Addressing EvsW, WAF vs IFA, Bans, Contracts and Engin 

Youre great❤armwrestling(you, devon, ermes, arkona) safed my life..from a 12 year long heroin addict to gym and armwrestling traning..❤❤

Name a more iconic duo than Coach Ray and being tired.

For such small sport armwrestling has way too much drama on one square centimetre 🙄

Armwrestling must stand together against one guy and this is Assen Hadjitodorov from Bulgaria who is president of WAF and EAF!

This mess with WAF vs IFA is a mess that's drains the energy from all of us, in some shape or form. And with Engin, you don't have to agree with him on everything, but people can't deny the hard work he's done for the armwrestling world, and that deserves respect! Hope you're well Ray, and well done on your win! 💪🇸🇪

Engin dragged Arm Wrestling of its ass after COVID.

engin did listen and improved the live events with a live crowd. kudos to engin

Engin is doing what he needs to do to get by and avoid conflict with waf. That involves him taking instructions from them and using the power of his organisation to punish their rivals. It is not unreasonable for people to dislike this. Engin clearly isnt carrying out a vendetta, but he is putting his interests before the freedom of US athletes who have no interest in WAF....you would think being disinterested in WAF would be enough...but no they have made East vs West a powerful proxy for their agenda. I honestly dont think engin has any other option, and i dont want him to stop his events but i dont enjoy the world being like this.

What about rhe corruption in WAF?

IFA must be the only worldwide organisation that does not require qualification to compete or limit the amount of competitors from each country. It would be like starting a new soccer world cup that my local pub team can compete at. Engin is the first person to convince the best pullers that they need to compete against each other to prove who is the best. Before, when there was 2 groups of champions they didn’t know and neither did we.

How about the Bulgarian president and now WAF president issue?? I heard some bad things about it. Are they true or not? I am not here to judge, but I think at least it should be adressed...

I agree about the contacts. There is no better orgs than EvW and Kott today, so being under their contract is good for the athletes and fans also, because we have many EvW and Kott events per year and it's not like that high level pullers have free time to compete somewhere else for less money againts lower ranked opponents, because Kott and EvW have more than enough events per year than any high level pullers willing to compete

In summer last year I sent several detailed messages to Engin in Turkish and asked him to bring spectators onto the stage of EvW in order to make the live atmosphere of the event much more exciting and intense, and I also asked him to set microphones at the table. He never replied but two or three months later, he did exactly what I had asked him to do, and we finally had a great crowd of VIP fans on the stage, and since then we can also hear what the athletes are talking with the refs and with each other. Therefore I can absolutely confirm that Engin IS actually listening to us.

Where does WAF profits go? That needs to be 100% transparent and leaders accountable for growth to happen. Maybe someone should start an athlete association to protect the people responsible for all revenue generated.

make a live stream and talk with us about every question

Rules are rules isn't an argument. Two organizations working independently are not necessarily working 'against' each other. Much respect for what you do, and no dog in this race, but these are the arguments of a pretty biased take.

Talk with Plamen Dimitrov and Yordan Tsonev The segregation itself, at least in Bulgaria, exists because WAF unapologetically steals money from athletes. In Latvia maybe the government funds are used for their purpose and everyone gets payed what they deserve, but it isn't like that everywhere.

Why hasn't Engin invited Plamen Dimitrov or Yordan Tsonev to compete??!!

Same reason the UFC and any serious promotion has contracts: you don't want a fighter to have a match in another organisation a few weeks before their match in YOUR promotion, because there's a high chance they don't come in fresh or get injured. This puts the card and the credibility of the matches at risk. It's simple. You want serious money, you have to do something back, that's called: commitment.

As most of you know, I'm one of the original founders of King of the Table with Larry Wheels. If you know anything about me and Larry, you know that we give a lot of opportunities to athletes that have little to no exposure through our social media channels, etc. I am in agreement with Engin as well. If someone is competing in multiple classes, it's not fair to deny others the opportunity. I don't think anyone can deny that Engin has done more for the sport than just about anybody. Also, East vs West is Engin's organization. He can make whatever rules he wants, but again, I think this rule is fair. Lastly, whether you believe it or not, Engin listens to all feedback. He's made changes before, and he does it for the betterment of the sport.

Thanks for clearing this stuff up, its hard to know what goes on behind the scenes.

Why can't people compete in both? Like boxing has more than one world federation, winning all belts makes a guy undisputed. "Rules are rules" i's a dumb argument when the rules are stupid because 2 federations are pointing fingers at each other. Imagine KOTT started saying EvW agents can't do KOTT events. The fans suffer. That's would be pretty stupid. But to anyone sitting on engin, he practically single handedly saved arm wrestling. It was dying during covid and he moved mountains to give us INSANE matchups when noone else was doing anything. Larry wheels did a lot also with kott.

I feel that generally when people in power impose rules that the rest of us have to deal with, there’s two common responses: 1. coping with the rules by just accepting that they’re the way things “have” to be so you can at least benefit from conforming to the system, and 2. outcrying in hopes of changing them. Both groups are in direct opposition to one another, but both ultimately fight for the same liberation. I personally believe WAF and IFA can coexist without these childish bans. But I will try to remember to direct my criticisms towards WAF, not other fellow athletes who just want to arm wrestle. When it comes to Engin, here’s where it gets tricky. Is he someone in power, or is he a fellow arm wrestler? I think he’s both. He genuinely wants the best for arm wrestlers and the sport of arm wrestling itself. But he is also in a position of authority. I understand he is still at the whims of WAF and national federations though, as his power cannot yet override theirs. I think the arm wrestling community can do better by directing a lot of their criticisms towards WAF rather than towards Engin when it comes to things Engin can’t control. And I think Engin could do better by responding towards fans an athletes with compassion, rather than with an attitude of “I did all this for you, you better respect me”

Thanks to your content and the big laughs with Devon and Ermes I started armwrestling and knew awesome people. You added something very great to my life thank you coach !!❤

Support from Antigua in the Caribbean💪🏽🇦🇬

People STILL dont understand how lucky we are to have Engin doing this shit FOR US

Some people think that in a perfect world athletes could just jump around and do whatever they want and that it would be better for the sport, the fact is no sport exists in which athletes can do that. and oftentimes it would actually make the sport less cohesive and lower the overall quality.

Rules are rules. My question is, do any of these rules need to be adjusted?

100% Ray. The more we strengthen Engin's hands, the more he will give back to the community. East vs West is the best thing that happened to both athletes and the fans and we all have a responsibility to protect it and to help make it bigger every time. 💪🏽💪🏽

the armwrestlers trust engin 100% he wont fck them over

Engin has worked so hard to unite east and west it pains me to see anyone ban athletes and cause separation. Once you ban someone and try to forcibly control a situation you show how insecure your position is. Thankfully we have so many organisations in the world striving to do better; progress has become like water flowing downhill, nothing can stop it now and people will remember those like engin and coach Ray the most for bringing the sport together 🙌

“Just the rules” isn’t a great explanation.

Good evening my friend I hope you’re doing well and you get some sleep also thank you for sharing your information

Here’s a idea take a group of like 5 of are true legends and have them decide a set of rules.

2:41 all this time Ray has been the president of Latvia while also doing East vs West commentator

I’m sticking with Coach RAY 💪💪💪

Thank you Ray!! Very clear!! Greetings from the southernmost City in the world!! 💪🏻

How about Deon he holds two different positions in two different weight classes?

Eventually I will earn my way into a match on EvW and KOTT - Great promotions! Engin is doing wonderful things with EvW 💪🏻

Coach, you're a good man, you're one of the people who helped sparked my interest in arm wrestling. You're doing a great job!

Excellent explanation.

17:25 Muratov's quote

can someone tell me when waf was in canada last and when it will be in canada again!

Thanks for the breakdown. After talking with a few top guys here in America we dont even know about the bans or rules or the difference in any of the leagues. People just dont know bro.

I definitely don't agree with Engin on many things in life... At the same time i never blindly blamed him for "everything" and the contract situation is a thing to be wached and discussed constantly. Now this "rule" about "DON'T you DARE to critique me because i am the man and a passion one" is a rule i have zero obligation to understand, follow, nor like.. People have the right to be "passioned" and "angry" as well Ray... It may be mindblowing to some of you, but people can critique hard while not under the concept of wanting to "hurt" Engin personaly and deliberately. Big up AW!!

What would u say tho to the people in south east asia, cause there are almost no waf competitions there and they cant just fly to europe to compete at waf....

How "restrictive" are EvW/KoTT contracts? I basically see it just tied to the org (compete only with us with special permission to aw in different orgs because xyz reasons) Do people forget the restrictive WAL/PAL contracts or in general sporting contracts can be? Hope current AW can protect themselves. I assume AWer can garner sponsorship for themselves (how that's expressed remains to be seen with current production value in EvW/KoTT)? Do contracts/athletes (Gegrad Mousasi in MMA has similar issues with PFL) have any sitpulations where "x athlete needs to compete in Y amt of time (barring anything extraneous) and if not, X athlete can ask for release"? Are contracts based off time and/or amt of arm matches per yr? Are there PPV points given to select high earning AWer who promote the event? I think last I heard, i think devon v levan 1 had 30k PPV buys, is that right? I put my money where my mouth is, basically buy all the PPVs, as a soon to be 41 yr old, I remember the birth/rise of UFC/Pride/MMA so I'm hoping to see more of that here, cept better pay/contracts cuz not all MMA guys can live off the sport. Thanks Ray.

Organizations need to protect their interests and investments. It's very expensive to hold a tournament like EvW.

I will not tolerate Engin slander, he is the grandpa of arm wrestling

Crazy to me people would be ignorant enough to assume such things about Engin… Engin has gone beyond proving himself to have nothing best interest of the arm wrestlers at heart & he sure seems to be nothing but absolutely devoted to the greater good armwrestling. Engin has done more for the sport of armwrestling, and it seems every decision he makes is done with careful consideration & diplomacy towards the best interest of all the athletes he cares very much for & growing the sport he so greatly loves.

Love the KotT and EvW live streams, but investment needs to be made into the sound engineering of the events. It unfortunately takes ALOT away from the experience.

How come some of the Bulgarians are banned from waf/EvW like yordan tsonev, pleman Dimitrov?

You have to Love and Respect Engin for what he's done for Armwrestling! I see Armwrestling going up and up from here forward, But Testing for Steroids should be implemented in the Sport to make it Fair across the Board! Certain People are just abnormally Strong in the Sport and getting help through their use.

Voice of Armwrestling and the Voice of Reason.

Why are Gaby and Sarah Bachman competing at the qualifiers if they're already set for future cards? Engin said he didn't know why they would be competing at the qualifiers when they are already invited. Aren't they taking someone's spot needlessly?

Hey Ray, keep up the great work! It’s just an epidemic of newer ignorant fans talking about things they know nothing about. And the internet is just full of trolls.

It's funny nobody mentions matches from WAF, why not? Are people not allowed to cover it? I haven't even seen any in a while.

Ray could Bowen beat you now?

I'm not following? Am i missing something? Did some new thing kick off with the organizations or something?

Seems like people are confused about these things and many people are thinking Engin is the one who is responsible with these things. Engin needs to make a video about these things

Engin is a benediction for the sport !! Thanks for the explanation !!

@voiceofarmwrestling Honestly I cannot understand this situation. WAF & IFA should be proud to have some members,competing at high level and joining KOT and EvsW events. India is growing also in arm wrestling and probably more thousands of dollars are going to be invested locally in Asia. It Should be wiser that USA/CANADA and EUROPE try to collect resources together in order to prevent any unpleasant formula that could damage this wonderful sport.

When you have no good argument to make: "RuLeS aRe RuLeS" .....

Engin is awesome

Discipline equals freedom. Wtf 😂

Hopefully he improves in all aspects yes.. because paying ppv and enjoying what he is doing (Engin) with Armwrestling does mean that we respect him and we like what he does but when he reacts for some comments on his posts he literally rages like kid 😅

I will never in my life give credit where credit is due.

Engin is doing great things, people get jealous. Its jealousy.

It blows my mind that adults don’t understand how business works. As an organization grows and invests more they’re going to want to protect their product/investment. Can’t have talent competing everywhere whenever risking injury, thus a contract.

Always stay together guys because you all pullers together with Engin and you Ray makes this Sport awesome and so exciting to watch because the energy is amazing guys!! Lots of love

There are no writen official rules, what are you talking about? Prepare universal rules for everybody(even Ermes said that to Engin on his podcast) and dont do arbritary decisions

The reason there like WAF/IFA/WAL/PAL/ARM WARS ect ect is the same reason WWE/AWE/NEW JAPAN ect ect is there different promotions simply because. Everybody want control on the sport and have their own rankings and rules and ofcourse profits.its money and control thats why there will never agree to give it up to one person or one company. Power and money corrupt people and even sports.

Man, i don't agree with anyone about everything. Do I agree with some of the stuff Engin has done? absolutely not. I respect what Engin has done. It takes all type to make the world go around. My lesson in the last year has been tolerance!

coach ray looking massive

I agree with almost everything you said. However, here you make it sound like it was just some minor disagreement that created IFA. There were issues that were debated for years. Corruption for instance. Final straw was when some countries were not allowed to speak in WAF meetings anymore. Having unity in sport is important but at some point, dictatorship just goes too far. It would be best for armwrestling if every country just ditches WAF and joins IFA.

We need a more support for the North American Arm Wrestling Federation. There's no incentive for people to become professional Arm Wrestlers.

He listens to haters, then he bans them 😅

Who is actually banning though. Waf pal, ifa. There all groups of people. Who is actually doing the bans and it's there a list of who is banned. Is this why we don't see yorden and EvsW. He is great and should be competing with the best of them.

Мужчина ты по русски тоже говоришь?

Okay I understand that if you're in one League you can't compete in another league but to ban somebody from doing a podcast that's ridiculous

With how much EvW pours into the event, I understand there being contracts provided they are reasonable. But if it turns into what WAL / Mazurenko used to do pre-pandemic I'll stop supporting them. But I don't see that at all. If anything it looks like some other promoters are trying to chop off part of EvW (remember Affliction in UFC?) and Engin is protecting his baby. You can either work with EvW or you can try to be sneaky and go behind people's backs and steal matches. But one of those options is going to get your promotion blacklisted.

I don’t see the point of EvW being affiliated with WAF

You spoke about rules!!. Ok we need rules yes but RULES have to be WRITTEN!! not SAID !! WHERE ARE THE RULES?? Did anybody ever see any written rule??? I haven't. So basically if there are non written rules everyone can do as they please....as Engin is clearly doing.

Huge problem is that the official sport organization are not even paying to athletes so engin is doing giving a hope and chance to build a pro league even when i dont like all he does ...the others organizations are not real doing nothing to make professional where athletes can get pay or real treatmemt regarding most of those guys dont make a living from it so they could simply quit because they earns are coming from something else ..

EvW is without a doubt the best thing to happen to armwrestling, but the narrative of Engin not making money has to stop. He should make money, there's nothing wrong with that, but stop pretending he is doing all of it for nothing. He benefits from EvW just like the competitors if not more. Again, that's perfectly fine and he deserves it. Someone just needs to be honest about it. Nobody would care about hearing Engin making money growing the sport.

i think you and ppl like engin are missing something very important , east vs west is much bigger than waf and will only continue to grow a bigger devide , east vs west and king of the table have the power not waf you just need to put the foot down and not bend to them not like waf champ means anything anymore either way (tested event meanwhile everyone on roids, its a joke). and on the multiple matches in diff classes , how can you have a champion for more classes than one but you are not allowed to compete in more than one class? hello? see the contridiction?

I dont understand. If you are EvW athlete, why would you care about any other league? If you play in NBA, you wouldn’t be mad about not being able to play in EuroLeague. Stupid people.

I don’t personally know one of the promoters but I see what they post on Facebook in their own discussions I’m part of and somehow this individual is ALWAYS the victim… I’ve been in the group for 2 years and seen no less than 20 posts about how this person doesn’t do anything wrong and people just don’t want him and his promotion to succeed. Now I don’t know what’s going on with this guy but just the laws of probability dictate that you’re doing something douchey too if this many people don’t like you. Seems like there’s a lot of jealously towards Engin even tho he outworks all these dudes

Private armwrestling is the way Waf and ifa are history

I don’t see anything wrong with contracts, the promotion needs to protect itself from being cannibalized and protect the value of its champions. Most other major sports organizations do the same (UFC, NFL, et al. ). I also don’t necessarily see an issue with not being allowed to qualify under more than one weight division. That’s reasonable considering that it could potentially limit the availability of opportunities for other athletes… What really doesn’t sit right with me is this WAF vs IFA nonsense and how it has bled over to the world of professional AW at the highest level. It all seems like political Tammany hall bs that I wish was absent from the conversation. If these two organizations want to have a 🍆 measuring contest in the amateurs, that’s one thing… but to have the agenda of the actors in this conflict affect the athletes just seems wrong. I don’t have any skin in this game though so 🤷🏻‍♂️. As far as what Engin has done for the sport with EvW, it’s nothing short of phenomenal. We’re lucky to have him.

Sarah who ???

Nobody is perfect, no rules are perfect, can't make everyone happy. But, Engin has impressed me with what he's done for arm wrestling. As a person I am not an Engin fan, but, as an arm wrestler, I am very thankful for him and wish him the best.

Very small community and a lot toxicity as I see plus I think is just few armwrestlers in the world making a living only and only from the sport and who make living of it had past jobs or bussiness not even relate to armwrestling ...this will end whem become professional sport without this organizations trying control people but without providing enough money to make a living

It's understandable that athletes will leach to whatever organization brings the most money, that doesn't mean money justify everything, also "rules are rules" is the dumbest argument. The reason you're tired is because something called cognitive dissonance, you know engin and waf are full of shit but at the same time they got you by the balls.

One side totalitarism and comunism isn’t the best option for the armwrestling!

Okay, but for me, I don't think this is the only real problem and also not why WAF becomes a problem. What about the people form Bulgaria that was banned? It had nothing to do with this, what I remember is that there was corruption, in the distribution of the winning fee from WAF. You know what I am talking about one of the banned guys what at EvW 12, he was in the after pull he must be a WAF gold winner. Plamend Dimitrov I think. But also, local tournaments where people want tournaments but WAF was not making any seems to also make you banned, I hope its only IFA but I am not that sure. To me its only National titles that should make sense for WAF, but no we have to put a stick in the wheel for every local thing and ruin the future of some random athletes. I am under WAF, but to me it just seems to be we can so wee will remove flexibility to show who is boss, it works but saying "rules are rules" is stupid talk. States, university's also have "rules are rules" that have no reason to be the way they are and would work better with more flexibility. But it is easier from them to just say "rules are rules" On the same time IFA seems to do the same banning thing some places.

Credit to Engin but no rules apply for Devon. How long has he held up a division on a fantasy dream to be dual SHW and HW Champion for a dumb documentary which now has to be re written.....

The argument "rules are rules" is correct and those rules should be changed, the whole exclusivity just hurts the sport. Especially not allowing athletes to fight in multiple classes above their ( i think everyone wants to see a smaller guy go up and win)

I think EvW is great! And I like that actually started listening to us. In the beginning it seemed like he took even suggestions as “hate”. Now it seems he distinguishes between constructive criticism and all the other crap.

rayzi what about kamil and his cheating shoulder press? this needs adressing urgently. he cheated and always has his shoulder fully turned inwards before the go. this is not ok