Accident Case Study: In Too Deep 

amen

My father was flying a 172 at that time. That sounds like something he took to heart.

“Every takeoff is optional. The landing is mandatory.” - Ron Tressler (my first CFI)

@@ecidadeII ...what if you pack the plane full of Tannerite and fire a gun into it mid-flight?

@@touristguy87 WTF does that have to do with takeoff & landings?

at standard rate!

@@justinatkinson3642 With no IFR clearance or IFR training? No, you turn around and fly VFR back home.

@@justinatkinson3642 If you're not IFR rated 99% you're going to death spiral to the scene of the crash

@@justinatkinson3642 my brother in christ, he means a pilot that’s not ifr rated

Shit full throttle mf’rs

Yeppers i started driving truck 1974 retired 2012 from driving over the road then drove tri-axle for 4 yrs in northern ontario working on bridges and you have never seen it all or if you are aware not learned something everyday , now i'm glad that's over lol , time to get a pilot lisc. i think :)

for truckers time is money right? Like they only get paid per mile. Even company drivers. If that's the case, there's an implicit motivation to take risks, especially if you really need the money.

@@stap1er most truckers are paid by the load,if it's 500 miles roundtrip your paid 500 miles an loading time ect.. hrs of service means you can only run about 500/600 miles per day anyway

@@pl7868 right, so if you're delayed, your next load will be delayed.. ultimately meaning the more delays (potentially out of your control like adverse weather), the fewer loads per year.

@@stap1er not really,most loads are 500 miles so if ur delayed just longer day,weather is rarely a factor,traffic is,long haul is mostly 1/2 trips a week thing,getting loaded is the real delay,same money

Exactly, when I was listening to it I thought for sure he was going to ask for a heading to executive or put it into his GPS and go there. That was the safest fastest option. Who cares if you are stuck in an airport and can not get home. It’s better to be on the ground than wishing you were on the ground. It’s really scary to think that all these fatal crashes happen with pilots that have a lot more experience than I. I promised my wife I would never take a chance and do something I would regret. If it can not be done safely than I don’t want to do it.

How many tables has it got ? ;)

@@Jbmc65 It's better to be safe on the ground than to be forced into the ground.

heaven forbid he has to decide on the menu items.

You would be surprised how many close calls guys have had, where they just weren't thinking clearly. Use it as an example to check yourself, it is amazing how we fool ourselves into dumbness.

Not at all. That was an excuse given by a pilot who didn't want to admit to ATC or his passengers that he used bad judgement and he's in over his head. He felt uncomfortable with the situation, and for good reason, but that was the one thing he was absolutely determined to not say. There is no room for people like that in aviation, and the pilot is not the only one at fault here. No one should have cleared him to fly solo in the first place.

@@quantumtacos "...no one should have cleared him to fly solo in the first place." Once you have a PPL, you do not need anyone to 'clear you to fly Solo'! Quantomtacos did get this right: he just was not going to admit his IFR issues...he was in a solid IFR...and it was the SR-20 wonderful Autopilot that kept him and his unfortunate passengers alive as long as it did. I have a feeling it was the autopilot that somehow disconnected...and then there was no recovering from it. SR-20 is one heck of an airplane to fly for someone with just over 200 hours...even in VFR. In IFR, they were doomed once airborne. Sad ending...especially for his young passengers!

@@quantumtacos Who did he need permission from to fly that day??? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

They found a ticket for an Indianapolis Colts game in the wreckage. Just 1... seems like he might have been worried he'd miss it. He... did. This one is a real... one to ponder about for when making choices.

He was trapped in a mindset to get out of the overwhelming and deadly conditions to not get caught and grounded for a day or two...to the point he was so mentally fixated, he no longer was considering the risk he was taking was going to kill him and the other 3 that had trusted him as a pilot in command. Very sad!

I, too, admired that, although the use of the phrase "true gravity" there was a bit of a bone-chilling pun :-( Just drove the point home all the more, though.

Gravity is the only factor in all of this that is unchanging and fully predictable.

I wonder if they know they’re flying at an angle or did he think he was level flying

right around the time you hear "I'm in training and I've let this get around me"

B4 I get on the plane

@@whiskeybravo91 that’s about right. Yep

wishing you had a parachute.

@@adotintheshark4848 A parachute would not have saved them in this instance. By the time he realized he was in a dive he was too fast, too steep and too low.

That's the idea, David. Good on ya.

Helps, but not the answer

That is a great decision you took. Now the next step is to keep practicing, be not only legal but also proficient. IFR can go rusty on you real quick.

Wouldn't it be better if the Vfr-rating was skipped altogether?

Great to hear. Just remember the IFR rating doesn’t make you bulletproof. Some of my worst IMC incidents were after I was rated. But congrats on getting that, it’s the hardest rating I think.

What a way to go,spinning ,vertigo in the soup then you see the earth,u know ur ass is grass.A plane crash,burning alive,and eaten by a shark.I hope Those aren't the bucket at the end of my list.

I think his not wanting to get stuck there is why he was in the air, but at this point I think he is feeling some fear, not afraid of inconvenience anymore. The fumbling on the radio; he sounds so uncertain. I think he's afraid he won't see the airport, or is afraid if he tries to turn to it he will lose control. But if he really was still worried about being stuck in the wrong airport that is really sad. But to me, I think he was worried about being stuck where he can't see/fly/land (as in, he's barely maintaining control, he has passengers behind him, and he's trying to get out of this without everyone realizing they almost died).

At the beginning of the clip, he asks if it's possible to land, but then asks about alternatives after losing sight of the airport. He says he's afraid of getting stuck here all day (his destination). He's not afraid of getting stuck at his destination, he's afraid of not being able to land, and being stuck in these clouds. But I think at this point he finally isn't worried about being stuck at the wrong place. At the end, he says "at this point I don't want to mess with the weather. I'm gonna get out, and I don't want to get stuck in here." he then Flys west, away from his destination, and his nearest alternates, to try to get away from the weather. So the lesson is don't ever get in the spot he was in at the start, and probably use the controllers info about the weather to decide where to go. It was odd, the guy got so confused he was thinking a lower cloud ceiling was better in part of the radio communication. As this seems simple to someone with zero flight hours, the stress was clearly high.

Thats deep

No disrespect to this pilot and his loved ones at all, but if the Bonanza is referred to as the "Doctor Killer", isnt it about time to consider referring to the Cirrus as something similar?

The purpose of videos like this is to reduce the number of families that experience that pain.

I would never put my family members on my plane. The stakes are too high and I don’t need them to affect my judgment. I wouldn’t travel with all of my important family members either because I want to maintain designated survivors.

Think of it. A 200 hour pilot have the same chance of malfunction/bad weather to a 20,000 hour pilot. You don’t want to fly with your loved one with you being the PIC. You got to risk your life to work your skills up and it’s your instructor’s job to share the risk with you, but your family and friends getting involved is unnecessary.

@@alphacentauri1760 but a 20,000 hour pilot has the experience to navigate through bad weather, keep flying with a malfunction, or maintain control of a completely malfunctioning plane and land the plane in a place where the landing will be survivable. This pilot was just unqualified to be flying with poor visibility. One of my instructors has 15,000 hours of flight time and has crashed (for lack of a better term.... Landed a plane that would no longer stay in the air on its own) 12 planes in his career. Walked away from all of them.

Has 15000 hrs and crashed 15 times ok maybe there is a problem with flying your all a bunch of crazy people anyway I do accident recovery and all of the rest of you will be in my body bag on the first crash. God Bless

I got caught up in a building summer storm, turn around, and if you have to get somewhere, land and wait. We landed at Youngstown, the FBO was more than helpful. Waited an hour and change, storm passed, and we went home. Naturally, failures notwithstanding, watch those instruments. Otherwise you’ll end up in a spiral. Oh, and stop second guessing, if you want to land, land, and don’t be picky. (Oh, my truck is almost out of fuel, but the only stop around here is TA, but I don’t like their coffee, so I’ll press on. Oh darn, here’s a Pilot but they only have a Subway, I guess I’ll go back and see if the TA is still there. Runs out of fuel halfway to the Loves. What was that whole thing about needing fuel I mentioned an hour and forty miles ago again?) as usual I got on a tangent. If you are in too deep, land, and don’t be picky. Ask control where the closest field is that is clear. Like clear clear. And pick that one. If you want to get the hell out of dodge, once again, ask where the weather clears up, and fly there. And don’t be picky, and don’t keep changing your mind. Ain’t it interesting how you can have CRM issues without a first officer?

I'm not a pilot, but I remember reading somewhere that the inpexperienced pilot will press on into bad weather and will see the more experienced pilot who has decided to turn back and who, on landing, will encounter the most experienced pilot...who decided not to take off in the first place.

splitsandpens might be his passengers were arguing with him, making him land near college. No one this stupid would have been given a licence.

@@dedasdude if a pilot lets a passenger argue with him about piloting decisions, he is precisely that stupid

souocara38able Very well said!

@@dedasdude How did this turn into such far-reaching speculation that "his passengers were arguing with him, making him land near college?" And then labeling/judging him as "stupid?" Geez - the idiotic judgment of RU-vid armchair/Microsoft "pilots." Give this dead father and 3 young people some respect.

I have 15,000 plus in a lear`` He had a death wish

Exactly. Set personal minimums, study the weather, and remember there is always another day to fly.

Light planes aren't more dangerous, private pilots are.

I hold it to be self evident that all should have instrument capability. VFR is simply too limiting to be reasonable considering how inexpensive digital instruments can be today. Synthetic vision could be minimum requirement. ADS-B too

@@DanFrederiksen Training is required too, of course. "Get on the instruments!" is such a common admonition as the inner ear convinces us so indisputably of what's really (not) going on.

@AudioASMR 60000hrs? People with that much flight time are hard to come by. Remember pre-covid There was a pilot shortage. Also, the guy was not instrument rated, which is a big no in IMC. Ex: Kobe's helicopter pilot wasn't instrument rated, and crashed in the same conditions.

I believe “I’m in training and I’ve let this get around me” was his attempt at that…

Pan-Pan..

NOTHING would've been wrong to just admit, "No, sir. I'm not fully IFR Certified, so I'd like a VFR landing as reasonably close to here as I can get it." ...AND then (where this guy f*cked up ROYAL... When ATC responds with "Executive is closest to you, with a ceiling at 1500, and VFR landing..." ...NONE of the "I don't like that." or "I don't need to get stuck there." or anything... ...THE ONLY CORRECT ANSWER is "Thank you, sir. Can I get a vector toward approach, and I'll just divert." There... 30-seconds worth of screwing around TOPS... and "crisis averted"... simple... easy... CLEAN... and everybody GETS TO LIVE!!! No need for PAN-PAN... or "MAYDAY"... No need for dramatics or theatrical hooey... No meandering all over the damn map and countryside... ...AND for the Passengers??? The Passengers will be more frightened for bouncing their asses all over your little bitty plane in a BIG UGLY SEA OF GREY... winds buffetting them blindly up and down and all around while you're grimacing out over the controls like it's going to help you see any further than the blur of the prop'... Do you REALLY think they're as blind as you seem to think they're stupid??? They CAN TELL when they're watching you posture and squint that you CAN'T SEE A DAMN THING... That's frightening on its own. You won't save anything by trying to omit the danger they're in. THEY CAN'T SEE SHIT EITHER... SO... cut it short... ADMIT you don't know what the hell you're doing and get ALL YOUR ASSES back down on the ground in one piece... The Passengers (daughters or otherwise) will be MUCH HAPPIER for the trip ending well, and you can THEN puff your chest out and grin, "Ain't nothin' the old man can't handle. That's what ATC's are for, kiddo's..." Trust me... in the moments between stumbling out of the plane to kiss the tarmac and hearing that sentiment, YOU WILL BE ZEUS AGAIN... Daughters are funny like that (read "Kids are resilient and forgiving!") ;o)

Imagine if passengers on a commercial flight could see and hear the pilots, the captain would make decisions that would not frighten or alarm the passengers, not to mention lose face as a captain not in control of the situation. It’s an unfortunate circumstance of a general aviation open cockpit layout.

I'd like some vectors to the nearest VFR airstrip

I agree. The embarrassment of admitting he was not confident in landing safely is absolutely what caused him to say he didn't want to get in there and be stuck all day. Pride killed this family. Sadly, it happens more often than people realize, and not just in aviation.

Great comment, banjo. Incompetence got him into his predicament, IMO, and pride kept him there. Very sad.

You nailed it. Really just terribly sad.

I nominate your post for Post of the Year.

100% truth

Sad isn't it, I don't want to get stuck all day, instead he and his passengers all died.

Exactly. You could tell he didn't want to look "stupid" or make his passengers nervous by admitting he had no clue what he was doing. Sad his own ego killed him and his daughters.

That kinda talk he was doing is when the family takes a road trip and the driver is indecisive about what route to take and impatient with roadblocks! All over the place!!

In the end, he did look stupid.

You could here the indecisiveness and his consideration to land at each airport in his communications with the ATC at each but appeared to convince himself he could find better conditions and or make it to his destination. If this is ever the decision at hand I will always land. But first and foremost never fly VFR into IMC conditions at low altitude. Unfortunately this is the outcome way to often.

These atc’s did seem a little hard on the guy. Maybe bust his balls when he’s on the ground safely.

@@ryanfick1033 They actually seemed helpful to me, trying to get him out of the situation, and clearly communicating between themselves that this was a guy on VRF in dangerous conditions. The pilot refused their help. He sounded really confused and indecisive, and in general just incoherent and unable to articulate his ideas and wishes.

@@ryanfick1033 pilot was in babble mode early on. needs to declare an emergency - even though he may not be aware and/or accepting of the situation. atc should be trained to spot these guys and get help on the line asap. the pilot simply wasn't up to it. it's basic denial - and a definite EMERGENCY!

Lady Tate easy for the atc yo day on the ground. The atc wasn’t helpful, argumentative and compounded the situation. You’re wrong.

@@ryanfick1033 what is 'yo'? and please let this answer your post: atc may not have been able to help him, as per technical/legal restraints. atc could have asked if he wanted to declare an emergency - that is true - but the pilot presented himself as having other ideas/solutions. someone else may have been more open to advisory considerations. again, the pilot was evidently incapacitated by extreme stress (or even shock) upon the realization of his predicament. he attempted to maintain control but must have feared his loss of same. another commenter noted that the pilot would probably 'not have taken advice from Chuck Yeager'. p.s. i've been reading this board for over an hour. during this time i've come close to crying aloud at least twice. i became near ill also, a couple of times. i laughed heartily at the amusing and bright commentary. this pilot sought to avoid exposing his incompetence at every cost. that is the thing.

all the controllers sounded helpful and tried to help him out but the pilot made his own decisions. If he'd landed at executive it would have been a different story.

I don't think they are allowed to do that. He is not allowed to fly into clouds so they cannot assign him anything. They can "recommend" a heading, which they offered, but he'd still be responsible to fly around clouds himself, and in any way, he told them that he goes west into better weather...

You know the controller couldn't tell this guy what to do, right? He was his own boss. That's just what we need: more people in government controlling us. You make your own decisions and take responsibility for them. The controller tried to help, but knew they couldn't order this guy to do anything, even if they knew he was in over his head.

ATC DuPage could have ordered to land. The PIC might be in control of the aircraft, but ATC controls the airspace.

That's why the seat is called PIC - 'Pilot In Command'.

No kidding! He WAY overdid it. Put his family at risk...

N.b Nhb

Sovereignty Soldier - Ha ha

That’s good !!!

I think they should have told him to come down.

@@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823 He chose not to, more than once.

"I'm in IFR training." So in other words, the answer to ATC's question was a resounding NO, I'm not IFR qualified." Just say so!

@@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823 not their job, his. He's PIC.

Softening language you hear all the time now, along with participation trophies. Physics does not care about your feelings or perceived competency. This outcome was practically guaranteed, unfortunately for those directly and indirectly affected by this pilot's decisions.

Now that's a smart instructor.

good for you and your instructor-it would have been better if my instructor had given me that same option, I lived in central Calif and at the time I didn't contemplate IFR option, although I did-illegally fly IFR with no issues I was comfortable in that environment. still bad idea.

@kingair001 ah airman's certificate , nice try

@kingair001 Can you go ahead and start at least TRAINING on instruments early on in the process? (In Cindy's case, testing might have been different in 1980.) As one getting ready to begin flight training, I think this is something I'll discuss at length with my instructor. VFR is fine but no pilot should ever be satisfied with having just that. Time and again these vids prove that it's necessary to have, at minimum, good working knowledge of instruments whether or not one has the "scrap of paper". Just my two cents' worth as a beginner (-:

My father in the 40s in order to achieve a private pilots license Spin Recovery was required in order to get a private pilots license, today you don’t have to have that, That’s a big mistake!

TheTextralian this was really helpful to read. I’m considering getting my PPL. Flying just looks so damn fun to me. I’ve probably watched 60+ hours of aviation videos and case study videos within the last week. I keep watching these and seeing that most people meet an unfortunate end after not being fully IFR “conditioned.” It’s very sad. I keep thinking that it has to be super important to get trained for IFR, and I just don’t see why anyone would A. Not do it, and B. Go out in horrible conditions. It just seems too damn important. Any advice for someone looking into aviation and trying to be the safest pilot I can be?

@@Stewbob112 : Yeah, move out west where haze is rare and clear skies are common. I took my first 2 or 3 lessons back east and said "screw this" and took no more lessons. During those 2 or 3 lessons I told the CFI next to me that "no way is this VFR ... I can't see far enough, plus everything on the ground looks pretty much the same so I never know where I am". His reply was "if we followed the VFR rules strictly around here, we could never train students". Yeah, no kidding. That was the end of flying for me. A few months later I moved out west and flying was *TOTALLY* different. And I do mean *TOTALLY* different. Once I got at altitude I could see 200 miles in every direction, not 200 meters. Sure, there were clouds here and there ... as well as lakes, rivers, mountains and all sorts of other identifiable objects. But you can see the clouds, even rainstorms with lightning flashing when you are still 10, 20, 50 miles away from them. Which means, you can fly around storms just as you can fly around mountains. All of a sudden flying got a million times easier ... and a billion times more fun. If you fly because that's your job, then you need to be competent and comfortable flying in IMC, especially if you live "back east" (which means everywhere east of central Colorado or New Mexico to me). If you fly because you love to fly ... well, as far as I'm concerned flying is not fun unless you can see beautiful scenery from above. Which means, no point in flying in IMC conditions. Yes, if you fly long distances you will eventually encounter situations where you can't find an easy way around bad weather (having started in good weather, as always). And in those cases you land and wait it out. And there are endless places to land, so that's not a danger. What is a danger is trying to sneak through little bits of IMC because you think probably there is more VMC "just around the bend" so to speak. Screw that. Land somewhere, get a nice meal, get a good night sleep in a motel in the very rare case where good weather doesn't appear before dusk. Out in good weather country this doesn't happen often enough to severely impact your life or your wallet. But crashing your airplane does. If you have a modern airplane with modern "glass cockpit" avionics including GPS, autopilot, 3D synthetic vision, moving maps, ADS-B out, ADS-B in and such ... in theory a pilot can sneak through little bits of IMC without much risk *IF* he takes advantage of all his instrumentation *AND* is absolutely immune to trusting his senses more than his instruments in IMC conditions. Frankly, I think there should be an intermediate rating between VFR and IFR for pilots who *HAVE* all this advanced instrumentation and occasionally might benefit by flying for short periods through IMC. For example, let's say you leave from an airport in good solid VFR conditions and your target airport is in good solid VFR conditions, and the best and safest way to get from A to B is to climb through a thousand feet of clouds to get to clear blue VFR skies above that cloud layer. A pilot with this kind of IMC training and practice *and instrumentation* can safely tell the autopilot in his airplane to fly towards a specific heading at a given altitude (above the clouds) ... and the airplane will do that. If by small chance his autopilot fails, a pilot with this intermediate IMC rating would be able to glue his eyes to the attitude display and 3D synthetic vision on his display and fly the airplane back into VFR, or to the closest airport or airstrip. What such a pilot would not be trained for is quite a bit, including: IFR takeoffs, IFR departures, IFR routing, IFR approach and IFR landings. The reason being, he does none of that. He flies in VFR virtually all the time, with the exception of skirting marginal conditions for a short period of time. The reason this works fairly well is that he has two ways to fly fairly safely in IMC. First, his autopilot can take him where he wants to go, and second, if all else fails, he can fly the airplane via visual reference to his advanced instrumentation. Unless his entire collection of instruments fail, he can essentially fly in simulated VFR conditions by looking at his 3D synthetic vision display, which shows terrain (with warnings when headed towards terrain that is higher than the airplane altitude) and shows other aircraft (via ADS-B out+in), and shows airports and airstrips nearby. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear the FAA has any interest in offering this intermediate rating. But at least VFR pilots who have this advanced instrumentation have ways to get themselves out of marginal or bad situations they should never have gotten into in the first place (and must spank themselves thoroughly for doing so when on the ground). Some pilots (almost all of whom has IFR ratings of course) will object to what I say here and say having all this advanced instrumentation is dangerous because it lures VFR pilots into IMC conditions "because they think they can escape with their lives". While this will obviously be true in a few cases (with people who are inherently irresponsible in the first place), far more VFR pilots will be able to save their butts in cases where they legitimately got caught in IMC while trying to be prudent. In my opinion, this should rarely happen "out west" due to the different nature of weather conditions. However, from what I remember of flying "back east", the whole prospect of flying VFR seems like russian roulette. The best advice is "don't push it" and "don't be stupid". The second best advice is "get great modern instrumentation in your airplane". The third best advice is get IMC training. You can probably convince an CFI to give you lots and lots of training and practice flying through IMC conditions. Hell, you can probably tell him you intend to get an IFR, but want to first get twice the normal amount of instruction flying in IMC conditions *before* you move on to all that other complex ATC-instruction-following stuff that is necessary to get an IFR rating. I don't see any reason a VFR pilot cannot become a better IMC pilot than most IFR pilots via lots of training and practice in IMC with a CFI sitting beside you. And there is nothing illegal in doing so. Then ... just in case you ever get trapped ... you are just as safe as any IFR pilot ... as long as you can find an airport with VFR conditions down low to land at. And since the vast majority of airports and airstrips have no ATC, you will always have a boatload of airports and airstrips to land at... assuming any have VFR conditions. And if you can't find any? Well, you definitely flew on a day that you should not have flown, and must spank yourself viciously after you land. But land safely you will, because you will contact ATC at the nearest big airport with long runways, confess what a moron you are, and let ATC fly you down to the runway. That shouldn't be very difficult either, because you have GPS and 3D synthetic vision to let you see where you are and where you are doing. Plus you have ATC to help you, or at least keep other airplanes out of your way. In my case, I intend to never get anywhere near IMC conditions. But if the impossible happens, I have all that modern instrumentation to help me extract my butt from disaster. One more thing. Anyone who is not good at situation awareness or staying rational in dangerous situations should stay at least 25 miles away from the nearest IMC. Or just don't be a pilot in the first place, because seriously, only people with rational minds and good situational awareness and natively good decision making behavior should pilot an airplane... even in VFR.

Thank you for this post, I have watched so many of these videos of VFR into IFR and just couldn't understand how someone in a modern plane with all this gear could just lose it from flying into clouds. Your explanation is the best I have ever heard about the problems with IFR.

I've got 40 years of flying under my belt now, and earn a living as an international pilot. But, that almost didn't happen. At 30 hours total time 1.2 hours of instrument training, I had a weather system move in unexpectedly while trying to complete my second 100 miles leg over a long range of 3500 foothills in CA. Long story short, I got into the soup, and got vertigo while trying to triangulate my position on a map, to make sure I was clear of the hills while IFR... Somehow I was able to ignore my brain screaming at me that I was in a bank, when I was straight and level, and vise versa. Almost died yanking and banking...Scared the crap out of myself. It's hard to describe how disorienting it is, and how all but some basic reactions remain when you're that scared. RIP.

That's right! I forgot that Cirruses have chutes! Unbelievabe!

+steveo1kinevo my boy stevo. lurking in the ASI videos. They are a great resource. When's the next video coming out man? I really enjoy your videos. What kind of content is on the near horizon ?

steveo1kinevo hey watch ur vids all the time keep it up! ;)

steveo1kinevo Amen, no plan, indecision, .clearly in over his head and unfamiliar with the area. Apparently he didn't even have a map of electronic navigation tools. Very sad, the man took on more than he was capable of, the passengers had no choice. I've got family stories if overconfidence and inexperience with a little keeping up with the Jones's tossed in. Equals three dead, pilot (uncle) and two sons, wife survived, as terrible suffering at Brooks Army Hospital Burn Unit. His carelessness and failure to plan, maybe even showing off, had a terrible result.

steveo1kinevo Yes thank you, I've learned a great deal in what not to do as well as what you should do. The series is excellent, you all do a great job. It's truly sad that with so little experience a gentleman would attempt to risk his life as well as his passengers young lives. What could have given this man so much confidence based on so little training and so few hours in the cockpit? Turning back embarrassing? Maybe in his case, fellow pilots out of the suburban airport where I trained and now fly would not look at this situation and the need to get out of this area and head back home as embarrassing. Rest In Peace folks, life is fragile. Wouldn't this aircraft be equipped with a parachute?

So true! I try to watch any I can to learn from the mistakes of others

Yeah, no luxury of pride at that point...

Jo Momma Ditto!

LIKE BEARING RANGE AND ALTIMETER ALREADY?

"oh I'm embarrassed, time to die." I don't think like that, I'm like PAN PAN PAN I dropped my lighter how am I going to smoke this cigar?

I'm not going to "monday morning quarterback" this guy. Yes, some of what you guys have said might be true, but we can't get into his mind and don't know what exactly happened. And yes, his decision making was very poor, but we don't know if it was because of embarrassment, arrogance, pride or any such thing. While I can't be sure, my most likely take from listening to the conversation was, that he probably got panicked and nervous about a variety of things, and then that lead to a CHAIN of poor decisions, leading to him ultimately getting SPATIALLY DISORIENTED in the clouds, at which point NOTHING could have saved him, due to him being a low-time pilot with virtually no IFR time, which means he did not have the necessary experience to recover from that situation! First off, he might have have felt guilty for getting himself and his daughters in this predicament, leading to the chain of bizarre actions he took! His statement to controllers about "not wanting to mess with the weather and get out of the poor weather" is very telling! He was panicked and just wanted to "get outta there" without realizing that he does not know how far or where the "poor weather" extends to!! This is, of course, the worst decision he could have made, and most likely led to the tragedy! His best course of action, as others on here have suggested, would have been to ask for guidance to the nearest airport and get that plane down RIGHT AWAY! Spatial disorientation, as most of you know, is deadly and the person is generally unaware that its happening to them. This is exactly what was determined to be the cause of the JFK Jr. crash as well! There have even been crashes where experienced airline pilots have gotten spatially disoriented!! It is very hard to ignore what the brain is telling you through your physical senses, even though that information might be false. It takes good discipline, training and experience to be able to ignore that and follow the instruments!

You’re never really just risking your own life though. There’s always a chance you can kill someone on the ground.

Pilot, don't be a hero, don't be a fool with my life. Really tragic and 100% preventable.

Well said Chris, I couldn't agree with you more!

Thats the reason why I fly myself most .

Yeah, I'd love to fly myself but under no circumstances would I fly my children anywhere even if I had 10,000 hours under my belt and was the worlds greatest pilot.. Plane had a parachute too but apparently he was either too close to the ground to make it effective or it deployed itself as he crashed..

There are pictures online of this exact event from the Detroit free press it happened at the Jackson Mississippi Air show April 26 1949

Imagine surviving the war and dying this way.

I TOTALLY agree. That is painful to listen to. Such a needless end of life.

It's a perfect example of why aeronautical decision making is so important.

Yes. Very painful. I'll tell you - I've been looking at learning to fly... I've been watching videos... and the idea of flying with friends or family any kind of distance at all and not being IFR rated scares the crap out of me. Except for a tooling excursion around the airport... I've watched now too many of these videos where things start ok... and then turn to crap quickly. Or things are VFR and then poof - things turn to crap - it's IMC - and there is all this scrambling. I can't imagine ever taking off at all EVER in anything that comes close to IMC conditions anywhere along my journey... every video on RU-vid is either "OMG I thought we were dead..." or "and the plane crashes into the dirt"... I mean seriously - it scares the crap out of me going up, not having IFR, it turns to crap, you're screwed... in the soup... have no idea how to navigate.. have no idea what to do... disoriented... and boom - you kill everyone onboard including yourself... And it all seems so needless too... if you take the time to get IFR rated... this wouldn't have happened... I mean it's not like the Cirrus doesn't have the capability... if he had even some modicum of IFR facility - he'd have been able to fly fine... I watch and listen to this guy and I'm like "man - what the hell is the matter with you. You need that bird on the ground like it was yesterday. Quit dicking around and land the plane." Of course... he never does. Flight Chops calls this "get there itus"... I don't know if that's something everybody says... but it sure seems to be the #1 cause of getting people killed...

You shouldn't let this put you off flying. I agree, take the time, get experienced and learn IFR before you take your family up. The reason most videos that show up on RU-vid end badly is because the majority of flights that go without incident would be boring to watch all day. :-)

^^ this

I'm pretty sure he was aware of gravity.

@@TehNetherlands he was in denial.

@@TehNetherlands He was certainly aware when his plane was falling out of the sky

@@TehNetherlands Not at all

@@TehNetherlands He was perhaps not wanting to scare everyone in the plane so pretended to be calm..

Damn that sounds scary, probably all alone too huh?

I used to fly a little 172 steam gauge with a decent bendex/garman autopilot and this airport right next to where the plane i flew was hangered , would let me practice the ILS approach it was great. Definitely a learning curve I I didn't always capture the glide slope and keeping the needle where it needs to be takes some practice cause often times you might find yourself to low or high at the markers, but so fun when you can do it.

It’s so refreshing to see someone still knows how to use ‘literally’ correctly.

Strangely, in a lot of accidents were pilots got caught in meteorological instrument conditions, they were actually instrument rated. So another factor is suddenly getting caught up in tricky situations that you do not have a whole lot of experience with.

Sadly, it's rather common, isn't it? I think the public in general became aware of this when JFK Jr died. And you know their family members probably go up with them reluctantly, only half-trusting their "I know what I'm doing" protestations.

@@zyrrhos I was thinking about JFK Jr. as well.

Ego kills.

Resignation.

....it's only a bad decision when you die. If he had survived, he would have just chalked it up to his own genius and skill.

Well said.

Good call. During my training back in the 90's my instructors always told me: "If there's doubt, there is NO doubt." This with regards to anything related to aviation (probably elsewhere also).

"They have convinced me that, if there’s any doubt at all, stay on the ground" ...why would anyone have any doubt about getting into a light aircraft with a pilot who is barely qualified? You have to understand something about people who die in accidents. They were stupid! Seriously either stupid or very unlucky or a combination thereof. Fatally so.

@@touristguy87 That is a very foolish and unfair statement, especially in this instance when you are talking about a daughter flying with her dad who she probably looked up to her entire life and saw as larger than life. You might want to work on developing some empathy and compassion. It might not seem worth it at the moment, but it pays off down the road. As for the Kobe Bryant incident, the pilot there was highly qualified so so much for your theory on what causes people to die in accidents.

@@dondajulah4168 go away, hater of truth and reality

@@touristguy87 You might want to seek counseling dude. And I'm not going anywhere, so guess you're just going to have to deal with it or block me (probably would not be your first, LOL).

Plus, he didn't have to pay for any possible wedding between daughter and the boyfriend who was onboard. So, there's that.

Problem is he DID stick to his plans despite common sense, that's what killed him and his family.

Amen

Ah, Florida thunderstorms. I remember those. It'll go from clear skies and 90 degrees to seeming like you're underwater with the amount of rain falling, then back to clear skies, 90 degrees, 90% humidity. All in the span of 20 minutes. And seemingly at the same exact time every single day. Right around 2-3 PM in Orlando where I was.

I love happy stories like this....life is far too fragile to gamble.

Hell yea man! A lot of people I know think I'm too cautious (or perhaps a wuss even) but I refuse to even fly if the weather looks like it will be bad. I fly for fun, so if it ain't sunny and clear, I stay on the ground. Its not worth it!

Great story... shouldn't you always have a "plan B" and maybe a "plan C" in case of weather issues (and other potential problems) ? RIP to the 4 who lost their lives in this needless crash

Somewhat similar to Kennedy in 2000

I don't get it. How do you get disoriented when your instruments clearly display your attitude and heading? How was he navigating at all? I really don't understand, even with disorientation, how this happens. Your attitude indicator says your pointing at the ground. Un-do that. Are these guys really just that stupid?

@@Diax1324 Without training and discipline...a pilot can panic in solid IMC (loss of horizon) and ignore or not believe what the instruments say.

@@speedomars3869 ...Jesus christ. If your vacuum goes without visual, you're pretty much fucked anyways. May as well rely on your equipment. Man. Thats insane.

@@Diax1324 Search up spatial disorientation.

Yes, there should be a warning in all airports-- ladies and kids do not get into an airplane with a narcissist!!!!!

Unfortunately, that concept doesn't ring true. If you look at the Nall Report data, the majority of VFR into IMC accidents happen with an instrument rated pilot on board. Just holding the rating is one thing, being current and qualified is totally different. Requiring instrument rated pilots to be annually current is a non-starter, AOPA will vehemently oppose such a requirement.

My life's motto! My instructor told me if I wasn't going to become IR that he was not gonna to train me. That was 37 years ago. I don't fly anymore I enjoyed it for almost 30 years. Seeing how many people have lost their lives to this incipid way of being behind the yoke frustrates me to this day. It seems like it's still the biggest issue at hand. It should be a law. IR Planes with IR trained pilots would cut down on this crap immensely. Thanks Bruce I.

blancolirio I don’t understand how he could lose control of the aircraft and spiral out. Couldn’t he see his vsi screaming at him or his airspeed climbing...I just don’t get it

Situational awareness. Loss of concentration on the job at hand. Failure to act when the ego is trying its best to distract you to your death. I watched a skydiver spiral into the ground as we were boarding a King Air for a jump. When we landed, we all asked about the guy. They said EMS brought him back a couple times and asked him what went wrong. He said he was pissed off because he had missed a point in a formation - and that's all he could think about as he flew his fabric wing directly into the ground. They couldn't bring him back the third time.

Excellent point and a good reason not to be egotistical with ATC when flying

That slow spiral and loss of control is very common...part of IFR training is trusting your instruments instead of kinesthetic sense (aka, "seat of the pants") which can deceive you when no visual cues and inner ears provide no useful/false information. I've trained under the hood where the artificial horizon was gently banked in one direction but I could swear I was leaning another.

@@ronparker5589 like he would actually remeber what happend during ems trying to revive him. Cool story

Marginal VFR? Yeah I'm good gonna take the train or something. Marginal VFR means marginal chance at not dying.

Or get instrument rated / some serious instrument training at the very least. Pilots who never bother to do this are like people who never learn to swim driving speedboats, except worse because they put their passengers at risk too.

@@rykehuss3435 To me, having never been behind a yoke, marginal VFR means marginal IFR, in which case if I were not IFR rated, I wouldn't assume I could wing it.

Couldn't have said it better. As soon as this started and we hear the weather conditions, my first thought, knowing how it ended, was, "You idiot." And as you said, especially with your two daughters and a boyfriend. And, it's only a 3.5 hour drive to Du Page from Marion. The other thing I can't believe is that a CFI talked to him about it and apparently didn't advise against going.

@@davidmalone9022 I agree David, when I was young and single I did a lot of stupid stuff. Stuff that I look back on and realize I’m very lucky to be alive. When I got married, well….I still did stupid stuff, lol. But when I became a father, everything changed. I now had an obligation to be there for my son, and I couldn’t imagine him living with that sort of pain, especially because his dad was just being stupid and reckless, lol. I guess we live and learn don’t we?

I've been in very dense sea fog WITH a good radar. It was still unnerving. At least I could slow down. Pilots don't have that luxury.

Lived in both the Rockies and Appalachian mountains. Driving in bad fog is disorienting enough. I couldn't imagine piloting in it.

this guy did not have the right personality to fly planes.....more concerned about his family obligations well that didn't work out too well LOL

That’s what Kobe said

Hi Brian :)

...that implies that IMC is a guarantee that you won't die in IFR conditions.

That’s a ridiculous statement. Common sense prevails at all times. Those words are simply something you might say when conditions deteriorate when on ground or in the sky. IMC is important in my view if you intend distance flying VFR in nothing other than CAVOK conditions for the journey.

Marginal VFR means marginal chance at not dying if youre flying VFR in those conditions

same here, lately I have been having lots of thought about flying, even called a Local Flight school to inquire about a discovery flight.

I agree. I like the rational and logical conclusions.

Same here

Haven’t flown since 1953. Newly wed, expecting. Did a roll in a PT-13 and While inverted my seat belt gave a little. Open cockpit, like a PT 17 only different engine. Thought it had failed and me without a parachute. (Cost ten bucks whether needed or not). Scared me a lot. Well, I grabbed a handhold, finished the roll, and put it back on terra fir a. The thought that I might leave a pregnant widow was too much. I just hung up my jacket and enjoyed another 67 years. Sadly the last 20 without my beloved.

@Southy cool, how was it?

Another note about my grandfather was if it was too windy he would not fly. if the windsock was sticking straight out he wouldnt go. it had to be a nice day out to fly. He ended flying with over 4000 hours in both a Piper Tri Pacer and a Comanche.

he was smart

Not pride - stupidity

Exactly, poor decision, confusing communications, constant indecision, wow...R.I.P.🙏

@@johndonaldson3619 those 2 things coincide often

@@putinski666 agreed

As in all history “ pride commeth before the fall “

I wish my instructor told me that. I had to learn the hard way. Since then I've seen that even the airlines can't always keep schedules.

I'm with you there - a pilot just has to have the guts to call it off right away if things don't look right. I don't think passengers mind when a pilot is careful. The old wisdom has stuck with me over the years: Safety depends far more on a pilot's judgement than his/her skill. If there's an accident waiting out there, just don't show up.

Yep from the first second he opened his mouth he sounded like he was confused and totally unsure of himself.

@über alles rennen I felt the controller did speak in simple terms. He was actually very clear, concise and patient.

I don't think he had an IFR rating or much knowledge of it. @über alles rennen

he should never had been that close to dupage he should have landed well before he got in IMC conditions. It is never worth taking chances with others lives

I'm guessing he didn't want to deploy the chute because it would have totaled the plane and it wasn't his. I wish he would have listened and landed on 20R when Dupaige was going to let him sneak in.

@@Darkvirgo88xx Looking at the photos he did deploy it or it just came out on impact.

@@medwaystudios He probably deployed it too late. By the time he came out of the clouds he was moving quickly in a deep descent and under 1000'. I've heard of CAPS working as low as 700' but the plane was more or less level during that deployment.

@Kaplank I wonder if this pilot, and some others, even know what resources are available?

why did this guy not fly using his instruments when in the clouds. How can you fly visually, when there's nothing to see? Not a pilot but it seems common sense. Use your speed, altitude and attitude indicators and follow the advice of ATC they'll save your ass in this type of situation.

yes, I mean driving on a dark highway at night I turn my lights on a follow the lines painted on the road. Of coarse this not a perfect analogy, but close enough. This pilot fucked and was somewhat incompetent.

He was probably trying to use his ipad to find out where he was and lookup the airport chart for info. He slowly drifted to where the hsi no longer showed the horizon. He didn't know how to pull out of it.

@@toddlavigne6441 When you first learn to fly pilots learn to fly VFR, a lot of VFR is trusting your senses and looking outside for level flight, turns, etc. However, when you enter a cloud or IMC conditions those senses will now deceive you without proper training. Every pilot understands how the instruments work but when you have been taught for 60 hours how to fly with your senses and suddenly the senses start working against you it's inevitable that you screw up without proper training. Imagine flying straight and level but your mind and every sense in your body say you're in a turn, who do you trust then? www.askacfi.com/29639/why-is-flying-with-reference-to-instrument-difficult.htm

I was thinking the same - sometimes ATC folks should just tell pilots in stress clearly "look you should reconsider your decision and get on the ground as soon as you can. And we will try to help you get there" instead of saying "Ok.... if that's what you wanna do". People lack good decision making under normal conditions, let along under stress. ATC wasn't wrong but seems like he just washed his hands off and let the pilot continue to his inevitable demise.

@@raajashtaputre2803 That sounds nice on the surface, but its not their job. If ATC were to start making suggestions to pilots, you would see a lot of accidents CAUSED by ATC. Better for them to trust the pilot knows what's best for his aircraft rather than second-guess him. You can't fly an aircraft from your desk on the ground.

@@xxxxxxxxxxxx_xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I understand, it's a tricky situation. But could be a last effort to save a totally stress pilot who is about to kill himself. And I'm sure there are legalities involved as well.

Same here. Hated it at the time, but now.👍👍👍

Not a pilot, just a LONG time aviation fan, and have been in little 2 seaters since we owned an Aeronca Champ when I was about 7. It seems to me if the weather is so bad that you cannot see anything out the window anyway then by God that artificial horizon, altimeter, compass, and airspeed indicator have to become your eyes, IFR or not. With the exceptions where the instruments are lying to you (Air France 447) you have to have and use good information and use that damned radio. The radio equals other people's brains and info, and again, with some exceptions, you can usually count on the person at the other end of the radio to give you the best info and advice they can when you ask for it. Flying over a populated area means you are not an island and you are not alone. Hell, ground controllers have walked non-pilots through landing aircraft they've never been in before, much less flown so all options are on the table. VERY talented and experienced jet fighter pilots ask for help when they need it, and there is no reason not to do so. Leave the ego on the tarmac and get the job done.

Put the nose down and go straight ahead

sounds like a paranoid flight instructor

Primary instructors gave forced landings when recovering from a forced landing

Ramiiam No need for an emergency. Just focus on flying rather than worrying about geting stuck at an airport. Telling the truth to the ATC is also a great choice

ATC did a good job, the pilot just kept changing things up despite their help.

+Lucca_V declaring an emergency has one benefit: The pilot would force him self to make landing "as safe and soon as possible" to his top primary mission and ATC would keep an eye on him. It´s better to discuss what went wrong later then to be unable to do that.

Mixed signals precisely. All from mixed thinking. He wasn't flying the plane. He was trying to get somewhere.

@@LuccaValsamis A VFR pilot in IMC is an absolute emergency. There are countless stories of pilot deaths due to reluctance to declare an emergency and thinking they can "handle it." Declare the emergency, get maximum help and get down.

Yeah, I really love how the ATC for Du Prez (sp?) is super helpful. He deserved a commendation for the way he handled this. I hope this incident didn't burn him out.

This has the ring of ironclad conditions laid down by his Wife.

This is the real ATC conversation. They are easy to obtain. You are correct ATC when hearing something like this should take control and say we can get you down let us help. Getting down safely is more important you can get back home when it safe.

Thanks for this comment. It’s powerful.

Terrence Bradley I was taught about requesting a special vfr clearance in in ground school by my instructor and knew to request it even before I got my license. Strange that this guy with way more hours than I have didn’t know that.

No....not enough. I'd say 1,000 hrs.

A good friend of mine killed his wife and himself, ( the 6 mo. bay survived) while trying to make a VFR into IMC descent, he had no experience, but a bold attitude. I told him, don't fly anyone you love until you have at least 250 hours and a hell of a flight review. He did not listen.

Me too high desert antelope valley calif the best! But X wind landings gave a little challenge

Absolutely agree. I learned to fly out west and once made a trip out east. It was technically VFR but visibility was poor in the smog and haze. I hated it. Have never been back and would never have learned to fly -- or continued flying in that environment.

Yes that is Ray Harris the man who is the Pilot he owns a Chrysler Car dealership baffles me how someone who obvious has the money but choose to fly without proper training. He is embarrassed that he has gotten himself into trouble makes some really mad mistakes. I would bet he got a weather briefing but not before he took off maybe they reported broken clouds he thought he could do it VFR.

I have seen this syndrome for years. I call it the doctor/lawyer factor. Assertive personalities, with enough money to buy high performance aircraft, but not enough time, or maybe humility, to learn and practice the skills to fly competently. They end up killing innocent, trusting people and themselves. Get there itis is usually present.

John Wilkinson I

I think one has to consider the "150-Hour Syndrome" as well: Having enough experience to think you have a lot of experience. But yes, with that much time in a high-performance aircraft, I think we can all expect more professional comms.

@@airmuseum He did not sound assertive at all. Confused, indecisive, unable to articulate his ideas and wishes, and incoherent. Not at all the doctor/lawyer type.

Sully Sullenberger said that the reason he was able to land in the Hudson is that he was constantly reading accident reports and envisioning weird situations that could happen and what the right response would be. You'll probably be an excellent pilot.

@@cathleenrocco4804 thus far I have been described as a natural.. i love it. When the throttle goes in most if the world is left behind you, when your wheels leave the ground, nothing else matters.

@@cathleenrocco4804 I can't remember who said it but one of the best quotes I've ever heard is "we must learn from the mistakes of others because we will never live long enough to make them all ourselves"

+It is I When he said "I think I let it get around me" that said it all. And yet it seemed like he knew he was unprepared but still opted to go his own way. Weird.

It is I ego bigger than his brain

Avoid Chicago traffic. Save time. Not feel controlled by weather. These aren't good reasons, but they were his.

Maybe they should make OTR experience on a motorcycle a prerequisite? You'll learn quick how much you're at the mercy of weather.