Adaptive Weapon Proficiency in RPGs - Realistic? 

I love RPGs that lock items by level like: "Ah this helmet is much better than mine" *Shakes violently unable to put it on* "THIS. IS. BEYOND. MY. POWER!"

"Grab your Doritos and your Mountain Dew and get ready to nerd out." *when i first heard that* Oh my Skall, that's just stereotyping! *upon realizing i have Doritos and Mountain Dew right on my desk* Touche.

This is something I like about Kingdom Come, it has separate skills for swords, axes and maces, but also a "warfare" skill which is meant to quantify your general battle experience, your footwork, your ability to read the opponent's movement and so on.

Oh man, now I want to see two experts in just a weapon duel but using eachother's weapon of choice.

I think it's realistic, I tried to learn rapier fighting a while back, failed catastrophically, then latter I learned how to box, then I tried rapiers again and realized that I was a lot better because a lot of the footwork carried over as well as some of the strategies, knowledge of spacing and so on, not just that but it helped my knife fighting out a lot as well so my vote goes for it being 100% realistic

Don't you just love it when you're 3 mins into the video and RU-vid gives you the notification now.

On the katana/longsword comparison, as someone who has worked with both I can say that a katana wielder would be significantly hampered using a longsword for 2 reasons: different guard, and different length. Katanas use a disc shaped tsuba vs a straight crossguard. The projecting quillons can actually get in the way of some katana techniques. Also, the general rule for a katana is that the blade should not touch the ground when gripped at the tsuba. The average longsword is at least 6-8 inches longer. That additional length can be a mixed blessing, affording added reach, but also decreasing maneuverability, relatively speaking. Surprisingly, I've found katana and messer to be more compatible. The nail on the messer guard provides protection on 3 sides, more equivalent to the katana's disc guard, and the blade length is typically closer.

i always see that you can always go down in complexity easier. for examply you hand a mace to a guy who is proficient with an axe, he'll know precisely what to do with it, doesn't work quite that well if you go the other way. similarily, anyone who is proficient with any melee weapon is going to have an advantage over someone who has no training, simply because of all the things that have nothing to do with the weapon, such as the abillity to guage distances.

Watching the falchion versus Talwar makes me feel instead of splitting weapons into weapon classes it would be more sensible to split them into combat styles, for example, drawing, hewing, thrusting, binding, one handed (Balanced), One handed (Top heavy), Two handed (Hilted) Two handed (Hafted) and so forth, with some weapons having better scaling in certain attributes than others if they have any at all.

Jackie chan translates his weapon proficiencies to other weapons all the time. Like ladders...and revolving doors...and chairs...and steering wheels

As Lindeybeige put it: a person with a lot of experience fighting with swords would tend to have a lot of experience with "fighting" period. Thus, they wouldn't be completely screwed using a different weapon.

Man. I don't know if there's anything nerdier than breaking out a damn GURPs book and I'm so here for it

More super geeky topics like this please! That was awesome. Interestingly. More modern RPGs are foregoing single weapon proficiencies and instead have skills like "light weapons". I guess they are dumping realism for sake of simplicity. Who knew the old school RPGs had it right all along:) Also nice to know you are a GURPs fan. Yes skill lists in the hundreds is also my thing haha.

I got the notification and honest to God thought he was talking about the RPG-7 and the first thing that went through my head was "Soviet heavy weaponry is a bit out of character for Skall"

Heard the word "games", and then the music and the game weapon sounds, and my half asleep self for a moment felt like I was actually about to play an online medieval themed game XD

Request: You often see depictions of kids or terrible soldiers wearing pots and pans and colanders and using kitchen utensils to fight. Can you analyse these things and see how effective they actually would or wouldnt be?

Great video. I love your serious treatment of the technical aspects combined with the overall lighthearted tone and acknowledgment that it's a nerdy subject.

Yeah, that Indian blade would be quite difficult to use for a practitioner of more traditional swords -- you're deprived of some of your best moves, namely unscrewing the pommel and ending thine opponent rightly.

One thing to remember is that proficiency with certain weapons can aid with others in abstract ways. Even if you're a rapier master and have to use a katana, while youre not versed in properly executing the slashing strikes required to make a katana a great weapon, you do have hand-eye coordination and exceptional footwork. No matter what sword you're using, having an understanding of spacing and footwork is a broad skill that applies to nearly all swords, even if its in different ways. Much like a sai user might not understand how to use a large, single edge'd hunting dagger well, they still have the skills and understanding required to get into striking range, as well as the coordination for landing blows. So while its definitely true training in one particular weapon doesnt mean another will be very effective, it does mean you will have a lot of the required mechanics to adapt. Infinitely more so than a person with absolutely no training in that weapon at all.

The one thing I like in D&D 5e, any class can use any weapon. I actually had a human sorcerer use a shortsword instead of a dagger. Reason is, my guy was of the Noble background, and most Nobles aren't going to use a knife in a fight - they use swords! Granted, I lost the proficiency bonus, but since shortswords have the Flexible trait I could still use my dexterity modifier for my attacks. Of course, as a magic user, with like 23 hit points (+8 temporary hp, due to my Inspiring Leader feat) and a 15 AC (My guy was of the dragon bloodline subclass) I was rarely in the front anyways, so I barely used it for combat, and it was more for flavor, but it's still something. In fact, there's a story somewhere about a magic user, who didn't have any mundane weapons, who upset some tough guards, only to discover real quick that they were out of magic, and tried to run away, only for them, and their party, to get trapped in the room. The party decided to fight the guards, but the magic user kept running in circles, not trying to attack (why they didn't use cantrips, I don't know). Some members of the party were like "Take my back-up weapon so that you can fight!" but he was like "No thanks! Can't hit with those!" to which others were like "Be better than nothing!" I think they got rid of him for his exceptional foolishness.

"knifes are not swords technically" "i love my kriegsMESSER" :>

Imagine how someone used to rapiers would feel if they had to use somethink like a sweihander. Or vice versa really. That could be a cool dueling video. Two specialists swap weapons.

So here is my understanding of the characteristics of weapons that determine their similarity. - Length - weight - Intended motion (curved edge slash, straight edge hew, or stabbing, in that order) - available motions (for instance, a sai lacks edges entirely, making it a stabbing only weapon) - 1 or 2 handed - Existence of hand protection - Number of edges (1, 2, or 0, in that order) If you account for all of those, then congratulations, your rpg is probably unplayably dense, but you have achieved realism.

Love those roleplaying related topics, very informative!

Glad to have you validate my system. It's already designed to follow what you've been saying. Thanks.

basically we need a "Footwork" skill more than anything loool

Cool video :) , Also ooh I am a fan of your coat at the end of the video.

D&D is actually worse than most systems, in this regard. (I play D&D, so I would know.) In D&D, they lump various vastly different weapon types together. For example, a glaive (the polearm, not the shuriken thing) and a greatsword both fall under martial melee (and in D&D, if you have martial weapon proficiency, you can use them ALL), yet you have no penalty to either one being used.

I know this video is old, but it is really awesome! I really want to get into tabletop roleplaying! Now I've been always a videogame player, and some RPGs I can remember that impemented something similar to this have been: Final Fantasy II = You level up your skills rather than your character, which was pretty cool and IMO felt more realistic than the standard leveling system... I mean just kill a million wolves and then you'll be able to kill a cosmic horror... doesn't make sense, but with enough skill, even luck, basically anyone can defeat a stronger more trained warrior. World of Warcraft (vanilla to WOTLK) = Your class had access to specific type of weapons, you could even learn to wield a different kind of version not standard for your class but you could go to the weapon master to learn how to use it and then you had to skill up your weapon skills, under-leveled weapon meant you would miss a lot and hit weaker, which helped a lot in immersion Final Fantasy XI (yeah another MMORPG) = Kinda similar to WoW but in this case you could basically use weapons suited for your class, and had to skill up otherwise you would miss a lot and hit weak, also your class had weapon rankings that determined which was the max skill level you could level your weapon to (for example a Dark Knight could skill up Scythe to max level, followed by 2 handed sword, but if you wanted to use a single handed sword your max skill level was really underwhelming)

GURPS is exactly what made me wonder about this particular subject. Good work.

Cool, really informative video. Also, that jacket is bad ass. =D

With using a different weapon skill is my favorite RU-vid video

That bit at the end with the *stylish jacket* was actually pretty funny and original

I loved Steve Jackson's "GURPS". This is a good discussion. Thank you :)

Dude I love that clip at the end. Sick jacket right there

Nicely said... I like your adaptation on gurps :) and advice for any rapier and dagger fencers - take some boxing lessons, it can really help you with hand technique

I love that you have a GURPS book on hand, it's my first choice system to use.

Excellent video, as always. I do especially enjoy this type of video, being an avid gamer by entire life. Also, where might one acquire that coat?

That ad at the end was pretty clever.

Since you have the GURPS book, check out the familiarity rule at the start of the skills section. It makes different weapons using the same skill take some time to get used to, and characters with more points invested in the skill start off with more familiar weapons, as well as a random chance for a new weapon to be similar enough to adapt to easily.

that advertising at the end was awsome

Sais have two modes, depending on how you want to use them. At 4:25, that is using them in a more defensive manner. The other mode is using them more like a parrying dagger and for added reach. I've had some time using them and while they are easy to learn, a person does need some training with them to be effective.

Btw, thank you for this video. Gives me more to analyze about the role playing game I am making.

The D&D movie, Honor Among Thieves, has a scene worth noting for this sort of thing. The group is in a Gladiatorial Maze. No one has a weapon, and thus the group knows that they need to find some. Also, the Sorcerer and Druid have Magic Nullifiers attached to them, so no spells or transformations. Druid (a Tiefling, mind you) finds a sword in a chest - looks to be an arming sword sort (either a shortsword or a longsword, which druids aren't proficient with, unless they are an elf, have the Weapon Master Feat that has it included, or they multi-classed into/out of a class that has proficiency with them - using D&D 5e rules that is). Barbarian also checks out a chest - It's a Mimic! Druid uses their sword to chop off the creature's tongue to rescue the Barbarian. So, regardless of if you like the movie or not, it does include how in a pinch, even a spellcaster will grab a sword.

There was a moment of this in the movie Fearless (I think) where, in a duel between a katana and a 3-section staff, the two weapons got swapped out and the users had to improvise for a couple exchanges. Having used other sword types throughout the movie, the main character did well enough with the katana he ended up with, while the other guy just resorted to using the 3-section staff folded up as a blunt weapon. As soon as he tried to do anything else with it unfolded, he clanged himself in the head with it. Really highlighted the "it depends" nature of the thing.

I've seen games where you use a scimitar to perform thrusting attacks, so yes, if you do that sort of things you could adapt to any weapon

love the ending ad.

Seeing GURPS get love really makes me happy. D&d is great and all but the gospel of GURPS deserves a lot more attention.

Great video.

Congrats on 1 million

I like going with a weapon triangle, you have in the three corners chopping, cutting and thrusting with the most specific weapons at each edge and the most balanced weapon going in the middle, how you apply the penalty is that it becomes heavier and heavier the farther you move away from the point in which your weapon proficiency lies with an additional penalty if the grip changes (handshake one-hand, hammer one-hand, two-hand, one-and-half does not cause a penalty to the weapon proficiency but to the weapon itself, with slightly less power in hits and parries if you use it as a two-hand and slightly less dexterity as a one-hand no matter what your grip specialization is)

Every time I watch one of your videos, I wanna make a new D&D character based on the topic.

You said there is a difference between bo and quarterstaff. Since these are quite the same weapons could you elaborate about the difference in fighting techniques?

I would like to add though that the pointwork you need with a rapier can be very useful in longsword fencing, especially when you consider that a lot of longsword fencers don't thrust that much, meaning that it can have some surprise factor. And you can perform a lunge similar to a rapier lunge with a longsword(not the most common thing, but can be done)and that is also quite effective, at least in my experience. And the cutting done with longswords can also help when performing cuts with rapiers. Of course it doesn't translate perfectly, but it does overlap very well and definitely enough to improve your effectiveness with both.

Somehow hadn't seen this until now. You get a like for the old school GURPS book in hand, sir.

"grab your Doritos and Mountain Dew" -- well I don't have those but I did grab for the Jack Daniels and Nilla wafers...

Great vid. I use Chinese Dao and Jian techniques combined, so I have to use the katana or sabre. Really love both these weapons although I find it far easier to thrust with the katana somehow.

More RPG-related-stuff please! ^^

A GURPS bearer! Once upon a time there was a system named "7th Sea" where fencing styles was a bit more relevant. This system clearly differentiated swords, for instance, by its balance: longswords, great swords, fencing swords, saber-like blades (with the fulcrum point near to the tip), etc. And there was different fencing styles as well. Some inspired on real world renaissance, others in movies and so on.

I don't know why, but at this particular moment, I'm loving falchions, they were never my favorite before but I'm really enjoying them now. The last bit about a saber master being thrown off because he has to use a different sword reminded me of the Jackie Chan cartoon. Jackie and his allies get taken into a tournament with specific rules and uniforms to wear. The uniforms and specific rule changes were an attempt to prove who was better in an even fight as the whole thing was set up by the villain, but the heroes lost from slight disadvantages such as not being used to a looser uniform causing them to slip up in the tournament but put them at an extreme advantage in the actual fights

Personal experience of spinning a short staff with weighted ends then trying out nunchuck. The static aspect as apposed to the rigidness throws ya for a loop but a lot of the techniques carried over enough so that I could seriously spin nunchuck in a manner that I was confident moving around and not hitting myself. With that said every object does have techniques strictly related to that object. Depending on the state of mind it could work in a pinch, and your skill level is watered down but just depends how proficient your opponent is In that weapon

I took a few fencing classes away back. My friends one day decided to get foam swords to duel with, and I had a hard time slashing but I could parry and reposte. Sure I could hit my friends (who had no experience wielding a sword at all), but when another friend who had taken longsword training came by all I could do is parry half the time. I got him twice, on the first bout because he didn't know I fenced and once more when I got lucky.

In the Riddle of Steel & in the Blade of the Iron Throne rpg systems, you have some proficiency types (brawling, cut & thrust, dagger, greatsword, lance, longsword, mass weapon & shield, etc). Depending on what you spend your points on you get all sort of defaults for the other proficiency based on how similar the weapon/style is, for example, if I put 11 points on Longsword, my Greatsword skill will be at a -1 since its similar, but my brawling skill will be at -4 since there's no synergy. So, at least in this system, its not about using something at a [variable] disadvantage, but using it less skillfully than you would otherwise with your better proficiency, while also mimicking the overall weapon know-how a warrior would have picked with all sort of weapons during its career. Its a pretty neat system, the best there is for brutal, tactical, authentic non-wizardly melee combat.

Witnessed this firsthand when a friend of mine who's familiar with the messer tried using a sidesword. Even though the actual motions are very similar, just the different way of gripping the sword made it nearly unusable for him. And on the other end I, being most familiar with the rapier, tried picking up a sidesword, and even though I had a hard time executing the "proper" moves for a sidesword, I was still able to fight somewhat decently well simply by treating it like a shorter and wider rapier because the basic shape and the way of gripping the sword were similar enough.

Whoa. What is that black machete - survival blade hybrid? It looks awesome!

The way to look at it.Straight swords focus on chopping swings, curved sword focus on drawn swings. You would chop and have the edge of a straight sword impact a target, but the curved swords focuses more on swinging in a linear curve and the target is in the way. Both has similar motion but one of them targets a point to attack directly, the other chooses a angle or a line to slice from.

I find the concept of the 'false friend" phenomenon interesting. It would imply that habits in one style would be more detrimental when inappropriately applied to another style than attempting the other style completely untrained.

I did want to mention on the topic of the bo staff, the key advantage is that you change the grip, so you actually do hold the bo like a quarterstaff in the majority of cases. You especially see this in Taijutsu. The center grip is good for tight, twirling and spinning maneuvers, but you lose the bo's range, which would lease you at a serious disadvantage against katana. Keep in mind the bo is largely regarded as a good counter to the katana. Anyway, point is you could actually use the naginata with the same style of training as the bo; you just need remember you've got a blade on one end, not the other.

Woo! GURPS is my favorite system and the only one I will GM for, just so damn fun. Also, i agree that proficiency should share to a degree with weapons that have similar movements or are capable of those movements. A French cavalry saber and a chinese liu ye dao or even an ottoman shamshir CAN be used all in the same way due to the similar weight, shape and specialization however a cavalry saber unlike the others is usually longer due to the need to reach a foe from horseback, and the liu ye dao posesses a strong recurve on the grip, lending itself to a different style of combat. On the other hand the shamshir has a more heavily curved blade. All three can be used in place of another with minimal disadvantage. However, if that Chinese liu ye dao practitioner was given a Scottish claymore they would be at a substantial disadvantage due to it's weight and two-handed nature. This is very incompatible but the china man understands that the last 1/3 of the blade near the tip is the preferred striking zone and is very familiar with edge alignment and balanced blade; he would be able to use this weapon more effectively than a billhook or a war pick due to the entirely different points of balance and techniques involved. The claymore would be foreign but adaptable, used at a disadvantage. The billhook or pick would be totally alien and used at base dexterity value. One last note, for those who think that SOME proficiency should be brought to every weapon due to knowing how to manage reach and hand eye coordination... That would be your base dexterity, not your proficiency with that weapon.

"I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it." Mathew Quigley

it may sound weird, but I like the idea of intelligence reducing penalties. for example, you may not have practiced with a rapier, but you have seem the techniques and studied them, so you will know what you are supposed to try. or in the case of a very exotic weapon you never seem before, you may look at its design and figure out how it was designed to be used.

Have a look at the last duel in Rob Roy for a pretty good example of how a rapier doesn't work like most other swords.

oof i just subscribed a couple of minutes ago and now a new video!

I don't drink Mountain Dew or eat doritos. What should I get instead? Salted pork?

I would like to say much like languages the more weapons you train in the easier it is to adapt to knew ones as you get used to diferent body mechanics and styles of weapon(parrying, blunt, polearm, single edged one handed, etc.) Eventually you can just kinda get a weapon even if you dont know how to use it like its "meant to" you would eventually get good enough to be atleast effective with pretty much any weapon. Also certain weapons translate suprisingly well like knife fighting, to rapier fighting

The Parrying dagger grip you used is the same as one of many used on sai. So I would say they are VERY close as I have used both weapons I can tell you they have much in common. A sai can however be used like a club, and the Main-gauche can be used to cut. The sai is not an edged weapon.

@3:29 That is one correct way to hold a sai.

I enjoy videos in which you use books, movies, TV shows, and games to explain historical combat. I have no experience in weapons based martial arts, so fiction is the only frame of reference that I have. Also, thumbs up for GURPS.

There are techniques with the sai where it is held like a parrying dagger. I guess those can also be done with a parrying dagger to some extend. But the grip that you show, which is most commonly used will not work with a parrying dagger. The idea of this grip is to use the tsuka for punching techniques, the yoku for grapple like techniques (it is not comfortable to have those poking in your flesh) and the monouchi is a form of protection for you arm.

Stick them with the pointy end

I read the title as "With Using Weapon a Different Skill"

Really interesting, thanks! :) What do you think about RPG systems with a singular "fighting" skill that has specialisations for different weapontypes?

Some Eastern fighting styles are what are called "secret sword" fighting styles. I've trained in one, they teach you to use weapons in terms of navigating your way around the weapon's weight. Once you get an intuition for the weapon's weight and center of gravity, you can use it with the style. It might not be the same as the standard styles that use that weapon, it will be the secret sword's style of using any of it's other weapons, but it still manages to use them pretty well by just powering it with the footwork and moving around the center of balance in the correct way.

I actually, Unknowingly, made a very realistic system for crafting weapons in a prototype gaming system which has been thrown into the trash as of now. It had different classifications of Melee Weapons (Slashing, Hewing, Thrusting, and Throwing) . You are proficient in the certian classification and they each do different damage based on the technique you use. I'll provide an example (Is not very good) One of my players had a fairly traditional European arming sword. This sword was considered a slashing weapon and had 2d6+1d4 slashing and thrusting damage, and 2d4+1d4 hewing damage. So you could use it to hew but it had a -4 maximum damage, I don't entirely remember how this system worked but I feel if I had refined it more it could have been fairly interesting.

An intelligent and experienced fighter would most probably catch the basic tecniques of any weapon he was not familiar with.About mastery I think that would need much longer time. Anyhow an experienced and intelligent fighter would also try to find a master of that specific type of weapon and would took courses to learn the hardcore tricks....If he lived his entire life with the love and obsession of weapon mastery. Original subject and video with great details and drawings. Thank you. :)

You should do this on the realism if the weapons and armor profiencies for 5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons

For sais you switch between the shown grip and a more conventional grip, so some techniques are transferable. Also, the shown grip allows you to "pommel-punch".

GURPS!!! never actually played but WHOO!!!

Can't speak for melee weapons, but for firearms, well, sometimes one does have to work on things a bit. For instance, your typical shotgun for hunting is a bit longer than one made for the military, let alone one made for home defense. Then there's ammo capacity - a hunting shotgun might have up to 5 rounds, but a riot shotgun can hold up to ten, due to the fact that the ammo tube is as long as the barrel itself on a riot shotgun, but is much shorter in a hunting shotgun (to be in compliance to laws of hunting migratory birds like ducks and geese). Then there's the different grips. Granted, a police officer or soldier trained with a tactical shotgun might be able to use a civilian shotgun in a life or death situation, especially if they've used one before, and likewise a regular civilian could use a tactical shotgun for hunting if they had to, but both have their different capabilities.

Anyone else watching the back wall while he's swinging the shamshir around, seeing if the tip is going to connect?

A spiked club and an one handed ax are so similar in use practically that I would say a minimal or even non-existent debuff for it makes sense. Wack 'em with the pointy bit isn't that complicated. While there are different vastly different techniques and one has certain requirements the other doesn't; the base concept of "apply heavy sharp part to enemy" is similar enough. Maybe a minus one.

Handle shapes and blade length make very different handling even it the same style of weapons. I just purchased a Cold Steel barong machete, I have had a Condor barong machete for years and so it was surprising the differences. Condor handles like a long knife nimble and quick. The longer blade and different handle of CS opens up hand and a half techniques. The longer blade reduces nimble attributes. In a close hallway, automobile, or closet I would pick the Condor. Open fields big rooms definitely the Cold Steel.

You should talk about ranged weapons with the same topic.

P.s. I thought of Skall today I bought a Star Wars Technical book and in it was the deconstruction of a Lightsaber and clearly marked as a separate removable part was the Pommel. WOW I thought Sith & Jedi can end someone rightly too !!

Haaaaaaa long time not use the GURPS sistem, i love that book

Skallagrim can you teach us some disarms? Like say in a sword fight teach us how to disarm the opponent.

It is a correct grip for the sai. But there are also grips that are more dagger like.

Tulwar Handles are especially designed that way to force you to a drawcut, thats when they are most effective.

I'm remembering that scene from 13th Warrior where Ibn/Eben, who is trained in fighting with shamshir-like weapons, must use a European spatha-type sword and isn't very good with it. Props to whoever did the fight choreography for that movie for the realism of that moment.

4:45 - not a baa-a-a-d sheepsfoot blade you've got there.