Andy, really interesting video. I’ve been playing a bit more with my Force, XR18, and external synths recently and noticed quite a bit of latency between the metronome coming out of Force and the external synths. As I understand the internals of the Force and MPC, they basically have a main board (CPU etc.) and an audio interface board. The latter is set up as a default USB audio interface, and can be substituted for an external USB audio interface via settings. Which is to say, from the main board’s perspective, any audio interface (whether the internal one or the external one) looks like a USB audio interface to the main board. The test you ran clearly shows that the latency is lower with UMC404 than the internal interface. In terms of how much latency you might see with any given interface, there’s at least two components involved: the latency of the audio interface itself, and the latency of the main board processing the audio. Which is to say, the ~8ms you are seeing with your UMC404 might be as fast as it gets - maybe 2ms from the audio interface and a flat 6ms from the main board processing (just making up numbers here). But if my made-up 6ms is as fast as the main board can get, then that may be the floor for latency on Force no matter which audio interface you end up using.
Excellent comment, thanks that’s really helpful! I wanted to test a few interfaces to see if something like that was going on, but the only other ones I have turned out not to be class compliant so I couldn’t do it. What you say makes a lot of sense, I think the best thing Akai could to is introduce some sort of latency compensation like a DAW has. The latency definitely makes the audio inputs less useful than they could be as anything other than a sampling source…
the e-rm multiclock solves this issue pretty well. its expensive yes, but if you have multiple sequencers running it allows you to shift the midi timing both negative and positive on 4 midi ports. if you are combining sequencers with a pc setup it allso offers a solution by using one of your audio interfaces input to sync up with the multiclock via a vst.
It’s audio latency that’s the problem in this instance, but I suppose you could try erm to apply delay to the internal instruments? Not sure how that would work, but it’s essentially not an midi problem, but an audio issue.
@@eturnigy They are clock synced, but the Syntakt audio is behind the Force. It’s nothing to do with midi, in the video the latency halves when using an interface, with no change to the midi setup. Internal Force instruments send audio ‘straight out’ whereas external instrument audio has to come in, then go out. This round trip takes fractionally longer, and it’s what causes the input latency in this case. The only way to fix it is to reduce the round trip time, or introduce an amount of delay to the internal instruments so they are in sync with the external signal.
@@eturnigy Just so I can record it to Force’s arranger. I like to record live jams like that, but if I’m using the Syntakt to make a ‘proper’ track, I’ll use it with Overbridge in Ableton to get multi track audio. It’s just a performance thing with Force!
I often wonder if Akai put out a newer revision of the Force at some point? If they did, I must have that version... because I do not have nearly as much latency issues using the internal soundcard on my unit. I also have fewer bugs compared to other folks on the fb group, which I always thought was strange. Anyways, what a fantasticly interesting and useful video, thank you:)
Mine is quite an early model so that’s definitely possible, I know there are some that have a different sticker on them but not sure if that means they are different internally? Glad the video was interesting, thanks for watching!
I agree with you! I was actually looking out for a comment that probably talk about this. I play the keys and record directly in Force, and I definitely don’t have it as bad as in this video. In fact, the reason I record more with Force is because I can’t bring down the latency on my Ableton setup to sub 5ms.
I agree there should be a feature added to allow you to adjust the amount. Most interfaces do offer a way to reduce it. That 15secs is so minimal to my ears that it just doesn’t bother me. Which means everything else I have must have a much longer delay for me to complain about it.
Your vids are great mate. Not sure if anyone has asked you but what's your thoughts on the new push 3. I'm not a huge user of Ableton but love my force. I just wanted to see what you were thinking on it.
Looks like a lovely device, but it’s not for me. From what I understand it doesn’t have an arranger in standalone, and you can’t create macros in standalone either. Those are two of the features I use most on Force so I’m not tempted by it. After a few firmware updates for the P3 that might change of course, but I wouldn’t drop £2k on it now!
@@adrianmccombe625 I've played with both, and I recommend you try a Push2 before going for a 2k box. Abelton is amazing, I love it, but the Pushes are limited in their functionality i.e.features great for playing out, but not for producing - you need get in the box for that. Chopping on the Force/MPC is so much better in all ways apart from time-stretching. I would wait a few years for the development of the p3 to catch up. It has the potential to be amazing.. And on the subject of latency, there have been some early bugs, but it's got ADAT I/0, so latency is defined by the quality of your interface.
Do you know if the Forces USB out latency is longer than the analogue out? I've just found out that the M+ adds between 12-16ms when using a USB interface for the output (where as the analogue output is about 3.5ms) - this scuppers my latest plan for my rig, as finger drumming becomes even harder than normal.
I haven’t measured the output but input latency is about 11ms so I’d imagine it would be the same. I think the only way round this sort of issue is to make your own latency compensation with a hack like this: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZLNW-mHe3fI.htmlsi=DD-AltfZr-D63X2H
@@MaxipokMusic For sequenced stuff, offsets are great (I apply them in my programable 'Midihub'), but offsets not so useful for live hand to ear timing, needs
@@mrrafsk Nope, I’ve not been organised enough to pull a set together yet. I’m still trying to get Korg to send me the new Kaoss Replay as I’d like to build a set with that and Force!
I haven’t tried that, it’s a good shout. If I’m working on a proper project, I normally route all the internal instruments to a sub mix and put the delay on that, which sorts them all out in one go. Works quite nicely…
You’d have to apply the latency to Force’s internal instruments only, to match the audio interface latency for external instruments. Is that what you’re thinking? Another way to do that would be to move your midi notes over by the latency’s worth of ticks on tracks that the Force is using to drive internal instruments.
@@MaxipokMusic that makes sense if you want to add latency to the audio - I was proposing a solution for midi latency. On audio latency: after you’ve tracked the audio into the Force, do you leave the delay hack in place? Or just pull back the audio tracks back by the latency amount to bring everything into alignment?
@@spindlenine If I’m making a RU-vid video I tend to just record the master out and give that a polish in Ozone. If I’m making a ‘proper’ track I record the external instrument into a Tascam recorder and combine with Force in Ableton. A very knowledgeable chap just told me that the Force internal interface is locked to 192 sample buffer, and external ones are locked to 128, so external has inherently less latency but any difference between various models can only be down to A/D conversion which is likely tiny, so you were absolutely right…
