

In another video, a controller chimed in, The video was a pilot with double generator failure who still continued. He said that the battery was good, but a couple of engineers pointed out that when you've had both parts of a redundant generator system fail you have to get suspicious of a common cause, and one possibility was fire, so... are you sure it's not an emergency? He did tell the controller he was having electrical problems, but he wasn't specific enough. The commenting controller said that he would have treated it as an emergency. The difficulty with the military is that they need to hear the magic word before they can allow the civilian to land, and they can't make you say it, and they can't just pretend you did. But he could have asked why the unlucky pilot was asking.

Another thing is, when I become a CFI, I will emphasize that is okay to declare an emergency even though it may not be one. We as pilots sometimes are very hesitant to talk to controllers (especially GA Pilots) because we want to sound like we know. When we hear the magic words "what are your intentions" our reply should be "I want to declare an emergency..." When ATC says those magic words that's what they are expecting to hear.

Controllera can declare emergencies for pilots.

The other controllers seemed fine to me. It was that last controller (the military woman I think?) that was shockingly bad. She seemed completely apathetic, even when the pilot was in a "near emergency" situation. Her attitude (from her tone of voice) seemed to me like "Oh, I can't be bothered if you live or die ... not my problem". What a bitch!

I heard it differently. I think when she heard he was out of fuel and going down, she continued to give him instructions but was screaming inside, "you're not going to make it!"

Come on, she said "Unless it's an emergency", you can't expect her to reason "maybe this guy is shy or too proud to admit he is in trouble so maybe I should choose my words wisely so he will be encouraged to declare an emergency if he is really in trouble." The ATC didn't do anything wrong. it's totally unfair to try to implicate her. Ultimately it's the pilot's responsibility to 1.check his fuel 2. recognize he is in an emergency situation 3. communicate clearly about his situation and intentions. Casually asking if he can land in a military base doesn't cut it.

@@user-gc2jx4gj2q Still, speaking on the radio on this tone is not professional. And I doubt that "no way" is standard terminology in aviation

@@Gabriel-ml7ev The pilot's question is very casual and non-standard and does not convey any sense of urgency, “I don’t suppose there’s any chance I can land at Dover”. The response "Negative sir" was standard and to the point. Because he is not declaring an emergency, he doesn't mention his fuel situation , he doesn't even ask to land there, but rather muses casually, while somehow answering his own question. if he is so nonchalant about his own life why should we expect the ATC to be that responsible and considerate about her wording? At least she cared to mention the exception about emergency. Unfortunately I think the pilot was either unaware of the gravity of his situation or did not know running low on fuel is indeed an emergency.

It blows my mind seeing the number of people here actually trying to blame the ATC which is utterly ridiculous. He had done so many things right but the one thing he did wrong is what killed him and that was when the ATC told him he couldn't land there unless it was an emergency that he didn't say anything about his predicament or just declare the emergency. And come on, her "tone is not professional"?... You seem strangely compelled to find a way to blame the woman. There was nothing remarkable about her tone considering it's a military base. If you want soft and cuddly you'll need to look elsewhere.

@@keyweststeve3509 Are you insinuating I am sexist? I think there is no point having a discussion with you in that case 😂

Only if there's no reasonable alternative. Those minimums are there for a reason - there are obstacles to be avoided.

This makes the story even more ironic and sad. He was in the Naval Reserves, but was afraid to land at the Air Force base.

So true.

AbsoFreakinLutely

David Miorgan what do you mean by that? Who had no pride? I was trying to say the radio traffic controller should have been so robotic and maybe he could have deviated from his script, as for the pilot I felt like he was letting his pride get in the way of just coming out and saying “I need you to pray for me or tell my family I love them or can you just talk to me I’m scared”

I think he was overwhelmed flying the glider in IMC, maybe with reduced instruments. He asked ATC to talk to him for status updates on his course and position, as he needed all his efforts to stay airborne as long as possible. He was to occupied to navigate, so he asked the ATC help. That's what it sounds like to me.

Air safety institute

+Rob S - I'm not IFR certified yet, but i believe that if the winds are calm, it's common to shoot an approach in the other direction. There's also the ILS back course which can be used where the instrument senses for Left and Right are reversed.

I understand the stress factor (I'm a low time student but I can't imagine failing three approaches in imc conditions). however sadly the pilot and atc should seen the ils opportunity. The lower ceiling combined with with a "real" glideslope would have eased his nerves and land safely

+Rob S I think the controllers could have done waaaay better.....his tone indicated desperation.....the controller down south basically sent him back north after 2 failed approaches.....with another approach with lower mins. Pilots need to be flexible....but so do controllers...think out of the box a little bit. I'm assuming they were not very busy....tho...and that is something that may have been a factor.

+William F Yes, I know what you mean. It is a real shame that all the stops weren't pulled out, and I feel they would have been if the pilot was more direct about how critical his situation was. A very sad, perhaps needless loss of life.

In many cases, the human ego would rather die than admit fault or declare an emergency.

👍

But he wasn't, he had many opportunities to land he just turned them all down. Seems very dodgy to me.

Not just a surgeon. He was a world renowned trauma surgeon with an insane resume. Google Clifford Turen.

What a talented loss.

@@MrSoccerball100 He was my neighbor growing up - his kids were a couple years ahead of me. Really great guy, not just an amazing surgeon but a genuinely good human being. Took care of me when I busted my wrist as a kid and again as a teenager when I had problems at home - he opened up his and provided a safe place for me.

shes the worse

THIS wtf...

10:23 "can I land at Dover?" "Negative" or she could have said "We do not allow civilian planes on base, but if you have to land, contact us immediately and we'll help you out."

she didn't give s single flying F man!

@@nyontozel AMEN!

@@Defender78 You do not understand military procedure. This was a military base. She DID inform him that if he was in an EMERGENCY, she could clear him to land. But instead of saying, "I have an emergency," he pretended he didn't. And died. There was nothing she could do.

Yup. See Lynyrd Skynyrd crash.

Agreed 👍 P. S. “…if you feel (YOU’RE)…”.😇